Mabu stance

[WhiteTiger]

psoas muscle can not contract like a muscle.

 

Then it isn't a muscle, there is a contradiction already. Just restating: there are three different types of muscles in the body. They all are built differently to contract for different reasons, so they contract slightly differently as a whole.

 

Thanks for your insights WT. How about the Psoas muscle? What kind of muscle is that? Someone told me that the psoas muscle can not contract like a muscle. This contradicts what some teachers, like mantak chia, talk about in their taoyin program to exercise this muscle. Do you have any experience on that?

T

 

Must like this is a Misinterpretation psoas muscle is a skeletal muscle. It is flexed voluntarily. According to Wikipedia it flexes and rotates laterally thigh. I don't know exercises that target this muscle, but honestly wouldn't be to hard to learn, for me at least. Find a good teacher... always good to have good connections. specially if your into this sort of thing. Also when working out... try or attempt to learn your progress through non action. While practicing non action try to look inward.

 

psoas muscle can not contract like a muscle.

 

Then it isn't a muscle. There is a contradiction already. Just restating: there are three different types of muscles in the body. They all are built differently to be used for different reasons. So they have slightly different functions but yet similar. Unless there is a forth type of muscle and that is it. If you think about it, this muscle would have to serve a slightly different function then all the other three types of muscles.

 

Interesting...but what do you mean by bones not primarily transferring forces, but acting like spacers?

 

Aren't vector forces in our bodies transmitted by bones? And a spacer would transfer forces, just the same, if it is in that line of force, right?

 

I reread parts of my post and i didn't clearly explain some things about how bones transfer force without even getting into the physics of it. Northern systems like Mi Sung Chuan (and others) standing straight up you lower your weight and push of with one leg. Keeping in mind important principles of he Three Outer Harmonies

 

Shoulder turns with the hip.

Elbow and knee act in unison.

Hand moves with the foot.

 

and keep in mind these External Connections

 

Feet - Knees

Knees - Hips

Hips - Shoulders

 

as turning into a straight bow and arrow stance, KungBu then fully extend you fist. Right there. you have learned how to use your whole weight of the body. To add the extra force of you pushing off with the leg once you learn how to do that with continuously having your body weight at a low but continuously same plane. (as long as your waist is on the same plane never picking up or droping more) On top of that if your conditioned well you get a powerful blow. Super basic, some of the first things you learn nothing special. You learn that the extension of your body, the body alignment and your bones play a big role in making this happen. This example is supposed to slightly give you an idea or illustration of how your bones are used to primarily transfer force.

 

Maybe the question is what should we define as force. In Southern systems they often use Whiping power. Most general or common example of this is the whipping power of the waste. Fi Ching (don't know how to properly spell it) the wiping power from a mabu stance and extending your your fist as your turn into a bow and arrow stance is whipping power of the waist. (i didn't study or practice southern Kung Fu so please bare with me) the fact that you used the force of your waist whipping is where the energy is happening. But more importantly the fact that your bones hold your structure of your body. Nor your fist is extended more so then if you were just in a straight mabu and extending your fist. this is basically because your waist and shoulder is moved your shoulder is facing one of your sides. This means the extra you gained some reach. with this reach it is because of your bones themselves that hold your structure together like i said and the extra reach with the power of the whipping the waist packs a bunch. Specially if your have practiced this and learned how to give power. Also known as Strong Fi Ching.

 

 

 

WhiteTiger - Interesting. So, both mover and stabilizer muscles would qualify as voluntary skeletal muscles?

 

Yep thats correct! Skeletal muscles serve as both... Mover and stabilizer is more of a term, for a type of action that your muscles can do. Some muscles serve more as a mover while others serve more as a stabilizer. But they act in unity. If you study how muscles contract and work the muscle itself has to have some range of motion to work. Some might be smaller then others though. Meaning that they serve more as stabilizer muscles, while bigger ones serve as mover muscles. Then it gets into physics of how they are placed and strands are. How they contract... angles vectors So forth and so forth. (in the end depends what motion your doing to serve what purpose.

 

Hope this stuff helps

Edited January 5, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Buddy]

"In Southern systems they often use Whiping power. Most general or common example of this is the whipping power of the waste. Fi Ching (don't know how to properly spell it) the wiping power from a mabu stance and extending your your fist as your turn into a bow and arrow stance is whipping power of the waist. (i didn't study or practice southern Kung Fu so please bare with me) the fact that you used the force of your waist whipping is where the energy is happening."

 

Why would you attempt to explain something you admit you don't know? Horse stance is just horse stance. Any stance can be used for "standing like a post."

Edited January 5, 2008 by Buddy

[WhiteTiger]

"In Southern systems they often use Whiping power. Most general or common example of this is the whipping power of the waste. Fi Ching (don't know how to properly spell it) the wiping power from a mabu stance and extending your your fist as your turn into a bow and arrow stance is whipping power of the waist. (i didn't study or practice southern Kung Fu so please bare with me) the fact that you used the force of your waist whipping is where the energy is happening."

 

This is correct. I'm here talking about an action. Not standing like a post. When you were in horse stance while whipping your waist (your waist and your shoulders should be square, or parallel) extend your fist. The heel of the right foot should move back putting your right foot in a 45 degree angle. Depending exactly what southern style they might make slight adjustments on your left foot to move in a 45 degree just like your right but there are some that have it stay planted. Body weight must be low, the lower you are the more you can play with the weight you have to whip with. You should be in a Kung Bu (bow and arrow stance) now with your first extended.

 

 

This is describing something I do know and thaddeus said, "For example, many people believe the bones are used primarily to transfer forces, that may not be true, they may be more like spacers in the body." Many martial artists do believe that bones are used to transfer force. (primarily i don't know where you got that idea from... that makes me think that you are describing as the main use of the bones, while they already serve many other uses. Taoist Texts talk about unity, the Ultimate One, where things or everything is connected are we missing this understanding? The bone is one with the body, it serves its function that maybe many different things some might be small parts of what the bones are used for and other might be big parts of what the bones are used for in the body) I didn't study a southern martial art for years. This is an example of a move an action. Generating force, or creating power. This was just another good example. I thought because i know less in depth about it it would serve as a better example because it wouldn't get so complicated in explanation verbally, without showing you through a video. I would say I don't really know, because honestly I'm practicing humbling myself. I'm not a teacher, I'm not a an expert on the subject, i don't know a whole system of a southern kung fu, I don't know a big part of a a southern system because i studied it for years. Do you know anything about southern martial arts? This explanation of using power is a good one. Makes me wonder if you know what your talking about. please enlighten me if you know about any southern style, maybe i could learn a thing or two otherwise, i don't know why you would say such a thing honestly.

 

Why would you attempt to explain something you admit you don't know? Horse stance is just horse stance. Any stance can be used for "standing like a post."

 

To tell you the truth to say something to be is like discriminating me, telling me that what i know is no good. Making me look as if I don't know much (at least to others, when you put it in words like this) Unless you know better and think my example poor. Please explain so i can learn, just like the reason i wrote anything in this post.

 

Question: Do you study Southern Kung Fu? If so, willing to give a better example? If not, can you give a better examples then I gave for how the bones are used to transfer force?

 

 

Side Note: This whipping motion is found in many Southern Styles, like so well known Hung Gar. Buddy I think you missed the whole point... did you read what we were talking about. The Subject has slightly changed. Was trying to give an idea of how Bones are used to transfer force.

[Buddy]

"Do you study Southern Kung Fu? If so, willing to give a better example? If not, can you give a better examples then I gave for how the bones are used to transfer force?"

 

Many years ago, I studied Hung Ga Fu Hok with the late great Lee Yat Ming.

But my primary interest for the last 25 years or so has been the so called internal martial arts. I studied for over ten years with Bruce Kumar Frantzis and for the last seven or so with Luo Dexiu of the Yizong system.

Bones do what the muscles tell them to do. The whole structure of the body, meaning in this case, the skeletal system, transfers force via pengjin. But nothing exists in isolation. I can receive your force in a static position just using my structure. But I need other things for fajin. It's easier to feel it than write about it.

[steve]

Zhan zhuang meditation has got nothing to do with Mabu stance conditioning for Neijia.

 

I disagree, please explain why u think it has nothing to do with Zhan Zhuang?

 

You dont know what arts i practise or anything how i train my Mabu that is a very narrow minded answer!!!

In the majority of martial arts systems (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean), mabu training is primarily used to strengthen the legs through physically demanding, isometric contraction. Throughout all stages of training mabu, fatigue and lactic acidosis of the quadriceps is characteristic due to prolonged muscle contraction (and quite uncomfortable). Mabu is utilized very widely in "external" styles and relatively little in internal styles.

 

A primary purpose of zhang zhuang is to develop song, a relaxed structure that keeps the body in a given posture utilizing a minimum of muscular tension. Lactic acidosis in the thigh muscles is much less pronounced and it is generally acceptable, and often encouraged, to move around a bit to relieve tension and discomfort during standing, unlike mabu. It is relatively easy (physically) to practice basic zhan zhuang for 30 minutes within a few weeks of beginning practice. How many people can stand in mabu for 30 minutes?

 

Mabu training emphasizes muscle tension in the quads. Zhan zhuang usually does not employ as much overt muscle contraction - most postures are closer to natural standing. The way I experience it, mabu maximizes thigh muscle contraction whereas most zhan zhuang postures minimize it.

 

Clearly there are exceptions (santi shi is a good example yet most of us who practice mabu and santi would probably agree there are substantial differences - I routinely stand in santi for 30 minutes on each side - I can't imagine 30 minutes of good mabu). I would agree that it is reasonable to make a distinction between the goals and benefits of mabu training versus zhan zhuang, in general. Certainly there is overlap between the two but there is real difference as well.

Edited January 6, 2008 by xuesheng

[Jakara]

 

as far as i know the person in the photo is a gentleman called Tom Kurtz...

 

... i would like to see that picutre from a side on view to see how straight his spine is, but never the less the lack of structure between his knees and his hips means that he is using too much muscle to hold that stance...

 

 

Yes his name is Tom Kurtz, he isn't a martial artist, here is the original article which includes a side view:

 

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=13

 

He uses the stances as a means to getting into box splits, they are for stretching and not for martial arts use. Perhaps this was a bad example to link for the context of the horse stance being asked about. I linked them because it shows the angles of his back, legs, feet etc. - they aren't hidden with big baggy kungfu pants.

 

He describes the stance as a "5 step" horse stance, but for kungfu one would use more of a 3 or 4 "step" stance which is therefore a little higher up with the thighs not quite so far apart.

 

If you're a horse stance practitioner im sure you'll agree that your body strengthens and flexibility increases significantly over a period of time allowing for a deeper stance without reduced mobility.

 

At the end of it all its best to get someone accomplished in horse stance to show how to do a proper horse stance in person. Pictures are fine but only give part of the story as cleary shown by this thread. You don't need a "kungfu master" to show you, just a practitioner with good form.

[mYTHmAKER]

Check out these guys horse stance

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SGFqbU_hKfA&...feature=related

[Yoda]

Awesome war cries! Who won?

[WhiteTiger]

In the majority of martial arts systems (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean), mabu training is primarily used to strengthen the legs through physically demanding, isometric contraction. Throughout all stages of training mabu, fatigue and lactic acidosis of the quadriceps is characteristic due to prolonged muscle contraction (and quite uncomfortable). Mabu is utilized very widely in "external" styles and relatively little in internal styles.

 

A primary purpose of zhang zhuang is to develop song, a relaxed structure that keeps the body in a given posture utilizing a minimum of muscular tension. Lactic acidosis in the thigh muscles is much less pronounced and it is generally acceptable, and often encouraged, to move around a bit to relieve tension and discomfort during standing, unlike mabu. It is relatively easy (physically) to practice basic zhan zhuang for 30 minutes within a few weeks of beginning practice. How many people can stand in mabu for 30 minutes?

 

Mabu training emphasizes muscle tension in the quads. Zhan zhuang usually does not employ as much overt muscle contraction - most postures are closer to natural standing. The way I experience it, mabu maximizes thigh muscle contraction whereas most zhan zhuang postures minimize it.

 

Clearly there are exceptions (santi shi is a good example yet most of us who practice mabu and santi would probably agree there are substantial differences - I routinely stand in santi for 30 minutes on each side - I can't imagine 30 minutes of good mabu). I would agree that it is reasonable to make a distinction between the goals and benefits of mabu training versus zhan zhuang, in general. Certainly there is overlap between the two but there is real difference as well.

 

Very well said... And i agree with it all. I didn't even think of talking about lactic acid. Yes, practice of Mabu stance static. is for strengthening. When you go deeper and into one more properly, for martial use you become more flexible in the areas you need to achieve a better mabu. But mabu in its use is used in movement you don't stay there... in external to achieve your path or to evolve, you must eventually turn into intneral, or let go. You can not fill an empty vessel fully with the use of cultivation of external. never will it get 100%. You can never go against the Tao. Even when you go a different path, then some preach you still are most likely not going against the Tao, if you do you will not be going against the tao for long. You gain these abilities going along with the Tao. (Btw, lactic acid is calmed to be a way to do external turning it into internal from the way of trying to bring about as much lactic acid, i tried to understand this a little more but realized its kinda pointless in theory. The ability to learn how to raise up the ability to deal with as much lactic acid... its the reasons why External has its uses) According to internalists (i said that for a few different reasons i'm not just talking about internal martial artists, also talking about anyone whom does Internal Alchemy, or just plan works on the inner) at higher levels if you continue things start to unfold. Whereas you stay healthy and the things you just happen to be surviving you eventually overcome this. The fact that the mind wants to choose to stick to a external to be in control is straying from internal.

Edited January 7, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Gerard]

Awesome war cries! Who won?

 

LOL! I am trying to figure it out as well.

 

 

Addressing Buddy's anger towards my statement,

 

You said:

 

"ZZ is too static "

 

Yes it is, you are not moving physically; hence it's static.

 

TOO static? It's a static exercise.

 

"It would be the best Qigong because you are not moving externally, hence qi flow is faster."

 

Yes, I agree. Best Qigong of the whole lot but ineffective as a martial art.

 

 

Anyway, I get very tired and hungry like an elephant when I practice ZZ but not right afterwards, which happens that I don't feel like to eat for at least 4 hours (good sign as it shows that internal alchemy is speeding up and therefore less need to take care of the physical body). Eventually I need to eat a lot after a mere 10 min ZZ session in order to replenish the work exerted by the whole body against gravity.

 

So how can I fit Mabu in my routine and let alone IMA after ZZ practice? Impossible? Maybe I need to work more on achieving a 110% relaxed state during ZZ practice? It could be a dauting task for someone living in busy society.

[thaddeus]

Clearly there are exceptions (santi shi is a good example yet most of us who practice mabu and santi would probably agree there are substantial differences - I routinely stand in santi for 30 minutes on each side - I can't imagine 30 minutes of good mabu). I would agree that it is reasonable to make a distinction between the goals and benefits of mabu training versus zhan zhuang, in general. Certainly there is overlap between the two but there is real difference as well.

besides the obvious, what do you think is different between mabu and santi from an internal perspective? Many would argue santi is much harder than mabu. Santi can be brutal.

T

[Buddy]

"Addressing Buddy's anger towards my statement,"

 

No, anger. I only said "TOO static? It's a static exercise."

 

Not the other stuff. That was someone else.

BTW, my thinking is closer to thaddeus. All stancework can be used for personal development. How low you go in stance is a physical decision.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Buddy

[steve]

besides the obvious, what do you think is different between mabu and santi from an internal perspective? Many would argue santi is much harder than mabu. Santi can be brutal.

T

My thoughts FWIW -

 

What do we mean by internal perspective?

In part, santi standing involves isometric muscle contraction and strengthens muscle, improving strength and endurance. I'm going to label that "external" benefit.

 

Does santi (and zhan zhuang in general) do anything else for us?

My answer would be yes. I think most xingyi teachers encourage long periods of standing in santi (30 minutes to an hour). This certainly increases the "external" benefit to the musles in any particular posture (my shoulders and rear leg used to scream in santi), however, I don't think that is the only, or even the primary function of zhan zhuang. I think there is more. There is a reason why zhan zhuang postures are less physically demanding than mabu, kung bu, shi bu, pan bu, and so on. My personal opinion is that the postures need to be able to be held for long periods of time to have the effect we're after that I would call "internal".

 

Long periods of standing still have an effect on the mind. We learn to deal with physical and mental inactivity. As the thoughts quiet and we become accustomed to the physical strain of the posture, the mind begins to become more sensitive to subtle things that are usually part of the background noise. Our brains work by selecting out which sensory data to pay attention to and act on. The connection of mind and body is mostly outside of our conscious attention. How often do we really pay attention to things like muscle tension, position of the body in space, workings of the internal milieu, and so on? Probably during meditation or qigong of some sort, certain martial arts or athletic activities, and otherwise very rarely.

 

Zhan zhuang, in my experience, helps me to experience my posture - my physical being, if you will, and develops a level of connection between awareness and the body that generally is not paid specific attention to. Over a long period of time, this different level of awareness affects our martial practice. That's where I think the "internal" aspect of internal arts comes from, at least in part. The almost instantaneous adoption of optimal posture, the heightened sensitivity and responsiveness, which is proper timing, the ability to generate increased and a somewhat different sort of power as a result. The ability to maintain song and relaxation and then express fajin through whole body coordination. These sorts of things are what I derive from standing, circle walking, taiji form practice, all of which I consider "internal" training methods. These sorts of things ultimately are what seems (at least to me) to separate the methods of internal and external training.

 

It's a lot easier to experience this stuff than describe it and for those who haven't trained in both internal and external arts, it may sound like a load of bullshit. I find that when I read or hear about an internal martial technique or experience it means little or nothing to me if I haven't yet experienced it. Once I have experienced it, the reading validates the experience and is suddenly meaningful. I had that happen while reading the taiji classics as well as a brilliant book called the Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien-Ying. The first time I tried to read it I got through one or two chapters then gave up - it seemed like total mumbo jumbo. Second time, about 1/3 of the book. Last time - the entire book, although I didn't get everything, but the difference each time was remarkable.

 

In the long run, external and internal training achieve very similar goals, at least in a martial sense. As Chen Pan Ling puts it in his book - internal arts start with the soft and find the hard whereas external arts progress in the opposite direction, both achieving the same ultimate martial result.

[thaddeus]

My thoughts FWIW -

 

What do we mean by internal perspective?

I mean other than the obvious weight placement and arm positions, why do you think mabu is harder than santi? I think santi with the majority of weight on one leg (depending on the nuances of your particular style) is alot harder than mabu.

fwiw, no one who ever taught me a standing practice indicated that one should just 'stand there', there's alot of stuff and micromovement going on in all the disciplines I've come across..

T

[rain]

........................

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[steve]

I mean other than the obvious weight placement and arm positions, why do you think mabu is harder than santi? I think santi with the majority of weight on one leg (depending on the nuances of your particular style) is alot harder than mabu.

fwiw, no one who ever taught me a standing practice indicated that one should just 'stand there', there's alot of stuff and micromovement going on in all the disciplines I've come across..

T

It's important to define what you mean by harder. More pain in the rear leg? Impatience with the longer period of inactivity? More tension in the shoulders?

Are you able to hold mabu longer than santi? Is that what you mean by santi being "harder"? I'm not sure I understand.

 

When I practice santi I pretty much keep the weight ~ 70/30, more or less. Mabu 50/50, of course. I can do santi for an hour (30 minutes per side) but I can't do mabu for more than 5 minutes - maybe I could do 10 if I really pushed it, but I don't and never have gone that long. With mabu training my knees are flexed nearly 90 degrees. In santi, my rear knee is closer to 30 degrees. I think that's the difference in terms of begin able to hold the posture for a long time. Biomechanically, the pressure on the knee at 90 degrees is considerably more than at 30 degrees. Simple physics.

[thaddeus]

When I practice santi I pretty much keep the weight ~ 70/30, more or less. Mabu 50/50, of course. I can do santi for an hour (30 minutes per side) but I can't do mabu for more than 5 minutes - maybe I could do 10 if I really pushed it, but I don't and never have gone that long. With mabu training my knees are flexed nearly 90 degrees. In santi, my rear knee is closer to 30 degrees. I think that's the difference in terms of begin able to hold the posture for a long time. Biomechanically, the pressure on the knee at 90 degrees is considerably more than at 30 degrees. Simple physics.

ok, i got what you mean. I have been fortunate enough to meet some very good internal teachers. When my posture is corrected, regardless of height/knee angle, the pressure is almost unbearable. 30 minutes is a phenomonal achievement under the watchful eye of a master. The problem is most of us unknowingly cheat when we are by ourselves because correct posture is so hard. One famous chen style teacher suggests that 3 minutes is pretty darn good. I am aware of the other thread on 'disrespect' so I'm not saying this in a bad way, just sharing information. In fact, this thread is inspiring me to commit more to internal training.

T

[steve]

ok, i got what you mean. I have been fortunate enough to meet some very good internal teachers. When my posture is corrected, regardless of height/knee angle, the pressure is almost unbearable. 30 minutes is a phenomonal achievement under the watchful eye of a master. The problem is most of us unknowingly cheat when we are by ourselves because correct posture is so hard. One famous chen style teacher suggests that 3 minutes is pretty darn good. I am aware of the other thread on 'disrespect' so I'm not saying this in a bad way, just sharing information. In fact, this thread is inspiring me to commit more to internal training.

T

Cool - no disrespect or offense taken at all. It's nice to be able to discuss this stuff without it turning into a battle (like on some other forums which shan't be named...).

 

I'm a little surprised to hear a Chen teacher saying that 3 minutes is pretty darn good for santi training. I think the majority of xingyi students stand in santi for quite a bit longer than that - I'm open to correction if that's inaccurate. One difference may be in the attitude or expectations of the teacher and student. My teacher is always correcting my posture (he's quite picky) but not to the extent that I am forced to adopt a particular posture that's so painful that I can't maintain it. To me, part of the practice is to gradually approach "proper" posture by feeling it correct itself over a long period of time through practice. Just like in the taiji form, once the basic principles are understood, the form (and santi/five element practice) can be a self correcting exercise.

 

Similar to your comments, I don't mean to tell you how to practice, or to imply that my way is the right way, or interfere with your teacher's expectations or recommendations - just sharing my personal experience. And don't misunderstand me, santishi is NOT easy. When I first started, I was able to stand for about 1 minute. Within a few weeks, I could do 5 minutes. It took me about 6 months of daily, progressive training to achieve an hour of santishi and there is certainly some discomfort involved. I don't stand completely immobile the entire time. When I need to, I will move my waist a bit, shift the weight a bit, allow the arms to move with the feeling of internal flow - not a lot, but enough to ease some of the pressure. This little bit of movement also helps the body to feel the correct alignment.

[thaddeus]

I'm a little surprised to hear a Chen teacher saying that 3 minutes is pretty darn good for santi training.

he was talking about a modified form of mabu taken from chen style taichi..and yes it was a guideline for beginners.

xingyi is great art for internal training..

T

[steve]

he was talking about a modified form of mabu taken from chen style taichi..and yes it was a guideline for beginners.

xingyi is great art for internal training..

T

That makes sense - the Chen guys train a nice deep mabu. That's tough to do well for more than a few minutes. Again- in my mind, that is more of an external strengthening exercise. I don't think that kind of exercise done for 3 minutes has much of an "internal" effect.

[thaddeus]

That makes sense - the Chen guys train a nice deep mabu. That's tough to do well for more than a few minutes. Again- in my mind, that is more of an external strengthening exercise. I don't think that kind of exercise done for 3 minutes has much of an "internal" effect.

It does if one knows what one is training. That's the million dollar question for these arts and why there are so few really good practitioners, imo.

[mYTHmAKER]

It does if one knows what one is training. That's the million dollar question for these arts and why there are so few really good practitioners, imo.

 

My 2 cents.

The depth of your stance is a function of stretched muscle.

You may sit deep with nothing internal.

Internal can happen at any depth. Allowing the qua to sink - spine elongate.

[WhiteTiger]

ok, i got what you mean. I have been fortunate enough to meet some very good internal teachers. When my posture is corrected, regardless of height/knee angle, the pressure is almost unbearable. 30 minutes is a phenomonal achievement under the watchful eye of a master. The problem is most of us unknowingly cheat when we are by ourselves because correct posture is so hard. One famous chen style teacher suggests that 3 minutes is pretty darn good. I am aware of the other thread on 'disrespect' so I'm not saying this in a bad way, just sharing information. In fact, this thread is inspiring me to commit more to internal training.

T

 

Thats what i've been trying to say the whole time!!! Thank god you met a teacher under a watchful eye!!! And trust me when i say you also might not have the ability to go into what is considered a static stances, that has been evolved. That takes much time and practice and understanding the exercise properly. I do believe it gets more complicated talking about internal stance static trainning. If i were doing Santi For 3 minutes and it was only slightly evolved and it was a short santi, not even a medium or long one. but proper position if i could do that for three minutes i would be very proud of myself. Sucks i learned so little of Xingyi.

 

Thats what I'm talking about evolved Mabu is not easy, on the muscles and i'm not sure i ever got it into the feel of internal prosperities or at least understanding it from the feel. But the external part yes to some degree.

 

I'm a little surprised to hear a Chen teacher saying that 3 minutes is pretty darn good for santi training. I think the majority of xingyi students stand in santi for quite a bit longer than that - I'm open to correction if that's inaccurate. One difference may be in the attitude or expectations of the teacher and student. My teacher is always correcting my posture (he's quite picky) but not to the extent that I am forced to adopt a particular posture that's so painful that I can't maintain it. To me, part of the practice is to gradually approach "proper" posture by feeling it correct itself over a long period of time through practice. Just like in the taiji form, once the basic principles are understood, the form (and santi/five element practice) can be a self correcting exercise.

 

This is what i'm talking about when i talk about a stance form, or something being evolved. You start from where your at, once your body opens up more, becomes is proper alignment and just feels better (positive and good sensations) then your evolving your body! this can take years... depending on peoples body and what we are talking about evolving but yes it can take years!

 

Similar to your comments, I don't mean to tell you how to practice, or to imply that my way is the right way, or interfere with your teacher's expectations or recommendations - just sharing my personal experience. And don't misunderstand me, santishi is NOT easy. When I first started, I was able to stand for about 1 minute. Within a few weeks, I could do 5 minutes. It took me about 6 months of daily, progressive training to achieve an hour of santishi and there is certainly some discomfort involved. I don't stand completely immobile the entire time. When I need to, I will move my waist a bit, shift the weight a bit, allow the arms to move with the feeling of internal flow - not a lot, but enough to ease some of the pressure. This little bit of movement also helps the body to feel the correct alignment.

 

Agrees and understands! From small experiences might be more beginner like but still i'm with you and fully agree with you once again!

Edited January 11, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[wenwu]

morning everyone

 

most of the internal arts that i have studied have three basin (san pan) of study these refer to the different heights tht you stand at. once upon a time some one came to my teacher and just wanted to learn qi gong so my teacher let him stand in the upper basin posture, and while he was there having a hoiday my teacher went eround all the rest of us pushiong us down, reson being for internal martial arts we need the leg strenght so that we can move and still have root,

 

either way for me internal happens at any height as long as you have the correct alighment and breathing an intention. the big things for me is to practice "yin" mental strength as an external martial artist i spent a long time in really exhausting postures but they were different in the way we were feeling the work out and our mind had "food"but we battled through becasue we had somethign tangible to fight. In zhuang zhan it's not as intense and just standing there my mind starts looking for things or getting bored even when it begins to hurt, my usual feeling is to go lower and get some nice work out feeling rathr that stay there but that defeats the porpose of the whole thinsg

[Gerard]

I have noticed in this video that teacher He Jing-Han keeps a very deep but also with legs sticking to each other:

 

 

When I saw it I said: Wow! Damn, how does he keeps his legs that close?

 

I recall Shaolin monks keeping that stance in their animal forms.

 

Question:

 

I'd love to develop that stance to have a strong root. Is there an specific way to train and achieve it?

 

Thanks again.