Old habits that arise after awakening

[steve]

I can say with certainty that he did not sit in the cave in order to do anything - it is an absolutely momentous shift - it knocks speech and movement from under your feet - there is nothing what so ever to do.

 

Integration is taking place immediately - it is only integration in the sense that you are floating in non-inertia. Inertia was what the "you' the "seeker" that is no longer was. Integration is into the stillness that is what one is - Divine Essence.

 

If one is not constantly in a cave one is generally sitting frequently for very long periods of time. For at least two years I constantly just sat in a chair, or in my car in a parking lot or pulled over to the side of the road. Other than going to Qi Gong, picking up my son, eating and some very minimal running of a business that runs itself - I was constantly dropped to my knees in gratitude, stillness and the light - and constant massive energy expansions which continue constantly to this day some 5 years later. I still constantly am pulled to just sit in stillness.

 

One is not 'figuring" things out at this time - one is not preparing - it is so completely the polar opposite of this. One is doing nothing.

 

As the bodies expand into this, happening eventually takes place - re-integration into society is a piece of cake - their is no angst, no future worrying, no sense of urgency. Others are in it - the illusion - it is odd to see this and it is odd to find oneself in a family with a business the dynamics of which have completely changed. But it is not hard at all - it may require work for money etc., but in the Nowness it is simply zero problem - even if things are "difficult".

 

If one were to lose ones family, fortune and friends - that would be no problem - it would not be painful - not because of numbness but because if this were to occur it is for the best - not a sense of loss - one is not in the past.

 

You make a good point.

My choice of words was poor.

 

My experience of opening was also life-altering.

It seems disrespectful to speak of it for me somehow so I tend not to share the details.

 

The absolute perspective was suddenly there and completely overwhelmed the relative for a time but the relative slowly crept back. I can relate to dwai's OP in that some habitual patterns found their way back in to my life and i've invested time and energy in working with them.

 

With respect to integration, it's taken me time to find context for the experience and perspective so that I can find ways to do it justice and express it optimally in my relative existence - work, relationships, and so forth. It is such a precious gift, such a blessing, that to do otherwise seems contemptuous.

 

I wonder what it would have been like to simply rest in isolation for years.

Would the relative perspective have stayed at bay longer? Forever? Would my transformation/dissolution have been more profound, persistent, or different in some way? Quite likely so. There is good reason for many of the practices preserved in the wisdom traditions, such as those of isolation. I immediately returned to a life filled with family and work obligations.

 

As I think you've alluded to earlier or elsewhere, I have observed (and therefore tend to believe) that as long as the human condition exists, the relative mind/body is never completely extinguished other than perhaps for transient periods; and each of us expresses our experience of the absolute in unique ways based on our frame of reference and context. I would think that at some point and to some extent, the relative perspective was there for Ramana as well. At some point in his time in isolation I suspect there was some contemplation of the relative mind, the absolute mind, their relationship, their expression, and their mutual integration. Perhaps there was also an experience of the arising of visions as we practice in the dark retreat (I admit that I know little about Ramana's history). Then again, I could be mistaken and his transformation was so profound there was nothing but pure being the entire time he was in isolation.

[Bindi]

 
I realised a while ago after engaging with the topic of 'awakening' that I had what I would identify as an 'awakening' experience that lasted for a couple of days, brought on by a few weeks of acute distress (on top of years of milder level struggling) and a prayer asking for help.
 
In a moment the pain that had become almost unbearable disappeared, and there was a blessed silence in my mind, and while carrying on with my day normally the condition remained. The next day I woke up and noted with mild surprise that this condition was still there, but either later that day or the next day I can't remember I 'saw' thoughts entering my perfectly clear mind and floating down, and these thoughts slowly increased like leaves piling up on the ground and clogged this state until I was back to normal, all in all the refilling with thoughts took a few minutes.
 
I had a dream around this time where a wide pipe was flushed out with water a couple of times in quick succession, and it wasn't till a long time later that a constant stream of mud was flushed out of the pipe unendingly after which clear water started to fill a swimming pool from where this pipe stuck out from the bottom of the pool.
 
So this was always going to be my way, and I didn't attempt to recreate this state because I was told so clearly that it would be a long time until it happened again, and that when it did clear water would then flow and fill the pool, which I now recognise as beingclear energy filling my heart.
 
And in the meantime I have just gotten on with the work as I see it, looking at and clearing the emotional mud in my LDT for many years and for the last few years now looking at and clearing the ego superiority and inferiority in my heart, slowly clearing the way for this perfectly clear water to flow.
 
To me this clear water is energy free of any contamination and completely unobstructed, able to fill and utterly transform my heart, which is why I have such absolute views. Looking at my personal experience there was a long way to go from the first taste of 'awakening' to embodying it absolutely, while energetically much has been achieved in the meantime which I find invaluable - I understand energy and the subtle energy body in ways that have enriched me and that I wouldn't choose to be without, things which no non-dual 'awakened' teacher is talking about.
 
In a way it's like the teacher or guru who can give the student a taste of some state, but they have to make their own way to this place for it to stick, which is generally a lifetimes work. To cling to the intitial state would be counter-productive in my view, because it leaves so much depth unexplored and unrealised, and a multitude of 'pockets of ego' that Jetsun referred to.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Bindi

[Spotless]

If it is in the past it is past...  this seems more a present condition.

 

Maybe you mean there is a [karmic] past that has lead to the present attachment...

 

Can you explain more?  

In a moment a treasure or fear is latched onto.

We find "an answer" or "a revulsion".

Lifeforce clings to these and we compress these initial "pictures".

We create scenarios for them, we care for them, we covet them.

They hold us in "past" - and they were never necessary.

It is all glued in fear that we will lose them or succumb to them.

 

We live in a matrix of fear and protecting, clenched position.

It is all built from "past".

Extrapolated "future".

It is our religion, it is how we have made our way.

 

It is not cheap or lowly - it is what we have brought ourself to bear - it is beautiful suffering.

It is the illusion that will point the way by its unsatisfactory nature.

Divine Essence will find its way - it has never lost its way.

 

In Presence heart strings may be plucked but they do not cling to the beauty.

Nor do they run from weeping.

Presence stands with body and "doing" is not done.

The moment will not pass.

[Spotless]

.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Spotless

[steve]

Yours is a very stern awakening...

 

I explained that I had come here in the wake of my dear friend dying. I said that I understood the body was but a temporary abode, but no matter how many spiritual words I heard I still feel such sadness. Kannan said something to me then that I loved to hear, that even Ramana Maharshi experienced such sadness and shed tears for those who died, even though he knew that we were all eternal. This was very touching to hear. Ramana Maharshi cried too. 

 

http://susiewoo.weebly.com/tiruvannamalai.html

 

 

Now when Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet, saying to him, ^t“Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” ³³ When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he ^uwas deeply moved⁵ in his spirit and ^vgreatly troubled. ³⁴ And he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” ^35 wJesus wept. ³⁶ So the Jews said, “See ^xhow he loved him!”

John 11 32-36

 

Spotless needs no one to speak for him but i would like to add my perspective on his comments about family, friends, and fortune. I didn't take it as stern or uncaring. One characteristic present in the experience that I refer to when speaking of "awakening" is that of total continuity - in sharing my experiences with others, this seems to be consistent. A profound certainty arises regarding the nature of being and presence. The words that come to mind to describe this are birth-less, death-less, unceasing, indestructible, without center, inseparable, non-dual, limitless, unbounded, and so forth. The real-ness of this realization obliterates all fear of death and loss. It is not an absence of feeling or compassion but rather a subsumption of the isolated self that has something to lose into the wholeness of being that neither loses nor gains. That more full, non-dual perspective, in fact, gives rise to a depth of feeling and compassion that I've never previously known. 

[allinone]

Awareness is death. It is fear what brings you to the senses and clarity. Craving is in the object you have to get that entity back into you, send it to the belly to wait judgement day and whose name is not on a book of life, dies the second death.

[Orion]

It doesn't seem like awakening or realization changes the body-mind right away. The body-mind just takes place in the presence of the realized self. Over time the body-mind and the self sync up, but maybe not. We can't be too formulaic in how we discuss this.

 

IMO the biggest obstacle to understanding how this works is attachment to the idea of what it means to be perfect. Being enlightened may not mean being the salt of the earth. It might look a lot differently than your mind has setup an expectation for. It might mean an outwardly seeming flawed being but an inwardly integrated self.

[dwai]

It doesn't seem like awakening or realization changes the body-mind right away. The body-mind just takes place in the presence of the realized self. Over time the body-mind and the self sync up, but maybe not. We can't be too formulaic in how we discuss this.

 

IMO the biggest obstacle to understanding how this works is attachment to the idea of what it means to be perfect. Being enlightened may not mean being the salt of the earth. It might look a lot differently than your mind has setup an expectation for. It might mean an outwardly seeming flawed being but an inwardly integrated self.

The need for "perfection" is only from the point of view of the relative self. That which is present is free from any position, the past or the future. It has no where to go, and nothing to accomplish as it always IS. ISness is all there is.

 

But when ever the presence is apparently obscured by the relative self, it projects over-romanticized and over-idealized properties on something that does not have any properties. The "Self" is just pure awareness (objectlsss consciousness), pure being, it is perfect but not in any sense that a mind-body complex can fathom. Only way to know it is to be it. And irony is that we are never not it!

[Orion]

The need for "perfection" is only from the point of view of the relative self. That which is present is free from any position, the past or the future. It has no where to go, and nothing to accomplish as it always IS. ISness is all there is.

 

But when ever the presence is apparently obscured by the relative self, it projects over-romanticized and over-idealized properties on something that does not have any properties. The "Self" is just pure awareness (objectlsss consciousness), pure being, it is perfect but not in any sense that a mind-body complex can fathom. Only way to know it is to be it. And irony is that we are never not it!

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that suffering and neuroses don't end just because you awaken to presence. You still go through them, but with the awareness that you don't have to identify with them. There's no one in here driving this reality. It proceeds of its own accord, like a never ending ticker tape stretching on into the horizon. Grasp or don't grasp. Take action or do nothing. It proceeds anyway. There's no escape and nowhere to go to. It's all happening right here and you are in perpetual free fall through it. There are no proscriptions for how this should work. Whatever's happening is what's happening.

 

So the bad news is that you're falling forever. The good news is that there's no bottom. And even better is that you're not falling alone.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Orion

[dwai]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that suffering and neuroses don't end just because you awaken to presence. You still go through them, but with the awareness that you don't have to identify with them. There's no one in here driving this reality. It proceeds of its own accord, like a never ending ticker tape stretching on into the horizon. Grasp or don't grasp. Take action or do nothing. It proceeds anyway. There's no escape and nowhere to go to. It's all happening right here and you are in perpetual free fall through it. There are no proscriptions for how this should work. Whatever's happening is what's happening.

 

So the bad news is that you're falling forever. The good news is that there's no bottom. And even better is that you're not falling alone.

I agree with you

[Spotless]

Suffering is past and future - it ends with Awakening.

 

It is not now a choice of identifying with life's suferable encounters or not - suffering is being IN the illusion which consists of past and future - NOW is not a source of suffering - unless held by past or future.

 

One may stub a toe and feel pain but there is not torment - no lamenting of "why me?" no fear of "oh my god, what now?!".

 

If it is a choice - one is not Awakened - one is working with mindfulness perhaps or playing in the fields of waking and sleeping.

 

In Awakeness - Presence - Divine Essence - one is not in the illusion (even when a residual is enlivened). If it nears choice it is nearing reversal to illusion and the illusioned life again - the noise and edgyness are palatable.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Spotless

[allinone]

Spotless you are zero if it comes to alchemy. Because once you decide to begin with alchemy you start with learning.

[allinone]

Suffering is past and future - it ends with Awakening.

 

It is not now a choice of identifying with life's suferable encounters or not - suffering is being IN the illusion which consists of past and future - NOW is not a source of suffering - unless held by past or future.

 

One may stub a toe and feel pain but there is not torment - no lamenting of "why me?" no fear of "oh my god, what now?!".

 

If it is a choice - one is not Awakened - one is working with mindfulness perhaps or playing in the fields of waking and sleeping.

 

In Awakeness - Presence - Divine Essence - one is not in the illusion (even when a residual is enlivened). If it nears choice it is nearing reversal to illusion and the illusioned life again - the noise and edgyness are palatable.

 

After the fact stuff, where the self is in. It is painful to read if you don't share the same view with the protagonist and pleasant if you do.

[allinone]

This is a question for those who have awakened.

 

Even as the sakshi bhav (witness state) is constantly present, old habits/tendencies associated with the body-mind rise. What should we do about that? Let them play out and dissolve on their own? Or forcibly suppress them? Sometimes just being aware of these habits don’t dissolve them and suppressing makes them re-surface after wards with greater intensity. 

 

Though I do notice that these tendencies/habits tend to rise far less frequently as time progresses, they still do. And sometimes they pack a wallop! And they have the power to suck you back into the ego-based identity (even for a brief period of time). 

 

Please share your thoughts.

 

you going wrong direction to being awakened. The more awakened you are the more painful everything comes, you will have many times more frequently things arise, craving rises shortly after disappearing.

[Jeff]

Suffering is past and future - it ends with Awakening.

It is not now a choice of identifying with life's suferable encounters or not - suffering is being IN the illusion which consists of past and future - NOW is not a source of suffering - unless held by past or future.

One may stub a toe and feel pain but there is not torment - no lamenting of "why me?" no fear of "oh my god, what now?!".

If it is a choice - one is not Awakened - one is working with mindfulness perhaps or playing in the fields of waking and sleeping.

In Awakeness - Presence - Divine Essence - one is not in the illusion (even when a residual is enlivened). If it nears choice it is nearing reversal to illusion and the illusioned life again - the noise and edgyness are palatable.

I like this as a working definition for "awakened". When one is in the NOW, and no suffering with worrying about the past or projecting fears to the future. Or no "why me?" when stubbing a toe. Can the group agree with this concept as a working definition?

 

I think where there may be difference is in what happens as that awakening is more fully realized. Some see it as the loss of any choice (God takes over and you never really existed), while others see it at infinite freedom (of choice to respond because not driven by those fears).

[silent thunder]

The latest responses keep reminding me of the old saying.
"the Sage is in the world, but not of it."  It's why I love spotless' name on the forum here.... 

it is a reminder that no matter what occurs, we are untouchable, untaintable, spotless

 

while there may be discomfort, unpleasantness, or even pain...

that does not imply or require that one must also be suffering.

 

edit:  spelling... always with the spelling.

Edited April 11, 2017 by silent thunder

[steve]

I like this as a working definition for "awakened". When one is in the NOW, and no suffering with worrying about the past or projecting fears to the future. Or no "why me?" when stubbing a toe. Can the group agree with this concept as a working definition?

 

 

I would argue that the "...one..." in your definition must be removed. When that one is no longer the subject, there remains only unbounded presence of pure knowing-ness and it's display.

 

I like to think in terms of the three characteristics of space, awareness, and warmth but would not call it a definition, more a practice, for indefinite is one of its characteristics.

[Jeff]

I would argue that the "...one..." in your definition must be removed. When that one is no longer the subject, there remains only unbounded presence of pure knowing-ness and it's display.

I like to think in terms of the three characteristics of space, awareness, and warmth but would not call it a definition, more a practice, for indefinite is one of its characteristics.

Ok. With your additional requirements, sounds like that is a "no" to a baseline definition of awakening that Spotless provided.

 

Could you define what you mean by things in your definition with terms like "pure knowing-ness" and what would be "it's display"?

 

And with your three components of space, awareness and warmth are you effectively defining "Rigpa"?

 

Thanks.

[dwai]

I would argue that the "...one..." in your definition must be removed. When that one is no longer the subject, there remains only unbounded presence of pure knowing-ness and it's display.

 

I like to think in terms of the three characteristics of space, awareness, and warmth but would not call it a definition, more a practice, for indefinite is one of its characteristics.

I'd say "existence, awareness and bliss" (where existence and awareness mutually validate each other) and bliss is a lack of pleasure or pain (attachemdnt to).

 

The classical Vedic description of "that" is precisely that - satchidanda.

[steve]

Ok. With your additional requirements, sounds like that is a "no" to a baseline definition of awakening that Spotless provided.

 

Could you define what you mean by things in your definition with terms like "pure knowing-ness" and what would be "it's display"?

 

And with your three components of space, awareness and warmth are you effectively defining "Rigpa"?

 

Thanks.

 

I will respectfully decline to define but I'll do my best to describe.

 

I'm using Pure to describe the clear, unstained, unbiased aspect (emptiness/space) of the awakened experience.

Knowing-ness refers to Rigpa which I think is best translated into English as Knowing or Knowledge (some use presence or awareness).

It's Display refers to the infinite potential that lies within that inseparability of space and awareness - the potential for all manifestation, everything that is seen, heard, felt, accomplished, experienced... (dynamic energy, warmth, or bliss are terms often used).

 

We can also think in terms of Dharmakaya (empty aspect), Sambhogakaya (knowing aspect), and Nirmanakaya (manifestation aspect). 

 

I do not intend to define Rigpa as space, awareness, and warmth.

I'm referring to the Nature (or Essence) of Mind (Reality), of which Rigpa is most closely related to the awareness aspect.

I think there are some sources and individuals that use Rigpa and the Nature of Mind interchangeably, for my own clarity I generally don't.

 

I hope we can avoid getting too bogged down in terminology here. It's good to be on the same page but the terminology can be as much of a distraction as a support if we're not careful. As mentioned earlier, when I use the words space, awareness, and warmth, I am referring more to an experiential guide to practice. To try and grasp the nature of mind or rigpa intellectually is a dead end, at least for me. To those engaged with a sutric practice, it is a demanding exercise. To rest comfortably and settle into a feeling of inner spaciousness, clear presence, and experience the warmth, the joy and bliss, that arise from that place - that is what I'm referring to.

[steve]

I'd say "existence, awareness and bliss" (where existence and awareness mutually validate each other) and bliss is a lack of pleasure or pain (attachemdnt to).

 

The classical Vedic description of "that" is precisely that - satchidanda.

 

The Buddhists and Bönpos prefer to use 'empty' or 'space' rather than 'existence' because that is their view of the nature of 'existence' you refer to. One of the subtle but fundamental differences between Vedic and Madhyamika philosophy, I believe. It seems we are otherwise speaking a very similar language. 

[C T]

To rest comfortably and settle into a feeling of inner spaciousness, clear presence, and experience the warmth, the joy and bliss, that arise from that place...

this ^

[Spotless]

I will respectfully decline to define but I'll do my best to describe.

 

I'm using Pure to describe the clear, unstained, unbiased aspect (emptiness/space) of the awakened experience.

Knowing-ness refers to Rigpa which I think is best translated into English as Knowing or Knowledge (some use presence or awareness).

It's Display refers to the infinite potential that lies within that inseparability of space and awareness - the potential for all manifestation, everything that is seen, heard, felt, accomplished, experienced... (dynamic energy, warmth, or bliss are terms often used).

 

We can also think in terms of Dharmakaya (empty aspect), Sambhogakaya (knowing aspect), and Nirmanakaya (manifestation aspect). 

 

I do not intend to define Rigpa as space, awareness, and warmth.

I'm referring to the Nature (or Essence) of Mind (Reality), of which Rigpa is most closely related to the awareness aspect.

I think there are some sources and individuals that use Rigpa and the Nature of Mind interchangeably, for my own clarity I generally don't.

 

I hope we can avoid getting too bogged down in terminology here. It's good to be on the same page but the terminology can be as much of a distraction as a support if we're not careful. As mentioned earlier, when I use the words space, awareness, and warmth, I am referring more to an experiential guide to practice. To try and grasp the nature of mind or rigpa intellectually is a dead end, at least for me. To those engaged with a sutric practice, it is a demanding exercise. To rest comfortably and settle into a feeling of inner spaciousness, clear presence, and experience the warmth, the joy and bliss, that arise from that place - that is what I'm referring to.

I am a bit surprised you include "space".

Space and Time change considerably - to the point of limitless space and no time - distance-less space.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Spotless

[Jetsun]

Awakening is usually termed in the context of dreaming, so at night you may dream you are this or that person having a variety of experiences, but then you wake up and in a few seconds you realise that it wasn't real and was a mental creation.

 

Spiritual awakening is very similar in that you realise the person you thought you were is also a mental creation, so just as the person you create in the dream never wakes up you as a separate individual will also never wake up, rather you wake up from that to the realisation that you aren't that. Something else wakes up through you. So even if enlightenment happens it won't happen to you.

 

But just because you have woken up from being a human it doesn't mean no suffering, what is left of the psyche can react in a multitude of ways including fear and terror. For example Suzanne Seagal wrote about her experiences in her book "Collision With the Infinite" and she clearly had an awakening but spent most of the rest of her life in confusion and fear. I personally did a retreat last year where one Finnish woman woke up and spent the two weeks crying and was as white as a sheet the entire time.

 

There may be no suffering from the perspective of awake space but that doesn't mean that your entirety and all the different areas of your psyche shares this perspective.

 

There may be no past or future from the perspective of awake space but all your survival conditioning passed down both genetically and karmically over hundreds of years/lifetimes isn't going to give up its grip so easily.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Jetsun

[Bindi]

There's also the issue (for me) of what awakening is actually for apart from an individual not directly feeling pain.

 

Swamij in the quote below uses many of the concepts that have been referred to here already, but he adds one sentence which is not such a focal point generally - 'in relation to the service of other beings'. Similar to compassion, but an engaged and 'embodied' compassion. Maybe it's just his take on it, but I think he's pretty well nailed it.

 

 

[An enlightened yogi is] purely spontaneous, with no actions whatsoever being motivated by the inner drives of samskaras and karma. One hundred percent of actions are from the here-and-now response to the needs of the moment, in relation to the service of other beings. This is easy, as there is no I and no other; it is all a constant flow of pure, undivided consciousness (purusha), that only seems to play, here, there, and everywhere.

http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras-43234.htm