dwai

Xing and Ming cultivation

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Seeking some feedback on the following. Please feel free to post your thoughts/comments (please be concise and to the point if possible. If you write a 1000+ word essay, it makes my eyes glaze over and avoid reading it. :) ) --

 

Xing is "Original nature or True Nature", and lies in the domain of consciousness. Its root is the spiritual heart/MDT.

 

Ming is the" Life force or Qi", and lies in the domain of energy, and its root is the Lower Dan tien.

 

Practices like Qigong work on Ming. Xing needs more intricate (and simpler) forms of meditation wherein emphasis is not on cultivation and "adding to" (jing, qi and Shen) and/or "transformation" (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen), but rather of letting go and reduction/elimination (of artificial mental concepts, preconceptions and even subject-object interactions, aka Shen to Emptiness). 

 

Ming requires/implies "you wei" or doing, while Xing requires "wu wei" or not-doing.  But the two are not mutually exclusive, but rather parts of a continuum. Without proper cultivation of Ming, Xing cannot be realized(?). 

 

We have to go from doing to not-doing, effort to effortlessness. All it takes is patience, sincerity and clarity of mind. 

 

 

 

Edited by dwai
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Depends on your lineage.¬† These neidan notions¬†are¬†the ‚Äúfoundation‚ÄĚ (ti ťęĒ ) and the ‚Äúoperation‚ÄĚ (yong ÁĒ® ) of one another.¬† The¬†Southern¬†(Nanzong Śćó Śģó ) schools¬†give¬†precedence to the cultivation of ming, and the Northern¬†(Beizong ŚĆóŚģó ) emphazise¬†the cultivation of xing.¬† And to top it off,¬†the ‚Äúconjoined cultivation of xing and ming‚ÄĚ (xingming shuangxiu śÄß ŚĎĹťõôšŅģ ) is much discussed in both.¬†

 

So it basically becomes the question of temporal sequence -- which one between xing and ming is seen as the basis for cultivating the other in order to realize both.  Some schools see the cultivation of life as the prerequisite (my favorite quote capturing this attitude is not from taoism but from essentially "taoesque" Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Stand up and live before you sit down and write" -- which can be applied to "before you sit down and cultivate").  Others believe that cultivation of heart-mind is necessary first for the life realizing itself harmoniously.  Chicken and egg problem. 

 

Personally, I believe in a kind of yo-yo cultivation of now xing, now ming, where every next stage of one (doesn't matter which) informs the next stage of the other and helps it arrive at a new level -- ultimately both arriving at a new level with every such "upgrade."  Experientially, that's how it goes for most modern cultivators.  If you focus on one exclusively, you lose perspective of the other, thereby  losing traction of either xing or ming and, consequently, and somewhat paradoxically, both --  attending to just one is not unlikely to impede the other and thereby be impeded itself. 

 

I believe doing it the way tao does it is best.  "Leaving the world and coming into the world."  Being in the world, leaving the world.  Leaving the world behind, manifesting in the world again.  Many taoist sages, reportedly, often did it like that too.  Even Laozi. :) 

 

The modern real-life sequence is usually "ming before xing" -- unless otherwise predestined.

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Ming and Xing, Xing and Ming, I remember when I was reading a Daoist Classic every couple of paragraphs I'd thought: wait a min. which one is Xing and Ming again? :lol:

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Xing is "Original nature or True Nature", and lies in the domain of consciousness. Its root is the spiritual heart/MDT.

 

 

Isn't Xing related to Yuan Shen? I thought it was rooted in UDT. What is the Chinese word of the spiritual heart you're referring to?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Ming is the" Life force or Qi", and lies in the domain of energy, and its root is the Lower Dan tien.

 

I think Ming is also related to Jing. Are you thinking about Yuan Qi when you say Qi?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Practices like Qigong work on Ming. Xing needs more intricate (and simpler) forms of meditation wherein emphasis is not on cultivation and "adding to" (jing, qi and Shen) and/or "transformation" (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen), but rather of letting go and reduction/elimination (of artificial mental concepts, preconceptions and even subject-object interactions, aka Shen to Emptiness). 

 

But when you' practicing Qigong you're also working with Xing even if it's indirect work, no?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Ming requires/implies "you wei" or doing, while Xing requires "wu wei" or not-doing.  But the two are not mutually exclusive, but rather parts of a continuum. Without proper cultivation of Ming, Xing cannot be realized(?). 

 

What would you say are the results of Ming Gong?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

We have to go from doing to not-doing, effort to effortlessness. All it takes is patience, sincerity and clarity of mind. 

 

There's the possibility you can "Wu Wei all the way" from start to finish.

I think ultimately Xing and Ming might be One.

Edited by KuroShiro
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20 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Ming and Xing, Xing and Ming, I remember when I was reading a Daoist Classic every couple of paragraphs I'd thought: wait a min. which one is Xing and Ming again? :lol:

Marblehead used to often write about Xing and Ming. Always confused me too :D 

Quote

 

Isn't Xing related to Yuan Shen? I thought it was rooted in UDT. What is the Chinese word of the spiritual heart you're referring to?

I wrote that from practical experience. It is the spiritual heart in the center of the chest. This is where the mind rises out of. 

 

Prof Google tells me that Xing comes from the combination of Xin and Sheng. 

Quote

 

I think Ming is also related to Jing. Are you thinking about Yuan Qi when you say Qi?

Yes.

Quote

 

 

But when you' practicing Qigong you're also working with Xing even if it's indirect work, no?

I guess it does...but most people don't go beyond physicality even. 

Quote

 

What would you say are the results of Ming Gong?

Clarity of the mind/stillness of mind. That leads to Self-realization via Xing gong. 

Quote

 

There's the possibility you can "Wu Wei all the way" from start to finish.

That should indeed be the way. But as Taomeow said, in the modern world....

Quote

I think ultimately Xing and Ming might be One.

I agree. I think root of Qi is Shen. Shen is awareness, Qi is its activity. 

Edited by dwai
clarification
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A contradiction: "xing cannot be realised" but you also say "xing is in the heart" or "you can wu wei all the way (as in you can ming all the way)" ....

 

In my opinion, xing isn't in any part of the body or part of bodily cells. It is outside the body or timespace because it is the spirit. To clarify, preheaven as well as postheaven seem to be bodily focused area/level of mind IMO, so they are both ming. After all, too much sex depleted preheaven as it does with postheaven, doesn't it? body energy!

 

So again to what I said above, if it is a bodily thing you are realising it, you go deeper in consciousness.

 

So xing would be more like trauma, for example^ too much sex, depletes ming .. or exercises ming (bodily) power while it can help release xing trauma...or watching yourself/everything in your daily life and you find yourself in what you do and say. You find the same thing you had seen maybe when you were a child.

 

 

-----------

Also, about Wei Wu Wei, how can you perform a non action from a level of mind or awareness that is still fuelled by, sustained by and rooted in the body? Xing must be like pure space.

 

So in Nei-Ye it say "it accumulates in the chest of the sages", so rather it expresses itself in the physical world through the chest than being 'stored' there or anything that would imply you can 'move' it around the body, etc.

 

Xing has to be in your other lifetimes/souls as it is here untinted, effortlessly, like the Dao.

 

Edited by EmeraldHead

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On 12.11.2019 at 8:08 PM, dwai said:

Seeking some feedback on the following. Please feel free to post your thoughts/comments (please be concise and to the point if possible. If you write a 1000+ word essay, it makes my eyes glaze over and avoid reading it. :) ) --

 

Xing is "Original nature or True Nature", and lies in the domain of consciousness. Its root is the spiritual heart/MDT.

 

Ming is the" Life force or Qi", and lies in the domain of energy, and its root is the Lower Dan tien.

 

Practices like Qigong work on Ming. Xing needs more intricate (and simpler) forms of meditation wherein emphasis is not on cultivation and "adding to" (jing, qi and Shen) and/or "transformation" (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen), but rather of letting go and reduction/elimination (of artificial mental concepts, preconceptions and even subject-object interactions, aka Shen to Emptiness). 

 

Ming requires/implies "you wei" or doing, while Xing requires "wu wei" or not-doing.  But the two are not mutually exclusive, but rather parts of a continuum. Without proper cultivation of Ming, Xing cannot be realized(?). 

 

We have to go from doing to not-doing, effort to effortlessness. All it takes is patience, sincerity and clarity of mind. 

 

 

 

Hi!

 

Problem with this understanding is that it reflects modern daoist understanding. In neidan schools with full method it makes no sense. So i will write from that view.(not many daoists schools still have real ming methods today).

 

Qi gong is not a ming method. Ming is yuan jing/yuan chi the life battery and it can only be replenished with alchemical methods. Because these are pre-heaven energies (another name for pre-heaven would be pre-creational) and they cannot be accessed with qi gong. the qi /life force is post heaven (or within creation). MIng is not in the ldt but somehow ascociated (as these energies are before creation) with it and the kidneys.

 

Xing is yuan shen in neidan. It is ascociated with the Upper dantien. what is in the heart is the xin (not xing) the heart nature. Xing will express itself through the heart though.

There can not be a real xing first in neidan......but ming must always come first because of how the neidan process works (it is one process only but with very different approaches from one school/lineage to another). In neidan xing cannot be realised until ming is replenished and flowing.

It is said some schools do xing first, but that is usually more a xin first (clearing the heart mind) before doing ming and then xing.

 

You cannot realise the xing fully (as it is understood in orthodox neidan lineages) without ming...just not possible. In fact there are neidan lineages which are constant ming gong (which automatically leads to xing realisation and achievement of dao)....this means that is a system of constant doing and when one is done....there is automatic wuwei. True alchemy works with mechanisms that are not used in other spiritual tradtions and because of that cannot be compared to them.

 

In orthodox neidan lineages there is usually nothing like sitting meditation. There maybe sitting exercises but they usually involve hand movements etc.....just silent sitting is used in neidan forms that usually do not have the full method or it is used in very high stages (after the elixir is achieved).

 

hope that helps!

All the best!

Michael

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37 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi!

 

Problem with this understanding is that it reflects modern daoist understanding. In neidan schools with full method it makes no sense. So i will write from that view.(not many daoists schools still have real ming methods today).

 

Qi gong is not a ming method. Ming is yuan jing/yuan chi the life battery and it can only be replenished with alchemical methods. Because these are pre-heaven energies (another name for pre-heaven would be pre-creational) and they cannot be accessed with qi gong. the qi /life force is post heaven (or within creation). MIng is not in the ldt but somehow ascociated (as these energies are before creation) with it and the kidneys.

 

Xing is yuan shen in neidan. It is ascociated with the Upper dantien. what is in the heart is the xin (not xing) the heart nature. Xing will express itself through the heart though.

There can not be a real xing first in neidan......but ming must always come first because of how the neidan process works (it is one process only but with very different approaches from one school/lineage to another). In neidan xing cannot be realised until ming is replenished and flowing.

It is said some schools do xing first, but that is usually more a xin first (clearing the heart mind) before doing ming and then xing.

 

You cannot realise the xing fully (as it is understood in orthodox neidan lineages) without ming...just not possible. In fact there are neidan lineages which are constant ming gong (which automatically leads to xing realisation and achievement of dao)....this means that is a system of constant doing and when one is done....there is automatic wuwei. True alchemy works with mechanisms that are not used in other spiritual tradtions and because of that cannot be compared to them.

 

In orthodox neidan lineages there is usually nothing like sitting meditation. There maybe sitting exercises but they usually involve hand movements etc.....just silent sitting is used in neidan forms that usually do not have the full method or it is used in very high stages (after the elixir is achieved).

 

hope that helps!

All the best!

Michael

Can you share some examples of schools that teach the "full method"?

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15 hours ago, dwai said:

Can you share some examples of schools that teach the "full method"?

Hi!

 

I will define full method first. Schools that have the methods to replenish considerably amounts of yuan jing/chi. (there are schools that think this is impossible and some that have weakened forms of this, meaning they can replenish some but it is extremely time consuming or has a high chance of producing problems etc.) because if you have the knowledge of these methods it shapes how one approaches the rest of the practice.

 

Three i know: the 2 schools that the russians represent (yuxian pai and wuliu pai.....interesting here is that there are branches of wuliu who do not have a full ming method; these 2 schools have extremly strong ming methods)...and a private (mountain) longmen lineage where i have trained in.

There are some other more private lineages in china that still have that (i have heard that Zhang Boduans lineage is still alive and has very powerful ming methods).

 

I would guess that Wang Lipings system has some of that (Nathan Brine will put out a series of books beginning in Feburary 2020 so we can see this system)

quianfengpai has some of that (the lineage from which the famous "taoist yoga" book comes...which is just a part of an manual of that school).

another guess would be that Li Shifu from 5 immortals temple knows some of that too.

 

best

 

 

Edited by MIchael80
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To old guys/ ladies, say those over 60 , of course cultivating Ming is their priority . Theory about Ming is also much easier to grasp as they are related to things like  what postures better , which dantian to start, what time give you most effects , ways of breathing..etc. That means,  old people should handle thing more urgent ,  use things more handy  so as lengthen their life span for decades ,say up to 100,  so that  after retirement  they get the time and energy  to explore Xing . Understanding Xing is much difficult and there is no guarantee, but once people  get it ,   all Ming's problems become easy.

Edited by exorcist_1699
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7 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

To old guys/ ladies, say those over 60 , of course cultivating Ming is their priority . Theory about Ming is also much easier to grasp as they are related to things like  what postures better , which dantian to start, what time give you most effects , ways of breathing..etc. That means,  old people should handle something more urgent ,  use something more handy  so as lengthen their life span for decades ,say up to 100,  so that  after retirement  they get the time to explore Xing . Understanding Xing is much difficult and there is no guarantee, but once people  get it ,   all Ming's problems become easy.

The way i see it, Xing should be a natural progression from Ming cultivation. Not strictly sequential, but overlapping once one gets to the intermediate level of ming cultivation. As Ming cultivation matures, it leads to greater mental clarity, thereby allowing the practitioner to start grasping Xing. 

 

And this is not unique to Daoist traditions either -- it is similar for Yoga/Tantra and other dharmic practices.

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On 12/5/2019 at 12:27 AM, dwai said:

.. As Ming cultivation matures, it leads to greater mental clarity, thereby allowing the practitioner to start grasping Xing. 

 

And this is not unique to Daoist traditions either -- it is similar for Yoga/Tantra and other dharmic practices.

 

Yeah. But I know not much about other Yoga/Tantra and other dharmic practices. Maybe they have their unique expressions.

 

 

Edited by exorcist_1699

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