Filling the Dan Tien

[Creation]

41 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

It is a bit off-putting that he is so convinced of his point without showing any indication that he has learned anything about it. It sounds like he has heard about it (or had some cursory contact with it, but likely did not put in the time or effort to receive instruction in deity yoga). 

 

Deity yoga in Tibetan Buddhism is obviously a bit complicated, with general and special creation and completion stages depending on the specific vehicle. He is ignoring the fact that concentrating on deities and their environment develops shamatha, or concentration, and that building and dissolving detailed worlds can give one insight into the nature of all perceptions (i.e. vipassana). It also does contain stillness parts to it, so it is unclear where he is getting his information. But it strikes me as more than a bit arrogant to simply wave it all off as picturing deities.

I suspect that the people he has talked to who are deep into Tibetan Buddhism are Dzogchen practitioners.  You know as well as I do that they dispense with visualization once they get rigpa, and the only people who attained rainbow body in Tibet did so with Dzogchen.  So the part of what he is saying about needing to go beyond visualization to get deep body transformation is, IMO, a completely defensible thing to say.  Now, I do agree with you that there is more to deity yoga than just developing good qualities as Damo claims, but that is entirely due to empowerment.  If there was no empowerment, I would agree with Damo that it is just for developing good qualities, even if some of those good qualities seem "advanced" like super strong visualization ability.

[anshino23]

I agree with @Creation. In fact, freeform has brought up the point that there's hardly any results found from beginners trying to visualise deities because they cannot stabilise their minds and visualise all the hundreds or thousands of details that are necessary for it to actually work in the first place. 

 

It's also been called the "addition" principle - where when you try to add so many things to your mind that you hope it "snaps" into concentration/shamatha and then emptiness out of pure exhaustion, but IMHO it's not a good method and the people I've spoken to who are great practictioners within Tibetan lineages are certainly not using most of their time visualising, they are, as Creation is saying residing in the natural state of mind (Dzogchen or Mahamudra) or doing immense amounts of dharanis/mantras, Guru Yoga, shamatha and have empowerments from established teachers - they go on long retreats, they take specific alchemical pills, and they absorb into the body in very very specific ways. Please look into the The Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa (Glenn Mullin translation) and look how much clear energy work they do there. Even there they limit the visualisations to very very small flames - and at that point, they actually already have Tummo going and the empowerments going along with the teachings - so they can enter clear samadhi. 

 

@forestofemptiness Can you tell a bit more about how can you know that he's not telling the truth and knows what he's talking about? Doesn't really make sense to me, unless you personally have contact to countless of Tibetan masters and disciples within genuine lineages that get real results. Also it's interesting you bring up the Dalai Lama as if he's one of the most elevated and attained people within the spiritual community - master Nan Huai Chin and others have contended that since the 6th Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama has actually just been a figure-head but that the highest attained masters of Dzogchen/Mahamudra and of the Kagyu and Nyingmapa school have gone underground, with the highest adepts residing in the Tibetan mountains out of contact to all but the most carefully selected (merit) disciples. The story goes that all of this is due to the times we are currently residing in called the Dharma Ending Age - and most of the teachings publically availaible have almost nothing to do with the real juice of genuine cultivation. They are also called semblance dharmas. 

 

I believe for many, its also much easier to have them visualise things and create "sensations" that mimic real attainments but without actually getting anywhere to just help them stabilise their minds, make them happy (it feels good!) and create good connections (hopefully through mantra and karmic resonance) for future lifetimess. Genuine full enlightenment is incredibly rare and the highest achievement for a human being, and I think that's not something we should easily forget, lest we descend into further delusion and ignorance. 

 

It is said that in around 40k years (allegedly, there are disputes about the exact timing) the supreme nirmanakaya (uttamanirmāṇakāya) Buddha Maitreya will incarnate on Earth descending from the inner court in Tushita to teach the Dharma anew, turning the Wheel once again. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by anshino23

[freeform]

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, dwai said:

Actually it goes beyond rising up through the internal lines as well. It comes back from the surface. The Qi goes down the legs, and returns back through the crown point, but not from "inside" the body at all.

 

Yes - things change considerably at different stages of development.

 

When fully "peng" then there's no force moving or travelling at all - everything is at the point of contact. This is where taiji starts to look 'woo woo'.

[dwai]

What I'm referring to goes beyond just peng. There is no "you" and "outside" at that point, for all practical purposes. When a hand moves, it displaces energy in the space within which it exists. How much is displaced depends on the depth of mastery. Its sort of like being in a swimming pool and transitioning from being a little person in an ocean to a  whale in the ocean to eventually becoming the ocean itself

[Creation]

7 hours ago, anshino23 said:

In fact, freeform has brought up the point that there's hardly any results found from beginners trying to visualise deities because they cannot stabilise their minds and visualise all the hundreds or thousands of details that are necessary for it to actually work in the first place. 

 

It's also been called the "addition" principle - where when you try to add so many things to your mind that you hope it "snaps" into concentration/shamatha and then emptiness out of pure exhaustion, but IMHO it's not a good method and the people I've spoken to who are great practictioners within Tibetan lineages are certainly not using most of their time visualising, they are, as Creation is saying residing in the natural state of mind (Dzogchen or Mahamudra) or doing immense amounts of dharanis/mantras, Guru Yoga, shamatha and have empowerments from established teachers - they go on long retreats, they take specific alchemical pills, and they absorb into the body in very very specific ways. Please look into the The Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa (Glenn Mullin translation) and look how much clear energy work they do there. Even there they limit the visualisations to very very small flames - and at that point, they actually already have Tummo going and the empowerments going along with the teachings - so they can enter clear samadhi. 

...and most of the teachings publically availaible have almost nothing to do with the real juice of genuine cultivation. They are also called semblance dharmas.

I just want to say, there is some confusion about the point of deity yoga for serious cultivation, especially among those who are deep into Daoist internal arts, namely that it only functions as a preliminary to later things like the Six Yogas and Dzogchen/Mahamudra, and is thence dispensed with by real yogis.  I think forestofemptiness is right to point out that this is not correct, but I disagree with him about what is not correct about it. 

 

An instance of why this is not correct is Jigme Lingpa's personal retreat schedule in his later years: it contained roughly equal parts deity yoga, channels and drops, and Dzogchen.  Why would he continue to do deity yoga when he was already at a very high level if it was only something for beginners? 

 

Using Daoist terminology, empowerment gives a shen tranmission that allows the various mantras and visualizations to tap you into things at the shen level, the ling level actually, to the extent that I understand what that even means.  This is why samaya purity and surrender to the teacher are given such importance.  freeform has mentioned about top down and bottom up approaches in a thread you started,

Tibetan Buddhism, and deity yoga in particular, are a top down method.  If you look at it like it is a bottom up method, and compare it to other bottom up methods you will misunderstand it.  Requiring preliminary practices before empowerment was an insertion of bottom up methods into a fundamentally top down method.  This is why it causes such cognitive dissonance in many Westerners, but also explains why it became mandatory:  As freeform observes that thread, people get more stable results that way. 

[forestofemptiness]

Actually, that has not been my experience at all, although my experience is quite limited. In my experience, rigpa is integrated into deity practice, not separate or apart from it. If you were to join Tergar and work through their program from the beginning, you would spend 3-4 developing concentration and insight, 3-4 years developing Mahamudra, and then you learn deity practice. For more, see Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's Dzogchen Deity practice for a good start. I do know that getting advanced teachings from an actual Tibetan master before one has spent years in preliminary practices is very rare. 

 

Second, deity practice in my experience works if done properly. If it were a mere visualization exercise, I would not expect it to seemingly manifest tangible, real world results (even completely life changing results). Of course, it is possible that correlation does not mean causation, but for me, the correlation is too strong to be ignored. I suppose this is something people have to discover for themselves. 

 

Third, Damo seems focused on jhana and samadhi.  Caveat here that I am not speaking about him as a person, but rather I am addressing his comments. Here is a further quote from his FB page: https://www.facebook.com/damomitchellneigong/posts/this-is-absolutely-the-truth-prior-to-the-above-listed-states-a-person-is-traini/2552179198342409/

 

Jhana and samadhi (depending on how you define it) are usually preliminary practices in Buddhism. Preliminary to what? Vipassana, or insight. Every Buddhist system has this separation. Why? Because jhana and samadhi on their own cannot liberate-- what liberates from a Buddhist POV is knowledge. Jhana allows you to settle the mind (to what degree is open to debate) so that you can then look and see what is going on in your experience. But it is the seeing that frees, not the stopping/stilling/tranquilizing, etc. But the Buddha was pretty clear that jhana alone cannot lead to liberate-- per the Suttas, his jhana mastery did not deliver him from suffering. Additionally, bodily or energetic transformation is no guarantee of insight. From what I have been taught, siddhis are tied to concentration (i.e. samadhi/jhana). So it makes sense that this would be a focus if one is trying to attain siddhis. 

 

So does deity practice give you knowledge? It can, because the way deity visualizations are constructed is very similar, if not identical to how the mind creates the world in dreams and in waking life. 

 

11 hours ago, Creation said:

I suspect that the people he has talked to who are deep into Tibetan Buddhism are Dzogchen practitioners.  You know as well as I do that they dispense with visualization once they get rigpa, and the only people who attained rainbow body in Tibet did so with Dzogchen.  So the part of what he is saying about needing to go beyond visualization to get deep body transformation is, IMO, a completely defensible thing to say.  Now, I do agree with you that there is more to deity yoga than just developing good qualities as Damo claims, but that is entirely due to empowerment.  If there was no empowerment, I would agree with Damo that it is just for developing good qualities, even if some of those good qualities seem "advanced" like super strong visualization ability.

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by forestofemptiness
Per request

[Creation]

@forestofemptiness I was too cavalier when I said "dispense with visualization", you are correct of course.  Did you see my post above about the role of deity yoga in Tibetan practice?  What I should have said in the post you quoted is that for high level yogis practices are integrated with rigpa so there is no sense of effort involved, they are no longer "mind based".  And this is strictly to discuss the efficacy of visualization in producing deep transformation of body and qi, which is what Damo was addressing.  The issue of insight in the Buddhist sense quite a different issue, though one that I can tell is very important to you.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Creation

[forestofemptiness]

@anshino23, hopefully I have addressed at least some of your points above. If not, let me know and I can expand, I am trying and failing not to write a novel here. However, keep in mind I do not see myself as a representative of the Tibetan tradition--- in fact, I am doing Taoist practices because I don't want to spend the time developing further in their system. I cannot do hours of prostrations/mantras/etc but I can do longer periods of tai chi/qigong, etc.

 

Imagine if I come up to you and said "qigong is just waving your arms." In fact, this has been said on this board a number of times. Now, you say "well, that has not been my experience at all." You would not need contact with countless teachers and disciples in genuine lineages to know that what I'm saying is nonsense. You would know because having learned and practiced qigong yourself that it is not "just waving your arms." In fact, you would likely say that my conclusion expresses a fundamental lack of knowledge about qigong. But I say that I have had contact with qigong for a long time, and I know many qigong students, and all they do is wave their arms. Is my conclusion justified by the premises? It is not if there are in fact qigong practitioners who are not "just waving their arms." So it is not a matter of becoming familiar with all practitioners, an impossibility, but a matter of becoming familiar with a few knowledgeable practitioners. One black swan disproves the premise that all swans are white. 

 

The problem with most Western students in my experience (including me) is that we simply do not follow the instructions as we are given them. We add, we subtract, we do what we want. Then we are often surprised as the lack of result. In addition, most Westerners I have come across have not been given genuine teachings, and if they do, they don't follow the instructions. Accordingly, of course there are hoards of Western (and probably Eastern, but I don't know) students of Buddhism, Tai Chi, qigong, etc. who are in fact "just waving their arms" or "just imagining pictures." But the branch does not always reflect the root, and to say the root is weak because the branch is weak is not always correct.

 

 

8 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

@forestofemptiness Can you tell a bit more about how can you know that he's not telling the truth and knows what he's talking about? Doesn't really make sense to me, unless you personally have contact to countless of Tibetan masters and disciples within genuine lineages that get real results. Also it's interesting you bring up the Dalai Lama as if he's one of the most elevated and attained people within the spiritual community - master Nan Huai Chin and others have contended that since the 6th Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama has actually just been a figure-head but that the highest attained masters of Dzogchen/Mahamudra and of the Kagyu and Nyingmapa school have gone underground, with the highest adepts residing in the Tibetan mountains out of contact to all but the most carefully selected (merit) disciples. The story goes that all of this is due to the times we are currently residing in called the Dharma Ending Age - and most of the teachings publically availaible have almost nothing to do with the real juice of genuine cultivation. They are also called semblance dharmas. 

 

[CloudHands]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

Sure it's a fair question. I always feel a little embarrassed talking about my experience with these arts, because it sounds like bragging or something. But it's really not - just a lot of compromise in life!

 

 

Hi freeform, it did not sounded like bragging at all

 

I don't have much to say about Buddhism because it's definitely not my path. Just one thing for now, you said :

"None of this means I'm particularly advanced... in fact, when training with my teachers and the other students, it becomes pretty obvious how much most people like to 'lower the bar' of attainment to match their experience. "

 

I liked to read that (even if I'm not sure what about it concretely applies, if you are up to develop...) because I tend to see the opposite much more often.

Edited May 7, 2020 by CloudHands

[anshino23]

@forestofemptiness: Thank you for your replies. 

 

16 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Second, deity practice in my experience works if done properly. If it were a mere visualization exercise, I would not expect it to seemingly manifest tangible, real world results (even completely life changing results). Of course, it is possible that correlation does not mean causation, but for me, the correlation is too strong to be ignored. I suppose this is something people have to discover for themselves. 

 

Third, Damo seems focused on jhana and samadhi.  Caveat here that I am not speaking about him as a person, but rather I am addressing his comments. Here is a further quote from his FB page: https://www.facebook.com/damomitchellneigong/posts/this-is-absolutely-the-truth-prior-to-the-above-listed-states-a-person-is-traini/2552179198342409/

 

Jhana and samadhi (depending on how you define it) are usually preliminary practices in Buddhism. Preliminary to what? Vipassana, or insight. Every Buddhist system has this separation. Why? Because jhana and samadhi on their own cannot liberate-- what liberates from a Buddhist POV is knowledge. Jhana allows you to settle the mind (to what degree is open to debate) so that you can then look and see what is going on in your experience. But it is the seeing that frees, not the stopping/stilling/tranquilizing, etc. But the Buddha was pretty clear that jhana alone cannot lead to liberate-- per the Suttas, his jhana mastery did not deliver him from suffering. Additionally, bodily or energetic transformation is no guarantee of insight. From what I have been taught, siddhis are tied to concentration (i.e. samadhi/jhana). So it makes sense that this would be a focus if one is trying to attain siddhis. 

 

So does deity practice give you knowledge? It can, because the way deity visualizations are constructed is very similar, if not identical to how the mind creates the world in dreams and in waking life. 

 

I suppose we come from two different schools of thought within Buddhism. What I was taught by one of Master Nan Huai Chin's students was that genuine dhyana and wisdom arise together. It seems that the Western tradition, in particular, has divided it into completely separate aspects. As an example, people in the Western tradition usually talk about Vipassana practices and Jhana practices, but in my view, this is complete bollocks and isn't true at all. Many actually treat meditation as if it was some sort of mental exercise where you train your mind in noting as many sensations as possible (see e.g. Daniel Ingram, who considers himself an Arhat - the highest stage of development within the Theravadan tradition or the lesser vehicle). To someone exposed to what I consider genuine dharma, this proposition is absurd. 

 

It is said that when one truly enters the first jhana, one is in the space of devas, one is no longer of the coarse nature of a normal human being - jhanas are a complete transformation of body and mind, not simply a short-lived mental trip. 

 

In Master Nan Huai Chin's depiction of the first jhana, he explains this very clearly: 

 

Quote

Now we will talk about Dhyana samadhi (Chan Ding). The old translation in Buddhism is ‘four dhyanas and eight samadhis‘. Four types of Dhyana fitting in with the four types of samadhi, so this is called four dhyanas and eight samadhis. Everyone should know about the first dhyana, second dhyana, third dhyana and fourth dhyana. These are all the ‘common practices’ of Buddhism with external paths. The old translation of First dhyana samadhi is called ‘Bliss and Joy transcending life (might mean body)’.  Second dhyana samadhi is called steady bliss and joy. Third dhayana samadhi is called leaving joy, obtaining bliss. Fourth dhyana samadhi is abandoning thoughts into purity. These dhyana samadhi realms are also gong-fu realms, which are what Buddhism shares with external paths. Even in learning Buddhism, whether you chant the Buddha’s name, use koans, cultivate esoteric Buddhism, orthodox Buddhism, it will reach the same levels and degrees. It does not matter if it is external path or within Buddhism path.
 

In modern society, whether you are from Tibet or the East, wherever it is, to find someone who can reach First Dhyana, to transcend with bliss and joy, being the narrow-minded and inexperienced person I am, I have not seen any before. My standard is the same as Buddhism’s standard. First Dhyana samadhi, this first step is common practice. Maitreya Bodhisattva told us and spoke more clearly, and it is in this paragraph that we spoke about before lunch in that book Yogacarabhumi Shastra on page 370. He called First Dhyana  quiet thoughts.
 

First Dhyana samadhi, quiet thoughts with seeking and waiting, this is ‘leaving/transcending’. Dharma master Kumarajiva translated it as transcending life/body to joy and bliss. Clear and simple. Dharma master Xuanzang translates it as meditation with seeking. I will use an analogy for ‘seeking’. It is tantamount to when you hold an electric plug. Where is the head of the plug? You try and it is incorrect and not plugged… there is seeking and waiting… then “dong!”, the plug is in. Now the real translation of ‘bliss and joy transcending life/body’, you people have heard before from Buddhism school.

Now we will sincerely, honestly and steadily discuss this. It does not matter whether you chant the Buddha’s name or do sitting meditation. Have you reached this realm of ‘bliss and joy transcending life/body’?

If you have not, then you have not attained the enjoyment of the Buddha’s dharma. If our ordinary thinking, mood, body and mind cannot be changed, then once we enter First Dhyana‘s realm, our flesh body, including the qi channels inside, as well as our jing-shen (vitality-spirit), thoughts, and our personality will change naturally.

In the First Dhyana realm, you take notice of ‘leaving/transcending’. Why did they add this word in? It means to break free from the old habits that you originally have, at the same time through the functions of the jing-shen (vitality-spirit) and flesh body, slowly cultivate until the highest degree, having the feeling of separation, feeling of liberation.

In other words, jing-shen and the body’s alambana (realms) are raised to a higher level. So once you have this feeling of breaking away, what arises? Bliss and joy. Do not think of bliss and joy as you please. “Joy” is a mental condition. In your psychology, every bitter environment/situation, the dirtiest places, the most unlucky things, you laugh… you naturally like them and are not flustered, as if you are like Maitreya Bodhisattva laughing everyday. You are slapped on the face, you laugh… you ask if his hand is painful. Sorry for causing your hand pain. You are scolded, you laugh… Sorry, sorry, don’t be angry. You will be like this. These are analogies of the feeling of separating. Both the physiology and psychology are all transforming.

Separation, joy, the mental realm is in this alambana realm. “Bliss” is the feeling of the physiology. If you look at us people, even though people are healthy, do you think they are happy? Not necessarily, it is not that they feel unwell inside. It is that the eyes are not right, the teeth hurt, the legs get numb after sitting for long. If I ask you to sit there for half a day without moving, without attaining ‘bliss and joy transcending life’, it is like a punishment, right? In the state of bliss, the esoteric sect says that the qi  channels are opened up, the Taoists say the extraordinary 8 vessels are all opened.
 

What is the point of genuinely opening the qi channels or the extraordinary 8 vessels of Taoism? It is in order to reach the “bliss” of the First Dhyana. What is “bliss”? It is attaining an extremely thrilling/pleasurable alambana (realm). When this state is reached, guys won’t think of girls, girls won’t think of guys. Not a single thing is there, you do not want to do it, you do not need it anymore.

This is because one’s body has arisen this blissful sensation that has transcended this.Therefore after Maitreya Bodhisattva there is this phrase called “internally contacted wonderful bliss”. Your internal life (body), makes contact with, come across, as if the electric plug has been inserted correctly, and there arises a wonderful type of pleasurable sensation that transcends the world. “Joy” is the psychological state of leaving (body) and “bliss” is the physiological state. So in this process, it is the esoteric sect. Therefore, everyone knows the Tibetan esoteric sect is extraordinary in this, talking about qi channels. Don’t be modest, you don’t have to be humble in this aspect, in other places you don’t want to be arrogant. These extraordinary eight channels, those who cultivate Taoism love doing this.

If you all meditate and sit well, the extraordinary eight channels will open up. People who have special abilities, will have qi gong, can heal other people – actually the vessels are not genuinely opened. If they are really opened, the old joints will soften up just like an infant’s. If the extraordinary 12 channels are opened, the 12 channels will definitely be opened too. All of the states inside (the body) will completely change. Even if you cannot say there will be no diseases, at the very least, you have very small diseases that resolve quickly, these are the extraordinary eight vessels. How about the Tibetan esoteric sect? They don’t talk about these 8 channels, they talk about the three channels and four chakras. Four positions. In reality they are three channels and seven chakras, within this body. These are all sciences. It is not what doctors and great scholars can dissect in a nerve and see. You cannot find them in the blood vessels. However, there is really such a thing. Medicine must open-mindedly investigate it. So what are the 3 channels? The crown is called the Bai Hu acupoint. Which area is the Bai Hui? As infants when we were born, this crown is still moving around. Infants still do not know how to speak. When this crown becomes more solid, the infant starts to learn how to speak. In males and females, the Zhong Mai commonly runs from the Bai Hui acupoint down to the Hai Di point. So when you are diligent in cultivation, the eight channels are not anything special. To really open the middle channel is extremely difficult. If you open the middle channel, at any time you will be in a samadhi realm, everyday you are in a blue-sky alambana (realm). Therefore, the esoteric sect’s drawings draw them to be blue, black, these five colours represent the various alambanas (realms) within the Form realms.

This is a genuine alambana (realm) where psychology and physiology, or mind and material are unified and combined. You say you learn the Chan sect, you say I see the mountain as not the mountain, see the water as not the water, the ghosts as not the ghosts, then you have really seen a ghost. This is still a alambana (realm) of external form, a realm inside of you. It is a science, the power of the mind and material combining is here, therefore the opening of the middle channel is like this. It is very difficult.

Therefore, Indian Yoga uses the comparison of a snake for the middle channel, the spirit’s movement, inside every person’s life. In China, Taoists use the comparison of a turtle, the turtle that the Xuan Wu heavenly emperor steps on. Its head is retracted inside. It is saying that this life (body), the fetus born from parents, has this capability from birth.

 

To claim enlightenment or even dhyana and genuine absorption without having transformed the body is really a deviation from genuine practice. There's no such thing as "entering dhyana" without also having transformed the body. Yes, it is not waking to the Tao, since that cannot be based in the body or form in any way, but without going through this developmental process of gradual changes and entering into genuine samadhi, wisdom will certainly not arise as absorption and wisdom arise together. If someone has not entered absorption but still has wisdom, it will be of the mundane type and not the supramundane wisdom which is what leads to liberation. 

 

16 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I do know that getting advanced teachings from an actual Tibetan master before one has spent years in preliminary practices is very rare.

 

I think an important thing to keep in mind here is that it's not like you just go up and ask for it - and it's not either that you necessarily have to wait 10 years before they'll teach you (though that can certainly happen); but it is certainly the fact that if you are already at a high stage of development - the Masters will recognize that and teach you the genuine appropriate techniques that you can handle. So someone like Damo who has been exposed to genuine masters of various traditions, if he had any genuine development (and I personally believe he has) then the teachers of other traditions would naturally want to share more with him than someone who can barely stabilise their mind and has not yet transformed the very basic aspects of their acquired mind. So I would say it is not just about preliminary vs non-preliminary, it is also about whether you have attainments or not. 

 

15 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

The problem with most Western students in my experience (including me) is that we simply do not follow the instructions as we are given them. We add, we subtract, we do what we want. Then we are often surprised as the lack of result. In addition, most Westerners I have come across have not been given genuine teachings, and if they do, they don't follow the instructions. Accordingly, of course there are hoards of Western (and probably Eastern, but I don't know) students of Buddhism, Tai Chi, qigong, etc. who are in fact "just waving their arms" or "just imagining pictures." But the branch does not always reflect the root, and to say the root is weak because the branch is weak is not always correct.

 

This is a good point and I certainly agree with that. There is always more to the story if the practice is based in an authentic tradition. 

 

Wonderful discussion, I want to give thanks to all that are participating in it.   

Edited May 8, 2020 by anshino23

[dwai]

5 hours ago, anshino23 said:

To claim enlightenment or even dhyana and genuine absorption without having transformed the body is really a deviation from genuine practice. There's no such thing as "entering dhyana" without also having transformed the body. Yes, it is not waking to the Tao, since that cannot be based in the body or form in any way, but without going through this developmental process of gradual changes and entering into genuine samadhi, wisdom will certainly not arise as absorption and wisdom arise together. If someone has not entered absorption but still has wisdom, it will be of the mundane type and not the supramundane wisdom which is what leads to liberation. 

What kind of transformation of the “body” is sufficient?

If you look at the Buddha’s own life, you’ll see that he only attained enlightenment AFTER discarding extremes (which ranged from extreme starvation, exposure to elements etc etc). 
 

Body preparation is only a basic requirement because our minds cannot be focused or steady if the body is not stable. We need to train our bodies to become stable for meditation. There is no need to do anything beyond a handful of asanas and pranayama to train the body to be stable and set the stage for deep meditation. There is no need for fancy and elaborate body rituals beyond that, if enlightenment is the goal. In fact, over obsession with the body is a severe impediment to enlightenment  
 

The knowledge that arises after samādhi has been attained, is a confirmation of the knowledge that is transmitted by the teaching (dharma).
 

It’s like, you’ve been given a map to the Niagara Falls and only after you reach Niagara Falls you know what it really is like... 

 

[anshino23]

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

What kind of transformation of the “body” is sufficient?

 

Haha. I think Master Nan answered that quite nicely, it's quite extensive.

 

But the basic idea, as I understand it, is that the true purpose of the Dharma is to end suffering. But then the question becomes does one continue to suffer after awakening? It's like a person recognising that throwing rotten meat into a river causes food poisoning in a village. One may have realised the dangers of doing that, but does one do anything about continuing the discarding of meat into the river? In the same way, upon awakening, there is still work to be done. Realising one is still bound by karmic ties, one has to purify the remaining two bodies (nirmāṇakāya / rūpakāya and the saṃbhogakāya).

 

"As to the perfect reward body, the rupakaya, this is the result of one's cultivation work and is very difficult to achieve. I mentioned before the thirty-two marks of a Buddha and the eighty detailed physical characteristics. The body of anyone who has succeeded in cultivation, attained the Tao, has undergone a complete physical transformation. This physical body is the reward body.
 

Why is it called the "reward body"? Actually, everyone's body is a "reward body." If throughout one's life one is very comfortable and fortunate, this is the reward of previous virtue. Others may experience a lot of pain and suffering and lead a very pitiful life. Their body is the result of non-virtuous actions in a previous life. Through cultivation work, we transform this karmic reward body.

 

In the Taoist school, they describe the process as getting rid of illness to lengthen one's life and achieving immortality. This is talking about transforming the reward body. Achieving the perfect reward body is gaining complete liberation, changing mortal bones into immortal bones and gaining every kind of super power.

 

This is extremely difficult to achieve. The perfect reward body is very difficult to cultivate. The Taoist cultivation, opening qi mai, as well as Esoteric cultivation, opening the three channels and seven chakras, both start from the reward body. Samatha and samapatti (stopping and introspection), the Pure Land practice of reciting the Buddha's name and vipassana meditation are all examples of practices which mainly cultivate the dharmakaya. When one cultivates to the point where he or she has at will another body outside of this physical body, this is the sambogakaya or transformation body functioning. This is a very basic overview of the three bodies.
 

The average person who practices Buddhist or Taoist cultivation works on the dharmakaya.
 

The Esoteric school emphasizes the achievement of the three bodies because only when one achieves the three kayas has one successfully completed the Path. This is also called completion in one lifetime. "In one lifetime," means in this one lifetime to settle the question of life and death, to succeed at achieving the three bodies. In theory, this can be done, but in actuality, it is of the utmost difficulty. One must achieve perfection of vinaya (discipline), samadhi and wisdom as well as completely transform this physical body of four elements born of one's parents. Only this can be called completion in one lifetime."

 

 

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

Body preparation is only a basic requirement because our minds cannot be focused or steady if the body is not stable. We need to train our bodies to become stable for meditation. There is no need to do anything beyond a handful of asanas and pranayama to train the body to be stable and set the stage for deep meditation. There is no need for fancy and elaborate body rituals beyond that, if enlightenment is the goal. In fact, over obsession with the body is a severe impediment to enlightenment  

 

I don't think it can be disputed that attachment to the body is an impediment to enlightenment.  

 

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

If you look at the Buddha’s own life, you’ll see that he only attained enlightenment AFTER discarding extremes (which ranged from extreme starvation, exposure to elements etc etc). 

 

Who said anything about extremes?  

Edited May 8, 2020 by anshino23

[dwai]

 

 

 

 

 

3

16 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Haha. I think Master Nan answered that quite nicely, it's quite extensive.

 

But the basic idea, as I understand it, is that the true purpose of the Dharma is to end suffering. But then the question becomes does one continue to suffer after awakening? It's like a person recognising that throwing rotten meat into a river causes food poisoning in a village. One may have realised the dangers of doing that, but does one do anything about continuing the discarding of meat into the river? In the same way, upon awakening, there is still work to be done. Realising one is still bound by karmic ties, one has to purify the remaining two bodies (nirmāṇakāya / rūpakāya and the saṃbhogakāya).

A very important point needs to be made (albeit whether it will make sense or not, will depend).  

Who gets enlightened? And what does enlightenment really mean? Is it some supranormal state? Or is it simply a realization of "the real nature" (Self/non-Self whatever you want to call it). 

Does the limited being who identifies with the mind-body-personality get enlightened? Or is enlightenment a liberation from being limited by that mind-body-personality identification?

Does an enlightened being not feel pain and pleasure? That'll make them an automaton, not enlightened, imho. No, they continue to feel pain/pleasure etc just as a normal person would so long as they continue to have a body-mind. What is gone is the aversion and clinging. That is liberation -- not being bound within and restricted by the prison of personality and identity, with the mind as the jailor as well as the inmate, that we have created for ourselves. 

 

[forestofemptiness]

Actually, it is the Buddha who makes this distinction, not Western Buddhists. I think it is important to read traditions in their wider context, and condition the yi (to steal a phrase from Damo) by reading the source documents. Right concentration is samma samadhi, the 7th step on the Eightfold Path. Vipassana is the 8th step, samma sati or right mindfulness. You will also see this tracing through various historical sources, including Chan, Tien Tai, Tibetan sources, etc. This is not to say that the two are always or forever separate, but typically they are initially presented in that way. And this is how it is presented in the Pali suttas, so it is clearly not a Western innovation. I think if you look a little more closely at Nan/Bodri's stuff, you will find it in there as well. 

 

I think what is important to keep in mind with both dharma and Taoism is the overriding view (in this case, I must unfortunately refer to the conceptual view, which hardly deserves the label "view" at all). In both traditions, there is no fixed, permanent basis upon which to erect one's concepts. In Mahayana Buddhism, everything is empty. In Taoism, the source is mysterious and change is constant. It is said that the Buddha taught 84,000 dharma gates for all the various people, so to reduce everything to one teacher and one teaching is a bit off in my mind. In Taoism, it is said that the flexible tongue lasts until death, whereas the inflexible teeth crack and break. The Tao being formless, the tongue would be closer to it than the teeth, and likewise, I presume that an open flexible mind is closer to the source than one that is not. That is one reason why I am always suspicious of fixed views-- it is not unlike a qi block. When the mind is fixed, it doesn't flow and adapt which is a real problem since everything is flowing and changing constantly. This is one reason I am usually suspicious of "one way" or "only this" statements. 

 

You may be surprised that there is no agreed upon definition of samadhi or jhana in Buddhism. There are sutta jhanas, as elaborated in the Pali Suttas. These tend to be softer and easier to attain. There are Visuddhamagga jhanas, based on the ancient commentarial tradition. These jhanas are much more difficult to attain. And the spectrum continues--- some people say it isn't a jhana until it last 15 minutes, 1 hour, 4 hours, 72 hours, a week (I've heard all of these!). This isn't to say that one way is right or wrong, it is to say there are different methods for different people. Now some teachers will say that soft jhanas are insufficient for sustained insight, and other teachers will say that hard jhanas tend to narrow and harden the mind, making insight more difficult. It can be hard to find a good balance based on one's personal karma and potential. 

 

I see Master Nan in a way as a sort of world class athlete, perhaps a triathlete. If you only take being a high level triathlete as being "genuine" exercise, then certainly you may look down on professional and Olympic athletes who only focus on one sport. You may also poo poo State champs, and definitely would not look twice at the best swimmer in the county. But you see, that is a narrow definition of "exercise." Quite frankly, even the average Joe or Jane who eats right and works out several times a week is engaging in exercise, and will certainly realize health benefits. Perhaps not the extreme bodily and mental control evidenced by a triathlete, but certainly getting their heart rate up may extend their life. Their mood will likely improve, they will weigh less, and so on. But of course if you are a busy person with a family and a job, and you work out often and watch your diet, you should be fairly happy with your health results. However, if you definition of "exercise" is what a triathlete does, you will spend your life disappointed. Of course, not everyone can be a triathlete, and many people I imagine end up with broken and damaged bodies for the attempt. 

 

If you are some one who has access to a great teacher, and you can spend 16 hours a day cultivating extremely high states of concentration, then I say go for it. However, Buddhas and realized beings have infinite compassion, and know that not everyone can achieve this way. That is why there are many methods. If you say there is only one method, or that the dharma is only for the few, then you are denying the limitless compassion of the Buddhas. One of the reasons Tantra arose in India is to assist lay people to achieve insight working with their circumstances. Later on in Tibet, of course, it was monasticized. Many Chan methods developed when Chan monks were unable to practice full time in meditation. 

 

Of course, the fruit of practice arises in one's direct experience. When it does, then it is not a matter of book quotes or conceptual debates, you can simply look and see. 

 

 

6 hours ago, anshino23 said:

@forestofemptiness: Thank you for your replies. 

 

 

I suppose we come from two different schools of thought within Buddhism. What I was taught by one of Master Nan Huai Chin's students was that genuine dhyana and wisdom arise together. It seems that the Western tradition, in particular, has divided it into completely separate aspects. As an example, people in the Western tradition usually talk about Vipassana practices and Jhana practices, but in my view, this is complete bollocks and isn't true at all. Many actually treat meditation as if it was some sort of mental exercise where you train your mind in noting as many sensations as possible (see e.g. Daniel Ingram, who considers himself an Arhat - the highest stage of development within the Theravadan tradition or the lesser vehicle). To someone exposed to what I consider genuine dharma, this proposition is absurd. 

 

It is said that when one truly enters the first jhana, one is in the space of devas, one is no longer of the coarse nature of a normal human being - jhanas are a complete transformation of body and mind, not simply a short-lived mental trip. 

 

 

[dwai]

 

 

 

 

1

28 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

However, if you definition of "exercise" is what a triathlete does, you will spend your life disappointed. Of course, not everyone can be a triathlete, and many people I imagine end up with broken and damaged bodies for the attempt. 

And not everyone's karma requires for them to be champion spiritual triathletes (or non-spiritual ones either, for that matter). Considering Dharma without Karma is missing half the picture. It is due to Karma that some people barely have to spend any time and "boom!" they get it. While others, maybe even their own teachers have had to toil for decades on end. 

 

The problem arises when we have the same yardstick with which to measure all and sundry. Not only is it unnecessary, but it is also incorrect to do so. Because of the mythology surrounding spiritual attainments, sometimes, when there is a genuine awakening, doubt will later creep in and sully it, especially in the unprepared mind, because "Surely, it can't be that easy?!?"

 

 

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Of course, the fruit of practice arises in one's direct experience. When it does, then it is not a matter of book quotes or conceptual debates, you can simply look and see. 

 

Yes! This is called Pratyaksha pramāna in Yogic parlance -- direct apperception. 

[Master Logray]

On 5/4/2020 at 10:03 AM, anshino23 said:

Honestly, I think you are misunderstanding what Damo says. He actually agrees with you in terms of the non-locality of the true higher mind (as I see it), but that for practical purposes of the neigong process and building a lower dantien, we want it to rest or rather sink under its own weight down into the lower dantien. That's part of the practice. I think it's important to remember he is talking about a process of development here - that's basically what the video is about. He is not talking about the higher stages of Shen or the later stages of alchemy which would are quite involved, and would certainly include that of seeing the true nature of mind. 

 

Here's a quote from Damo's book called A Comphrensive Guide to Daoist Neigong:

 

 

Finally watched the video.  Just as you said, he didn't  say where the mind is  or should be.  He is talking about initial training of Neikung.   "Attention" may be a better word for mind in this context.   In the later stages, what he said there is no longer valid.

 

By the way, is the book good?

Edited May 8, 2020 by Master Logray
forgot

[freeform]

21 hours ago, CloudHands said:

Just one thing for now, you said :

"None of this means I'm particularly advanced... in fact, when training with my teachers and the other students, it becomes pretty obvious how much most people like to 'lower the bar' of attainment to match their experience. "

 

I liked to read that (even if I'm not sure what about it concretely applies, if you are up to develop...) because I tend to see the opposite much more often.

 

Correct me if I'm worng...

 

I think you're saying that what you see is the opposite of 'lowering the bar' - is that right?

 

9 hours ago, anshino23 said:

(see e.g. Daniel Ingram, who considers himself an Arhat - the highest stage of development within the Theravadan tradition or the lesser vehicle). To someone exposed to what I consider genuine dharma, this proposition is absurd. 

 

This is a perfect example of what I meant by 'lowering the bar'.

 

Or stuff like "I felt really blissful when I reached the 8th Jhanna"

 

Or when people come to me saying 'I'm having trouble with the fusion of yin and yang' - when they don't even have a dantien or the other 10,000 prerequisites before even understanding what that truly means.

 

Or when someone feels a pleasant chill go up their spine and assume that they've activated kundalini...

 

And then there's the 'awakened' crowd... a subject I better stay away from as I value my time

[freeform]

On 07/05/2020 at 2:54 PM, dwai said:

What I'm referring to goes beyond just peng. There is no "you" and "outside" at that point, for all practical purposes. When a hand moves, it displaces energy in the space within which it exists. How much is displaced depends on the depth of mastery. Its sort of like being in a swimming pool and transitioning from being a little person in an ocean to a  whale in the ocean to eventually becoming the ocean itself

 

What you're describing sounds like Peng to me... it's just very few people achieve real peng...

 

Bear in mind - I'm certainly not a taiji expert - just a bit of fun on the side

 

[anshino23]

2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Actually, it is the Buddha who makes this distinction, not Western Buddhists. I think it is important to read traditions in their wider context, and condition the yi (to steal a phrase from Damo) by reading the source documents. Right concentration is samma samadhi, the 7th step on the Eightfold Path. Vipassana is the 8th step, samma sati or right mindfulness. You will also see this tracing through various historical sources, including Chan, Tien Tai, Tibetan sources, etc. This is not to say that the two are always or forever separate, but typically they are initially presented in that way. And this is how it is presented in the Pali suttas, so it is clearly not a Western innovation. I think if you look a little more closely at Nan/Bodri's stuff, you will find it in there as well. 

 

In the Dhammapada (ch. The Path) it says, "Wisdom springs from jhana; without jhana wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself so that his wisdom may increase."

 

If you read the fruits of the contemplative life sutra, the Buddha talks about attaining the jhana state, which then gives birth to insight. There is no jhana without insight and no insight without jhana - both are inseperable. 

 

Vipassãna means insight, but there is no such thing as Vipassana meditation. Instead, the Buddha uses the word "sati" which would be equal to mindfulness as you mention. But that is different than vipassana meditation. As you also bring up yourself, the Buddha has desdcribed many ways to bring one to liberation; but the main premise is always on awareness/sati. This then describes the maga (practice) leading to phala (fruit). As I understand it, wisdom or prajna can only be attained when one is in a deep, still, equianimous and altered state of consciousness (absorption/samadhi). 

 

I think the issue comes from learning from translations and not from teachers with actual attainments  There are unfortunately many Western teachers that are great and unfortunate examples of this. 

 

2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

You may be surprised that there is no agreed upon definition of samadhi or jhana in Buddhism. There are sutta jhanas, as elaborated in the Pali Suttas. These tend to be softer and easier to attain. There are Visuddhamagga jhanas, based on the ancient commentarial tradition. These jhanas are much more difficult to attain. And the spectrum continues--- some people say it isn't a jhana until it last 15 minutes, 1 hour, 4 hours, 72 hours, a week (I've heard all of these!). This isn't to say that one way is right or wrong, it is to say there are different methods for different people. Now some teachers will say that soft jhanas are insufficient for sustained insight, and other teachers will say that hard jhanas tend to narrow and harden the mind, making insight more difficult. It can be hard to find a good balance based on one's personal karma and potential. 

 

Yes, and I think this is a great example that we are in the Dharma Ending Age, where genuine jhanas are incredibly difficult to attain, and confusion and delusion abounds everywhere. That's why a genuine teacher/master and hopefully also an authentic lineage is so important in these arts. I know that many public "teachers" want to "lower the bar" and call any brief state of joy and bliss genuine samadhi and claim enlightenment, but I think it's actually doing the Dharma a disservice.

 

Though I recognise I may be one of the few that consider that being the case.  

 

2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

If you are some one who has access to a great teacher, and you can spend 16 hours a day cultivating extremely high states of concentration, then I say go for it. However, Buddhas and realized beings have infinite compassion, and know that not everyone can achieve this way. That is why there are many methods. If you say there is only one method, or that the dharma is only for the few, then you are denying the limitless compassion of the Buddhas. One of the reasons Tantra arose in India is to assist lay people to achieve insight working with their circumstances. Later on in Tibet, of course, it was monasticized. Many Chan methods developed when Chan monks were unable to practice full time in meditation. 

 

Haha, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I agree with you I'm not saying -- at all -- that people are not getting better or gaining merit or reaching some degree of development; the only thing I'm claiming is that most simply won't reach those high levels of development, and instead may simply be reaching semblance stages of development, but don't go through the full process . I think living an honest life and being a caring and loving person is a beautiful thing and incredibly important - Dharma teachings involved or not. 

 

Transforming one's mortal bones into those of an immortal however is not an easy thing... And even Olympic athlete level dedication might not get you there. That is ultimately what we are discussing, and the opening topic is actually on building the very basic level physical body that may support one in moving toward that goal, whether one gets there or not. 

 

But that's okay, too. We have countless lifetimes ahead of us, and certainly any contact at all with the Dharma in any of its myriad forms will be a good thing.  

Edited May 8, 2020 by anshino23

[anshino23]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Finally watched the video.  Just as you said, he didn't  say where the mind is  or should be.  He is talking about initial training of Neikung.   "Attention" may be a better word for mind in this context.   In the later stages, what he said there is no longer valid.

 

By the way, is the book good?

 

Yes, the book is great. I can highly recommend it. I've found it to be an incredibly lucid description of the YJJ principles and how the "Neigong" body is developed and transformed. It also goes into the nature of jing, the movement of Yang Qi and goes into a bit of Qi to Shen and has some extra stuff on the central channel. It's a great read IMHO  Very inspiring. 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

What you're describing sounds like Peng to me... it's just very few people achieve real peng...

 

Bear in mind - I'm certainly not a taiji expert - just a bit of fun on the side

 

I know a few from my own personal and regular/frequent interactions...and they are unknown individuals, who don't seek publicity, nor can someone without the proper skill even fathom the depth of their skill. My own Master is one, and several of his students are at varying levels of on this spectrum. My Master's teacher is too. 

 

But we don't call it "peng" per se. in our tradition, peng is the quality of expansion/like a ball expanding. There are specific things we have to train in order for this to happen, such as learning how to support & maintain the 8 directions, etc. What I'm referring to is the stage beyond peng. I think among the current crop of 'famous' teachers the only one who clearly has it is Mark Rasmus.

Edited May 8, 2020 by dwai

[CloudHands]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Correct me if I'm worng...

 

I think you're saying that what you see is the opposite of 'lowering the bar' - is that right?

 

 

This is a perfect example of what I meant by 'lowering the bar'.

 

Or stuff like "I felt really blissful when I reached the 8th Jhanna"

 

Or when people come to me saying 'I'm having trouble with the fusion of yin and yang' - when they don't even have a dantien or the other 10,000 prerequisites before even understanding what that truly means.

 

Or when someone feels a pleasant chill go up their spine and assume that they've activated kundalini...

 

And then there's the 'awakened' crowd... a subject I better stay away from as I value my time

 

 

Ahah Ok I understand better now.

 

Here I see beginners aiming for the "highest" bar instead of taking the next step.

But among the people that I practice with I see many of them not taking the practice where it can lead. Because they don't realize the necessity of regular steady work and what they could possibly reach, they don't see the possibilities.

 

On the same time to straighten a body/mind is indeed a very difficult task.

 

More by curiosity than by need, you guys made we want to learn about Dzogchen.

[idiot_stimpy]

27 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

...you guys made we want to learn about Dzogchen.

 

 

 

Quote

 

In reality no distinction between samsara and nirvana can exist in anybody's mind. However, when the worldly fool rejects some things and indulges in others, avoiding the "bad" and cultivating the "good", despising one while loving another, then due to partiality, prejudice and bias, aimlessly he wanders through successive lives.

 

Rather than attain the spontaneously accomplished three modes of intrinsic Awareness without striving, thick-headed aspirants explore the techniques and stages of many time-consuming methods of "self-improvement", leaving them no time to reach the seat of the Buddha. - 

Flight of the Garuda

The Dzogchen Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism

 

[CloudHands]

7 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ahah I honestly like that very taoish

and hippies must have loved it.

[idiot_stimpy]

16 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

 

 

Ahah I honestly like that very taoish

and hippies must have loved it.

 

Quote

“There is something, chaotic yet complete, which existed before Heaven and Earth. Oh, how still it is, and formless, standing alone without changing, reaching everywhere without suffering harm! It must be regarded as the Mother of the Universe. Its name I know not. To designate it, I call it Tao. Endeavouring to describe it, I call it Great.”

-Lao-Tzu, Tao Te Ching