Is there a difference between thought, intention and observation and awareness in meditation?

[freeform]

One of the first crucial milestones for any Taoist internal practice is Sinking The Qi.

 

In most modern interpretations this is done by telling the student to focus on a point in his abdominal region. Or to imagine a ball in there or something like that.

 

This does nothing of real value. It also does almost the exact opposite of sinking the Qi. But it’s quick and easy and still sells books/videos/online trainings/seminars - which, let’s face it, is the objective of most ‘teachers’ in this ‘industry’.

 

The real process of sinking the Qi takes time and correct methods. It also takes transmission from an authentic teacher (otherwise it just takes much more time). It can initially be achieved in anything from a few weeks (with the help of a teacher + correct methods) to years (with correct methods only). This is regular daily training. And this is not talking of having a stabilised sunk Qi - it’s only the initial sinking - which needs to be repeated constantly until there’s some consolidation and anchoring in the lower Dan Tien. This takes more time.

 

Why this disparity? Apart from the fact that it’s a pretty hard thing to sell (you’ll have to do hard work over many months to even sink your Qi - the very basic thing you do before any actual qi gong can start). There’s also a huge fundamental misunderstanding. 

 

“Qi follows Yi”.  This is generally accepted now, and for most people means that if you place your mind in your hand or imagine a glowing circle in your palm that the Qi will flow there. It’s further supported by the fact that if you actually do this, you’ll start to feel sensations of heat/buzzing/movement in your hand. This is not Qi! This is the nerves in your hand being stimulated by focused attention! And yet most people get stuck with this for decades - completely wasting their time (I guess it feels interesting, so maybe some entertainment value there at least)

 

The real meaning of that phrase is that the quality of your mind (your yi) moves the Qi.

 

Now, quality of mind is a whole big discussion on its own... but this is where Ting (listening) and Song (releasing) come in. Once your yi is Ting and Song, it’s natural action (when undisturbed) is to gently flow downwards through your body. It flows slowly like honey and over time it penetrates deeper into your body (at first only near the skin).

 

If you have some Qi in your Dan Tien (this is where transmission from a proper teacher comes in handy) it is drawn to it and begins to settle there increasing your Dan Tien consolidation over time. 

 

This is sinking the qi. If you ‘observe’ or ‘place your mind on xxxx’ or you ‘imagine’ - then the Qi just moves up to your head and heart - where it lives for most people most of the time anyway.

 

Hopefully that’s given a new perspective to the subtlety of genuine internal arts. Remember this is only the very beginning basic fundamental - sink your Qi. As you progress and things become more complex, it becomes obvious (hopefully) why you need a teacher that has achieved this and clearly sees all the pitfalls and necessary corrections. That’s the process of learning in these arts - almost everything you do is wrong, but bit by bit you make less and less mistakes until you get Gong  

[Marblehead]

Nice but so complicated.

 

My rule:

 

Sit down and shut up.

 

[OldDog]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

The real process of sinking the Qi takes time and correct methods. ... This is regular daily training. And this is not talking of having a stabilised sunk Qi - it’s only the initial sinking - which needs to be repeated constantly .... This takes more time.

 

This is about as good an explanation as I have heard. Sets an appropriate level of expectation.

 

I have always likened it to kind of a melding or layering process overtime: learn to relax ... song ... ting. Things like tingling sensations, heat, etc are just by products along the way. 

 

I do not claim to be very accomplished but what you have described is consistent with what I have been taught. In my practice (Chen style) there is some emphasis on static postures early on. Chen postures are a bit more strenuous ... wide, low ... and thus offer greater opportunity for error. It takes time and effort to get there but necessary. A lot of emphasis in correction by the master. But learning to relax in a static posture that is correctly aligned allows, over time, for the development of musculature support necessary for the postures and maintain alignment. Constant repetition of instruction to relax, sink.

 

I have heard listening used in two ways.

 

The manner you describe listening above becomes important initially in push hands training. Learning to sense opponents balance and intent ... while maintaining your own sense of song, ting. This is said to be the development of listening skill.

 

The other way has been in qigong and meditation. That rather than focus attention in a contrived manner on the lower dan tien ... which as you point out can be a distraction in itself ... one can gently listen ... almost in a literal sense ... to a place just behind you. I have used this in my practice and all other things being correct ... alignment, proper support, relaxed ... it has proved helpful. This is aspect of listening is what came to mind from your previous post. Does this use of listening find meaning in your experience?

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Every day upon waking up and opening our eyes, we are always looking outwards, seeking outwards and contemplating outwards.

 

We are very rarely contemplating our breath, our heart beat, and the peristaltic movement of our intestines and stomach. If we attempt to look inwards, seek inwards, we are capable of opening a new gate, which will make our thoughts and train of thoughts to be more clear, distinct and sharp, and which will make our physical flesh and organs to be more sturdy, firm and powerful.

 

When we embark on sitting meditation and stillness cultivation many fluids  are produced inside our mouths. Compared to other occasions, at this instances our fluids contain multiple times the amount of all kinds of enzymes. This phenomenon can elevate our body’s immunity and greatly assist our well-being.

 

Giving your self the opportunity to meditate has many benefits. there seems to be ten thousand methods but what happens when we become proficient with simple meditation, no method at all is that we become way more aware of things that are happening internally then we can feel the flow of energy and that method is reveled or we observe thoughts and that method is reveled. we understand how breath and mind rest on each other and how thoughts change our breathing or the breath is rough and we use the mind to smooth it all out and that method is reveled.

[freeform]

2 hours ago, OldDog said:

Does this use of listening find meaning in your experience?

 

Overall your training sounds similar to mine. Although my focus isn’t on internal martial arts. Developing the ‘Qi Gong Body’ is very similar. You stand in your ‘fundamental’ posture (every classical system will have one) and you put your body in a particular shape.

 

Then bit by bit, with Ting and Song, your body changes shape. You release particular lines which cause (necessary) tension along certain lines. And deep relaxation along other lines. As your body changes, more corrections are necessary. The way a beginner stands and the way intermediate and advanced students stand will look very different, even though they’re applying the same principles correctly.

 

The listening as it pertains to sinking Qi is slightly different. “Mind is gravity” one of my teachers used to say. What he meant is that mind sinks of it’s own accord when you tune in to the correct quality. Then Qi sinks with it. If you have some consolidation in your Dan Tien, then it’s easier as there’s already an anchor and Qi attracts Qi. 

 

The listening soaks through the body and descends. Yes it’s almost literally listening, but at a certain stage you begin to tune in to the ‘substance’ of mind. It’s almost like a  viscous liquid. But this is moving into the realms of alchemy.

 

Theres many aspects to Ting and the way they are used will be slightly different in different contexts. And different schools will have slightly different emphasis too.

 

Nice to see that there are some people here actually doing proper training  

[KuroShiro]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

One of the first crucial milestones for any Taoist internal practice is Sinking The Qi.

 

In most modern interpretations this is done by telling the student to focus on a point in his abdominal region. Or to imagine a ball in there or something like that.

 

This does nothing of real value. It also does almost the exact opposite of sinking the Qi. But it’s quick and easy and still sells books/videos/online trainings/seminars - which, let’s face it, is the objective of most ‘teachers’ in this ‘industry’.

 

The real process of sinking the Qi takes time and correct methods. It also takes transmission from an authentic teacher (otherwise it just takes much more time). It can initially be achieved in anything from a few weeks (with the help of a teacher + correct methods) to years (with correct methods only). This is regular daily training. And this is not talking of having a stabilised sunk Qi - it’s only the initial sinking - which needs to be repeated constantly until there’s some consolidation and anchoring in the lower Dan Tien. This takes more time.

 

Why this disparity? Apart from the fact that it’s a pretty hard thing to sell (you’ll have to do hard work over many months to even sink your Qi - the very basic thing you do before any actual qi gong can start). There’s also a huge fundamental misunderstanding. 

 

“Qi follows Yi”.  This is generally accepted now, and for most people means that if you place your mind in your hand or imagine a glowing circle in your palm that the Qi will flow there. It’s further supported by the fact that if you actually do this, you’ll start to feel sensations of heat/buzzing/movement in your hand. This is not Qi! This is the nerves in your hand being stimulated by focused attention! And yet most people get stuck with this for decades - completely wasting their time (I guess it feels interesting, so maybe some entertainment value there at least)

 

The real meaning of that phrase is that the quality of your mind (your yi) moves the Qi.

 

Now, quality of mind is a whole big discussion on its own... but this is where Ting (listening) and Song (releasing) come in. Once your yi is Ting and Song, it’s natural action (when undisturbed) is to gently flow downwards through your body. It flows slowly like honey and over time it penetrates deeper into your body (at first only near the skin).

 

If you have some Qi in your Dan Tien (this is where transmission from a proper teacher comes in handy) it is drawn to it and begins to settle there increasing your Dan Tien consolidation over time. 

 

This is sinking the qi. If you ‘observe’ or ‘place your mind on xxxx’ or you ‘imagine’ - then the Qi just moves up to your head and heart - where it lives for most people most of the time anyway.

 

Hopefully that’s given a new perspective to the subtlety of genuine internal arts. Remember this is only the very beginning basic fundamental - sink your Qi. As you progress and things become more complex, it becomes obvious (hopefully) why you need a teacher that has achieved this and clearly sees all the pitfalls and necessary corrections. That’s the process of learning in these arts - almost everything you do is wrong, but bit by bit you make less and less mistakes until you get Gong  

 

Interesting, thank you.

 

 

9 hours ago, freeform said:

If you have some Qi in your Dan Tien (this is where transmission from a proper teacher comes in handy) it is drawn to it and begins to settle there increasing your Dan Tien consolidation over time. 

 

This is sinking the qi.

 

What about sending the Qi from the LDT to the ground and below, is that sinking the Qi as well?

[freeform]

12 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

What about sending the Qi from the LDT to the ground and below, is that sinking the Qi as well?

 

Should be a simple thing to answer, right?

 

But unfortunately as with most things in the internal arts - it depends...

 

Firstly it depends if you can master the prerequisites for sinking the Qi. Body structure, quality of mind etc.

 

You also, generally wouldn’t be ‘sending Qi’ to below the ground. You could certainly sink your mind down through your body into the ground - and that’s often done in the closing movements of many systems. That’s a good thing to do.

 

There’s also the complication of Yin Qi and Yang Qi. Yin Qi readily moves between you and the ground. Yang Qi can, but you’d probably not want to as you’d be using it for training. You’d also need to be bare foot on the ground for that to happen.

 

Also - why would you want to send your Qi below ground? It might have use in one system and no use in another system. 

 

So it’s always rather complex if you isolate elements out of their context. That’s why there needs to be a system in place - so that you’re doing things to achieve certain aims that move you further down the path. 

 

 

 

 

[KuroShiro]

12 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Should be a simple thing to answer, right?

 

But unfortunately as with most things in the internal arts - it depends...

 

Firstly it depends if you can master the prerequisites for sinking the Qi. Body structure, quality of mind etc.

 

You also, generally wouldn’t be ‘sending Qi’ to below the ground. You could certainly sink your mind down through your body into the ground - and that’s often done in the closing movements of many systems. That’s a good thing to do.

 

There’s also the complication of Yin Qi and Yang Qi. Yin Qi readily moves between you and the ground. Yang Qi can, but you’d probably not want to as you’d be using it for training. You’d also need to be bare foot on the ground for that to happen.

 

Also - why would you want to send your Qi below ground? It might have use in one system and no use in another system. 

 

So it’s always rather complex if you isolate elements out of their context. That’s why there needs to be a system in place - so that you’re doing things to achieve certain aims that move you further down the path. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

On 10/30/2018 at 10:17 AM, freeform said:

The real process of sinking the Qi takes time and correct methods. It also takes transmission from an authentic teacher (otherwise it just takes much more time). It can initially be achieved in anything from a few weeks (with the help of a teacher + correct methods) to years (with correct methods only).

 

On 10/30/2018 at 10:17 AM, freeform said:

If you have some Qi in your Dan Tien (this is where transmission from a proper teacher comes in handy) it is drawn to it and begins to settle there increasing your Dan Tien consolidation over time. 

 

When you say transmission from an authentic teacher are you talking about transmission of Qi from teacher to student?

[freeform]

2 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

When you say transmission from an authentic teacher are you talking about transmission of Qi from teacher to student?

 

Yes exactly.

 

But not only that. A good teacher will often also give a Shen based transmission that will over time help to align your quality of mind to what is required.

[KuroShiro]

16 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes exactly.

 

But not only that. A good teacher will often also give a Shen based transmission that will over time help to align your quality of mind to what is required.

 

Like a Spiritual Seed?

[Marblehead]

58 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Like a Spiritual Seed?

Or maybe a mustard seed?

 

[freeform]

7 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Like a Spiritual Seed?

 

Thats slightly different

 

 

[rideforever]

How am I too follow the instructions suggested to me during meditation without thinking?

You cannot, so think on the instructions, convert the thinking to subtle inner work, then discard the thought and remain internal.   From time to time you might check where you are using thought, then once again discard all conceptual material.

 

For example, observing the nature of thoughts, pondering, "Where do they come from?Where do they go?" 

This is not a great practice.
Next stare at your foot and ask yourself where it comes from, after that check into sanatorium.

If you wish to do this kind of practice .... better to just do Samatha breathing at the nostrils, don't stare at things like zombie it just makes you blank-brain Buddhist useless for anything except staring.

 

Also, once Im, "In the zone," as I like to call it,I still have these vague thoughts which are just observations of what is happening.

And then ?   Don't worry.

 

All thoughts of past or future melt away, except for the occasional thought of how I can try to describe the experience to someone else, but I'm working on that. Is this okay and a natural part of progression?

That is fine, but when in meditation focus on good meditation, therefore discard this stuff and return to being inside.
Later you won't remember anyway.

[Wayfarer]

I don't know if this is still live for the OP.  I read the first page only tut tut.  But to the OP you are coming to this with too many ideas.  If you sit down with a cup of coffee do you have a view of how this should be done?  Must you watch your breath while drinking tea?  All these thoughts and ideas are here because sitting (or meditation) has become a doing. 

 

When a cat sits there does it have an idea of breathing through its heels?  Does it look at the landscape and think, I shouldn't be thinking of the landscape because I then hold a concept about it blah blah.

 

Look.  You already are what you are seeking through meditation.  No technique can help you draw any closer to what you are already.  You simply haven't realized it yet.  Whether you want to know the truth or just become less tense meditation is not guaranteed to do either.  So, just sit.  Stare out of the window and do nothing.  Don't have a single care whether you have a head full of thoughts or not, they will gradually, naturally quieten.  

 

If you sit there thinking from where do thoughts come and go, that in itself is a thought.  You can't clear away the shit if you are thinking about doing so.  It happens naturally by doing nothing.  Like a cat.  Doing nothing.  Forget the results.  And by the way, the subconscious mind has nothing to do with it.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Wayfarer

[thelerner]

On the last segment of my meditation I let go and just sit.  Before that there's a segment where I breath as quietly as possible.  Shooting for no audible sound.  This means not breathing as deeply and more care between transitions.  It also brings out heightened attention and focus with some nice byproducts.. in the body, out of mind, full attention

[exorcist_1699]

There is  no need to differentiate those thought, observation, intention...etc(  in fact,  you shouldn't  ! ) ; just eliminate all mental activities, including   this  intention to eliminate ,   and expect nothing upcoming....to its utmost , an emptied mindless Mind , ie the real  Mind/ meta-Mind,  will pop up ;

 

If you can't follow the above-mentioned way  , then follow  Taoist way , that is :

jing -> qi -> Shen ( emptied Mind) , which implies using jing and qi to counteract your fluctuating minds...

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by exorcist_1699