Emotions are the path

[manitou]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

And hey .... I live out in the country .... if you ever come on holidays down here , I INSIST the first thing you do is come here .... I will have my outside speaker system set up , the amp ready to go and the solar batteries fully charged  ...... at dawn .

 

 

 

but do you have a record player??

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Lairg said:

It may be useful to develop experiments to test hypotheses.

 

 

 

Was that an invitation to experiment on you ?

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

but do you have a record player??

 

 

I got an 8 track in the back seat of my Cadillac ...

 

yeah, yeah .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

19 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Was that an invitation to experiment on you ?

 

Since most of the human is not physical there are many experiments possible to test beliefs

 

 

 

 

[manitou]

10 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Since most of the human is not physical there are many experiments possible to test beliefs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'Most' being 99.9999999999999% space 

[stirling]

19 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

"After this comes the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations"--I think it's clear that Beru Khyentze Rinpoche was referring to a singular experience, not the nature of mind.

 

He would be wrong then. In the Dzogchen path the rigpa/clear light/luminosity is introduced to the student at the earliest point in practice that makes sense... sometimes in the first few minutes. Clear light/luminosity is an available experience to an enlightened being in ANY moment. That means that it is also available to YOU, IF you know what you are looking for. A good teacher should provide an "introduction the nature of mind" so that you can begin to find it in your daily life.

 

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The unique feature of the Dzogchen approach is that right from the beginning you make the experience of clear light itself manifest, almost as if it were something tangible – a direct, bare experience of clear light. ^[1]

In Dzogchen, on the basis of the clear light itself, the way in which the clear light abides is made vivid and certain by the aspect of rigpa or knowing. This is free from any overlay of delusion and from any corrupting effect, due to conceptual thoughts, that will inhibit the experience of clear light. ^[2]

 

 

 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Clear_light

 

It is worth considering whether this is possible for those from other traditions. I personally think this is a clear benefit of the Dzogchen approach that should be more universally used. Mahayana and Vajrayana assume that you are ALREADY a Buddha, but simply do not realize your Buddha nature. A simple introduction to your nature as a Buddha could be enough to make you realize your already extant enlightenment. 

 

The ONLY difference between seeing clear light at death, etc. is possibly the depth at which it is seen, though the possibility of an experience at a deeper level is always there. 

 

19 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Yes, you're right, no-self:
 

Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

(MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society Vol III p 68)

 

OK good. Yes, this COULD be a dharma gate, but it would be only one of COUNTLESS gates. Which gate you will enter through is not up to you, of course.

 

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Beings are numberless; I vow to free them.

Delusions are inexhaustible; I vow to end them.

Dharma gates are boundless; I vow to enter them.

The buddha way is unsurpassable; I vow to embody it.

- Fourfold Boddhisattva Vow

 

 

 

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The old catch-22--can't arrive at perfect wisdom before abandoning latent conceits, can't abandon latent conceits without having perfect wisdom.  

 

In my experience it is more about dropping as many conceits as possible. If the remaining ones are not great obscurations for you it is possible you may see through the remaining ones and they drop off after realization. Good news, eh?

 

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I would contend that the "one-pointed" mind is not stationary.  

 

In Shikantaza/Dzogchen the mind drops away and isn't present at all when absorbed. Next time you sit and your mind is quiet and empty have a look. 

 

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I'm guessing you meant to say, "is enlightenment in many traditions".  For the sixth patriarch in China, evidently it was this line from the Diamond Sutra that opened his eyes:

 

Let the mind be present without an abode.
 

(Translation Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from “The Rabbit’s Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra”, Buddha’s Light Publishing pg. 60)

 

 

Indeed. Mind without an abode is a lovely non-dual statement of things. If mind has no abode it everywhere - "empty" of self-nature. It has dropped away. I love the Diamond Cutter sutra. I first read it in my late teens and threw the book it was in across the room. The continual setting up of something you can hold onto and then constant negation made me feel crazy! 

 

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My mistake, I meant tangka (thangka).  

 

Very good sir. Thank you.

 

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Dwelling on the nature of self might result in a stationing of consciousness, no?

 

Unless done from the vantage of Open Awareness/shikantaza/Dzogchen, possibly. 

 

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I look to "an experience of the choiceless placement of attention in the movement of breath, a placement that is marked by the cessation of volition in the activity of the body and a feeling of freedom" (I'm quoting myself here ). 

 

If you are choosing the meditation object, how does the meditation become choiceless? Choiceless awareness happens when all objects are dropped in my experience. 

 

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I'd say Gautama had it right when he said, "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind", but there's an interesting bit of anatomy that comes into play, a bit that I think Feldenkrais put his finger on. 

 

IMHO he means chucking all of the "selfing" processes you can and getting the mind closer and closer to emptiness itself. I sit this way occasionally when uncomfortable, noticing where the body is uncomfortable and dropping both tension AND contrived thoughts where they might be arising, or "liberating" as they say in Dzogchen. In absolute terms it is dropping all contriving of sensory phenomena (including mind amongst the sense doors) so there is just unlabeled sensation arising and passing. 

 

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That's the real subject of my post-to-be, I'll provide a link if I ever get it right (using a ouija board instead of a typewriter, takes a little time). 

 

Looking forward to it! Get that planchette moving! 

 

[stirling]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:48 PM, Lairg said:

The personal will forces the human to get its act together - to protect the self-esteem of the personal will.   It hates to be wrong.

 

As the human approaches first stage enlightenment the personal will is brought under control and moves from defense to creativity - in the cases I have observed

 

With a few clarifications of terminology I could agree with that. 

[stirling]

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

Errrmmmm .   Sorta  Thelemite .  I was curious about it, followed along for a bit but rejected a lot of its interpretation . As time went on, I saw some of its essential principles in other things so I accepted them as valid .  ( I dont like to accept things when I cant see a reflection in 'nature' -  and that includes macro and micro levels , eg 'cosmology', physics, etc .  Otherwise, nearly all the time, they are some type of aberrant ' human mind trip' ) .

 

What do you think about the Holy Guardian Angel summoning bit? Any experience with that? If yes, I may message you if you are amenable to satisfy some curiosity. This is not a trick question. 

 

100% agree that one should be able to experiment with belief systems and have them actually yield some results. 

 

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

Through the last few decades ( and up to about 8 years ago ) I had the opportunity to learn about Australian Aboriginal 'shamanism' , but each time , I had 'business' in the western initiation tradition, so it was defrayed ( I probably was not ready for that anyway ) . Eventually, reaching the 'hermit' level and 'retiring' , that world reopened to me .  Surprise surprise, things 'in there' where 'similar principles.    Also, a lot of the western hermetic tradition particularly Thelema  seems sourced from an ancient form of Zoroastrianism ( I have posts on all this stuff scattered about )  ... so in a way , lets say I am a ' Neo- Zoroastrian Thelemite  .......  *   '    

 

I understand this kind of thing. It is hard to end up entirely the product of one tradition as a Westerner in the last 60 years or so. 

 

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

'Magic' and its operation is a very different thing now for me  .

 

* My teacher would introduce me to others as a 'white cleverman * '  .    I hesitate to use the word as it might give the wrong impression That does not mean I am a white person that is an Aboriginal cleverman , NO  !  It means I am  a 'cleverman' in white esoteric traditions  .... although they have seen me 'do magic'  ... they get a bit freaked out , but teacher would laugh at it .   

Eg

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think I am sometimes an 'animist' much more so than them ... they chuckle when I talk to wild animals and even more so to 'inanimate objects ; One takes up a chainsaw to cut a pole end off . Another ' Dont bother, that bastard will not start , we tried everything. "  The other : " No , no ... its been to chainsaw shop , paid a heap of money, all good now,  Kenny started it up in the shop, it went fine ."

 <pulls the  handle >   blub blub blub ..... again and again .... adjusts the choke, the brake bar ..... blub-blub , blub-blub  ...

 

" YOU ****** ARSEHOLE OF A ******** THING , YOU LITTLE TURD .... That ******* white bastard ripped us off .... *&%!X   (and so on ) "  The other join in

Me :  " Hang on, dont talk to him like that . "  I get down on a knee pat the chainsaw   and "Awwww, poor little fellah , everyone talk bad to you . But I won't . <give it a little pat and a caress > You are nice little chainsaw aren't you ... you'll start for me ."

 

The looks I got !   Teacher is starting to smirk .

 

One  soft gentle pull .... Brooom  ruummm rummmmm .... " There you go boys . " and go to hand it over  .   They are incredulous, abusive , walking away  or gawping at me . Teacher is   shaking his head doing facepalm . " 

 

 

 

Thing is  ( I reckon )  'you got magic in your blood '  ( one's genetic or traditional roots )  ' and you get magic from where you live' .

 

Great story! 

[Mark Foote]

27 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The ONLY difference between seeing clear light at death, etc. is possibly the depth at which it is seen, though the possibility of an experience at a deeper level is always there. 

 

 

Let me point out that you are speaking of seeing, and Beru Khyentze Rinpoche was talking about experiencing.  

I may have seen it, but it's still something I experience in falling asleep (and in waking up).

 

27 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Indeed. Mind without an abode is a lovely non-dual statement of things. If mind has no abode it everywhere - "empty" of self-nature. It has dropped away.

 

The mind that has no abode is the mind that moves.  Like the sixth patriarch said:

 

“Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving.”

 

 

The mind that moves is the singular location of this awareness in space, but everything enters into the locating.
 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(Genjo Koan, Dogen, tr Tanahashi)

 

The "actualizing" is Feldenkrais's "automatic movement"!

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, stirling said:

I love the Diamond Cutter sutra. I first read it in my late teens and threw the book it was in across the room. The continual setting up of something you can hold onto and then constant negation made me feel crazy! 

It's a throw-away as far as I'm concerned, too, except for that one line that the wood cutter got gob-smacked by.
 

27 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

If you are choosing the meditation object, how does the meditation become choiceless? Choiceless awareness happens when all objects are dropped in my experience. 

 

Aye, therein lies the rub! 

"Making self surrender the object of thought, (one) lays hold of concentration, (one) lays hold of single-pointedness" (SN v 198, PTS vol V p 174).  How does one lay hold of "single-pointedness"?  Through relaxation and calm, allowing every particle of the body to enter into the placement of attention in the movement of breath (and in the further states, every contact of sense, even the contact of sense with things outside the range of the senses).  

At some moment, the placement can become choiceless, and the activity of the body in the movement of breath automatic/effortless.  There's a sense of freedom. 

My experience, both sitting and on the dance floor.  Or when the occasion arises--anywhere, anytime--surprise!

 

 

27 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

... I sit this way occasionally when uncomfortable, noticing where the body is uncomfortable and dropping both tension AND contrived thoughts where they might be arising, or "liberating" as they say in Dzogchen. In absolute terms it is dropping all contriving of sensory phenomena (including mind amongst the sense doors) so there is just unlabeled sensation arising and passing. 

 

If you think that you have some difficulty in some part of your body, then the rest of the body should help the part that is in difficulty. You are not having difficulty with some part of your body, but the part of the body is having difficulty: for example, your mudra is having difficulty. Your whole body should help your mudra do zazen.

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican, http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber Project/lectures/wholebodyzazen.html])

 

 

27 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Looking forward to it! Get that planchette moving! 

 

Thanks, Stirling.  I really appreciate the inspiration that our dialogues have provided me.  

By the way--something that might interest you.  I always try to use first-person when I write.  I find that the use of any other pronoun leads me away from my real audience--ha ha!  

Damn.  Dropped the planchette in the compost bucket...

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Since most of the human is not physical there are many experiments possible to test beliefs

 

 

 

 

 

Have you ever clearly answered a question put to you ?

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

What do you think about the Holy Guardian Angel summoning bit? Any experience with that? If yes, I may message you if you are amenable to satisfy some curiosity. This is not a trick question. 

 

I talked a bit about it in my post in this thread page 13  (no post numbering here ) . I have a few posts and threads on the subject on site ( good luck with the search engine here !  ) . basically the HGA concept seems adopted from  Zoroastrian Khvarenah concept and angels generally  from one understanding of 'yazata' .

 

Thats the concept . The 'summoning is a different thing.  I have never heard of that before .   It should already be present . Its more of a 'knowing' , coming to know , a revealing or illumination .   One could try invocation ( which is sorta like summoning )  to get 'clearer access' .

 

Yes I have posts on this too, extensive and with some imagery  scattered about , again, good luck with the search engine .

 

But I am amenable  to satisfy some of your curiosity if you want to PM me .

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

100% agree that one should be able to experiment with belief systems and have them actually yield some results. 

 

I dont really see the need for any type of system that does not yield some results  .  belief systems are an interesting one ! Many years back I started studying Comparative Religion at university , the first few lectures  where all about belief . That did not go down well , a very high drop out rate . I asked the lecturer about that and he said it was normal .

 

Its a curious topic ; once a guy got modded here for going nuts on me  because I stated I believed  that we are all  generated by the Dreaming of a huge  python curled up under Uluru in the center of Australia asleep and dreaming in water that came down from space  ( I didnt mind he went off at me , I was trying to lead him to an illumination )  . He was reminded to accept peoples beliefs .  But during his incredulous outbursts I kept reminding him, "Well, that's my belief ." not  " Well,  that is my   belief ! " . Eventually someone understood and asked me 'Okay then, how do you   think creation really  came about ? "

 

Me : " Oh that .... I would have clue about that . "     - its all belief or supposition or theory .

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

I understand this kind of thing. It is hard to end up entirely the product of one tradition as a Westerner in the last 60 years or so. 

 

At one stage , after completion  and integration of the stage before ,  many seemingly disparate  and unconnected experiences, knowledge and skills came together in my life .... chaos began to form the big picture that this jig-saw puzzle was revealing .  As time goes on, it happens in a larger arena .... the many different traditions hold essential similar information and techniques, adapted  via different 'cultural clothing ' .

 

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Great story! 

 

I'm a sneaky bugger  (or should we say Mercury encompasses the 'trickster' as well .

 

Spoiler

Some of the ' Nephs ' (nephews) ' *     :  "  Next time  you go down the river  keep going past the shoot ( like a natural stone water slide ) , through the rapids, go across the pool and around the corner , good rapids there for your river body surfing . "

 

Me:  " Yeah sure ... and end up right in the middle of the mission ! "    ( not a good idea for an unknown  person to suddenly appear unannounced and unaccompanied   ... ie  the boys where trying to pull a dirty trick on me  ) .

 

Shocked looks :   " How can you know that ? " .... " You haven't been here before , how you know that . "   suspicious looks all around ...  magic afoot ?  They where  a bit spooked by that  .... but not 'Uncle'  ; he gives me the 'penetrating eye '  ;  " How  did you know that ? "

 

" Oh .... I checked this place out before I came   ................    on   google earth . "   

 

Here is another good one ; Aboriginal guy arguing with me , he keeps breaking into his native tongue as he gets amped up .He was insisting something was true that I doubted ;  " NO  !  It  IS true ..... yugogooglebro ! "

 

me;  "What ? "

 

" Yogogooglebro !  "

 

"I'm sorry I dont know that word , what is it in English ?"

 

" What ! ?   It IS English  yougogooglebro ! "

 

....  Oooooh !   You go google , bro !     - go look it up on google .   

 

*  Here is one of the Nephs, Luke   ......    'stone age stuff !  '   ; 

 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Was that an invitation to experiment on you ?

 

You may experiment on whomever you wish.  Just be careful to be polite.

 

Reversing energy flows is a standard defence - usually non-karmic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Lairg

[Nungali]

" Excellent ." 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

I wouldn't experiment with the king of down-under

 

 

[stirling]

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

Let me point out that you are speaking of seeing, and Beru Khyentze Rinpoche was talking about experiencing.  

I may have seen it, but it's still something I experience in falling asleep (and in waking up).

 

It isn't a unique thing to notice that only happens at particular times. It is synonymous with the term "luminosity" if you are familiar with it. "Clear light"/luminosity is a feature of moment-to-moment emptiness as witnessed once pointing out instructions are given, and an obvious feature of things where there is Satori. If you have had introduction to the nature of mind and understood what you are looking at, you have seen it. 

 

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The unique feature of the Dzogchen approach is that right from the beginning you make the experience of clear light itself manifest, almost as if it were something tangible – a direct, bare experience of clear light. ^[1]

In Dzogchen, on the basis of the clear light itself, the way in which the clear light abides is made vivid and certain by the aspect of rigpa or knowing. This is free from any overlay of delusion and from any corrupting effect, due to conceptual thoughts, that will inhibit the experience of clear light. ^[2]

 

 

 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Clear_light

 

In this section of this article on "Pointing out (the nature of mind) instructions where the two methods for manifesting ("seeing") clear light are discussed, (the gradual path and the sudden realization)

 

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According to the Dalai Lama in The Gelug/Kagyü Tradition of Mahamudra:

 

The Kagyu system refers to those who manifest clear light mind by relying on the methods for penetrating vital points of the external and internal body as those who progress through graded stages of methods. Such practitioners manifest clear light mind by progressing through stages. Those with sharp faculties, however, may be practitioners for whom everything happens at once.

 

The Nyingma tradition of dzogchen also distinguishes between these two types of practitioners.

 

Those who manifest rigpa, pure awareness, by training through stages involving various practices with the energy-winds, tummo, and so forth are those who progress through graded stages, while those for whom everything happens at once achieve the same by relying solely on meditation on a nonconceptual state of mental consciousness without the practices of the energy channels and energy-winds.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing-out_instruction

 

This second "meditation on a nonconceptual state of mental consciousness" is precisely the same practice as shikantaza. 

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

The mind that has no abode is the mind that moves.  Like the sixth patriarch said:

 

“Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving.”

 

Appearances in consciousness are in constant motion. What they are moving on top of emptiness (Rigpa/Mind/God/Self/Dharmakaya), in the same way that a fountain is constantly outpouring, but its source is still, OR like a film you watch is full of movement but the underlying screen underneath isn't actually moving at all. That which moves is illusory as a separate thing, is still. There is no-thing to move. When mind has no abode it is because it does not belong to a "self" it is everywhere/empty. 

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

(Genjo Koan, Dogen, tr Tanahashi)

 

Actualizing the fundamental point is being enlightened NOW. Enlightened mind, and the mind in shikantaza are the same, only it is possible that realization isn't present. 

 

As Robert Thurman once said in a discussion group I attended: Enough with all of this practicing, we need more ACTUALIZING! Practicing happens whenever you sit, actualizing happens NOW and EVERWHERE, with no person, time, or space accomplishing it. 

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

The "actualizing" is Feldenkrais's "automatic movement"!

 

Too contrived, in my opinion. This idea that there are steps or procedures is silly. See above. 

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

It's a throw-away as far as I'm concerned, too, except for that one line that the wood cutter got gob-smacked by.

 

Oh, I don't mean I think it is a throw away at all. I mean that, as a teenager, I found it frustrating because it gives the reader to place to rest. I see it now as a fantastic negation of all of the relative ideas we tend to cobble together trying to understand the reality of things, and how we are off the mark with every one of them. It is an amazing exposition on no-self and emptiness, surely one the greatest statements on the non-dual nature of reality. Top 10 material for sure. If you read it and your mind can't rest, things are going well. Better to have it read to you in meditation. 

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

"Making self surrender the object of thought, (one) lays hold of concentration, (one) lays hold of single-pointedness" (SN v 198, PTS vol V p 174).  How does one lay hold of "single-pointedness"?  Through relaxation and calm, allowing every particle of the body to enter into the placement of attention in the movement of breath (and in the further states, every contact of sense, even the contact of sense with things outside the range of the senses).  

 

At some moment, the placement can become choiceless, and the activity of the body in the movement of breath automatic/effortless.  There's a sense of freedom. 

 

This is definitely Soto Zen basic training. Watch the breath, it drops out there is Choiceless Awareness/Shikantaza. Then your thoughts get going again in accordance with the level of your training/insight.

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

If you think that you have some difficulty in some part of your body, then the rest of the body should help the part that is in difficulty. You are not having difficulty with some part of your body, but the part of the body is having difficulty: for example, your mudra is having difficulty. Your whole body should help your mudra do zazen.

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican, http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber Project/lectures/wholebodyzazen.html])

 

Mind with a small (m). 

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

Thanks, Stirling.  I really appreciate the inspiration that our dialogues have provided me.

 

I feel the same. Finding new ways to express work with these ideas is helpful.

 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

By the way--something that might interest you.  I always try to use first-person when I write.  I find that the use of any other pronoun leads me away from my real audience--ha ha!

 

Not sure what you are driving at. Explain a little more?

[Mark Foote]

14 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The "actualizing" is Feldenkrais's "automatic movement"!

 

Too contrived, in my opinion. This idea that there are steps or procedures is silly. See above. 

 

What about "when you find your place where you are", and "when you find your way at this moment"--these are the actionable efforts, are they not?

The sources you've offered strike me as odd, in that they cite, for example, a work by the Dalai Lama, but the material is not offered in quotes.  I'm left to assume that someone is summarizing and interpreting what the Dalai Lama wrote or said.  Why not tell me what the Dalai Lama wrote or said, in quotes, with the source of the quotes (and even a page number, perhaps)? 

Until I have the quotes, I have to assume that there's a good chance someone has made their own interpretation of what the Dalai Lama (and others) had to say--"own interpretation" meaning, mis-interpretation.

That's the whole thing, in what I write.  The more I am in concert with the actual texts, and the ones that are considered the most historically reliable, the better my practice.  I have to fact-check myself, no one else is going to do it.  That's been my experience, so I work at it. 

I think somewhere that was also Gautama's recommendation--that if there was a dispute, the original teaching should be consulted.  There are teachers I trust, but anonymous webpages don't rate, in that regard.

I only study when I have to, old3bob--the Dao Bums makes me do it, ow, it hurts...
 

 

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Oh, I don't mean I think it is a throw away at all. I mean that, as a teenager, I found it frustrating because it gives the reader to place to rest. I see it now as a fantastic negation of all of the relative ideas we tend to cobble together trying to understand the reality of things, and how we are off the mark with every one of them. It is an amazing exposition on no-self and emptiness, surely one the greatest statements on the non-dual nature of reality. Top 10 material for sure. If you read it and your mind can't rest, things are going well. Better to have it read to you in meditation. 

 

I remember head-trips, on entheogens.  Weird jet noises in the background, too.  I'm not signing on.

 

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Mind with a small (m). 

 

Mind with a big "M", maybe with a big "B" too--"Big Mind", make a lot of money, like Dennis!  Yes, I'm a tad cynical.  I know Suzuki used "big mind" a lot (because Chadwick told me so, and I trust him).

Let's see here:
 

We say, you know, when you eat you should eat. When you sleep, you should sleep [laughs]. That is the big mind, that is selflessness. And best way to get rid of small mind is just to, you know, sleep when you should sleep. Just get up when you should get up, without hesitation. Do you understand?
 

(cuke.com, 69-08-18, http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber Project/lectures/srl-excerpt-big-mind.html)
 

 

And the full story, from the "Zen Letters" of Yuanwu, translated by the Clearys:

 

Layman Pang was with his whole family sitting around the fire. Layman Pang suddenly said, ‘Difficult, difficult–ten bushels of oil hemp spread out on a tree.’ Mrs. Pang said, ‘Easy, easy–on the tips of the hundred grasses, the meaning of Zen.’ Their daughter Lingzhao said, ‘Not difficult, not easy–eating when hungry, sleeping when tired’.

Usually when I relate this story to people, most of them prefer Lingzhao’s remark for saving energy, and dislike what Old Man Pang and Old Lady Pang said about difficult and easy. This is nothing but ‘making interpretations by following the words’. People who think like this are far from getting to the root of the fundamental design.

 

(“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, trans. Cleary & Cleary, pg 41)
 

 

Quote

 

By the way--something that might interest you.  I always try to use first-person when I write.  I find that the use of any other pronoun leads me away from my real audience--ha ha!

Not sure what you are driving at. Explain a little more?

 

"Not sure what you are driving at"--"I'm not picking up on what's being implied here.  Maybe with an example?"  Ha ha!

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

emotion is (or can be) rocket fuel...

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by old3bob

[steve]

19 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

What about "when you find your place where you are", and "when you find your way at this moment"--these are the actionable efforts, are they not?

 

No, I would say they are not.

 

The words can certainly be interpreted as either engaging intention and effort  or not engaging intention and effort. Words have no absolute or inherent meaning. They have definitions but people supply the meaning. And when we are talking about words written in a defunct language 500 years after they were uttered and then translated into at least two other languages prior to translation into English… well then being attached to the words has questionable value IMO.

 

I don’t think the meaning of such instructions is to exert effort or intention to find something. It is more about discovering something that is already always there, one’s true nature, one’s “place.” It’s similar to waking up from sleep. Is there intention or effort involved waking? One simply finds oneself awake. It is a bit like that. But of course that is only my interpretation.

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, steve said:

 

No, I would say they are not.

 

The words can certainly be interpreted as either engaging intention and effort  or not engaging intention and effort. Words have no absolute or inherent meaning. They have definitions but people supply the meaning. And when we are talking about words written in a defunct language 500 years after they were uttered and then translated into at least two other languages prior to translation into English… well then being attached to the words has questionable value IMO.

 

I don’t think the meaning of such instructions is to exert effort or intention to find something. It is more about discovering something that is already always there, one’s true nature, one’s “place.” It’s similar to waking up from sleep. Is there intention or effort involved waking? One simply finds oneself awake. It is a bit like that. But of course that is only my interpretation.

 

 

One does  ?   Or 'you do' ?    I have awoken like that at times  (maybe, as I am assuming what you mean here about finding oneself awake  )  ..... heavily asleep then .... bing ! Eyes snap open, awake and bright instantly .... spring out of bed !

 

But then there are times when it is a slower process, one is 'trying' to wake up  ( 'one'  , as I have heard others describe or agree with this description )  but seem to be half way through the process and there is some , often unusual , interaction between waking and sleeping consciousness .  If we are dreaming, outside stimulus can effect and warp the dream more .

 

'Illumination' can be like the first process .......  bing !

 

But many that are trying to wake up seem stuck in the second process ....  they are trying to awaken , maybe they are part way there  but they are interpreting things strangely and 'suffering' other indications .... which maybe why in the 'illuminate arts'  we get so many , well ......  nut cases ?

 

Sleeping people are not too hard to manage , just need to be turned every so often, put in an IV , a production line human-robot  job, some shelter and food ... oh, and dont 'disturb' them    .

 

Me ?   Oh, I'm awake !   I just like to take 'Grandpa naps' every so often .

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

What about "when you find your place where you are", and "when you find your way at this moment"--these are the actionable efforts, are they not?

 

It says "when you find" in both cases. It isn't saying "go find" your "place" or "way". No volition implied. The "self" is a delusion... there is ONLY noticing... finding. 

 

Quote

The sources you've offered strike me as odd, in that they cite, for example, a work by the Dalai Lama, but the material is not offered in quotes.  I'm left to assume that someone is summarizing and interpreting what the Dalai Lama wrote or said.  Why not tell me what the Dalai Lama wrote or said, in quotes, with the source of the quotes (and even a page number, perhaps)?

 

There are footnote links. In this case:
 

Quote

Dalai Lama; Berzin, Alexander (1997). The Gelug/Kagyü Tradition of Mahamudra. Ithaca: Snow Lion.

 

I thought you might appreciate a Tenzin Gyatso/Berzin quote, since you were citing something from Berzin. I also found it on Berzin's own site for you:

 

http://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/vajrayana/mahamudra-advanced/a-discourse-on-autocommentary-to-a-root-text-for-mahamudra-the-dalai-lama/mahamudra-the-four-seals-mahamudra-dzogchen

 

Quote

Until I have the quotes, I have to assume that there's a good chance someone has made their own interpretation of what the Dalai Lama (and others) had to say--"own interpretation" meaning, mis-interpretation.

 

Well... I think we have put that one to bed. I hope this is more helpful. 

 

Quote

That's the whole thing, in what I write.  The more I am in concert with the actual texts, and the ones that are considered the most historically reliable, the better my practice.  I have to fact-check myself, no one else is going to do it.  That's been my experience, so I work at it. 

 

Do you work with a lineage teacher with insight? It might help to run some of this by someone like that who can clarify the finer points of your interests. Fact checking yourself can be a dark rabbit hole indeed. I forget where you live, but I might be able to recommend a teacher if you don't have one. Certainly at Kobun's Jikoji I can point you to a couple of fantastic teachers brown robes who are eminently qualified.

 

Quote

I think somewhere that was also Gautama's recommendation--that if there was a dispute, the original teaching should be consulted.  There are teachers I trust, but anonymous webpages don't rate, in that regard.

 

Well, here we agree. But, since I have quoted both the Dalai Lama/Berzin and Sogyal Rinpoche's/Nyingma Tradition's RigpaWiki, created to bring illumination about their core teachings specifically for the clarity of the lineages students, I think we are in safe environs. 

 

Perhaps my experience is in question? I can share it:

 

I started my path in Buddhism in 1991 with the controversial terton Ngakpa Chogyam Rinpoche learning Dzogchen meditation and getting my first pointing out, went to various empowerments and direct teachings with Sogyal Rinpoche when he (and I) lived in London, took refuge with Gyatrul Rinpoche in Oregon, and completed Lojong teachings with him and Lama Bruce Newman (name-checked on one of the Wikipedia pages I have linked), received empowerments and teachings from Lama Zopa Rinpoche, including the Medicine Buddha empowerment with His Holiness, began and finished the Ngondro with Lama Tharchin Rinpoche, and Lama Sonam in the Santa Cruz California area. I received repeated direct pointing at Rigpa as well as Togal and Trekcho instruction from most of these teachers, being able to see and understand Rigpa directly, but without the complete insight. Lama Tharchin died in 2013, and I wasn't that motivated to work with his student Sonam, so I went without a teacher for a few years, carrying on my practice. 

 

In 2015 I had insight/Satori and the next day drove to Jikoji, which was only 30 minutes from my house in the mountains looking for a teacher who could help me. I met Jana Drakka Roshi, herself a brown robe Soto priest, and my insight was recognized. I did weekly meditation, dokusan and the sesshin schedule at Jikoji for 3 years stabilizing my insight and in due course having the pleasure of getting to work with almost all of Kobun's core of dharma transmitted lineage teachers (Angie Boissevain, Michael Newhall, Ian Forsberg, Vanja Palmers and Doug Jacobson), and a number of well-known SF Zen Center alum. After a few years Jana suggested I sew MY robes for ordination (in SF with Blanche Hartman, her teacher) but Jana was soon diagnosed with and succumbed to cancer sadly. I was introduced to my current teacher, Ed Brown's only transmitted student a few months later. She agreed that I should continue sewing After a few years my robes are nearly completed, but rather than normal ordination I will be "lay entrusted" - a roshi, authorized to teach (though I already have been approved to teach and have my own sangha) but not in monastic line, but in the householder tradition, much like ngakpas of the Nyingma tradition like my original interest. 

 

Quote

"Not sure what you are driving at"--"I'm not picking up on what's being implied here.  Maybe with an example?"  Ha ha!

 

Huh. I guess don't make a lot of "I" statements. Makes sense. Sorry?

[Mark Foote]

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

No, I would say they are not.

 

The words can certainly be interpreted as either engaging intention and effort  or not engaging intention and effort. Words have no absolute or inherent meaning. They have definitions but people supply the meaning. And when we are talking about words written in a defunct language 500 years after they were uttered and then translated into at least two other languages prior to translation into English… well then being attached to the words has questionable value IMO.

 

Those words are from Dogen's "Genjo Koan", as translated by Kazuaki Tanahashi (he has several differing translations--this one is here). 

I'm sure you were thinking about the Pali Canon, written down in Pali 500 years after Gautama's demise--in Pali because that's the language the books arrived to Sri Lanka in.  Sorry for the confusion.
 

 

Quote

 

I don’t think the meaning of such instructions is to exert effort or intention to find something. It is more about discovering something that is already always there, one’s true nature, one’s “place.” It’s similar to waking up from sleep. Is there intention or effort involved waking? One simply finds oneself awake. It is a bit like that. But of course that is only my interpretation.

I look to find the place where I am in falling asleep, a lot.  Also in sitting, and on the dance floor.  Begrudgingly, before my coffee in waking up.  Yeah, there is effort in waking up, before coffee and into the first sitting.  Odd times throughout the day and if I wake up, at night, I look to find the place where I am.

Can't really lay hold of that single-pointedness of mind without taking everything into locating the place where I am.  And that, to me, is finding my way at this moment.
 

From a post I'm working on, with everybody's help:
 

Of course, the choiceless placement of attention in the movement of breath happens all the time, although not always consciously.  Zen master Eihei Dogen detailed the contradiction he saw in advocating a practice that’s intended to bring a person to a place that they already know intimately:
 

Fundamentally speaking, the basis of the way is perfectly pervasive; how could it be contingent on practice and verification?  The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally unrestricted; why should we expend sustained effort? Surely the whole being is far beyond defilement; who could believe in a method to polish it? Never is it apart from this very place; what is the use of a pilgrimage to practice it?
 

(Koroku Kukan zazen gi, tr Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation” UC Press 1988 p 175)   

Dogen’s questions are rhetorical, but I nevertheless believe they have an answer:  there’s a particular frailty of the human body that can require practice to overcome.

Moshe Feldenkrais described the reason some people hold their breath for an instant when getting up out of a chair:
 

The tendency to hold one’s breath is instinctive, part of an attempt to prevent the establishment of shearing stresses or forces likely to shift the vertebrae horizontally, out of the vertical alignment of the spinal column that they constitute.
 

(“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 83)

Holding one’s breath retains pressure in the abdomen.  Medical researcher D. L. Bartilink remarked on the utility of a “tensed somatic cavity” in support of the spine: 
 

Animals undoubtedly make an extensive use of the protection of their spines by the tensed somatic cavity, and probably also use it as a support upon which muscles of posture find a hold…
 

(“The Role of Abdominal Pressure in Relieving the Pressure on the Lumbar Intervertebral Discs”, J Bone Joint Surg Br 1957 Nov;39-B(4):718-25. doi: 10.1302/0301-620X.39B4.718. 1957 https://boneandjoint.org.uk/article/10.1302/0301-620X.39B4.718)

 

However, Bartilink noted that pressure in the abdominal cavity need not restrict the diaphragm:
 

… Breathing can go on even when the abdomen is used as a support and cannot be relaxed. 
 

(Ibid)

 

 

Feldenkrais suggested a practice to overcome the tendency to hold the breath...

 

I'd best leave it at that, for now.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I thought you might appreciate a Tenzin Gyatso/Berzin quote, since you were citing something from Berzin. I also found it on Berzin's own site for you:

 

http://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/vajrayana/mahamudra-advanced/a-discourse-on-autocommentary-to-a-root-text-for-mahamudra-the-dalai-lama/mahamudra-the-four-seals-mahamudra-dzogchen

 

 

Well... I think we have put that one to bed. I hope this is more helpful. 
 

 

Well, thanks for that, I do appreciate it. 
 

This interests me, though I'm still a little confused about what text he's quoting from here:

"Many great masters of India, such as Mahasukha – also known as Padmavajra – and likewise Saraha, Nagarjuna, Shabari, Tilopa, Naropa, Maitripa and others, as well as numerous great Kagyu masters of old, such as Marpa, Milarepa, Gampopa, Pagmodrupa and so forth, have all concurred that the ultimate mahamudra is the greatly blissful clear light mind manifested after causing the energy-winds to enter, abide and dissolve in the central energy-channel" 

 

Bindi is keen on working with that central energy-channel. 

I've been writing about the nine stages in three levels that Cheng Man-Ch'ing described for the development of ch'i.  Does seem like there might be a parallel in the coupling of the last stage of "perfect clarity" with the development of ch'i, and the coupling of "clear light mind" with "causing the energy-winds to enter, abide, and dissolve in the central energy-channel".

I felt, though, that Berzin was partial to the "everything happening all at once", instant "clear light mind", did the channel work in some previous lifetime approach.  I guess I can understand that he would feel that way.  I wish him good luck.

Me, it's been clear to me from early on that I would have to teach myself the things I needed to know.  Good to have heard Kobun speak a few times, though--good that he said things like "nobody masters zazen" (can't give you a source, oh well).  That's reassuring to me--I guess I'm doing something right, then.  Ha ha!  Zazen is my teacher.

 

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Do you work with a lineage teacher with insight? It might help to run some of this by someone like that who can clarify the finer points of your interests. Fact checking yourself can be a dark rabbit hole indeed. I forget where you live, but I might be able to recommend a teacher if you don't have one. Certainly at Kobun's Jikoji I can point you to a couple of fantastic teachers brown robes who are eminently qualified.

 

Thanks,  I'm satisfied with my fact checking, so far.  

And thanks for taking the time to relate some of the details of your journey. 

All these years, I've never wanted to buy or sew a robe, I've always just sat in street clothes.  I haven't done that many sesshins, I guess.  When I thought about applying to Sonoma Mountain for residence, Laura Kwong recommended I just practice at home, instead--I think that was good advice, for me. 

Good luck with the sewing!
 

[stirling]

11 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

This interests me, though I'm still a little confused about what text he's quoting from here:

"Many great masters of India, such as Mahasukha – also known as Padmavajra – and likewise Saraha, Nagarjuna, Shabari, Tilopa, Naropa, Maitripa and others, as well as numerous great Kagyu masters of old, such as Marpa, Milarepa, Gampopa, Pagmodrupa and so forth, have all concurred that the ultimate mahamudra is the greatly blissful clear light mind manifested after causing the energy-winds to enter, abide and dissolve in the central energy-channel" 

 

At the top of the page Gyatso says:

 

Quote

As subdivisions within these two, Drikungpa Jigten Gonpo, the founder of the Drikung Kagyu tradition, elaborating on the intentions of Drogon Rinpoche, has explained four types of mudras or seals with respect to each of the three vehicles. This refers to the hinayana vehicle of the shravakas, the mahayana vehicle of the bodhisattvas and the tantrayana vehicle of hidden measures. Let me read out his words, filling in here and there what needs to be expanded in order to be clear.

 

I am not at all familiar with this teacher or his texts, but it might be the sort of thing that hasn't been translated? There is sadly a world of Vajrayana and Bon literature that hasn't been. 

 

 

Quote

Bindi is keen on working with that central energy-channel. 

I've been writing about the nine stages in three levels that Cheng Man-Ch'ing described for the development of ch'i.  Does seem like there might be a parallel in the coupling of the last stage of "perfect clarity" with the development of ch'i, and the coupling of "clear light mind" with "causing the energy-winds to enter, abide, and dissolve in the central energy-channel".

I felt, though, that Berzin was partial to the "everything happening all at once", instant "clear light mind", did the channel work in some previous lifetime approach.  I guess I can understand that he would feel that way.  I wish him good luck.

Me, it's been clear to me from early on that I would have to teach myself the things I needed to know.  Good to have heard Kobun speak a few times, though--good that he said things like "nobody masters zazen" (can't give you a source, oh well).  That's reassuring to me--I guess I'm doing something right, then.  Ha ha!  Zazen is my teacher.

 

Vajrayana and Chan are absolutely interconnected with Daoism. The relative-level tantric practices include moving internal winds and the like. I would love to be helpful, but the Nyingma school I have worked in is MUCH more like Zen in that the primary practice is "Open Awareness"/Shinkantaza/Dzogchen which comes "from the top" assuming that since all beings are already Buddha that is possible to practice as one and notice what has always already been the case. 

 

Probably it is mostly original Tibetan masters that know the ins and outs of the complicated energy practices, and many of them are drying up.  In this case, teaching yourself would likely be a mistake, as the instruction would be incomplete without a teacher. You would also be mixing incompatible teachings if you intended to continue with Mahamudra Zazen and then dive into energy practices. 

 

Quote

And thanks for taking the time to relate some of the details of your journey.

 

Sure!

 

Quote

All these years, I've never wanted to buy or sew a robe, I've always just sat in street clothes.  I haven't done that many sesshins, I guess.  When I thought about applying to Sonoma Mountain for residence, Laura Kwong recommended I just practice at home, instead--I think that was good advice, for me.

 

I understand that - me either. I've never been a "joiner" and have traditionally been uncomfortable with anything "religious". Meeting ngakapas (wandering teachers) set me up for a lifetime of thinking realization could happen anywhere, and so most often I have spent my core time with teachers who have this characteristic. Realization shifted my feeling about this. Being part of the dharma "team" and having recourse to the support of other transmitted teachers and deeper teaching has shifted so much about my life and practice. The commitment, however is not to them or yourself - it is to others. My current teacher is the primary driving force for the outreach program from SF Zen center to get brown-robe teachers out to smaller rural Zen centers that might not have a senior teacher. That might be a future role for me too. You can be anywhere and be of benefit, "actualizing enlightenment" where you are NOW. 

 

BTW, Green Gulch is a fantastic place to sit and stay if you are amenable. Reb Anderson is there - one of the most amazing Zen teachers alive today. 

 

Quote

Good luck with the sewing!

 

Thanks!

Edited April 29, 2023 by stirling

[Mark Foote]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:12 AM, steve said:

 

I don’t think the meaning of such instructions is to exert effort or intention to find something. It is more about discovering something that is already always there, one’s true nature, one’s “place.” It’s similar to waking up from sleep. Is there intention or effort involved waking? One simply finds oneself awake. It is a bit like that. But of course that is only my interpretation.

 

One more thing, on "is there intention or effort in waking up?"  From a  post I made on my site, probably ten years ago:
 

In 2005 I sat down and started to write, as I had many times before, with no clear idea about what I was going to say. I wrote about Moshe Feldenkrais and his three exercises for getting up out of a chair, I wrote about Ida Rolfe’s agonist/antagonist explanation of ligamentous support, and I wrote about John Upledger and the reciprocal innervation he felt while lying in an isolation tank. I explained at least to myself how the movement of breath and the shape of the spine could necessitate activity in the body, and even generate that activity involuntarily through the moment-to-moment sense of place connected with the occurrence of consciousness.
 

When I picked up the pen again, I wrote a short piece for a friend about waking up. Three days after I finished the piece, I had a dream where Kobun came walking up to me as I was sitting at a cafe table reading a newspaper; he was in his robes, carrying a short stick. I told him I had new shoes; he said nothing, but he smiled with a big grin. I looked at the newspaper, and wondered what I could tell him that was new. I thought about what I had written, and I thought to myself “Kobun wouldn’t want to hear about that”, but I started to recall what I had written and to feel my sense of place. I woke up, and as I realized what had happened, I regretted not telling Kobun what I had written.

(Kobun Chino Otogawa on Zazen [Remembering Kobun])

[Apech]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

At the top of the page Gyatso says:

 

 

I am not at all familiar with this teacher or his texts, but it might be the sort of thing that hasn't been translated? There is sadly a world of Vajrayana and Bon literature that hasn't been. 

 

 

 

Vajrayana and Chan are absolutely interconnected with Daoism. The relative-level tantric practices include moving internal winds and the like. I would love to be helpful, but the Nyingma school I have worked in is MUCH more like Zen in that the primary practice is "Open Awareness"/Shinkantaza/Dzogchen which comes "from the top" assuming that since all beings are already Buddha that is possible to practice as one and notice what has always already been the case. 

 

This is very true, although the Tibetans always emphasise the Indian origin (not sure but there might be something political about this) but there are even tankas and so on with the trigrams of the I Ching on them.

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Probably it is mostly original Tibetan masters that know the ins and outs of the complicated energy practices, and many of them are drying up.  In this case, teaching yourself would likely be a mistake, as the instruction would be incomplete without a teacher. You would also be mixing incompatible teachings if you intended to continue with Mahamudra Zazen and then dive into energy practices. 

 

I just read a 'biography' of the great Maitripa - 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Maitripa-Indias-Nondual-Bliss-Masters/dp/1611806704/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2VXY6SDY2Z62Q&keywords=Maitripa+mathes&qid=1682791971&sprefix=maitripa+mathes%2Caps%2C423&sr=8-1

 

if you are interested and it goes into detail about the different 'seals' or mudras.  The book is a masterful piece of scholarship (IMO).

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Sure!

 

 

I understand that - me either. I've never been a "joiner" and have traditionally been uncomfortable with anything "religious". Meeting ngakapas (wandering teachers) set me up for a lifetime of thinking realization could happen anywhere, and so most often I have spent my core time with teachers who have this characteristic. Realization shifted my feeling about this. Being part of the dharma "team" and having recourse to the support of other transmitted teachers and deeper teaching has shifted so much about my life and practice. The commitment, however is not to them or yourself - it is to others. My current teacher is the primary driving force for the outreach program from SF Zen center to get brown-robe teachers out to smaller rural Zen centers that might not have a senior teacher. That might be a future role for me too. You can be anywhere and be of benefit, "actualizing enlightenment" where you are NOW. 

 

BTW, Green Gulch is a fantastic place to sit and stay if you are amenable. Reb Anderson is there - one of the most amazing Zen teachers alive today. 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Salutations to all the lone mystics ... you are not alone! ... well you are but you know what I mean