effilang

Xiao Yao Pai & Xiantian Dao Yin Shu - [OFFICIAL THREAD]

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It's natural that people always search for better - it's called "optimization" in biology, you can not help it as every human is influenced by this part of aspect of the brain. Same goes for people in spiritual schools. I can tell you that my friend which under longmenpai master (not wang liping) probably would be taking initiation in XYP if they let him do ii and find him right person to do so. (I study under longmenpai teacher too and the results are pretty awesome but I'm not official student as I wanted only some healing methods and to replenish ming/yuanjing/yuanqi as I practice a lot of qigong and regular meditation).

 

So yes those students want to have better results which they see (like me) Xiao Ya Pai can bring to them/me but not in greedy manner but you put yourself into practice - in that sense.

 

Thanks SeekerOfHealing, your answer speaks for itself, so i'll leave it there and respect Effilang's wish to keep this thread on topic. 

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I'd like to share a new testimonial from one of this month's UK initiated:

TESTIMONIAL 34:

The Initiation itself was very quick, I was a little nervous, but otherwise comfortable.

Beforehand my main concern was the question of whether every person was suitable for initiatioh; was I good enough?

I have experienced movements in other practices, so when the time came, I was confident there would be some movement. The movement however, was quite subtle and I questioned it, then I noticed my lower back was painful, I figured it was bad posture or an energy blockage being cleared.

I began to sit up straighter and that was more comfortable.

Later on at the hotel I would have more movements and feel very tired after this. Also I noticed that practicising on a full stomach was undesirable or rather, unpleasant.

Returning home and continuing practice, the things that I have noticed so far:

I have been more comfortable in myself.

I feel less abused by others energies, also more aware of this.

I feel more self contained and self driven, productive.

I'm starting to feel bouts of joy, reminding me of childhood.

Also I am finding less time for time wasting people and more easily extricating them from my life.

During practice I am experiencing a lot of head and postural movements, and also weeping eyes, not in a sense of crying or emotional feelings, perhaps more in a sense of subconscious release of emotions.This leading to more balance and tranquillity.

I hope this testimonial helps others take that step they have been considering.

So far this is the most rewarding course/initiation I have experienced and I have only just begun working with it.

Will D.

Edited by effilang

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Thanks SeekerOfHealing, your answer speaks for itself, so i'll leave it there and respect Effilang's wish to keep this thread on topic.

 

Thank you for understanding.

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I just received a practice video from one of the recently initiated UK Dao Yu, Lukasz.
He has been practising for around 10 days now since he was initiated and is still getting used to the whole idea of HFS moving him.

I thought I'd accompany his video with a few pictures from his initiation and give a little back story.

For starters, Lukasz is an atheist. I met him a little less than two years ago and since then we have become good friends. The more I spoke to him the more he earned my respect, and despite our friendship, mutual interests and values, we were two worlds apart, because my every day reality consisted of "things" he could only imagine. Things that have the power to change a person's life forever.

His logical mind and his personal values made him a perfect candidate for Dao Ying (initiation), so one day I shared my ideas with him and challenged him to verify it before making up his mind.

Fast forward around one year and he was in London, true to his word, ready to come and investigate. It wasn't that he believed in any of it, but I had earned his respect and apart from my proclamations of fantastical spiritual experiences, I otherwise appeared to him as a completely logical and grounded person. He had seen me debate against religion on numerous occasions and knew my standpoints against faith, blind beliefs, dogma, and worship, and it made him more comfortable to look deeper into my claims.

I wasn't one of those "crazy religious guys", yet somehow he still couldn't reconcile the person he knew me to be with all the "spiritual" stuff. Logic and Spirituality, how can they exist together?

Despite his doubts, he made the choice to come and see if I was bullshitting him : )
Maybe I was?

"Come to the initiation and find out for yourself" - I told him. "Don't believe me."

On the day of the event his scepticism rose to an all time high.
I welcomed it and told him to ask me anything he wishes.

When it was time to prepare for the initiation, he confessed that he was not sure yet and would prefer to stand back and watch others get initiated first. I told him, that's no problem : )

He stood back and waited patiently as we began to prepare for the initiation.

By the time we were done 10 minutes later, the new Dao Yu were already being physically moved by their newly assigned HFS, while others had more profound subtle energy and spirit level experiences. Some could already see their HFS as soon as the initiation started and others were communicating freely with their new teacher.

By the end of the initiation, the data he came to receive was there, albeit lacking of any substantial conclusion, because it still remained shy of the most important component of this investigation, his own direct personal full body experience. Observation is simply not proof enough. To truly know the truth about Xiantian Dao Yin Shu, HFS must move your body, your energy, your mind, your spirit, appear before you or communicate directly with you.

We ended the day, on a positive note and he didn't say too much about it, only saying that he needed to think about it some more, but eventually the questions came.

Lucky for him we were staying in the same hotel, so he had the opportunity to ask me questions all through the evening and I obliged.

He told me, that he wasn't sure that he's ready to be initiated yet and said he thinks he needs more time to do research. I felt him slipping away and retreating into uncertainty, but as his friend I didn't want him to miss the opportunity, knowing how much potential he had and how much progress he could make in a year of practice, before the next initiation.

I explained to him that even if he were to go away now and come back a year later with all the research in the world completed and done, he would find himself in exactly the same state and situation he was currently in. Intellectualising, philosophising and theorising about something is not really it. Just like a book which describes the taste of sugar isn't sugar itself, but a mere intellectual representation. We must put the sugar in our mouth and taste it before it can be understood and experienced.

Our teacher Laozi said, Dao Ke Dao Fei Chang Dao (道可道, 非常道)
The same applies to initiation. We have to jump from "philosophy" to "practice" to get results, otherwise all we have is conjecture; an instrument of ignorance.

No matter how much people debate, ask me questions, read up on and research; and travel to uncover hidden knowledge, the truth is that there is no way to verify if XTDYS is genuine or not, unless you experience it directly, so whether you research for 5, 10 or 20 years, the decision is always the same at the end of the day.

It always boils down to the same thing.
Try it and know or walk away and don't.
Either way is ok. It doesn't matter to us.
But there's really no in-between.

If you find something in text, or theory that suddenly convinces you to that you need to be initiated, then ultimately you were your own barrier in the first place, because the truth of our art is not in text or theory.

The oldest and strongest human emotion is fear,
and the oldest and strongest type of fear, is the fear of the unknown

If it was anyone else other than a friend, like Lukasz, I would have simply told the person, no worries see you in the future, and let him go on his way - frankly, just so I could save myself the philosophical debates, but I really wanted Lukasz to know what I knew and experience life and reality the way I did. So I gave him more of my time in discussion to try and clear his mind of doubts.

The future is difficult to predict, because it can branch into many possibilities, but I thought I'd let him know that he was very close, and confided in him that his HFS was already waiting for him.

I told him, tomorrow is the last day, so sleep on it and try to decide, it is an important decision : )

On the next day, his mind had found him yet something else to sway him.
I saw everyone moving he said, but now I want to hear them speak about their movement.

I said, fine. Do that : )

I had told the new Dao Yu before they left the day before to have some food, take a shower, relax and practice one time on their own before they go to bed. The mind is a little less active then and it's easier to connect after the initiation, because people can be anxious during and the adrenaline can stiffen their joints and muscles considerably.

As the day progressed, they all started to share their experiences of their first practice outside of the initiation. What he heard being described, was not what he expected. Deep down inside, I could tell he wanted to hear pronouncements of disappointment, but every following description broke down his prejudice more and more, until there was no way to go. He has seen it, he had heard it, all that was left now was to feel it for himself. His doubt was beset on all sides by the walls of a reality which was gradually beginning to seem less and less absurd to accept.

A few hours passed, through which I answered more of his questions and I felt him get more and more excited about the prospects of becoming initiated. After a short while, he came up to me and said, Ok, lets do it.

I spoke with the masters and notified them that he had made his decision and that we would need to have another initiation after everyone had left.

After I had thanked everyone for coming and the hall began to empty out, I walked up to the back of the room where Lukasz was having a conversation with a friend of mine. I leaned in and asked him one last question, one last time:

"Blue pill or Red pill?" - :P

Red it was...

Lukasz preparing to be registered in the heavenly register and connected to Hu Fa Shen.
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My Master making the request to Tai Shang to accept Lukasz into Xiao Yao Pai as his student.
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The activation of the Yuan Shen
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The connection
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His Hu Fa Shen connects and his first movement begins
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Full initial physical movement by HFS; in his case a static pose.
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His HFS makes him hold the posture for a while.
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At this point me and my master are snickering away. Me behind the camera and him while completing the initiation.

His reactions when we were done?
Absolute... fucking.... shock.

In about the time it took to make popcorn, his whole belief system was flipped 180 degrees.

All he could say for the next 5 minutes, was "holy shit" and "fuck" "something actually moved me", followed by apologies to excuse his language in front of the masters, followed by more "shit" and "fuck" - hahaha, we were all laughing : )

Either way. I'm really proud of him for finding the the bravery it required and overcoming his fears. I had never seen him that anxious and I know he dug deep to push through. Since then he has been practising regularly every day and is always texting me about new and amazing experiences.

I gave him a few tips about how to communicate with HFS and now he already knows his Hu Fa Shen's name.

As you can see in Lukasz's video compared to mine, our movements are very different.
Hu Fa Shen always works on us based on our individual conditions.

The way HFS moves our body corresponds to the condition that is being treated.
In my movie however no condition was being treated, I had long since stopped moving and progressed to Qigong and Jing Zuo by the time I made that movie. I specifically had to ask Hu Fa Shen to guide me in something fancy as I was making it for people to see, hence the fancy lighting and presentation.

After Lukasz's body has been refined adequately, HFS will progress to guided Xiantian Qigong, where he will control his breath and guide his Qi, and later Xiantian Jing Zuo where Hu Fa Shen will guide his awareness from Taiji and into Wuji.

I've got plenty more pictures to show of all the others that were initiated, but I haven't had the chance yet to sit down and post produce everything. I'll share them with you when I have.

Best wishes and again thank you for making a practice video to share with everyone.
 

His first basic practice video. Day 10. Xiantian Shen Gong.

Nothing fancy, but its not about how it looks, but how it affects the body and energy. Plus he's a beginner : )


Edited by effilang
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There is any in the west who achieved level to initiate people beside Grandmaster? 

 

At this time only our GM is at Dao Shi level.

There are however several Dao Zun to whom he has delegated the authority of initiation on his behalf.

 

We are all brothers and sister in the Dao.

While it is courteous to show respect to our GM, Hu Fa Shen and our Seniors, we have no obligation to each other.

 

There are no strings attached in "Xiao Yao" Pai, hence our schools name : )

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It appears that there is an ongoing campaign to slander our school taking place on the forum by a member whom despite his constant defamation, is still unable to provide any tangible and verifiable proof of his claims against us.

 

Having said that, I just want to make a point clear that has been represented erroneously and no doubt done so on purpose with the aim of misinforming people about our tradition and manipulating the truth to fit their own narratives.

 

Information was purposefully manipulated by FlowingHands, so that it would fit with his false narrative of Xiao Yao Pai originating or coming out of China after the Mao era and was thus labelling us a "half-cooked" school.

 

It is embarrassing to see that unable to substantiate any of his former speculations and claims against our school, he would have to stoop so low as to manipulating information to make a point.

 

This is explicit libel and I urge the administration to take note of this.

 

The claim is this: 

 

post-45212-0-48565000-1479409688_thumb.jpg

 

"...arts that have emerged from China including the Tai Shang Men sect or Xiao Yao Pai, who according to their site did not emerge from China until the 1990's"

 

- This is demonstrably false, and furthermore baseless and vitriolic in nature.

 

To make it clear: our Grandmaster, Li Shang Hu, moved to Indonesia in 1938 around the age of 7.

 

By the early 1970s, he was established and working as an acupuncturist and shopkeeper when he was granted permission by Tai Shang to bring our school out of seclusion and begin to share Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu with the world. This is when we first opened our doors and officially became a public school, abandoning our traditional closed-door spiritual ethos.

 

Today we have nearly 20 temples established in Indonesia, with the first being founded in 1996.

 

Xiao Yao Pai is well known amongst the Daoist clans in China and we have on numerous occasions been invited to Daoist temples to reveal and demonstrate to the priests and abbots our claim of the inheritance of the ancient art. We currently even have initiated priests in Tian Hou Gong in Nanjing, China; who have inherited our school's art; Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu, and this is not the only temple who has inherited XTDYS... but that's a topic a little too sensitive for discussion.

 

By the early 90s our Shifu had already conducted 100s of initiations under the authority of the Celestial head of our school; Tai Shang Lao Jun.

 

Here is a picture of one such event:

 

post-45212-0-76960500-1479324602_thumb.jpg

 

In addition to all this, as I've said before, If you're in search of legitimation, which has no value to us as a school and our teachings, you can also visit Bai Yun Guan (White Cloud Temple) in Beijing and speak to an official about the document containing the list of China's Taoist clans. As affirmed by the Chinese Daoist Association, you will find Xiao Yao Pai in 33rd place on the list.

 

You can also speak to Zhengyi about us or Wudang Pai in China. They all know us.

 

Additionally, since day one, we have always offered a method to test and verify our claim and this is through initiation. You can take Lukasz's example in post #154.

 

Do we claim that we are disciples and representatives of Tai Shang? - Yes.

Can we prove it? - Yes.

Can you come and prove it yourself if you want to be sure personally? - Yes.

 

I haven't heard as much offered in terms of backing up their claims from all those that have been trying to defame us, and the truth is that I'm quite frankly not interested in inter-school squabbles, so I won't demand it from anyone. To each their own.

 

If someone would like to bring up charges against us and our claims, they will need to back them up with substantial evidence, not mere speculation - just like we back up ours through initiation. Manipulating and introducing information to suit their needs so they can substantiate their claims is a disgusting practice. Further more our initiated students testimonials also very clearly speak for themselves...

 

Cheers : )

Edited by effilang
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The recognition also comes from Long Men Pai, Wu Liu Pai (that why it's weird for me that they attack XYP) and Wudang traditions all my friends related to those traditions recognize XYP as legit school.

 

The question is here not about legitimacy I think but how do we measure that this school is The Way to attain Dao - this we can not know really, we can only deduce on our feeling related towards something, but nobody will really know if it's really "this" unless they come to the level of practice to say that.

 

 

there is certain trick to use to see the spirit if they really comes in what form etc. but those are related to maoshan so I will not post exact things here. (especially if you are weak in spirit and heart)

Edited by SeekerOfHealing
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@SeekerOfHealing

 

There are plenty of ways to "attain the Dao" as it were, we are just one.

Everyone can pick where they go, which one to test and which one to practice : )

 

As always for those that want to test it, we offer a way to back up our claims.

 

Our ability to actually prove that we can connect people to the Daoist Xian Shen and Tian Shen in our Celestial branch is the primary reason why we don't focus on "talking" in our school, but prefer to get to the "walking", because there is actually a lot of walking to do and not enough time to spend on fruitless philosophy and intellectual gymnastics.

 

Many other schools only have the option of "talking", because they cannot offer any proof, so when you ask them for proof, they immediately begin evasive manoeuvres like an F-16, deploy counter measures and pretend the question wasn't asked, or even less credibly, they absolve themselves of any responsibility and offer you to refer to the texts of history, so you can read about someones experiences who died a couple of thousand years ago, which can neither be confirmed nor disproven.

 

I'm always reminded of this meeting of Kongfuzi and Laozi in times like this:

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Confucius visited Laozi dressed in formal elaborate robes to discuss matters of ceremonial etiquette and tried to explain his belief that new knowledge must be based upon old knowledge...but was interrupted by the old master:

 

Laozi: "The men of whom you speak are long since dead and their bones are turned to ashes in their graves."

 

Laozi: "Put away your polite airs and your vain display of fine robes. The wise man does not display his treasures to those he does not know. And he cannot learn justice from the Ancients."

 

Confucius: "Why not?"

 

Laozi replied, "The swan does not need to bathe daily to remain white." then abruptly ended the meeting.

 

Confucius later said onto his disciples: "I know that birds can fly and fish can swim and beasts can run. Snares can be set for things that run, nets for those that swim and arrows for whatever flies. But who knows how Dragons ride the wind and cloud up into the sky. Today I saw Laozi. What a Dragon!'"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Despite all this, I've never attacked anyone's school and have no interest to and I doubt I ever will.

 

I think when one is confident in their practice and their way, the claims and counter-claims of another school will do little to phase them.

 

I for one would certainly never create a thread to try and defame another's tradition with false information, but again, to each their own - and to be frank for me it's actually ok. As they say, the stars shine bright because of the darkness.

 

I prefer to focus on helping others to continue getting positive results and transforming their lives. At the end of the day that's what matters, but again, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I'm also entitled to kick people out of my house when they barge in and start to attack me.  :closedeyes:

Edited by effilang
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@Seeker

 

Maybe if you have some time we can do a small long distance "experiment". It is at the discretion of Tai Shang. You can add me on facebook if you like: xuan daoji or we can try to do it in the Dao Bums chat, if that is allowed.

 

Again, no promises as this is not at my discretion, but I do have the spiritual authority to officially make the request to Tai Shang to offer you a form of "proof" prior to initiation when there is a full fledged connection and assignment to a Hu Fa Shen.

 

Of course this is not an initiation as I do not have authority to do so at this time, but by Tai Shang's grace he may manifest for you if he deems it appropriate   :closedeyes:

 

I've already done one of these with a few members here.

Edited by effilang
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There is some way to recognition what type of initiation I could have or force which moves me similar ways to your school? I do not need proofs as I can see and I can tell that's this school is legit.

 

The most important thing is that this school do not force you or have rules for you to become spiritual freak. I like being normal, eating my meat and living life like regular person (in middle way of course), like working no need to worry to sit in cave and detach from society - but that's maybe me because I can handle it well without much fuss I also like chan/zen approach to this also that true chan/zen is in society no in cave like Hakuin said. In Wu Liu Pai to attain yang shen you need to have some people to pamper you in cave, bring you food and "face the wall". Looking at it from realistic view... most people will not attain it that way.

 

Effi I respect you too much to do such experiments and stuff like this. I'm not refuse but it's not matter of trust. Most of schools here are secretive and hiding from results and only look down on people - here is black on white everything clear and pristine. The only thing which gives me now second thoughts it's if my initiation can bother with Xiao Yao Pai initiation or they overlay each other.

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@Seeker

 

I appreciate that. Although I have to be frank, I don't personally entertain the notion of "belief" without direct experiential and empirical "proof"; something that you can observe happening in the present and that you can test for yourself, but I do understand from your previous posts that your confidence in us is borne from your due diligence and the research you've conducted to dispel your doubts - so as much as I can, I will try to respect that.

 

Forgive my presumption, but nevertheless, I would imagine that these proofs you experienced, while on some intellectual level are satisfying, still might have been be in the form of texts, manuscripts or someone else's opinions, which are not yet the moon itself, but only the finger pointing to it - so I hope that one day we will meet & you can have a definitive confirmation.

 

Thank you for your kind words.  ^_^

Edited by effilang
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The only thing which gives me now second thoughts it's if my initiation can bother with Xiao Yao Pai initiation or they overlay each other.

 

It's no problem at all, one of this months newly initiated actually shared this testimonial that you might be able to relate to. They were initiated through shaktipath and had been practising for over 12 years under a Buddhist school.

 

Their transition to Xiao Yao Pai has been flawless.

It doesn't matter what you practised previously, what your race is, what your sex is or what your religion is.

 

The only barrier is the mind. If it is polluted by belief systems, dogma and concepts and your cup is full and overflowing during initiation, then Hu Fa Shen may take more time to focus on your mind first. If you continue to practice regularly, you will feel all your prejudice washing away gently, and you will feel happier and less disturbed by people and their personal or public lives. You will essentially embody the "Xiao Yao" nature of our school. Everyone who practises Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu gradually becomes Xiao Yao and overflowing with childlike energy and joy. It is a very common reaction among Dao Yu.

 

Hu Fa Shen can see us on all levels, physical, subtle energy, mind and soul - so they always know how to approach our refinement for our highest benefit. Since we came out of seclusion and opened our doors to the public in the early 70s, we've initiated over 140,000 Dao Yu who all cultivate in the comfort of their homes under the guidance of their Hu Fa Shen; none has ever expressed a physical, energetic or spiritual incompatibility with the curriculum of our celestial branch as transmitted by Hu Fa Shen. The only incompatibility is that of the acquired mind; their conditioning and beliefs vs the non-discriminative and formless nature of our teachings.

 

If you feel that we are too open after you begin to practice and the formations of your mind cannot fit in with our way. You can face Tai Shang and make an official request to dissolve the apprenticeship. End of story.

 

We have no dogma, prohibitions or books to indoctrinate you into anyway of thinking. Our educational approach is formless to reflect the emptiness of Wuji.

 

If you form your mind and attach your awareness to that concept, it will be trapped inside Taiji (physical realm) and it cannot vibrate high enough to exit it and enter Wuji (non-physical realm) - because the mysterious gate of Wuji to which Hu Fa Shen gently guides our awareness, can only be passed when the awareness learns to disassociate itself from impermanent physical phenomena and begins to awaken and embraces its original formless state. Then it is like the awareness synchronises with the frequency of the mysterious pass and suddenly it appears. If we dwell here, the whole spirit will be enveloped with divine energy like a cocoon, which will of itself transform it into the radiant spirit of the immortal body; this is Yang Shen. It is a gradual process of refinement, so we must practice daily with Hu Fa Shen so he can guide and enhance our transformation : )

Edited by effilang
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I'd like to give a basic view from the Xiao Yao Pai perspective on how we "see" Daoist literature and how we separate it from Spiritual Daoism as opposed to strictly Philosophical and Religious practice.

 

Canon in Spiritual Daoism (Audio)

Edited by effilang
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I read complete tread about Xiao Yao Pai and in the past other treads related to it.

It is no doubt that XYP is interesting school and have interesting methods.

Also I have long personal conversations with western students of XYP and Indonesian members and Masters of XYP.After few years I have some picture of it and made my personal reaserch.There are some questions and contraversies which rise I think because of interpretations that are given from western students and their wish to present XYP in the best light and not maybe in clear picture.

I see that terminology used evolved by time to.

This is not criticism nor attack but my opinion with the best intetions with hope that we can find answers.

 

First I didnt find clues that XYP is part of Zheng Yi.On Long Hu Shan and Taiwan seat of Zheng Yi they dont know for XYP.Even grade structure and titles of XYP is not the same.What is more strange is that XYP dont have Shang Qing on altar but along Tai Shang Lao Jun they have Buddhist and Confucian statues so very sincretistic.

XYP have ritual in Temple and use of Talismans,Mantra and Hand seals and I hear have Spirit Lu registers which we can say is like Zheng Yi but I cant be sure on which level.

 

I also didnt find paper in Bai Yun Guan(seat of Quanzhen) which mention XYP,and I speak with Longmen Pai, and San Feng Pai and Wudang Pai on Wudang Shan who also dont know about XYP.

 

Tai Shang Men is clan and this means there are more Pai among them,but I didnt be able to find who are this Pai along XYP who belong to TSM?

 

XYP dont provide its history and lineage which is important.They say this is not important because they are Celestial lineage.Ahhh all are Celestial even Tian Shi Pai,Shang Qing Pai and Zhong Lu Pai....and many others who all give detailed lineage.XYP have Grand Master and other Master initiators so this are real people who initiate and this mean lineage,but they prefere to forgett this and say important is teacher and thus Hu Fa Shen who changed name because before it was called Fu Fak Shen.

Regarding Fu Fak Shen I dont belive it is Yang Shen,beacuse this means that there are some 140.000 + Xians who teach.Do you think it is posible?

I cant be sure that it is even Yin Shen,but others told me this can be case, which is more probable.I have my personal opinion and this is that on initiation Master activate Shen......precisly Yuan Shen of student and start to move Yuan Qi which we see as movements in Shen Gong.

Regarding lineage I think it is not ok to say it is not important,but on first page here to say that Hunag Di recived Dao Yin Shu from Guang Cheng Zi and founded first Temple of XYP......so this imply starting of genealogy.Do you see this contradictions?

I look in Daozhang and there is no single mention that Huang Di recived Dao Yin Shu from Guang Cheng Zi.Huang Di recived Wai Dan(laboratory alchemy) and pair sexual cultivation from various Masters.So this can be only oral legend about mythical figures in XYP only.

Dao Yin Shu and Yang Sheng are good and Nei Dan for sure have elements of it when it is formed in late VIII century,but Dao Yin Shu and Yang Sheng are Hout Tian and not Xian Tian.I know XYP now(but not before few years) mentioned that DYS is Xian Tian which for me is not true.How some can prove it?Just say it is Xian Tian have no value,vecause Yuan states cant be percepted at all.

Also Dao Yin Shu is just basic and start ,and cant be the  only practice nor it can made Yang Shen.I belive there must be other practices in higher degrees of XYP which can produce posibly Yang Shen.Is there such practice?

Problem is started when western students of XYP try to explain system with Nei Dan terms,but I know that XYP dont teach Nei Dan nor they replenish Jing and Qi.So how is to fuse Yin Shen with Yuan Jing and Yuan Qi precisly if you neglect to replenish it?

XYP work on Shen and from Shen go in natural wordly way to Qi and Jing,and we all know what classic say that true way is reversal and not wordly way of manifestation.Working on Shen only with no Yuan Qi to fuse you made just Yin Shen.Yang Shen is made from yang and this yang come from Ming Gong so again contradiction by western members interpretation and I belive Indonesian Masters dont claim that Dao Yin Shu is Xian Tian,nor that XYP work Nei Dan nor that it form Yang Shen.Maybe we can see original books of the school and  how they explain its doctrine?

 

Because XYP is manifested in the world in 1970,this time is interesting because in that time also we see Mo Pai who also have similar practices and it also dont show lineage nor history and it is on Indonesia to.What I find interesting is that such practices are more close to Tenaga Dalam(Tridaya) from Indonesia to which is added Daoist history of origin.In modern Indonesia mostly Muslims work Ilmu Khodan and Tenaga Dalam(Tridaya).

 

To better explain how it is similar here I am to post one ritual which I think is pretty similar to XYP initiation ceremony:

 

The Arts Of Soul Awakening (啟靈學)
 

This art of soul awakening is made popular by one of Taiwanese cult religious group in 80’s and perhaps still active today under the disguise of Tantric Buddhism. It parallels the practice of Japanese Dairindo, the Indonesian Tenaga Dalam, the Taoist auto martial arts and some of Chinese Chi Gong exercises; but with some spiritual elements introduced.

 

A word of caution

 

I won’t want to encourage practicing this exercise alone without guidance because without proper supervision, it is extremely easy to be intruded by spirits wandering about. For example, the spirit of a pig may possess the body of the person and the consequence will be pretty bad. Many people gone into troubles and hurt themselves, so be ware.

 

Theory of soul awakening

 

There are many theories concerning this art, the gist of it is that when we are alive; our soul are imprisoned within the body. Our soul could be awaken and released from our body through prayer and the help of higher spiritual forces. Otherwise, this would be quite impossible when a person is still alive.

 

Medias of soul awakening

 

Basically one’s soul can be awakened through 3 intermediaries:

 

·         Gods/goddesses

·         Spirits

·         Guru

 

Prerequisites

 

·         One must be healthy.

·         One must be kind hearted.

·         One must be knowledgeable: not follow things blindly.

·         One must not be too engrossed in supernatural things.

·         One must be persistent, calm, fair and doing thing step wise.

 

The method

 

It is not difficult to practise soul awakening method; one only has to find a clean and bright place. He/She will need to sit with his/her back straight on a chair and with both hands in clasping/prayer position.

 

After that one only needs to pray for his/her patron gods/goddesses to help. It is also advisable to do a silent rhythm chant such as “o-mi-to-fo” etc. continuously as if in meditation for an hour or so.

 

Some people will feel his/her hands shaking at first and gradually dance or perform martial arts stunts. Proponents say the patron spirits are guiding the practitioners but I would not want to comment.

 

The description sounds easy, but the duration varies actually according to a person to another: it make take few days to six months or even longer to get some reaction.

 

The benefits

 

Benefits to awaken one’s soul:

 

·         A healthier body and mind

·         Obtain psychic powers

·         Foundation for other higher practices

 

The down side

 

The purpose of soul awakening exercise is to achieve self mastery on one’s soul. However, if one’s mind is not strong and other external spirits took control, then he/she may become a spirit medium instead. Once this situation happens, this person will never be able to spirits from possessing his/her body.

 

The conclusion

 

Soul awakening is not suitable for the superstitious or the weak minded. The person must be able to distinguish what is right or vice versa. Without wisdom, any simple exercises can proof dangerous to the ignorance.
 
 
This is for now,I have some more opinions and highly interesting findings related to origin of the school its practice and why they belive it is superior to Nei Dan, which I am to post another time.
 
I hope that XYP members are not to get me wrong because I personaly dont have anything against XYP but contrary I am interested in their method which maybe I am to try some day.

 

All the best.

 

Ormus

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I'll try to keep it short.

 

I read complete tread about Xiao Yao Pai and in the past other treads related to it.

It is no doubt that XYP is interesting school and have interesting methods.

 

Maybe : )

 

Also I have long personal conversations with western students of XYP and Indonesian members and Masters of XYP.

 

Names?

 

After few years I have some picture of it and made my personal research.There are some questions and contraversies which rise I think because of interpretations that are given from western students and their wish to present XYP in the best light and not maybe in clear picture. 

 

It depends very much on who you speak to. Being initiated into XYP, doesn't make you an expert on XYP. That is why we have only a select few who represent us officially and internationally.

 

I see that terminology used evolved by time to.

 

The world keeps turning.

 

First I didn't find clues that XYP is part of Zheng Yi. On Long Hu Shan and Taiwan seat of Zheng Yi they dont know for XYP. 

 

It's strange then how they know us... If legitimation is your goal, then try a little harder.

 

I've mentioned this before about Zhengyi. We are now only affiliated with Zhengyi, that is to say we are not part of Zhengyi on paper anymore, because we chose to maintain our autonomy and govern how we spread our teachings, free from the overshadowing influence and long-term goals of particular national bodies. Many schools who were a part of Zhengyi before higher governing bodies got involved have opted for this status as a means to retain control over their traditions.

 

Even grade structure and titles of XYP is not the same.

 

Correct. Our is:

 

0: Dao Yu (道友)

Here HFS treats us like primary or elementary school students.

If we come across a steep ravine, HFS will help us by holding us up and making sure we don't get hurt.

 

1: Dao Shi (道仕)

Here HFS treats us like secondary school students.

If we come across a steep ravine, HFS will caution us, but we must carry ourselves and jump of our own accord if necessary

 

2: Dao Zhang (道张) - 2a, 2b, 2c.

Here HFS treats us like university students and we already have significant independence and maturity.

If we come across a steep ravine, we are expected to be able to see it ourselves and take the necessary actions.

At this level even if we fall, HFS just observes us and waits for us to take charge and get up.

 

3. Dao Zun (道尊)

Here HFS treats us like graduates from the university of life.

A this point, we are completely independent and on a level where we can work in union with HFS to help others on the most profound spiritual levels.

 

4. Dao Shi (道师)

Here we are granted the authority to represent Tai Shang Lao Jun as official representatives of the celestial realm. The Daoshi is authorised to delegate representation to those that reach Dao Zun level, so they can initiate others on their behalf.

 

What is more strange is that XYP dont have Shang Qing on altar but along Tai Shang Lao Jun they have Buddhist and Confucian statues so very sincretistic.

 

On our altars, that is if you even wish to have an altar, as it's not a necessity - we have: Tai Shang Lao Jun our Celestial head and his two Hufa; Er Lang Shen and Jiu Tian Xuan Nu : )

 

Confucianism didn't even exist during their time...

However, what you should also know is that a Buddhist is also a human and a spark of the Dao.

 

You better give Quanzhen a call about that and let them know how you really feel.

 

XYP have ritual in Temple and use of Talismans, Mantra and Hand seals and I hear have Spirit Lu registers which we can say is like Zheng Yi but I cant be sure on which level.

 

Doesn't matter to us really. We are not interested in legitimation by anyone or comparison. We stand on our own two feet.

 

I also didnt find paper in Bai Yun Guan (seat of Quanzhen) which mention XYP, and I speak with Longmen Pai, and San Feng Pai and Wudang Pai on Wudang Shan who also don't know about XYP.

 

Where is your proof?

 

Here's a picture of our Shifu initiating several priests in Quanzhen (Who you claim don't know us):

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/page-2#entry724348

 

As I say in that post, we have done the same for many other priests from many other of the main schools and yes, they all know us : )

 

I imagine that your claims of Longemen and Wudang are just as credible.......

Maybe you don't have the authority to get the answers you are asking for, or maybe they can "see" your heart : )

 

Tai Shang Men is clan and this means there are more Pai among them,but I didnt be able to find who are this Pai along XYP who belong to TSM? 

 

It's just Tai Shang Men Xiao Yao Pai.

Edited by effilang

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XYP dont provide its history and lineage which is important. They say this is not important because they are Celestial lineage. Ahhh all are Celestial even Tian Shi Pai, Shang Qing Pai and Zhong Lu Pai....and many others who all give detailed lineage.

 

Important to who?

How come our initiated students are practising, communicating with their Hu Fa Shen and making progress if it's important?

 

It's only important to those to whom it is important. To us it's not : )

We don't rely on the past, we rely on what we can do right now in the present and for that we have Xiantian Daoyin Shu and our initiation.

 

Those that cannot prove their art in the present, fall back on the words of the dead masters from the past to legitimate themselves...

 

Back in the day when most of the spiritual schools were under secrecy, students had to take an oath not to reveal the names of their masters. It was common for students under the same master to not know one another. So, we have no value in our tradition on finding out who was whose master. We are only concerned with whether the person we are learning from NOW, can actually help us in our progress. One more reason this matters even less, is that our education is received from our assigned Hu Fa Shen and not a human teacher.

 

My Hu Fa Shen is Jin Xiao Fa.

Now that you know, how does it help you? Can you find him?

 

Every school has it's way, we have ours.

We do not force anyone to learn from us. Those that are interested come and learn and benefit. That's it.

 

I'm actually only concerned with those that already walk through the door.

The other ones take too much of my time : )

 

XYP have Grand Master and other Master initiators so this are real people who initiate and this mean lineage, but they prefere to forgett this and say important is teacher and thus Hu Fa Shen who changed name because before it was called Fu Fak Shen.

 

The person who initiates you is not the one who teaches you.

So your teacher is your assigned Shen Xian or Tian Xian.

You can become initiated, then never meet your initiator again, you will progress just as well.

 

Fu Fak Shen IS Hu Fa Shen IS Fu Fa Shen.... SIGH*

You're grasping at straws buddy...

 

Regarding Fu Fak Shen I dont belive it is Yang Shen, beacuse this means that there are some 140.000 + Xians who teach. Do you think it is posible?

 

Of course it's possible. It is not only possible, it is that way, however you're misinformed here yet again.

Our Hu Fa Shen are Yang Shen, which means they can multiply their bodies infinitely.

 

One Hu Fa Shen can have countless students. It is the nature of Yang Shen.

 

I cant be sure that it is even Yin Shen, but others told me this can be case, which is more probable.

 

You won't know till you find out for yourself.

 

I have my personal opinion and this is that on initiation Master activate Shen......precisly Yuan Shen of student and start to move Yuan Qi which we see as movements in Shen Gong.

 

Wrong, but again you won't know it till you experience it.

If you ever get initiated, when you sit down and start having a conversation with your Hu Fa Shen, you can revise your reply.

 

He/She is an independent conscious being and not you. They have a name, a history, a personality and a life and every Hu Fa Shen and Xian is different.

 

Dao Yin Shu and Yang Sheng are good and Nei Dan for sure have elements of it when it is formed in late VIII century, but Dao Yin Shu and Yang Sheng are Hout Tian and not Xian Tian.

 

Dao Yin Shu that has lost the root of Divine Guidance from the Xian is Houtian.

Dao Yin Shu that has retained the root of Divine Guidance from the Xian is Xiantian.

 

There is a fundamental difference in the source of the energy used to trigger and maintain cultivation and the level of the teacher.

 

In one system the energy is coarse, in the other it is fine. 

In one system the teacher is an unrealised human, in the other it is a realised Xian.

 

Hence why we have XTDYS and HTDYS.

 

I know XYP now (but not before few years) mentioned that DYS is Xian Tian which for me is not true. How some can prove it?

 

At initiation, the disciple is assigned to their Hu Fa Shen, then all questions are automatically answered.

Once your teacher connects to you, begins moving you and communicating with you and you can feel their presence and touch, then questions of whether it's Yang Shen or not simply disappear.

 

Just say it is Xian Tian have no value, vecause Yuan states cant be percepted at all.

Also Dao Yin Shu is just basic and start, and cant be the  only practice nor it can made Yang Shen. 
I believe there must be other practices in higher degrees of XYP which can produce possibly Yang Shen.Is there such practice?

 

That's why we don't just say anything in XYP, we prove it through initiation, by backing up our words and connecting the student to a Xian from our school. We're not much for belief...

 

Our whole practise is called, Xiantian Dao Yin Shu. It consists of:

 

Xian Tian Shen Gong

Xian Tian Qi Gong

Xian Tian Jing Zuo

 

That's it. There are no higher practises : )

 

Problem is started when western students of XYP try to explain system with Nei Dan terms, but I know that XYP dont teach Nei Dan nor they replenish Jing and Qi. 

 

We teach the cultivation of Yang Shen, most people would call that Nei Dan or Jin Dan. You can call it anything you like. Butterfly Unicorn Immortal Body Art, if you want to. The name doesn't matter, only the effect.

 

We don't really actively do too much in XTDYS, most of our practice is Wuwei, so Shen, Qi and Jing all take care of themselves. It's the difference between XT and HT Xiulian. One is very Youwei for along time, while the other is very Wuwei from the start, but we manifest all the same results and others.

Edited by effilang
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So how is to fuse Yin Shen with Yuan Jing and Yuan Qi precisly if you neglect to replenish it?

 

Maybe have a read of these:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=725813

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/?p=727871

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/?p=727858

 

XYP work on Shen and from Shen go in natural wordly way to Qi and Jing,and we all know what classic say that true way is reversal and not wordly way of manifestation.

 

Buddy, for someone who is relying solely on supposition here, I wouldn't speak so matter of factly.

Let me put you straight.

 

You say you have read all I've written, but you didn't pay much attention.

 

When we trigger our Yuan Shen, we begin to move into Wuji, but the primordial Qi which Hu Fa Shen bridges to us also steps down to nourish our Qi and Jing. It all happens simultaneously.

 

Working on Shen only with no Yuan Qi to fuse you made just Yin Shen. Yang Shen is made from yang and this yang come from Ming Gong so again contradiction by western members interpretation and I belive Indonesian Masters dont claim that Dao Yin Shu is Xian Tian, nor that XYP work Nei Dan nor that it form Yang Shen. 

 

You believe, you believe, you believe.... where is the actual proof?

We develop both Ming and Xing in XTDYS and Yang Shen. Please read up on my posts, I'm too lazy to repeat myself.

 

Please tell me who these Indonesian masters are so that I can have a word with them...

 

Maybe we can see original books of the school and  how they explain its doctrine?

 

We don't have a doctrine or dogma. Anything that is written in a book is just an opinion to us until we can prove it ourselves.

We carry out this investigation and motion towards proof by practising directly with different Hu Fa Shen and learning from them.

 

If you believe so STRONGLY in what another man wrote in a book several thousand years ago, that you use it as a yard stick for everything, how will you ever be able to exercise discretion in the presence of a Xian? 

 

You will fail immediately, because you put these figures on a pedestal.

 

Our Hu Fa Shen are always testing us and pushing us to cultivate our wisdom. You have to challenge Hu Fa Shen and learn and not simply take the information they give us as true, because they are Xian. This is antithetical to our ethos which emphasises the development of Wu.

 

We must develop our OWN wisdom and not follow the wisdom of others, whether they are dead or alive or immortal.

 

More about our relationship to HFS:

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42456-xiao-yao-pai-xiantian-dao-yin-shu-official-thread/?p=719356

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42456-xiao-yao-pai-xiantian-dao-yin-shu-official-thread/?p=719251

 

Because XYP is manifested in the world in 1970, this time is interesting because in that time also we see Mo Pai who also have similar practices and it also dont show lineage nor history and it is on Indonesia to. What I find interesting is that such practices are more close to Tenaga Dalam (Tridaya) from Indonesia to which is added Daoist history of origin. In modern Indonesia mostly Muslims work Ilmu Khodan and Tenaga Dalam (Tridaya).

 

Well you'll be happy to know that our Tao Yu are Daoists by practice and not Muslims.

Our initiation is similar to a baptism in Christianity if you will, so one officially becomes a Daoist under Taishang Laojun after they have been initiated. 

 

And a human body getting possessed by a pigs spirit? Really?

The Hun and Po configuration of an animal and that of a human are different.

The human spirit has additional aspects which that of an animal lacks that would prevent such a possession...

 

Further, Tridaya has nothing to do with Xiao Yao Pai.

 

Here's is a little about possessions, spirits, Yang Shen and all that.

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42657-why-do-you-say-school/?p=723714

 

A member called FlowingHands already tried to take a swing at us with the 1970s angle and failed:

Here is more on that: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42512-xiao-yao-pai-and-other-arts-from-china/

 

My reply to those claims here: 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42456-xiao-yao-pai-xiantian-dao-yin-shu-official-thread/?p=720068

 

To better explain how it is similar here I am to post one ritual which I think is pretty similar to XYP initiation ceremony:

 

Ok, lets have a look at these "similarities".

 

There are many theories concerning this art, the gist of it is that when we are alive; our soul are imprisoned within the body. Our soul could be awaken and released from our body through prayer and the help of higher spiritual forces. Otherwise, this would be quite impossible when a person is still alive.

 

In XYP we don't consider the soul to a be a prisoner of the body. This is a preposterous notion to us.

The soul is already awake and it cannot simply be released after it is as you say "awakened", it first needs a body; Yang Shen with which to become one; a body that can exist in Wuji.

 

So this has nothing to do with our school.

 

Prerequisites

 
·         One must be healthy.
·         One must be kind hearted.
·         One must be knowledgeable: not follow things blindly.
·         One must not be too engrossed in supernatural things.
·         One must be persistent, calm, fair and doing thing step wise.

 

We do not have such pre-requisites. One must simply be.

Edited by effilang
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It is not difficult to practise soul awakening method; one only has to find a clean and bright place. He/She will need to sit with his/her back straight on a chair and with both hands in clasping/prayer position.

 

We can practise XTDYS anywhere, anytime. The place does not matter.

 

After that one only needs to pray for his/her patron gods/goddesses to help. It is also advisable to do a silent rhythm chant such as “o-mi-to-fo” etc. continuously as if in meditation for an hour or so.

 

We don't chant in our school. That triggers the Shi Shen.

This is counterproductive to XTDYS.

 

Some people will feel his/her hands shaking at first and gradually dance or perform martial arts stunts.

Proponents say the patron spirits are guiding the practitioners but I would not want to comment.

 

I wouldn't want to comment either : )

 

·         A healthier body and mind

·         Obtain psychic powers
·         Foundation for other higher practices

 

We don't have another practice other than XTDYS.

 

The purpose of soul awakening exercise is to achieve self mastery on one’s soul. However, if one’s mind is not strong and other external spirits took control, then he/she may become a spirit medium instead. Once this situation happens, this person will never be able to spirits from possessing his/her body.

 

Not possible in our system. I've explained why on many occasions before and in extensive detail.

Please search through my posts.

 

This is for now, I have some more opinions and highly interesting findings related to origin of the school its practice and why they belive it is superior to Nei Dan, which I am to post another time.

 

I've never said that Xiantian Neidan is superior. It is however different.

 

How about you maybe stop with the opinions and trying to defame and smear our name and actually present some facts, instead of just beliefs?

 

I hope that XYP members are not to get me wrong because I personaly dont have anything against XYP but contrary I am interested in their method which maybe I am to try some day.

 

Of course I am getting you WRONG, everything you pretty much said IS, WRONG in relation to our school, so how about stop with the presumptions until you actually have some verifiable experience?

 

Either you are an official member of our school and have been educated properly or you are not part of our school and have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to our art. It can't be both....

 

I don't understand the mentality of people who have not experienced something, talking about it as if they have. Can someone explain the logic?

Edited by effilang

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Posted (edited)

Happy New Year to everyone! 


May the upcoming year of the Fire Rooster, galantly grace your goals and ambitions


and bring you much luck, health, prosperity and love. Tai Shang Bao Yu! : )


 


15825866_10153993535691364_6561567531185


Edited by effilang
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