Ah, it's the same old...

[Buddy]

"The only pleasure I could discern is getting the benefit of your elegant analysis."

 

Ah, the typical self congratulation society.

 

"But, in my case, I'm not really guilty of engaging him, I simply don't know how to convince him to disengage. "

 

Man, this is rich. You're "not really guilty." I couldn't make this stuff up.

 

"He keeps following me like a bad penny."

 

 

Sorry to destroy your supreme self importance, but I didn't address you at all. Did you think I was talking about you somewhere? Telling.

 

"That's the problem with borderline personalities -- once they engage themselves bullying someone, they are relentless. "

 

I love this passive/agressivenass. Again classic. It's textbook. Talking to one while intending for another. Interesting for someone who has claimed "enlightenment". I guess it didn't stick for long. Very, very amusing.

 

 

"Do you get The Simpsons in the UK? There was an episode where Lisa invented a bully repellent spray. She figured out, correctly, that what sets off a bully is a chemical reaction -- they are engaged and enraged by pheromones generated by someone's mind activity, to which they are violently allergic. So that's why talking to them not only fails to convince them of anything, but invariably agitates them further -- the better your argument, the more mind activity pheromones you produce, the more it enrages the bully! I just wish I had Lisa's repellent spray in an online form."

 

 

Or perhaps a logical cogent point?

 

"All sound and fury signifying..." to quote the Shake.

 

And you're a tough girl to boot.

 

I quiver.

 

"Buddy is a fool. "

 

Typically, lacking any leg to reasonably stand on, the knave rests on insult. Did I say typically? I believe I did.

[Pero]

While I don't plan to post much anymore, this is just too much to pass...

 

Buddy is a fool. Leave him alone. To Karma.

 

You saying this is ironic in so many ways. I thought you thought you were enlightened? Doesn't thinking that and not actually being so make you an even bigger fool? Also where's your compassion? If Buddy was such a fool why don't you help him?

Invoking karma? LMAO.

 

Some cultivators you are. How can possibly one man get under your skin so much? If you're not able to deal with him, you could at the very least ignore him.

And instead of thinking what you could do about Buddy so much, or how he should change, maybe you should be thinking what you could do about yourself.

[三江源]

.

Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源

[Taomeow]

No. That was not the point of my post either. You may dub your interpretation as 'obvious' but in fact that is simply your own interpretation, and it's a quite mistaken one.

TaoMeow, yes your explanation / theory rings true. This is why I think the 'ignore' function here is an asset, so that one simply doesnt get into the game. I dont want my mind activity negatively manipulated and eaten up across the ether.

 

But it is more of a discipline to use one's OWN 'ignore' function, I know..

It is a bit horrible to me, the poking and prodding to generate an irritated mind state, I am squeamish about it, I find it unpleasant. But I know it can under some circumstances generate growth and stimulate change. It's all about the intention behind it, isnt it. That is the key.

 

Online interactions are frustrating by default -- quite unnatural if you thinks about it -- disembodied and therefore unrealistic. In real life, someone new may come to your home and talk in a way that would earn him or her a cup of tea and a slice of cake right on the spot, and a dinner invitation for Saturday, and you'd be proud to introduce this new friend to your family and your friends, and you wouldn't be ashamed if your mom and dad or your kids knew that that's who you hang out with, and your cat would purr, and your dog would wag its tail, and your "milk of human kindness" (Shakespeare) wouldn't go sour from that person's sheer breath. Someone a bit different -- OK, a lot different -- would come to your home and behave the way they routinely do online, he or she would promptly get thrown out, no questions asked. By the enlightened and unenlightened alike. As Buddha told his student when he wanted to take a bath and the student was reluctant to kill the bugs crawling therein on the basis of Buddha's own teachings of nonviolence, "I told you to prepare my bath, not to teach me how to follow my own teachings. Now get to work and kill those bugs or be dismissed and get lost!"

 

For me, the excuse is that my lifestyle is not the same here as it used to be elsewhere. I had many hand-picked friends living within fifteen minutes' walking distance from me for 3/5 of my life. Now they are scattered all over the globe. Now if I want to talk to like-minded people, I have to do it the modern disembodied way much of the time. So the choice is between taking my chances on the internet and having to serve that tea and cake only virtually to many, while trying to take care not to take a virtual bath with nasty bugs crawling all over it, or staying out of it altogether. If the bugs multiply beyond what I deem acceptable, I leave. One or two, I see as a price to pay for resorting to this unnatural way of communication. Which I resort to instead of doing what I would really like to do -- something that would work toward restoring real, non-disembodied human communities. So in a sense, "all" my internet interactions are karmic, because deep down I despise the method itself yet haven't personally done anything about it.

 

Pero, to some of us "enlightened" simply means "fully human," no more, no less.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Taomeow

[Starjumper]

Hi Cat, thanks so much for telling me about Ian's thread about the book which speaks of enlightenment. I read most of the first page he has on enlightenment and I can say that I really like this guys's style, you can trust him and what he says. There is so much there to read. Since you are reading the whole book I hope you can point me to the page which describes the 'big' one (which includes sudden onset of what is called cessation and of bliss, followed by a raincloud of knowledge). Lately I've been reading through the book Magus of Strovolos, like you are and I'm just not much of a book reader these days, having returned to enjoying mostly some science fiction. Many years ago on the internet I read a wonderful and precise description of enlightenment and I saved it but I've since lost it in a hard drive crash and now I can't find it when I do a search.

 

Edited March 6, 2008 by Starjumper7

[steve]

Pero, to some of us "enlightened" simply means "fully human," no more, no less.

This bears repeating... nicely said

[mYTHmAKER]

 

Nope, but thanks for the detailed explanation as to why you said it.

 

The reason I said you gotta be kidding was because of the general tone of your post

and specifically the part where you said if I was lucky some day you would tell us the

stages of enlightenment.

 

You read as either you were putting me on or were full of yourself.

I had no idea at the time that you just like to confuse issues.

So I guess I was right you were kidding.

[Stigweard]

"Pero, to some of us "enlightened" simply means "fully human," no more, no less."

 

This bears repeating... nicely said

 

I second that motion.

[林愛偉]

This bears repeating... nicely said

 

 

 

"Not enlightened, you are human. Enlightened you still are human."

 

An indirect quote from Ven. Master Xuan Hua.

 

 

 

Peace,

Lin

[三江源]

.

Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源

[mYTHmAKER]

Yes, I've read it! Holy shit. (Remember the episode with a holy man smearing shit all over himself? ) Well, I didn't pick hinduism or buddhism for a reason. (Or, rather, they didn't pick me.) One can ooze puddles of sheer weirdness in the Hindu tradition and everybody will understand what's going on, the whole deal is expected to be what it is at its outer extremes -- raw, wild, closer to primordial chaos than to anything human -- and the culture accepts it somehow. Imagine Muktananda having a nine-to-five job in the middle of it all! and traffic jams and cops and all that jazz...

Taoism is, far as I'm concerned, a healthy compromise between the imperatives of living in the society (cultivating life) and living in harmony with primordial forces (cultivating essence), raw and spontaneous energies of the world. Hinduism goes all out into the inhuman realms, on some cosmic tangent of devotion to pure alienation (yes, despite all declarations to the contrary -- if you don't live like a human, that's alienation -- regardless of what you say, think, or feel.)

 

So, "fully enlightened" might actually mean "fully alienated from fellow humans," like that master Muktananda admired as his spiritual superior who sat naked in a corner of his hut playing with his excrements. It is a tricky spiritual task to know where to stop -- one of the reasons I absolutely and unequivocally despise "modern science" which I'm expected to admire because it "can do so much" is precisely its propensity to do things "just because it can," for no other good reason, to have no brakes, to never know how to stop, to never think twice before causing something irreversible to happen.

 

Zippruanna was able to hang out in garbage and smear feces on himself and emit a wonderful fragrance.

I guess you had to be there He did that to keep people away.

It's interesting that you would remember and focus on that.

 

There were probably some pretty wild taoists in the past and maybe even in the present.

 

Zippruanna was not Muktananda's guru. Nityananda, who either naked or in a scanty

loin cloth was.

Enlightenement is fully alienated for those with that personality type - they probably hung out alone before the big E

 

Muktananda was not like that at all. He was well dressed and fastidious in his appearance.

One of the things he taught me was to be impeccable in my actions and dealings with people.

 

I think we always retain our particuliar personality no matter where we are on the path. We become more of what we are. At the same time we change in certain ways - that about covers all bases.

 

I would hazard a guess and hazard is the correct word here that when you had your experiences you didn't have a teacher , guru, guide, whatever to guide you.

 

I do like the idea that to be enlightened is to be fully human and believe it to be so.

It gets harder and harder to turn your back on life.

[Buddy]

I don't think it means being human at all. I think it means transcending this particular ego and form we've all developed. Why would being fully temporary be considered enlightening?

[mYTHmAKER]

I don't think it means being human at all. I think it means transcending this particular ego and form we've all developed. Why would being fully temporary be considered enlightening?

 

"Why would being fully temporary be considered enlightening?"

 

Could you please explain or rewrite the above sentence.

 

One might think of being fully human as having removed or transcended those obstacles i.e ego

that keep one from being fully human.

[Buddy]

The very fact that we identify with this label as "human" is what limits us. Our true nature is, from a Vedantic standpoint, sat-chit-ananda- Eternal, fully aware, and blissful. I'll leave it to the Buddhist to explain their view. It's much the same but I believe they negate any eternal consciousness.

 

"Being human" is necessarily a temporary event. My contention is that "enlightenment" is being awake to one's own transcendence of this temporary condition.

Edited March 7, 2008 by Buddy

[steve]

I don't think it means being human at all. I think it means transcending this particular ego and form we've all developed. Why would being fully temporary be considered enlightening?

I think that there are two aspects to being human. There is the finite aspect which is the illusion of "me" created by thoughts, memories, and physical sensations. This is the illusory or temporary aspect. Then there is the infinite aspect. That which was never born and never dies. True reality. Living humans are both yet the awareness of each component varies. I sort of look at the living experience of the non-dual component as "enlightenment." But both components are always there. Enlightenment does not make the other part disappear, only death does that.

 

I interpreted Taomeow's comment as implying that the human condition includes the experience of both the finite and infinite aspects of living. They are and will always be present in every living person (living being in my opinion). Neither can be done away with during life although the awareness of each component can certainly vary among individuals.

[xenolith]

I don't respond to posts about me. Technical/spiritual matters only do I respond to. Fool is a technical term in Taoist tradition. In my opinion, Buddy is one. Therefore I've said so. I'm sorry if that description offends anyone. It was offered in the best interest of those who would read it.

 

I should point out that his 4:10 p.m. statement of today indicates a much less foolish position than his prior ones...quite similar to what I've offered in fact. I therefore am encouraged that my opinion of him will change. Occasionally a led horse does drink. I certainly hope he is one .

[joeblast]

Fully human either way.

Is an ill nourished and sickly tree any less of a tree than one that has grown to its fullest potential?

[Buddy]

"I think that there are two aspects to being human. There is the finite aspect which is the illusion of "me" created by thoughts, memories, and physical sensations. This is the illusory or temporary aspect. Then there is the infinite aspect. That which was never born and never dies. True reality. Living humans are both yet the awareness of each component varies. I sort of look at the living experience of the non-dual component as "enlightenment." But both components are always there. Enlightenment does not make the other part disappear, only death does that."

 

Sorry. While I agree with what I think you're saying, if it is that we can come to this awakening while still alive (and indeed we must..in whatever lifetime), being human is only about a temporary aspect of our true nature. We aren't human. To quote a popular pop psychology phrase, we are "spiritual beings having a human experience."

 

 

"I don't respond to posts about me."

How convenient.

 

"Technical/spiritual matters only do I respond to."

 

And why should anyone give credence to this? You are a nameless internet moniker.

 

"Fool is a technical term in Taoist tradition."

 

Really? Site your source.

 

"In my opinion, Buddy is one. Therefore I've said so"

 

I'm 50. In my opinion you are pointless puppy. I am here representing me with my real name. You are pompous, nameless, internet nothing. Therefore, I've said so.

 

 

 

"I'm sorry if that description offends anyone. It was offered in the best interest of those who would read it."

 

 

Irrelevancy cannot invoke offense. You do amuse, however.

 

"I should point out that his 4:10 p.m. statement of today indicates a much less foolish position than his prior ones...quite similar to what I've offered in fact. I therefore am encouraged that my opinion of him will change. Occasionally a led horse does drink. I certainly hope he is one "

 

I hope you are not offended that I will sleep soundly without your fond affections. Please don't be such a pompous tool. I suspect you think yourself a wit. I assure you. You are half right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

""

[xenolith]

I see that no value can come from further commentary. I'll now recuse myself from said.

[Starjumper]

The reason I said you gotta be kidding was because ... and specifically the part where you said if I was lucky some day you would tell us the stages of enlightenment.

 

You read as either you were putting me on or were full of yourself.

I had no idea at the time that you just like to confuse issues.

So I guess I was right you were kidding.

 

I see, the "if you're lucky someday I'll tell you", that's some habitual nonsense talk I like play around with as it is laced with several layers of sarcasm, several of which are leveled against myself. It's a joke. So yes, I was kidding about it being luck. I just feel reluctant to write much these days about non practice things, I don't know, I guess I can write about it, but in this thread??

[Starjumper]

I dont understand the pleasure of engaging with Buddy. What is the point? Is it an optimism that believes there will be some shift in him eventually?

 

For me it's mainly a way to exercise my dark side, you know, it's some kind of self destructive mode of operation that I embrace. Most everyone has some self destructive behaviors, I just try to take mine into consideration, and I still like myself anyway =) You know the saying, embrace your dark side but move towards the light.

 

Could this be what is refered to as endarkmanet??? Endarkment .... Dark magic that casts a spell on the surface of the night. I wave my hand, the fire dances, and the world is changed forever. A imaginary red tennis ball appears on Buddy's nose. Go ahead, squeeze the old wheeze. Honk! Honk! Honk if you like Buddy: Honk honk.

 

(fade out with more little honking noises as others down the bus squeeze their red noses.)

Edited March 7, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

Personally, I want to hear about the success of your experiences and understanding on such matters that I find very interesting.

 

Thanks for the vote, I'm just reluctant to share due to my own over exposure to forums and not wanting to get sucked into another one like this. I showed up here only to warn the roiling crowd of Bozos about Max the ripoff (has a nice ring to it but Max the liar would be more concise actually) only to find that it's become a Kunlun forum. I sort of started off on the wrong foot and I guess I'm just trying to burn my bridges so as to force a hasty exit. Sometimes though I end up making a friend or two, like Cat, who casts a spell on me to return.

 

... but:

 

What I am saying my friend is that your attachment to making such a 'big thing' of your achievement and promoting its importance may currently be your biggest obstacle to your growth.

 

I see, well I said I never cared about it either before to after it happened, and, I also said it wasn't so great like many people say it is. I'm also experimenting with the growth obstacle concept, since the devil's in the details.

 

I also said that there are various stages to the process and people are getting the different stages mixed up and so say some silly things. I just dislike writing about the subject, it annoys me, so I act annoyed.

Edited March 7, 2008 by Starjumper7

[三江源]

.

Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源

[Cameron]

I showed up here only to warn the roiling crowd of Bozos about Max the ripoff (has a nice ring to it but Max the liar would be more concise actually) only to find that it's become a Kunlun forum. :.

 

 

Does webmaster sean even read these posts? I mean, I don't have a problem at all with people expressing there opinions in a respectful way(I think this system is bogus because...) but this is getting ridiculous.

[三江源]

.

Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源