MCO variants

[Starjumper]

15 hours ago, steve said:

I'd like to add that there are traditional schools of Daoism (I'm not referring to Mantak Chia or any other school that has printed English resources I am aware of) that do emphasize dedicated practice of the microcosmic orbit in seated meditation as a foundation. Intermediate and advanced practices are only added once the teacher sees appropriate signs in the student. The MCO can be the primary practice for years before advancing. One primary and critical function of such practices is to cultivate very powerful mind of intent - 意 (Yi). While this is an integral part of Qigong and Taijiquan practice, it's my personal experience that concentrating solely on cultivating the Yi to guide the Qi while seated and still is extremely effective. The absence of body movement allows one to focus with far more precision and depth. My teacher used to say that the only way to reach higher levels of skill in the internal martial arts is through practicing such meditation [edit - here I am not referring solely to the MCO but to more advanced practices, all of which use the MCO as their foundation]. It was certainly my experience that it took my martial practice and ability to another level.

 

I'm getting that some legitimate schools use the MCO so it isn't all bad.  In my system we did plenty of seated meditation, and it is from a martial tradition.  Also the system develops intent but I'm not sure if it comes from the seated meditations which use observation of energy in different postures or if it's from the moving exercises.  We also put palms over eyes as part of the 'cool down' standing exercises that we do after the sitting meditation.  Also palms over ears and palms over crown point.  I assumed that these were part of sealing the openings to prevent energy leakage, particularly from the crown point.

[steve]

22 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I'm getting that some legitimate schools use the MCO so it isn't all bad.  In my system we did plenty of seated meditation, and it is from a martial tradition.  Also the system develops intent but I'm not sure if it comes from the seated meditations which use observation of energy in different postures or if it's from the moving exercises.  We also put palms over eyes as part of the 'cool down' standing exercises that we do after the sitting meditation.  Also palms over ears and palms over crown point.  I assumed that these were part of sealing the openings to prevent energy leakage, particularly from the crown point.

 

No question whatsoever, in my system and experience, that the cultivation of Yi is more efficient in seated practice and is then applied to moving practices, whether they be neigong, qigong, or martial. My teacher's emphasis was always strongly martial. And I'm open to the fact that it's different and equally effective in other systems.

At the end of the day, it is all a mental construct and an approximation/interpretation of what is.

 

I don't buy into the whole energy leakage thing...

To think that I am an impervious Qi container does not fit with my personal experience or view of the nature of Qi.

For me, the Qi is continuous inside and outside. Certainly there are gradients, concentrations, fluxes, flows, and so forth but the materialistic implications that some views of Qi seem to imply just don't work for me. 

I recognize that there are those who have this view and respect that we have different approaches.

We have practices that involve covering the ears and eyes but it is not related to energy leakage, more related to healing and rejuvenating type thing.  

Edited August 2, 2017 by steve

[blue eyed snake]

13 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The marrow pathway is travelling upwards, however is not the meridian pathway. There is a hole in the vertebra, which is the path of internal alchemy. It is connected with the nerve stem, the nerves of the brain and the meridians. It does not exist singly, as the nerve system is like a tree. It is called the ‘Hidden Stream’, the unseen flow of water, also known by the name of the “Yellow River”.  This Yang Qi ascends up this pathway and goes straight above to Spinal Strait behind the Middle Cinnabar Field, as well as opposite the apex of the internal kidneys. It is extremely hard for Qi to ascend to this point. This is called the Spinal Strait Barrier. Furthermore rising to the back of the brain, it is called the Jade Pillow Barrier.
These are the body’s three barriers.

If one arrives at the border, one is asked for one’s passport and whether one carries any dangerous goods in the luggage. In Wudang Mountain one will come across the Three Heavenly Gates on the way up to the Golden Peak. Only when one opens the first gate, can one continue one’s climb. One’s spine is one’s ladder. During everyday life one prepares for this journey. The Gate keeper is extremely ferocious and powerful. There are tough examinations.

 

One must practice and have first hand experience to truly understand.the process. Most important is proper character to get past the barriers or gates.

 

thanks, I must admit I always sort of choke on all the terminology. But this post touched me. Maybe I'm wrong, but reminds me of the kundalini-energy rising up. also having several ( and I think 3) barriers when going up the spine.

[Starjumper]

41 minutes ago, steve said:

I don't buy into the whole energy leakage thing...

To think that I am an impervious Qi container does not fit with my personal experience or view of the nature of Qi.

For me, the Qi is continuous inside and outside. Certainly there are gradients, concentrations, fluxes, flows, and so forth but the materialistic implications that some views of Qi seem to imply just don't work for me. 

I recognize that there are those who have this view and respect that we have different approaches.

We have practices that involve covering the ears and eyes but it is not related to energy leakage, more related to healing and rejuvenating type thing.  

 

In the beginning I assumed that putting palms over eyes was for healing eyes, but then I read about sealing the openings, and to be honest that strikes me as a bit of poetic exaggeration, something Taoists seem to be really good at.  That's the problem with reading stuff.  

 

Anyway, concerning preventing leakage; after doing the chi kung for awhile we would experience energy pouring out our hands when the hands were relaxed and open, just during random activities, and teacher said that to stop wasting the energy that we put the fingertips of our middle two fingers on the palm chakra.  This creates a sort of short circuit and causes an energy loop which keeps the energy inside.  Some years later I experienced huge amounts of energy going out my head top and it would itch like crazy.  Teacher said that we shouldn't scratch the itch because that would make the energy go away, but rather put our palms on our head tops for a bit, which I assumed was pushing it back down and/or better said, it provided an input contrary to the outward flow, to help neutralize energy pouring out that way, but it poured out quite a lot anyway, enough for people who had the 'sight' to see it.  However we were NOT to use intent to influence the energy flow out the top of our head in either direction.  I told him I tried that once and he got plenty pissed off, which was something rare for him.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Starjumper

[steve]

Thanks for sharing that.

Like I said, we all have our different paradigms and experiences.

I respect all legitimate traditions and am open to the possibility that there are different yet equally valid approaches to this stuff.

[idquest]

1 hour ago, steve said:

I don't buy into the whole energy leakage thing...

To think that I am an impervious Qi container does not fit with my personal experience or view of the nature of Qi.

For me, the Qi is continuous inside and outside. Certainly there are gradients, concentrations, fluxes, flows, and so forth but the materialistic implications that some views of Qi seem to imply just don't work for me. 

I recognize that there are those who have this view and respect that we have different approaches.

We have practices that involve covering the ears and eyes but it is not related to energy leakage, more related to healing and rejuvenating type thing.  

 

Do you employ three bottom locks in your system (I mean anus, huiyin, qianyin)? And if yes, what function (other than to prevent leakage) do they perform? Just curious.

 

Thanks.

[Wu Ming Jen]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

thanks, I must admit I always sort of choke on all the terminology. But this post touched me. Maybe I'm wrong, but reminds me of the kundalini-energy rising up. also having several ( and I think 3) barriers when going up the spine.

Experience is everything IMO When one has experienced the terminology only points to understanding and is understood in a vast array of words that even have the same meaning.

 

Knowing is doing and doing is truly knowing. Call it by ten thousand names, break it into pieces, Pineal, pituitary  sun and moon, quantum, differentiation of the sameness.it is all one energy no matter how small we like to dice it.

 

Once I cut up reality into tiny pieces only to find I could not see the celestial design. 

[steve]

2 hours ago, idquest said:

 

Do you employ three bottom locks in your system (I mean anus, huiyin, qianyin)? And if yes, what function (other than to prevent leakage) do they perform? Just curious.

 

Thanks.

 

No

[Mudfoot]

16 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

That's a funny accent you have there, but I can't quite place it, is it Italian.  

Hip hop?

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, Fangshi said:

This is an interesting post. Could you please share some more on this? Thanks in advance.

 

Visualization can work for some things but it's also the kind of thing that is more likely to cause chi problems and energy psychosis.

 

One of the problems with visualization is mistaking imagination for intent.  I think that visualization is really supposed to be the use of intent, like the most common is when someone is doing the MCO and just imagining they are doing it thoroughly when in fact they are missing some areas because they're actually using imagination and failing to use intent or feeling (for those areas).

 

For many schools visualization is absolutely wrong, and mentioning it would upset my chi kung teacher more than anything else..  Like in the nei kung systems which are so closely related to self defense.  You want the power to manifest with movement, and automatically with movement or posture, the mind is way too slow for self defense.  Also visualization completely misses a very important part of cultivation, which is using your hands as your energy tools and cultivating power in those tools.  Whether a person is a healer or Jedi, they need the chi power in their hands.

 

Another thing about visualization is it is fundamentalist in nature, telling energy where to go may not be where you need it to go for health or self improvement.  If you use movement and posture you can cultivate energy 'all over' and it automatically goes where it needs to for maximum health benefit.

 

I say it is fundamentalist because it is taking something that is natural, movement, which has many other benefits that visualization completely lacks, and instead substituting arbitrary mental exercises that only cover a fraction of the energy bases that should be covered.

 

Another thing about intent.  If you train by using movement and postures then your ability to use intent gains in power.

 

In our system it is perfectly fine to use intent to move energy outside your body, which is one way the Jedi stuff works, but against the rules to use it inside your body, where it could cause harm or weakness.

 

Another thing is that very advanced masters like my teacher would meditate and use intent to get rid of sick energy he picks up from being around sickies, but that is because they are super sensitive to their internal condition, and are using intent for a specific healing purpose in themselves,  not doing some random visualization energy exercise because they read about it in some book. 

[Starjumper]

3 hours ago, Fangshi said:

With that description of moving energy outside the body, do you mean as in circling the small universe, at the 'wei qi' level?
Like in circling in the protective energy field that surrounds us?

 

No, it's possible to use intent to move energy at varying distances, and in whichever direction you wish, it has nothing to do with circulating energy around yourself but rather to influence others.  The method to train this should remain unknown to the public, but according to one of my chi kung brothers and kung fu teachers it could be used to stop someone's heart or break their neck (he had tons more power and practice than I do) when they were fairly far away.  Once he tried it on his foot to test it and broke three bones in his foot.  The best I've been able to do is sometimes influence where a person will sit when picking a seat, like having an attractive lady sit closer at a dinner table or having a big round guy not sit directly in front of me at the movies.  You know, they're about to set down and suddenly move over before landing.  Once I used it to calm a little (like 3 - 4 yr. old) boy who was crying who was about 12 feet away by sending some of his head energy down to his lower tan tien and his crying stopped instantly and he got a look of amazement on his face.

[Brian]

19 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

No, it's possible to use intent to move energy at varying distances, and in whichever direction you wish, it has nothing to do with circulating energy around yourself but rather to influence others.  The method to train this should remain unknown to the public, but according to one of my chi kung brothers and kung fu teachers it could be used to stop someone's heart or break their neck (he had tons more power and practice than I do) when they were fairly far away.  Once he tried it on his foot to test it and broke three bones in his foot.  The best I've been able to do is sometimes influence where a person will sit when picking a seat, like having an attractive lady sit closer at a dinner table or having a big round guy not sit directly in front of me at the movies.  You know, they're about to set down and suddenly move over before landing.  Once I used it to calm a little (like 3 - 4 yr. old) boy who was crying who was about 12 feet away by sending some of his head energy down to his lower tan tien and his crying stopped instantly and he got a look of amazement on his face.

Intent (not visualization) is a part of energetic healing in some systems, too -- typically only when asked to help.

[Brian]

47 minutes ago, Fangshi said:

I found it very interesting in what you said about it ruining progress in the daoist path. I originally thought you were talking about healing people from a distance, then I realized you probably were talking about the small universe, as in healing yourself.

EDIT: it would be really great if you could offer your view on this if you don't mind.

 

It's something I'm very interested in. My father actually died from a heart attack last year, and it's all so weird, also with the small universe and all. I still feel up to this day, somebody interfered with me, and it lead to my fathers death.

I'm not the person who said it but it does apply to the healer as well.  Using "the thinking mind" to manipulate energy is a self-limiting path.

[Starjumper]

56 minutes ago, Brian said:

Intent (not visualization) is a part of energetic healing in some systems, too -- typically only when asked to help.

 

I wasn't aware of this but it makes sense.  My teacher Sid, the CIA guy did it on me.  Once when I came to class he looked me in the eyes and I felt energy moving in my head.  I asked him about it and he said he was balancing out some of my head energy (too lopsided =).  A person would have to be very perceptive and sensitive to feel if there was a need and what that need was.

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Fangshi said:

I found it very interesting in what you said about it ruining progress in the daoist path. I originally thought you were talking about healing people from a distance, then I realized you probably were talking about the small universe, as in healing yourself.

EDIT: it would be really great if you could offer your view on this if you don't mind.

 

I'm not really getting what you are asking for here.  Could you restate that?  I think I already covered it somewhat earlier in this thread.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Starjumper

[Brian]

17 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I wasn't aware of this but it makes sense.  My teacher Sid, the CIA guy did it on me.  Once when I came to class he looked me in the eyes and I felt energy moving in my head.  I asked him about it and he said he was balancing out some of my head energy (too lopsided =).  A person would have to be very perceptive and sensitive to feel if there was a need and what that need was.

The "ask" or permission for some types of "help" can be implicit in the teacher-student relationship.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Sometime when too much energy is given to concentration of breath or movement of energy with MCO techniques  it actually stagnates energy and breath itself, nullifying the whole process..

 

Visualization is a tool that leads to feeling, once the tool has been used and feeling is established. the tool is no longer necessary.

Rising and falling, suspended between heaven and earth, all things follow the natural order with no resistance, all things are in harmony the greatest symphony ever to be heard.

 

Training mind to follow chi and chi to follow mind what a marvelous wonder. 

 

I did it this way and I did it that way. Then I came upon the way. The way was not way out of the way,  it was close to home the whole time. Who keeps the way so out there but it is so close to home???? .

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Wu Ming Jen

[Wu Ming Jen]

I will not forget your father . I will honor your father right next to you. feeling responsibility is natural  healing first let all things follow.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Fangshi said:

 

That is a fact.

This is actually a hard line concept I'm dealing with right now.

 

Forget what I said about my father and all that, not sure why I brought that up, in fact it would be great if you guys could remove that part from your quotes if you don't mind.

 

Thanks alot for sharing that. Alot of your posts, you shine alot of wisdom through them. Thanks.

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Wu Ming Jen

[voidisyinyang]

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

No, it's possible to use intent to move energy at varying distances, and in whichever direction you wish, it has nothing to do with circulating energy around yourself but rather to influence others.  The method to train this should remain unknown to the public, but according to one of my chi kung brothers and kung fu teachers it could be used to stop someone's heart or break their neck (he had tons more power and practice than I do) when they were fairly far away.  Once he tried it on his foot to test it and broke three bones in his foot.  The best I've been able to do is sometimes influence where a person will sit when picking a seat, like having an attractive lady sit closer at a dinner table or having a big round guy not sit directly in front of me at the movies.  You know, they're about to set down and suddenly move over before landing.  Once I used it to calm a little (like 3 - 4 yr. old) boy who was crying who was about 12 feet away by sending some of his head energy down to his lower tan tien and his crying stopped instantly and he got a look of amazement on his face.

 

I had two moms thank me - both strangers, African-Americans but in different locations, for when their children suddenly stopped crying. haha. It is interesting how different cultures will acknowledge the energy more easily in a positive way. A Native American big guy also thanked me once - again a total stranger but at first he had tons of anger in him, so I was shocked when he thanked me.

[Starjumper]

15 hours ago, Fangshi said:

Quote

but even then it is detrimental to the Taoist path of the wizard to the point of negating progress, so I won't do it

 

I find it interesting what you say about ruining further progress in the daoist path, as you mentioned here:

 

OK I see now, keep in mind the key word there is wizard.  There are lots of different sects in Taoism.  Some of them wear silly hats and no pants and their goal is to be able to pull a freight car with their genitals.

 

In my book a Taoist wizard is a very advanced chi kung master, the kind that avoid publicity and are usually unknown to the public.  I know cuz I seen one.  To become a wizard requires cultivating a lot of different things, and people aren't going to get there by sitting around with their finger in their nose and mental jerking off (mental MCO).  At best I view mental MCO as a waste of time, and to get to wizard requires a very efficient use of time, of every minute of practice, in other words all high power stuff.

 

In fact, speaking of jerking off, what strikes me as funny is the Taoist tradition of celibacy, which includes no jerking off, and then doing only mental exercises, which is mental jerking off, and having a different kind of orgasm, whoopy doo!  I prefer the old fashioned way.  Physical chi kung and physical sex.  

 

I think this concept of celibacy was developed by old men with no sex drive and for some reason young people think they need to go against nature and do what the ancient ones did.  I think Li Ching Yuen presents another way.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

17 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 ... but according to one of my chi kung brothers and kung fu teachers it could be used to stop someone's heart or break their neck (he had tons more power and practice than I do) when they were fairly far away.  Once he tried it on his foot to test it and broke three bones in his foot.

 

This requires some more explaining.  I'm a bit skeptical of the first two claims but I've seen some of his abilities at works so feel they are entirely possible.  Concerning breaking his foot, some may think it not likely that he would do it to his own foot, but what happened was that, as an experiment, he did the technique mentioned earlier down near floor level and once it got going then he put his foot in/kicked the spot because he didn't know what to expect.  He said he had been planning on doing it to one of his training partner's necks but decided to try it with his foot first.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Starjumper

[Aletheia]

 

 

[Aletheia]

This is as close as most people here are going get to getting it - (turn up the bass for this one!)

 

ENJOY!

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Aletheia

[Starjumper]

I recalled another story about this moving energy outside your body with mind intent.  A different chi kung brother from the one mentioned above told me about this.  He was visiting a city and one of his acquaintances invited him to stay at his house.  It turns out that he didn't invite him as a friend but in order to test his fighting skills.  So that night they were sitting in his living room and the guy says something like "what would you do if I attacked you?" and bro answered he didn't know, so the other offered to attack to find out and bro said, no, he didn't want to.  At that the house owner got up and started coming for him, so what my bro did is he used the technique on the guys stomach and the guy doubled over in pain and fell to the floor.  That was the end of that.

 

The interesting part is what happened the next day.  When the homeowner returned from work in the evening he said: "I've been thinking all day about that thing you did last night and it never happened!"

 

Can you believe it?  If it never happened then how could the guy have been thinking all day about something that never happened?  That's actually a common response.

[Aletheia]

I love a good story. Hold on one second I'll just jot that down so I don't forget it...