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dawei

[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 2

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I'm curious why you chose to say Heaven is beyond duality instead of saying the Sage is beyond duality?

 

I'm collating my review of posts and see two parts to the chapter:  

1. Dualism explained

2. Wu Wei explained

 

I would suggest that the latter is non-duality explained.

 

Comments welcomed :)

Because all "under heaven" see all of the duality explained in the chapter. Heaven is beyond (or sees through) duality. A sage is one who moves between heaven and earth.

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Because all "under heaven" see all of the duality explained in the chapter. Heaven is beyond (or sees through) duality. A sage is one who moves between heaven and earth.

 

Yes, so the first two characters of the text drove your point :)  

 

Tian Xia is 'all under heaven'.   I don't want to get into it here but I think if others want to look into this very important phrase, not that I'm saying Jeff or I agree with how some others might interpret that but it is an important phrase.   but here are some links:

 

https://www.ou.edu/uschina/texts/Zhao.2006.SI.Tianxia.pdf

 

https://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/download/hau2.1.015/113

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Remember Lao Tzu is a great Immortal and that when he was last mortal when he wrote down his teachings he was a incarnate Immortal. He had already in his heart the Dao before anyone taught him anything. 

 

How is it that LZ had Dao in his heart before anyone taught him?  

 

There is folklore that his mother taught him the Way.  Is this correct or who was his teacher in your tradition?

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How is it that LZ had Dao in his heart before anyone taught him?

Some are born to it.

 

warm regards (-:

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How is it that LZ had Dao in his heart before anyone taught him?  

 

If Dao is at our core then none are alien to it. Right? uncarved block etc.

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If Dao is at our core then none are alien to it. Right? uncarved block etc.

 

I agree but wanted to know why make a note about LZ... could of said 'we all have Dao in our heart'...

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I agree but wanted to know why make a note about LZ... could of said 'we all have Dao in our heart'...

Ok, fair, ,My answer wouldve then been ,, 'I figure whoever put the words that way saw Dao ,more as an uncommonly-inspired practice' (the recognition of which Does go against the 'standard' world view.) 

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Summary, based on comments:

 

Meaning of Chapter 2:

 

1. Duality vs Non-Duality

The Manifest - the physical world of Dualities.  

The Mystery - the world of non-Dualities. 

 

2. All Under Heaven vs Heaven

All under Heaven (the world) is dualistic while Heaven is beyond duality 

The Sage lives naturally, beyond the ebb and flow of desires

While cause and effect creates happenings in life

The key is to just live and not get attached to any of it.

 

3. Cultivation

While Ch 1 described two states of cultivation, Ch 2 described the way to cultivate

The Way of cultivation is to let everything grow by itself without methods or any target

 

4. Dao

The Dao has no boundaries, cultural, perspective or otherwise, it is the same in all cultures and can be found in all cultures. 

Traditional Daoism is of the feminine, most perspectives are of the masculine, Lao Tzu addresses the world and uses the masculine, (he) so that his words are taken seriously by others who are less understanding. So his words are valued even though they are of the feminine. 

Remember Lao Tzu is a great Immortal and that when he was last mortal when he wrote down his teachings he was a incarnate Immortal.   He had already in his heart the Dao before anyone taught him anything. 

 

5. Wu Wei

Wu Wei is an active act to take no action or interference in the way all things go together. 

It does not mean that one never acts, it means that when one is wise enough to see the ten thousand things rise, integrate and fall naturally, then there is no need to act. 

A Sage of course does have to act when things are not in balance and the processes are being lost

In modern time we have to act a lot of the time, because as a species we are setting up so many imbalances because people don't know the way

The processes which are the way are ever evolving and reproducing; working with the way, if it is natural, 

requires no acknowledgement even though this work sustains and its processes go on and on.

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Lao Tzu was a great Immortal before he incarnated 2,500 years ago. Now such a person with the spirit of an Immortal in a mortal body will already have 'Dao in their heart'. Their life would lead them to the Dao and its teachings and once more they will become realized. As to his mother teaching him, sure she would have known something about the Dao as it was prominent in the society he lived in but as I once said he told me as a young man he sought a teacher and there he was taught and all that he had in his heart was realised.

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I agree with explanations above. When something is manifested, then the opposite is born, i.e. beauty vs ugliness, kind vs evil, virtue vs vice, etc. Therefore, chapter 2 compares a physical realm of duality vs pre-heaven world of Tao.

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I agree with explanations above. When something is manifested, then the opposite is born, i.e. beauty vs ugliness, kind vs evil, virtue vs vice, etc. Therefore, chapter 2 compares a physical realm of duality vs pre-heaven world of Tao.

 

Is the manifest world a duality to pre-heaven world of Dao ?     

 

If yes, then a duality emerged from pre-heaven non-duality and your idea is not quite all encompassing.

 

If no, then what is their relationship and how did the manifest arise ?

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Yes, Chapter 2 builds on Chapter 1.  The Manifest - the physical world of Dualities.  The Mystery - the world of non-Dualities.  And yes, Wu Wei is found in the Mystery, not the Manifest.

In the Chinese version the title of this chapter is observing its manifestations. Could you tell me how do you find wu wei in the mystery? Is it the mystery on chapter 1 miao or xuan?

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In the Chinese version the title of this chapter is observing its manifestations. Could you tell me how do you find wu wei in the mystery? Is it the mystery on chapter 1 miao or xuan?

 

Hi Mig,

 

Very excellent question.  Please hold in your thoughts that I make no claim of "knowing" anything.  What I have are my opinions and understandings based mostly on my personal experiences, sometimes supported by what others have said.

 

The first time I experienced "wu wei" was in 1970 and this was 15 years before I started reading Taoist texts.  I point this out in order to make the point that the experience is a natural thing, not necessarily something attained through intentional effort.

 

I can't really say that "we find wu wei" but I prefer to think of it as "wu wei" finding us.  That is, we have allowed space for it to express itself.

 

It is my understanding that, unless it arises naturally as in my experience above, we need to divorce our mind from our body.  This is figurative, not literal.  That is, our mind merges with Mystery and it observes the Manifest, our body being part of that Manifest.

 

In my opinion, the best way to prepare one's self for such a merging is through meditation.  There are many forms of meditation and each individual should find the form that works best for them.  My preferred is "empty-minded meditation.

 

And this is, IMO, where the importance of "awareness" comes into play.  While in the state of "wu wei" our mind is still aware of the Manifest while experiencing the Mystery.  And this is one of the reasons why I speak against the use of alcohol and mind-altering drugs.  Awareness is essential.

 

And remember, the Mystery is not something to be understood or known.  It is something experienced (without words).

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Posted (edited)
On 29/01/2017 at 8:10 PM, dawei said:
DC. Lau
 
The whole world recognizes the beautiful as the beautiful, yet this is only the ugly; 
the whole world recognizes the good as the good, yet this is only the bad.
Thus Something and Nothing produce each other; 
The difficult and the easy complement each other; 
The long and the short off-set each other; 
The high and the low incline towards each other; 
Note and sound harmonize with each other; 
Before and after follow each other.
Therefore the sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action and practises the teaching that uses no words.
The myriad creatures rise from it yet it claims no authority; 
It gives them life yet claims no possession; 
It benefits them yet exacts no gratitude; 
It accomplishes its task yet lays claim to no merit.
It is because it lays claim to no merit 
That its merit never deserts it. 
 
 

 

The first part seems to talk about the subjectivity of people, and how something named "beautiful" comes out of something less so. The ups and downs of life are all part of the same polar scale.

 

D.C Lau's notes say that "Before and after follow each other" is a "strange" thing to say, and suggests that it probably refers to a ring. So, its abstract meaning would be like the cycle of life, seasons and so forth.

 

So the sage is still, imitating Dao "It"

 

And "It" is humble. "It" has provided all we need, and there is no need for thanks. "It" just does. "It" just doesn't do.

Edited by Rara
I forgot the yin to my yang.

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6 hours ago, Rara said:

D.C Lau's notes say that "Before and after follow each other" is a "strange" thing to say, and suggests that it probably refers to a ring. So, its abstract meaning would be like the cycle of life, seasons and so forth.

 

Not sure why... In a military sense, and this was Warring times... the back of the army follows the front into battle; the front follows the back in retreat.

 

 But all of these examples are two nodes of a spectrum, which is to say they are part of a singular part working in harmony.   Like ch. 1, words divide up the meaning but doesn't mean they are really two separate and independent parts. 

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