alchemystical

Why do YOU think the world is so messed up?

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2 hours ago, Nungali said:

"Try as hard as you might, but you can't escape challenging situations. They will happen."

But, IMO , that is far cry from  " life has screwed with me big time " .

 

The idea that  " life has screwed with me big time "  is very alien to me .  It might have been thought sometime in the past, when I was indoctrinated with false values . I might have thought that when I was going through the absolute intensity of  2nd Saturn return ( attempt to  seize my land and house by the government resulting in a 2 year supreme court battle and appeal, relationship breakup and denial of seeing children, Ross River fever and arthritic degeneration,  liver problems,  death of three relatives,  a brain embolism ,  a one year wait for a very painful hip replacement ... and I cant remember at the moment all the other stuff !     I could have thought life had turned against me , but I didnt . I just do not have that attitude any more.

 

You wouldn't be faulted for thinking that "life had turned against you" in those hard times.

Anyway, I view the bolded part as simply a matter of semantics. To me, the essential meaning is the same between the two quotes. I don't actually view life as a being that acts upon me...to say "life has screwed with me" is truly just a manner of speaking, and saying that I've been through challenging situations. At least this is my understanding based on where I've been raised and how we use the language.

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2 hours ago, Nungali said:

I sat in on a conversation similar to this, during my work in refugee relocation. people where being positive ( and they refugees ! )  and it had a religious flavour  to it   but this older woman kept  asking if there was a God, why so much suffering ? She got all the usual answers  but still she persisted, people where getting annoyed with her.

 

I detected 'something else' so I offered to the group  " perhaps she has suffered more than we realise, to come to this conclusion ?  Do you think that is the case. "

 

Se hesitated then rolled her shirt cuff up and showed us the inside of her wrist, it had an old faded tatoo of a concentration camp registration number on it .

 

That shut them up .

 

Beautiful.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah well, I am only speaking for myself really .  I often  chastise people who think they are having a hard life as .... the things I have seen !   When it passes a certain level for some, thats when I shut up  ( as I said, depending on what , I may 'eat my hat' )  most people that complain are being negative (in my society ) but some are valid . Some of the stories I have heard and seen in refugee work !

 

Some of the events I have seen happen to others !   In my hospital work I had to work in the mortuary I have had to stand by and help as a father identified his young son's mangled body.  I have r seen the  'gaps'  where  pieces where removed from people's bodies and the  scar tissue,  from torture.

 

I dont wax philosophically positive to those people .

 

And perhaps those experiences have  also led me to appreciate how good my life is .

Edited by Nungali
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@alchemystical

I saw your post some while back and it’s been knockin’round my head since and I’m here to make the voices stop!!! ;)

 

I guess what resonates with me is that - especially now - human beings are a mess (really from any angle, from where ever you’re standing), and surprisingly so.  I’ve been kicking around the internal arts scene for some decades and you’d think I’d understand people enough so I wouldn’t be surprised over and over and over.  And I’ve a few friends (from various orientations of serious internal looking) who are older than me and better students that I am, and *they*’re surprised.

 

And I guess my question is, “why are we so surprised, over n’ over?”.  What false presumptions about the human condition do we hold, that get knocked over time and time again by actual events?  What understandings are we lacking?

 

One presumption I’ve found in my own psychology that, “generally, people are good”.   Whether true or not (and certainly it is flawed, naive and true), it doesn’t prompt much ongoing discernment as “functionality”.  And god knows we’re all flawed and improving at our core levels in the areas we’re not-so-good-at: veeeerrry long term slow work.

 

A friend of mine had a hard knocks interpretation of Buddha’s first noble truth, “life is suffering”, saying that there’s not a solution to it, that’s the fact of it, and to just be able to get through it.

 

Books come to mind:

P.D.Ouspensky’s “The Fourth Way”

Any of the non-fiction books of essays by Wendell Berry.

 

Someone here on the board, a long time back, mentioned that when they were in college deciding on a major and considering psychology vs sociology and checked out all the professors from each discipline and found that the sociologists were all depressed.

 

Anyway, those are some rambling thoughts,

relevance questionable.

 

cheers,

Trunk

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@Trunk yes, I would agree with your last point wholeheartedly. It certainly appears that the more one is aware of the entire scenario the easier it is to become depressed which is why I've met so many bliss junkies on the path that sit, isolated in their own energetic bubble preaching this and that when in reality its the psychospiritual equivalent of "I'm alright Jack!" as its akin to closing your eyes to make the world go away. Underneath the self delusion nothing has changed even though your judicious attempts at hacking your mindbody into producing happy happy endorphins may lead you to think as everyone else is still in a rough space.

Your friends perspective on the first noble truth correlates quite well with what a very wise man once said "Everybody is dead but they refuse to realize it and instead walk around pretending to be alive and this is why everything is so messed up because its all built on lies". Quite possibly the most profound thing ever heard because, depending on your philosophical bent, it is simple and elegant which are often both hallmarks of the truth. Its also quite unpalatable to most which is, surprise, also something that the truth tends to do.

The only sane response to grasping the entire picture of reality is insanity because it is just so mad on so many levels. Why? Well thats another conversation in and of itself but it really does make you think what this thing called "reality" is and thus the implications it generates for actually being here and being able to generate this insight in the first place....

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On 7/14/2019 at 11:49 AM, alchemystical said:

@Trunk yes, I would agree with your last point wholeheartedly. It certainly appears that the more one is aware of the entire scenario the easier it is to become depressed which is why I've met so many bliss junkies on the path that sit, isolated in their own energetic bubble preaching this and that when in reality its the psychospiritual equivalent of "I'm alright Jack!" as its akin to closing your eyes to make the world go away. 

 

Umm ... ok.  So, maybe, territories to clarify and how they interact:

society (dystopia, utopia, all that)

one’s own humanness

mystical experience.

 

Some sort of sensible proportion, approach, tempo of influence, how much to expect those areas to solve each other / and not.  Really.  Not pie in the sky.  The serious seasoned viewpoints do not match the advertising, lol.

 

There is a Daoist saying, “knowing the white, keep the black”.

Mystics do spend more time alone, and there should be vigilance about that masking escapism & neglect.  Marsha Sinetar wrote an excellent book, “Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics”, in which she sought out and interviewed mature people with *functional* lifestyles.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Trunk said:

“knowing the white, keep the black”.

 

Problem with this type of idea, of which they are innumerable in the TTC, is that it is an attitude that you take towards the external.

But in my opinion whatever attitude you take towards the external ... is irrelevant.

Because it is only when you stop looking outside and do the inner work of self-recognition that you will be enlightened.

 

On 13/07/2019 at 5:32 AM, Trunk said:

why are we so surprised, over n’ over

 

Good question.   And a real question.

One reason is that our society lives in the castle of a previous more capable era.

If our society burnt to the ground, this generation would not be able to recreate it.

So in fact we are frauds, and we fool ourselves pretty good.

In fact this situation is untenable and the castle will fall at some point.

A second answer is that the inner derangement of human beings is hidden but very real.

A third answer is that for many reasons of our own making and many reasons not of our own making our species suffers and are deeply unhappy and this is expressed by harming others.

A fourth reason is that we are not conscious and we don't live in reality.

In this world a good rule of thumb is to estimate how much effort it takes to get to the finish line.

And then do 3 times as much.

And do it 3 times faster than you think you have.

And then ... you might just make it.

Life gives you many many second chances.

But eventually you will run out time and as you age it will get harder.

Such things can lead you to intensive work, and intensive stillness, equally.

 

Those who are most ignorant rush to publish books teaching people how to be, or take positions of power.

Perhaps as an instinct to hide their nothingness.

And those who are awake, are hesitant, it is a dangerous place to be a moral man.

 

Our species deserves to be living in trees with the gorillas, but through some misfortune, one part of us has become overdeveloped, what we call the "mind" which seems to have developed in relation to hunting, the hunting part of our mind that focusses externally on controlling the environment ... that is overdeveloped, far ahead of the rest of us.

So we can make "technology" to robotise things and blow things up and wreck havok.

But we cannot do anything else, we cannot really understand anything.

We cannot solve problems, and we don't know what our problems actually are.

So like an addict we resort to more technology (more external control).

But it won't work.

 

Because we can exert control externally, we assume that we are okay.

But we are not okay.

Humans talk about their plans, about their dreams, about solving their problems.

But they all die and nobody is checking whether anything really got achieved.

The plug is pulled and it's over.

Nobody checks to see if the plans were achieved, if they did the music would stop.

 

Many people even fool themselves that they are spiritual.

Whole lineages and traditions are like the Marie Celeste, a ghost ship that continues but nothing is alive within it.

It's chaos.

 

It is the kind of territory where extreme measures need to be taken.

You don't have to learn the first time disaster strikes, but you should learn soon enough.

 

 

Edited by rideforever

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On 6/13/2019 at 2:30 PM, alchemystical said:

The question is what is the cause of this sickness

 

It is called "civilization".

 

Animal husbandry and agriculture being used to create large synthetic populations of abstracted domesticated humanoid slaves.

 

This allows concentration of power and physical technology development.

 

It is not "sustainable".

 

It's just to accomplish a purpose, and then will be folded back up.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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19 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

It is called "civilization".

 

Animal husbandry and agriculture being used to create large synthetic populations of abstracted domesticated humanoid slaves.

 

This allows concentration of power and physical technology development.

 

It is not "sustainable".

 

It's just to accomplish a purpose, and then will be folded back up.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

The only thing you are slave to, is to your own freedom.

 

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On 6/13/2019 at 11:30 AM, alchemystical said:

Your inputs on this rather nebulous concept would be appreciated, however you interpret my intent and whatever bells it rings. Make it happen.

 

 

It's quite simple really.

 

The world is messed up because one is in it.

 

All are free to leave.

 

The question then becomes one of timing. 

 

If one doesn't choose to leave, it must mean the world is not so messed up.

 

Eventually we all have to leave.

The question is whether it's a conscious choice one makes , or a forgotten unconscious one, just as one  made the choice to be in the world,

 

One can also make the choice to leave.

 

Or wait until one finishes whatever one has come to do.

 

 

Edited by windwalker

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3 hours ago, Everything said:

The only thing you are slave to, is to your own freedom

 

An examination of the reality of your own gut biome in relation to modern products and environments will show otherwise.

 

And modern degenerative disease statistics also will show otherwise.

 

Do you worry about infectious diseases like polio and measles and smallpox? Ever take antibiotics?

 

Do you pay taxes to others?

 

Are you in contracts with a government or a bank over basic things?

 

Did you generate the ideas and concepts you use to think? Or were these developed by other people for you?

 

Who were they? What was their motivation?

 

Do you use money?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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2 hours ago, windwalker said:

All are free to leave.

 

We are not free to leave, we are free to die. 

To leave some magic must happen.

A large part of that happens in our understanding.

 

9 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Who were they? What was their motivation?

 

We are born into slavery, but perhaps our belief in that slavery is the real slavery.

I do not know our true situation or possibilities.

As with all such grand concepts, only thorough experiential investigation will provide a satisfactory answer.   

Few ever try.

Only the unknown is safe.

 

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1 minute ago, windwalker said:

some might say different 

 

On the basis of what ?

Many things die around you ... they seem to simply die finally don't they ?

Better to check first thoroughly who you are and so on.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

On the basis of what ?

Many things die around you ... they seem to simply die finally don't they ?

Better to check first thoroughly who you are and so on.

 

 

 

 

since you asked.

 

 

Image result for zen circle image

 

": "Show me your original face before you were born." 

 

When one can understand this then one can talk about death....

 

most spiritual disciplines / studies address  this 

 

by preparing for death  one understands how to live life.

With this understanding its always about choice, and choices made.

Edited by windwalker
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21 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

On the basis of what ?

Many things die around you ... they seem to simply die finally don't they ?

Better to check first thoroughly who you are and so on.

 

 

You don't die, no one dies. You are primarily non-physical consciousness. You just continue to become the more and better. The improved version, the better, or all the absolute best of this life, into the better of the moreness of being that you will be becoming the ever moreness of thus then.

 

So if you say dying is bad, then that wont come with you, into the moreness of what you have become and will be becoming the ever moreness of. You'll just leave it here, like a flawed or irrelevant thought form, that is just completely irrelevant to all that you have truely become in your ever more being and becoming, evermore, as one and the same thing.

 

And you always continue to expand into the moreness of what you will be becoming the moreness of thus then, waaay waaaaaaaaay  WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond those limitting flawed premises. Way more fully realised, and way more satisfying to realise all of that which you truely are being and becoming.

 

Because that is also who and what you always will be capable of allowing yourself to allow yourself to be realising all of that which you truely do want to realise and thus also can and will be supported fully to be the evermore allowed being and becoming realisation of your evermore being and becoming evermore. If you will allow yourself to realise all of that, because no one else can do that for you, and so they never will, except you, can, and so always will be the most capable, of realising all of it for yourself ever so more fully allowed by you for your very own evermore allowed realisation of all that you truely are being and becoming evermore, in joy.

 

And that is simply the point of your life and also the point of the moreness of your life, to simply more fully be able to enjoy it, as that is always something you can and so also always will be doing for yourself.

 

Especially if you allow yourself to be who you truely are, because you do want to be allowing that, to enjoy your life more fully always here and now. Which is also why you always will be capable of doing that. Which is also who and what and why you are, and the benefit of all that you are for yourself and everyone around you aswell. That you thus then also always truely want to be allowing yourself to be do or have whatever you want, because that is also always what you will be capable of allowing yourself to be do or have whatever you want.

 

For that is who and what and why you are who you are being the evermore becoming of EVERMORE! ALWAYS RIGHT HERE AND NOW WHERE ALL OF CREATION ALWAYS IS. EVERMORE.

 

That is why I always say, if you want to understand the non-physical, you have to feel joy. Otherwise, you are simply translating something else or that which is a lesser truth, and of lesser relevance to all that you always truely are being the evermore becoming of, thus. For if you feel joy, you are in alignment with your true being, and so you are thus then MOST FULLY capable, physically and non-physically, of fully realising all that you truely are, as one whole complete eternal and infinite being of evermore being and becoming evermore, always right here and now, where all of creation always is. Where you always truely are. If you will simply allow it, by being more fully present here and now for the purpose of allowing your evermore being and becoming more fully. That always feels like joy. Of full blown allowed realisation. No need to die for that. You can also just simply meditate to allow all that you truely are being and becoming evermore, by releasing thoughts of resistance, by letting go of them, by focusing on anything that doesn't encourage thought, consistently enough, so you allow your natural realisation to come forth again, always right here and now, more fully realised, of all that you truely are being and becoming in full joy, evermore.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited by Everything

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21 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

An examination of the reality of your own gut biome in relation to modern products and environments will show otherwise.

 

And modern degenerative disease statistics also will show otherwise.

 

Do you worry about infectious diseases like polio and measles and smallpox? Ever take antibiotics?

 

Do you pay taxes to others?

 

Are you in contracts with a government or a bank over basic things?

 

Did you generate the ideas and concepts you use to think? Or were these developed by other people for you?

 

Who were they? What was their motivation?

 

Do you use money?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Bla bla bla. You are still a slave to your own freedom. Can't escape it, I'm sorry. :lol:

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45 minutes ago, Everything said:

You don't die, no one dies.

 

Really, then where are they ?
Where is Julius Caesar ?
Seen him around ?

No.

Think about this; at night when you sleep, somebody else in Japan wakes up and starts the day.

Is it you ?

No, it isn't.

 

 

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1 minute ago, rideforever said:

 

Really, then where are they ?
Where is Julius Caesar ?
Seen him around ?

No.

Think about this; at night when you sleep, somebody else in Japan wakes up and starts the day.

Is it you ?

No, it isn't.

 

 

As I said, they are becoming the moreness of all the best of all that they have ever been, and are still doing so even right now as we speak. 

 

Even you are doing so, right now, as we speak.

 

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3 hours ago, Everything said:

Bla bla bla. You are still a slave to your own freedom. Can't escape it, I'm sorry.

 

What makes you think I am a slave to my own freedom to say that?

 

It's like a wild assumption or something - but based on what?

 

It is certainly possible to not be a slave at all to anything.

 

But if you have any problem, any one health problem, any confusions - then this is not freedom.

 

You must have freedom to be truly happy.

 

No Health = No Freedom.

 

No Freedom = No Happy. Always limited. Not free to interact fully in life.

 

So first step to becoming free is to develop full health.

 

Modern civilization is built on the exact opposite thing, for the reason I stated.

 

Failing to surmount that, all else is just so much bullshitting.

 

Eating refined poisons and false medicines is slavery and produces diminishment, not freedom.

 

Being afraid to catch a disease is slavery, as is developing one from bad living one believed was real.

So taking a vaccine or antibiotic - not acts of freedom. Acts of fear and slavery. Germ theory of disease is false idea.

 

People doing these and thinking to study "cultivation" are fooling themselves.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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Everything is fine. All you need to believe in is your ever unfolding everything you are all now just fill in the space with everything like I fill in these lines with more and more ness words to confuse your logical ability- which in itself has been caused by lack of bliss consciousnezzzz or something—err I mean... everything.

 

 

everything is all blah blah blah I’m all spiritual babbles just sit and be with your true divine everything. Don’t read these words with your  logic mind use your heart chakra to connect to everything. Find the light your free never slave everything is interconnected new age obviousness..

 

and moreness. Always moreness. More words. I love words to connect the bridge from the palate to the frontal lobes. Juice flowing—free. It’s everywherr.. and everything.

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3 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

What makes you think I am a slave to my own freedom to say that?

 

It's like a wild assumption or something - but based on what?

 

It is certainly possible to not be a slave at all to anything.

 

But if you have any problem, any one health problem, any confusions - then this is not freedom.

 

You must have freedom to be truly happy.

 

No Health = No Freedom.

 

No Freedom = No Happy. Always limited. Not free to interact fully in life.

 

So first step to becoming free is to develop full health.

 

Modern civilization is built on the exact opposite thing, for the reason I stated.

 

Failing to surmount that, all else is just so much bullshitting.

 

Eating refined poisons and false medicines is slavery and produces diminishment, not freedom.

 

Being afraid to catch a disease is slavery, as is developing one from bad living one believed was real.

So taking a vaccine or antibiotic - not acts of freedom. Acts of fear and slavery. Germ theory of disease is false idea.

 

People doing these and thinking to study "cultivation" are fooling themselves.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Let's say, I am tired. And then I say NO I AM NOT TIRED. IM NOT GONNA SLEEP I DONT WANT TO SLEEP! And I just become more and more tired. 

Then I just surrender and let go. I give up! I surrender myself to who it is I truely am. I am tired. I'm gonna sleep. And let go. I am going to let go. And allow myself to be free to sleep. But even if I don't, I will be a slave to my freedom to sleep. I will become more tired. This is called the bondage of resistance, to your slavery towards your own freedom. The true freedom is the freedom from the bondage of resistance. You can always feel resistance as negative energy in motion, emotion. 

 

I am a willing slave. To my own freedom. And so, I feel relief in that. Of aaah... Freedom to sleep. Freedom to allow myself to be who it is I truely am. 

Edited by Everything

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39 minutes ago, Everything said:

Let's say, I am tired. And then I say NO I AM NOT TIRED. IM NOT GONNA SLEEP I DONT WANT TO SLEEP! And I just become more and more tired. 

Then I just surrender and let go. I give up! I surrender myself to who it is I truely am. I am tired. I'm gonna sleep. And let go. I am going to let go. And allow myself to be free to sleep. But even if I don't, I will be a slave to my freedom to sleep. I will become more tired. This is called the bondage of resistance, to your slavery towards your own freedom. The true freedom is the freedom from the bondage of resistance. You can always feel resistance as negative energy in motion, emotion. 

 

I am a willing slave. To my own freedom. And so, I feel relief in that. Of aaah... Freedom to sleep. Freedom to allow myself to be who it is I truely am. 

 

Okay. Good.

 

And when you being who it is you truly are, consider how that was made, and of what, and according to whom.

 

That's all I am writing about.

 

For example, no cell in the body is not made 100% of food. Bones are. Brain is. Neurons are.

 

So who you truly are is also "food".

 

Whose food? 

 

Who cultivated and designed it? Why did they do it?

 

Medicines are also "food" that is making the body and brain thinking that is being who it truly is.

 

Whose medicines?

 

Who designed and manufactured it? Why? What has resulted?

 

Many, many people you do not know and are not aware of are also making you what you "truly are".

 

Should you not also ask THEM for clarification of what you are feeling and thinking and being?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

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