Occultism vs. shamanism, as usual: a Siberian shaman is arrested for trying to exorcise the "evil spirit" from the Kremlin

[Taomeow]

Of course, we live in the age of the global triumph of black magicians and occult forces, whose servants have been implanted on every earthly throne.  Few shamans remain, after millennia of massacres, who are still trying to resist the diabolical tide against overwhelming odds.   The occultists don't take them lightly though.  It took road blocks and 40 armed members of the special forces to surround and kidnap the Siberian shaman Alexander Gabyshev who was walking from Buryatia, Siberia, toward Moscow, covering 1,7000 miles on foot so far, with the goal of performing a ritual to banish Putin from the Kremlin.  Here's a bit in English on the event that took place on September 19th, as presented by The Guardian:    

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/19/siberian-shaman-arrested-on-trek-to-exorcise-vladimir-putin

 

[Everything]

Peace.

[Nungali]

Years back, we went to Sydney to join in protest against  attempt at implementing 'The National Resource  Package legislation'  ( which basically means that anything considered a national resource  -  coal, oil, land ... anything  -  can over ride any existing legislation that protects it  - ecological, land rights,   environment, pollution, etc    laws -  we surrounded the building where the meeting was  with a large number of people  and started circling around it and chanting "Out Demons"  .. I think  it spooked them .... going by the faces looking out the windows .

 

Then later that afternoon the protests went to  Parliament House where they where attempting to  ass the legislation they had worked on. Things got a little  .....  over the top ... and the police moved in to arrest us. But just then , other  members of parliament  came out on to the steps and instructed the police to go inside and arrest some members who where breaking the law inside , by attempting to snowball the legislation through and not to arrest us, who where upholding the law.  Police got confused , so no one got arrested .

 

One thing I did notice though, when we first arrived and set up a 'base camp' in Hyde Park ( with tents and campfires ) the police freaked and ordered an immediate pack up and leave - we be back later and if anything here we confiscate it, or anyone loitering will be arrested .  We where wondering what to do and this  mob of Aboriginals turned up, added their camp on to ours and raised their flag .

 

When the police came back they  looked shocked and  asked them what they where doing. After the explanation they asked how long they planned to stay. the Aboriginals said they would be gone before the weekend  and the police said okay and left .

 

   W .... T   .....  F   ...  ! 

 

Thats when I decided to throw my lot in with them, instead of the hippies .

 

 

 

On a lesser note ;

 

 

 

But all that changed in round 4. St Kilda defeated Collingwood at Victoria Park and Nicky Winmar famously stuck it up the Magpie racists when he lifted his jumper and pointed to his skin as he walked from field.

Immediately afterwards, Allan McAlister put his foot in his mouth when he said, "As long as Nicky Winmar behaves well, like a white person, then all the people at Collingwood will show him respect"

There was a furore. People everywhere attacked the Collingwood Prez. Aboriginal leaders called for an apology, which McAlister resisted against, believing he was misquoted or misunderstood. This dragged out for two weeks. It was big news at the time.

An indigenous tribal elder made front page headlines when he "pointed the bone" and placed a curse on the Magpies. People thought it was a bit of a joke, even though the elder was deadly serious and not the crackpot that many believed.

And from that moment, things just fell apart for Collingwood. Their season unravelled. They lost their next six games in a row. It seemed like every week, 3 or 4 of their players succumbed to injury: soft tissue, knees, broken bones, you name it. In the blink of an eye, their season became a nightmare. The Magpies tumbled from the top 4 to the bottom 4 (4th to 12th) and the football world rejoiced in their misery.

Belatedly their President made an apology and the curse was lifted. But the damage had been done. Despite storming home to win 9 of their next 10 games, Collingwood missed out on the the finals by half a game.

True story.

 

https://www.apnews.com/aa7bb43e6d412b03983df18d5c661cf3

[Nungali]

although I dont really understand the Vs bit in the title .

 

In my experience it is the 'occultists' and shamans against oppressors in government and private industry.

 

In the OP it seems  'oppressive government '  Vs anyone associated with a movement  seen to 'threaten' the  current 'establishment' .

[Nungali]

Shaman weapon ;

 

 

 

 

'occultist' weapon

 

[Taomeow]

46 minutes ago, Nungali said:

although I dont really understand the Vs bit in the title .

 

In my experience it is the 'occultists' and shamans against oppressors in government and private industry.

 

In the OP it seems  'oppressive government '  Vs anyone associated with a movement  seen to 'threaten' the  current 'establishment' .

 

I have reasons to believe that

 

1. Only occultist amateurs, who are self-educated or else educated by the self-educated, who try to seek out their path, typically away from this or that religious or atheistic tradition they were born into and were left dissatisfied with, feel that occultism and shamanism are sort of up the same alley, one esoteric brotherhood with common practices and goals.  As opposed to professional occultists, born into occultist bloodlines, who are, and have always been, anti-shamanic and are indeed one esoteric brotherhood in vehement and deadly opposition to the shamanic tradition.

2. Oppressive governments are, and have always been, deeply, expertly, professionally occultist. 

3. Shamanic traditions are not, and have never been, part of oppressive governments.     

 

Reference literature available upon request.   

[sean]

I'm intrigued by this proposed occultist vs shaman opposition as well.

 

Might make sense to loosely define the terms, but I'm understanding occultism to mean the Western Theosophical, Hermetic (Anthroposophical?) traditions vs. shamanism being the animistic traditions of basically every indigenous culture (including witchcraft?). Am I close?

 

Do you feel that there's something inherent to the goals and means of occultism that makes it a tool of oppressive governments and antagonistic to shamanism?

 

In other words, is this organized, more powerful, "professional occultism" the "one true occultism" and self-guided occultists are clueless rubes to the actual real meaning of all their work?

 

Or is it more that occultism is a tool that can be used for good, but also that oppressive regimes prefer for some reasons specific to the tool, while ignoring and antagonizing shamanism for reasons specific to it?

 

Sean

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I have reasons to believe that

 

1. Only occultist amateurs, who are self-educated or else educated by the self-educated, who try to seek out their path, typically away from this or that religious or atheistic tradition they were born into and were left dissatisfied with, feel that occultism and shamanism are sort of up the same alley, one esoteric brotherhood with common practices and goals.  As opposed to professional occultists, born into occultist bloodlines, who are, and have always been, anti-shamanic and are indeed one esoteric brotherhood in vehement and deadly opposition to the shamanic tradition.

2. Oppressive governments are, and have always been, deeply, expertly, professionally occultist. 

3. Shamanic traditions are not, and have never been, part of oppressive governments.     

 

Reference literature available upon request.   

 

Aha , I see .

 

In my case ,  I was  fortunate enough to get involved with an ' anarchistic ' western 'mystery school'   (not that it ever made it immune to claims that it was the opposite ) .   I recently posted this elsewhere here ;

 

LET IT BE KNOWN that there exists, unknown to the great crowd, a very ancient Order of sages, whose object is the amelioration and spiritual evolution of mankind by means of conquering error and aiding men and women in their efforts of attaining the power of recognising the truth. This Order has existed already in the most remote times and it has manifested its activity secretly and openly in the world under different names and in various forms: it has caused social and political revolutions and proved to be the rock of salvation in times of danger and misfortune. It has always upheld the banner of freedom against tyranny in whatever shape this appeared, whether as clerical or political or social despotism or oppression of any kind.

 

Regarding the 'opposition to Shamanism' , I have observed this in some cases , one noticeably from the Golden Dawn   in their book, the section on attribution of  Tarot to the  sphere of the earth ... everything is attributed to the northern hemisphere, the south is relatively blank , a reason is give ; due to its  lack of spirituality and knowledge .    Errrrmmmm    , to a person who is actively studying and practising a shamanic tradition from one of the oldest cultures on the planet ( whose system enabled them to live and survive for over 50.000 years , regardless of floods, droughts, climate change and a massive ocean level  rise ) , I find those Golden dawn comments  rather ...... up their own arse !  

 

 

[Nungali]

49 minutes ago, sean said:

I'm intrigued by this proposed occultist vs shaman opposition as well.

 

Might make sense to loosely define the terms, but I'm understanding occultism to mean the Western Theosophical, Hermetic (Anthroposophical?) traditions vs. shamanism being the animistic traditions of basically every indigenous culture (including witchcraft?). Am I close?

 

I think that is the crux of the issue .   Technically  , occult ;

 

Origin

late 15th century (as a verb): from Latin occultare ‘secrete’, frequentative of occulere ‘conceal’, based on celare ‘to hide’; the adjective and noun from occult- ‘covered over’, from the verb occulere .

 

( even perhaps; the study, observation and putting into practice of  the 'concealed'  or  'not outwardly obvious or known' causes and energies behind things )

 

Has come to the

 

Meaning

 

mystical, supernatural, or magical powers, practices, or phenomena. ( Of which Shamanism is involved with anyway )

 

Now, like 'money' or 'administration' or anything really , it can be put to good or bad uses . Some  good uses (IMO) is using the techniques and practices to reprogramme  improve, liberate and develop the self as an empowered individual . Some bad uses are to use those similar techniques to  programme,  control, oppress and limit individuality so people are a better 'tool of the state' .  No doubt this occurs, and has for a long time . 

 

That is probably what Taomeow's protest is about ?

 

49 minutes ago, sean said:

 

Do you feel that there's something inherent to the goals and means of occultism that makes it a tool of oppressive governments and antagonistic to shamanism?

 

In other words, is this organized, more powerful, "professional occultism" the "one true occultism" and self-guided occultists are clueless rubes to the actual real meaning of all their work?

 

Or is it more that occultism is a tool that can be used for good, but also that oppressive regimes prefer for some reasons specific to the tool, while ignoring and antagonizing shamanism for reasons specific to it?

 

Sean

 

 

(I'm thinking these questions are more directed at Taomeow ?   So ....

[Piyadasi]

10 hours ago, Taomeow said:

3. Shamanic traditions are not, and have never been, part of oppressive governments.    

How about the Shang and Zhou dynasties? Or the Mongols, Khitans, Xiongnu? Or the Vikings/Norsemen? Or Japan (Shinto)? Or the Jurchen Jin (and Later Jin/Qing), where the word apparently originates from? I also recall the Turkic/Iranian/Other peoples coming into Europe in waves and waves being quite oppressive to the 'natives'. See: Bulgars, Magyars, Huns, Beceneks, Avars.. 

 

Or was that occultism? Where does occultism begin and shamanism end?

 

10 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Reference literature available upon request. 

Please share what you think is important to read!

 

Interesting topic, I also have my suspicions..

[forestofclarity]

Well, there are some fairly clear connections between the political right wing and occultism. 

 

Gary Lachman wrote a book all about it, talking about the "occult" influences with Trump and Putin. Many occultists have been a part of their inner circle. Steve Bannon was (to my surprise) a vocal supporter of Julius Evola. Putin has Alexander Dugin. Both Trump and Putin promote a chaotic, "truth is what I say it is" combined with an sense of absolutism that is useful in implementing a strong, facist

type of government. 

 

This is not to say that they are practicing occultists in the traditional sense, but Trump traces many of his ideas to Norman Vincent Peale, who presents a sort of "occultism" for the masses. Mitch Horowitz out the occult influences on America in his book "Occult America." 

 

Both books are fairly straightforward examinations of occult ideas on modern culture and politics.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Star-Rising-Magick-Power/dp/0143132067

 

https://www.amazon.com/Occult-America-Seances-Circles-History/dp/0553385151

 

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

although I dont really understand the Vs bit in the title .

 

In my experience it is the 'occultists' and shamans against oppressors in government and private industry.

 

In the OP it seems  'oppressive government '  Vs anyone associated with a movement  seen to 'threaten' the  current 'establishment' .

 

[ilumairen]

15 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I have reasons to believe that

 

1. Only occultist amateurs, who are self-educated or else educated by the self-educated, who try to seek out their path, typically away from this or that religious or atheistic tradition they were born into and were left dissatisfied with, feel that occultism and shamanism are sort of up the same alley, one esoteric brotherhood with common practices and goals.  As opposed to professional occultists, born into occultist bloodlines, who are, and have always been, anti-shamanic and are indeed one esoteric brotherhood in vehement and deadly opposition to the shamanic tradition.

2. Oppressive governments are, and have always been, deeply, expertly, professionally occultist. 

3. Shamanic traditions are not, and have never been, part of oppressive governments.     

 

Reference literature available upon request.   

 

I would love to see the reference literature you have in mind, for my own curiosities sake.

 

And if I may be so bold as to suggest it seems the esoteric brotherhood, as you describe it, could be considered patriarchal in nature. (Yeah, I just went there..)

Edited September 20, 2019 by ilumairen

[Apech]

I think in principle there is very little difference between 'occult' and 'shamanic', as occult really refers to the hermetic sciences which are a way of exploring reality, understanding it, interacting with it, seen as 'whole' - that is including dimensions beyond the physical objective - i.e. the subtle realms and the realms of power(s).  So both would regard the 'other' realm(s) as being real - accessible - inhabited by intelligencies and entities with which you can interact - explorable as in you can travel there and so on.

 

However the difference might be that whereas the shamans continue to base themselves in the reality of that other world and how to access it - many western occultist tend to get sucked into grand theories and hierarchies which if they were to consider it are obviously a reflection of their own projecting minds, somewhat bedazzling if they are very up themselves and also a bit nasty if their intent is malevolent.  But of course a dodgy shaman will do dodgy things also.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

I think in principle there is very little difference between 'occult' and 'shamanic', as occult really refers to the hermetic sciences which are a way of exploring reality, understanding it, interacting with it, seen as 'whole' - that is including dimensions beyond the physical objective - i.e. the subtle realms and the realms of power(s).  So both would regard the 'other' realm(s) as being real - accessible - inhabited by intelligencies and entities with which you can interact - explorable as in you can travel there and so on.

 

The only real difference there  ^ , then , is that hermetic sciences evolved from Egypt and the 'Alexandrian Synthesis' .  A lot of 'occult stuff' has varied origins including indigenous and folk traditions .

 

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

However the difference might be that whereas the shamans continue to base themselves in the reality of that other world and how to access it - many western occultist tend to get sucked into grand theories and hierarchies which if they were to consider it are obviously a reflection of their own projecting minds, somewhat bedazzling if they are very up themselves and also a bit nasty if their intent is malevolent.  But of course a dodgy shaman will do dodgy things also.

 

Indeed ....  I have heard some stories here (in Oz)  about 'bad Kadiacha '    that would curl your toes !

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

21 hours ago, sean said:

I'm intrigued by this proposed occultist vs shaman opposition as well.

 

Might make sense to loosely define the terms, but I'm understanding occultism to mean the Western Theosophical, Hermetic (Anthroposophical?) traditions vs. shamanism being the animistic traditions of basically every indigenous culture (including witchcraft?). Am I close?

 

 

Occultism is way older, not particularly Western in its origins, and, like shamanism  (which is much older), almost universal -- but at a different stage of our history. 

 

Shamanism ends with the city-state phase of social innovation, as tribal and nomadic life gets gradually or abruptly, and in most cases thoroughly and irreversibly, replaced by the agricultural Sun-King empires.  From there the sun of occultism rises, heralding the dawn of modern history.  From there it unfolds its "tales of power."  Shamanism is not concerned with power for the sake of power --  whether for an individual as occultism does with its king, priest, sorcerer,  or a group whose interests coincide on the goal of a power grab explicitly toward, or else invariably leading to, its abuse. 

 

In fact, these are the two consecutive main currents through our history:  the natural human collective, i.e. a tribe, versus an individual (or an individual heading a group of minions toward the same power-grabbing goals) climbing on top of the natural human collective and reshaping, intermixing or dissolving, demolishing or abolishing, converting by force or by cunning, this natural group  into something else: slaves.  Sheeple.  With the shepherd on top.  

 

This is the core difference between shamanism and occultism -- despite a bunch of similarities between them and despite a bunch of widely dissimilar practices and methods within each.   Siberian shamanism and African shamanism, on the surface, are quite different, and by the same token occult Voodoo sorcery and occult Jesuit secret societies may seem very dissimilar.  Yet at the core of the first two is the shaman as the intermediary between the tribe and the spirit world, serving the tribe -- in the second two cases, the sorcerer, priest, General serving themselves and their own power-amassing goals.   

 

I have this in my notes, from an article I liked and lost: 

This shift is by no means in nomenclature alone. While the shaman's task was to negotiate between the tribe and the spirit world, on behalf of the tribe, as directed by the collective will of the tribe, the priest's role was to transfer instructions from the deities to the city-state, on behalf of the deities, as directed by the will of those deities. This shift represents the first major usurpation of power by distancing magic from those participating in that magic. It is at this stage of development that highly codified and elaborate rituals, setting the stage for formal religions, began to emerge, such as the funeral rites of the Egyptians and the sacrifice rituals of the Babylonians, Persians, Aztecs and Mayans.

(to be continued when time allows  ) 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

I like a lot of this post, but some I dont agree with ;

 

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Occultism is way older, not particularly Western in its origins, and, like shamanism  (which is much older), almost universal -- but at a different stage of our history. 

 

Shamanism ends with the city-state phase of social innovation, as tribal and nomadic life gets gradually or abruptly, and in most cases thoroughly and irreversibly, replaced by the agricultural Sun-King empires.  From there the sun of occultism rises, heralding the dawn of modern history.  From there it unfolds its "tales of power."  Shamanism is not concerned with power for the sake of power --  whether for an individual as occultism does with its king, priest, sorcerer,  or a group whose interests coincide on the goal of a power grab explicitly toward, or else invariably leading to, its abuse. 

 

That's a valid point .  We talked about this before , about how (just in Europe, for example )  there where HUGE settlements of people living in egalitarian, unfortified, matriarchal type cultures  that seem to have been replaced by invasive 'Indo-Europeans '  with patriarchal, warlord ruled, fortified cultures , involved heavily in animal husbandry ( my theory is  that this gave the impetus towards  slavery; some 'bright spark thought , ' Hmmmm.... If I can get an  animal to do that,   then maybe ....  " )       ... and citied the archaeologist   Marija Gimbutas.

 

 for those that are unfamiliar;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology

 

... and gave the impetus towards 'raid and run ' ( eg on horseback) cultures - see below .

 

Quote

 

In fact, these are the two consecutive main currents through our history:  the natural human collective, i.e. a tribe, versus an individual (or an individual heading a group of minions toward the same power-grabbing goals) climbing on top of the natural human collective and reshaping, intermixing or dissolving, demolishing or abolishing, converting by force or by cunning, this natural group  into something else: slaves.  Sheeple.  With the shepherd on top.  

 

So in these older cultures we see war and conflict, but it is a totally different concept .  War here (in my area, traditionally ) was two parallel lines of men face off, they throw spears at each other . Eventually one side gives up .  Or , maybe some individuals will choose to enter into 1 on 1 combat with shields and clubs when all spears have been thrown .  And thats it .    The winning side doesnt go on and kill all the other men remaining , attack and kill their women and children ,  burn down their shelters and kill their dingoes and pelicans  ( their domestic pets ) , go out and slaughter all their kangaroos in their 'fields and runs ' , burn their land and crops  ( yes crops)  and then salt the earth.  ... and then run away  (or gallop away or sail  away )  because they could not run away .  They would have killed people, places animals and crops that they where somehow  reliant on or connected to   - not so once people learnt to ride horses and sail ships .  That would be unthinkable and considered insane.  And besides  ( and I will get to this utmost important point below )  it would be against the Law .

 

And even just  legal war seems to have been  wrong .... I mean, why start a war in the first place ? !  

 

[  -  A diversion

There is a great local story here (now published, so its in the public domain) , a Gumbaynggirr  ( the area that I live in ) story about war with the Bundjalung  ( the area my teacher comes from) . As far as I can make out ;   Gumbaynggirr 'have' the Moon Man  and he says get everyone together for a war with the Bundjalung and messages are sent out  to G's and B's ,  so G's come from all over G area and B's  start to gather on the border  and they meet somewhere in G area . They line up opposite and start throwing spears at each other  and defending  with shields and dancing ( avoiding the others spears / making a hard target .  Then Moon Man does a 'magic throw' but his spear turns and twists in flight 'like a boomerang' and weaves in and out all the B's missing them and comes around in big curve and hits Moon Man in his own arse .  ( Well, what's the lesson there ! I wonder ) . That ends the war, but now Moon Man has a spear in the butt and its given him 'the runs'  and he can't walk -  'Hey brother I can't walk, carry me back on your shoulders.'  ...  ' No,   you got speared in the (literally 'tail bone' )  and I will get shit all down my back if I carry you  . '   ...  Anyway story goes on , he asks more men, same response , eventually some do help him ... but they get shit down their backs .

 

... again, what's the lesson here ?  Certainly not glorifying war  . ]

 

 

Quote

 

This is the core difference between shamanism and occultism -- despite a bunch of similarities between them and despite a bunch of widely dissimilar practices and methods within each.   Siberian shamanism and African shamanism, on the surface, are quite different, and by the same token occult Voodoo sorcery and occult Jesuit secret societies may seem very dissimilar.  Yet at the core of the first two is the shaman as the intermediary between the tribe and the spirit world, serving the tribe -- in the second two cases, the sorcerer, priest, General serving themselves and their own power-amassing goals.   

 

I have difficulty relating that last sentence to   Voodoo , especially the type I have had experience with and practice in.  But then again, there are many different types .

 

Quote

 

I have this in my notes, from an article I liked and lost: 

This shift is by no means in nomenclature alone. While the shaman's task was to negotiate between the tribe and the spirit world, on behalf of the tribe, as directed by the collective will of the tribe, the priest's role was to transfer instructions from the deities to the city-state, on behalf of the deities, as directed by the will of those deities. This shift represents the first major usurpation of power by distancing magic from those participating in that magic. It is at this stage of development that highly codified and elaborate rituals, setting the stage for formal religions, began to emerge, such as the funeral rites of the Egyptians and the sacrifice rituals of the Babylonians, Persians, Aztecs and Mayans.

(to be continued when time allows  ) 

 

 

The bit I blued is the bit I have a problem with , For me it isnt valid and does not hold up, so I cant accept the theory .

 

Here, a Shaman does  have some roles  as described in the blue bit ; people can come to him , or a group can come to him and ask for something or how something should be done , he will consult with 'the other world' and give an answer , so in that case the blued bit is valid .

 

Yet in cases of LAW  it is NOT directed by the will of an individual or a whole tribe . The Gods made and hold the Law and instruct what it is. With Law, there is no  ' negotiation  between the tribe and the spirit world, on behalf of the tribe, as directed by the collective will of the tribe'.    The only thing like negotiation is already in built to Law . Eg.   ( to make it simple ) You must not touch this food stored here , you go in there and hunt, you will get hunted and speared !  .... unless , due to very special circumstances, conditions,  certain exceptions may be  allowed  - see your local Shaman .

 

So part of their work, here anyway,  is like the red bit  above ;  transfer instructions from the deities to the city-state, people, group, tribe, etc. on behalf of the deities, as directed by the will of those deities .. ... or   severe punishments are enacted . .... sometimes instantly and on the spot .

 

And they also have VERY codified and elaborate rituals .   But  NO sacrificial culture .

 

As I said this before , this is in my experience,   here , and there are different types of Shamanism . But here we have an example of how things where done a LOOONG time ago .... WAY before the neolithic and the beginning of farming and animal husbandry in Europe or Egypt   ( eg bread making here was 1000s of years before that done in Egypt , yet Egypt  is still  touted as 'the worlds first bakers' . )

 

Spoiler

Internet search;

 

According to history, the earliest bread was made in or around 8000 BC in the Middle East, specifically Egypt. The quern was the first known grinding tool. Grain was crushed and the bakers produced what we now commonly recognize in its closest form as chapatis (India) or tortillas (Mexico).

 

Australian Museum site reveals :

 

Reliance on the seeds became more pronounced in the Holocene – the recent, post-ice-age period - but some archaeological sites, such as Cuddie Springs contain grinding stones dated to about 30,000 years. These stones were used to grind wild seeds into flour which in turn was baked as bread. They were and continue to be found in large numbers on numerous Aboriginal sites across the country

...

 

Sure, this was bush bread, resembling damper in method and pita or Egyptian bread in its form. Ethnographic and archaeological evidence show the baker’s tradition well entrenched in Aboriginal cultures, especially in the arid regions, which make up about three quarters of the country.

 

- also we have historical record of first Euro explorers being lost, starving and dying of thirst in a 'desert' , coming over a hill and seeing fields of stacked grain, numerous Aboriginals at work harvesting and being approached  by them  and giving the explorers water and ' delicious cakes and roast duck' .

 

 

Mmmmmm ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....  'Peking Duck'      

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some may note some of what I wrote about above does not apply to South America ; no horses , ships or means of fast far escape , yet slavery and sacrificial culture evolved .

 

Maybe, like me being more familiar with Australian Shamanism, the author of the piece you cited was more familiar with American Shamanism and based his  general shaman theory on that ?

Edited September 21, 2019 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

I think in principle there is very little difference between 'occult' and 'shamanic', as occult really refers to the hermetic sciences which are a way of exploring reality, understanding it, interacting with it, seen as 'whole' - that is including dimensions beyond the physical objective - i.e. the subtle realms and the realms of power(s).  So both would regard the 'other' realm(s) as being real - accessible - inhabited by intelligencies and entities with which you can interact - explorable as in you can travel there and so on.

 

Indeed. Both occultism and shamanism are approaches towards "the other world". Jeremy Naydler's book Shamanic Wisdom in the Pyramid Texts: The Mystical Tradition of Ancient Egypt demonstrated in academic terms what occultists knew all along.

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

However the difference might be that whereas the shamans continue to base themselves in the reality of that other world and how to access it - many western occultist tend to get sucked into grand theories and hierarchies which if they were to consider it are obviously a reflection of their own projecting minds, somewhat bedazzling if they are very up themselves and also a bit nasty if their intent is malevolent.  But of course a dodgy shaman will do dodgy things also.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

However, it seems fair to say that occultism leans more towards a rational understanding of "the other world" whereas shamanism emphasizes its (subjective-mystical) experience. There is a reason for the term occult sciences...

 

In ancient Egypt, those complementary approaches may have been represented by Thoth (Hermes Trismegistos, the legendary founder of occultism) and Anubis (being the archetypal soul guide) respectively. Their mystery schools may each have laid their emphasis accordingly.

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Michael Sternbach

[Earl Grey]

Responding specifically to the article (and enjoying the rest of the discussion with popcorn, seriously--white cheddar and sour cream and onion powders and some Extra Virgin Olive Oil), I believe that the shaman successfully performed his ritual even if he didn't make it inside the Kremlin.

 

Alea Iacta Est. 

[Nungali]

The rival Shaman

 

from 7 :15

 

 

 

[sean]

On 9/20/2019 at 6:16 PM, Taomeow said:

From there the sun of occultism rises, heralding the dawn of modern history.  From there it unfolds its "tales of power." 

...

Yet at the core of the first two is the shaman as the intermediary between the tribe and the spirit world, serving the tribe -- in the second two cases, the sorcerer, priest, General serving themselves and their own power-amassing goals.   

 

On 9/20/2019 at 11:45 AM, Apech said:

However the difference might be that whereas the shamans continue to base themselves in the reality of that other world and how to access it - many western occultist tend to get sucked into grand theories and hierarchies which if they were to consider it are obviously a reflection of their own projecting minds, somewhat bedazzling if they are very up themselves and also a bit nasty if their intent is malevolent.

 

(All bold emphasis above, my own.)

 

Very interesting.

 

So occultism, distinct from shamanism, seems to aim or at least gravitate toward grandiosity, hierarchy and personal power inflation.

 

Off-the-cuff, another common and related feature seems to be a focus on vertical ascendance. Whereas shamanism seems more grounded, rooted, tortile. 🐍

 

Sean

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, sean said:

 

 

(All bold emphasis above, my own.)

 

Very interesting.

 

So occultism, distinct from shamanism, seems to aim or at least gravitate toward grandiosity, hierarchy and personal power inflation.

 

Off-the-cuff, another common and related feature seems to be a focus on vertical ascendance. Whereas shamanism seems more grounded, rooted, tortile. 🐍

 

Sean

 

 

I don't think that occultism aims towards these things - I think that occultists often do and I imagine this is something to do with the 'culture' of magick and wotnot.  I think in a pure sense occultism is compatible with shamanism.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, sean said:

 

 

(All bold emphasis above, my own.)

 

Very interesting.

 

So occultism, distinct from shamanism, seems to aim or at least gravitate toward grandiosity, hierarchy and personal power inflation.

 

Off-the-cuff, another common and related feature seems to be a focus on vertical ascendance. Whereas shamanism seems more grounded, rooted, tortile. 🐍

 

Sean

 

 

Not sure what you mean by  ' vertical ascendance.'  , but  sone of the earliest Shamanic cave art literally depicts it - the shaman lying on the ground, a line going up from him with the Shaman 'flying' above him connected to the line . Or the same , with other figures climbing up the line .

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

I don't think that occultism aims towards these things - I think that occultists often do and I imagine this is something to do with the 'culture' of magick and wotnot.  I think in a pure sense occultism is compatible with shamanism.

 

Indeed, and as cited earlier occultism is a very general term for a lot of things .  

 

An occultist can be a person like Colin Wilson ( author ) , Crowley, LeVay,  Hitler or average dude that is interested in and reads up on the subject.

[sean]

I think what I meant is an emphasis or even primacy given to a linear-ish conception of a "divine", salvational ascension of some sort. This seems to fit naturally with a self-power accretive, hierarchical cosmology. Most world religions seem invested in some version of this framework as well.

 

Sean