TheCove

Mantras

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You may disagree, but it was what I was taught. Perhaps your teachers are different. What I found striking was the agreement of teachers from two traditions: Shaiva tantra and Vajrayana. The most thorough explanation came from Shaiva tantra. In that tradition, the mantra is the sound body of a deity. Apparently, Abhinavagupta wrote that a mantra was not unlike a statute of a deity. If the statute is not properly consecrated and infused with prana, then the statute is not "living" so to speak. Similarly, a mantra needs to be infused by the power of some one who it has awakened for. Otherwise, the mantra is dead and is not, in fact, the sound body of the deity. Accordingly, it could not be transmitted via writing. I imagine the problem is compounded if one is trying to learn a mantra but is not familiar with the language of that mantra (e.g. Sankrit, Tibetan, etc.). 

 

It makes sense, because these things were oral traditions long before they were written down. I think there is a lot of resistance to the idea that we need to learn these things from other people. But people can do what they like. 

 

3 hours ago, Mandrake said:

 

For mantras and dharanis found in sutras, no;  for mantras in the Mantrayana, yes.

 

 

M

 

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16 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

You may disagree, but it was what I was taught. Perhaps your teachers are different. What I found striking was the agreement of teachers from two traditions: Shaiva tantra and Vajrayana. The most thorough explanation came from Shaiva tantra. In that tradition, the mantra is the sound body of a deity. Apparently, Abhinavagupta wrote that a mantra was not unlike a statute of a deity. If the statute is not properly consecrated and infused with prana, then the statute is not "living" so to speak. Similarly, a mantra needs to be infused by the power of some one who it has awakened for. Otherwise, the mantra is dead and is not, in fact, the sound body of the deity. Accordingly, it could not be transmitted via writing. I imagine the problem is compounded if one is trying to learn a mantra but is not familiar with the language of that mantra (e.g. Sankrit, Tibetan, etc.). 

 

It makes sense, because these things were oral traditions long before they were written down. I think there is a lot of resistance to the idea that we need to learn these things from other people. But people can do what they like. 

 

 

 

Forestofemptiness,

 

The teacher comes first, so you follow your ones, and I'll follow what my Vajrayana and Buddhist teachers have mentioned on the topic. And on that matter, what Shaivist sources say have absolutely no bearing on my traditions, at all.

 

 

M

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Well, that's a strong statement. I'm not a Shaivite, but to say the sources have "absolutely no bearing" is a bit much. There is plenty of evidence of the overlap between the two Tantras, and even evidence that Shaiva Tantras and practices were often incorporated into Buddhism by merely changing the names. Not that I expect to change any minds. 

 

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis

 

https://www.academia.edu/3621440/The_Śaiva_Age_The_Rise_and_Dominance_of_Śaivism_during_the_Early_Medieval_Period._In_Genesis_and_Development_of_Tantrism_edited_by_Shingo_Einoo._Tokyo_Institute_of_Oriental_Culture_University_of_Tokyo_2009._Institute_of_Oriental_Culture_Special_Series_23_pp._41-350

 

https://www.academia.edu/24115448/_Converting_the_Ḍākinī_Goddess_Cults_and_Tantras_of_the_Yoginīs_between_Buddhism_and_Śaivism_

 

3 hours ago, Mandrake said:

 

Forestofemptiness,

 

The teacher comes first, so you follow your ones, and I'll follow what my Vajrayana and Buddhist teachers have mentioned on the topic. And on that matter, what Shaivist sources say have absolutely no bearing on my traditions, at all.

 

 

M

 

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Forestofemptiness,

 

I'm a cultivator before else, not a scholar.
For Daoist cultivation, I got to Daoist masters. For Vajrayana, I go to those masters and the wisdom and experience they embody. And so on.

 

 

M

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I don't see the two as mutually exclusive--- there are plenty of scholar warriors and scholar yogis out there, not that I would rate myself among them. But plenty of religious people don't like to consider evidence outside of their particular tradition or a determined set of authorities, so that's cool too. I am something of a contrarian. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Mandrake said:

Forestofemptiness,

 

I'm a cultivator before else, not a scholar.
For Daoist cultivation, I got to Daoist masters. For Vajrayana, I go to those masters and the wisdom and experience they embody. And so on.

 

 

M

 

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On 21/05/2020 at 7:46 PM, forestofemptiness said:

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive--- there are plenty of scholar warriors and scholar yogis out there, not that I would rate myself among them. But plenty of religious people don't like to consider evidence outside of their particular tradition or a determined set of authorities, so that's cool too. I am something of a contrarian. 

 

 

 

 

Never have I said that they are mutually exclusive. Neither have I said that I'm not a scholar. Neither have I mentioned that I haven't studied Shaivist sources and those of other traditions. Cultivation isn't a trivial matter for me, and after two decades of learning and studying and practicing I definitely have heard and processed a large share of the viewpoints out there.
So if "plenty of religious people don't like to consider evidence outside of their particular tradition" then it's their issue; I don't consider myself one of them. These posts are a digression anyway as they touch on my own cultivation of which nobody here knows more than a fragment apart from their own projections.

 

My statement was that mantras do not necessarily require empowerment depending on their source. I base this on my experience, on my lineages,  and my previous studies including other margas. I can further state that I'm also of the opinion that the source of power of Buddhist mantras is different than that of the non-buddhist Indian lineages.

Lastly, I also stated that lamas/gurus don't necessarily know everything, as in my earlier post.

 

 

M

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On 10/30/2019 at 1:47 PM, TheCove said:

Greetings,

 

I am curious about Mantras.

 

Would it be correct to consider them having strength because of the many through out the ages empowered them so?

Would be correct to consider them having strength because the tones reflect universal vibrations of reality?

 

Also what are some good three or four syllable ones?

 

I would like to use them for stillness and clarity.  My mind can go very fast and in many directions, this gets tiresome.

 

Thank you for any info.

 

TheCove

 

Try the following free resources and see if it helps.

 

Mantras Explained - Benefits of Chanting Mantras and the Science Behind It

 

and

 

Nada Yoga: The Science of Sound

 

 

Quote

Sadhguru gives us a fascinating insight into the wonderful language, Sanskrit: “If you have mastery over the sound, you will also have mastery over the form.

 

and

 

 

 

For your specific question of quieting the mind I would recommend the following as it sets you up for experiencing causeless joy in the body and mind you have now as long as you keep at it - or if you fall off the wagon you keep getting right back on at every opportunity.

 

 

and

 

 

 

and for quieting the mind - which this kriya will take time but I can personally vouch that it works:

 

 

 

and finally so that you can build a strong Ida and Pingala which also helps quiet the mind:

 

 

 

Definitely recommend some type of simple joyful physical exercise at least a few minutes a day as well as stretching a few minutes a day if you don't already do so. Eventually simple stretches can be developed into their own specialized discipline alongside Qigong/Neigong or Yoga. The traditional Chinese fascia discipline is Jibengong and the traditional Yoga/Tantric equivalent is Angamardana.

 

See:

 

Angamardana – Mastering Your Limbs

 

One of many reasons for Jibengong/Angamardana can be read in the following:

 

Issuing Power into the Physical: The Role of Connective Tissue

 

 

Quote

Excerpt:

 

As the primary transmission route in the body, training the connective tissue tends to reinforce the health as well. It is noted for making sick men healthy, weak men strong and generating a very potent detoxification effect in those with poor lifestyle habits.


What is not so well understood is the role of the physical-astral matrix and the astral-mental matrix in all of this.

Both of these are energetically refined forms of connective, or fasciae, tissue. They act to transmit power back and forth from the mental realm into the astral into the physical. This is why frequent training of the connective tissue via the electric, and magnetic, exercises is so important toward the ability of a practitioner to work their art.

 

It is also why practitioner who do this kind of work are frequently described as forces of nature on a physical level. Socrates running naked through snow drifts, Musashi’s fashioning a wooden sword out an oar before slaughtering a whole school of rivals and similar events are all a result of this.

 

It is also why people who fail to perform this training largely engage in astral projection and achieve little else outside “energy healing” and delusion.

 

 

 

Best wishes  :)

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