Is rigpa really that simple?

[steve]

I'd like to expand on Rigdzin Trinley's earlier comments.

I would like to express my hope that we all look at ourselves a little more closely and nakedly and be a little more realistic and grounded.

 

Of course we all have our own words, that's what we're typing.

They may be an illusion but that is irrelevant, they are how we communicate, they impact our lives and emotions.

 

The chance of any of us experiencing rainbow body is so far fetched as to be a joke.

It's fine to work towards it but there are so many steps along the way that can enrich our lives and the lives of others it is sad to see folks ignore the beauty of the path.

 

Of course we all experience localized mind and awareness.

It's fine to speak and dream of the absolute and those of us fortunate enough even get glimpses of it from time to time.

But to deny our relative, day to day life is to live in a fantasy - that is not what spirituality is about.

 

These practices are absolutely marvelous and transformative when we practice them and apply them in concrete and practical ways in our daily lives; but when we get wrapped up in our intellectual projections and ego games like I see happening here, they're worse than doing nothing. This is precisely why they were kept secret for so long. 

 

Sorry for the rant but we need to get off of our ego trips and be real people and relate to one another with respect and compassion. Otherwise this is all a complete waste of time and energy.

And don't think I consider myself better than anyone else - I'm guilty of all of the above but I am aware and working on it. 

I hope you will join me. 

 

Peace

[9th]

[Jetsun]

You may not get rainbow body but anyone can realise the truth of who and what they are, one of the biggest fallacies going is that it is difficult, the other fallacy is that it is rare.

[steve]

It is difficult until it happens...

I still think it's relatively rare.

[Jetsun]

I guess it depends in which circles you move in, I have met a handful of people who have awakened just this year,

[Tibetan_Ice]

I guess it depends in which circles you move in, I have met a handful of people who have awakened just this year,

Hi Jetsun,

What is your definition of awakened?

- realizing that you are not the thinker?

- obtaining some new age siddhis like clairvoyance or premonition?

- able to read minds or manipulate others' body parts?

- major siddhis like walking through walls, leaving footprints in stone, flying through the air?

- ability to heal serious diseases in others?

- no longer suffering and has no more desires?

- can manifest objects out of thin air?

- knows all their previous lives?

 

How do you define "awakening"?

-

[Jetsun]

Hi Jetsun,

What is your definition of awakened?

- realizing that you are not the thinker?

- obtaining some new age siddhis like clairvoyance or premonition?

- able to read minds or manipulate others' body parts?

- major siddhis like walking through walls, leaving footprints in stone, flying through the air?

- ability to heal serious diseases in others?

- no longer suffering and has no more desires?

- can manifest objects out of thin air?

- knows all their previous lives?

 

How do you define "awakening"?

-

On a basic level it's people who genuinely don't know who they are any more, are no longer trying to prove/assert themselves.

 

People who have had a radical shift of identity out of individuality and seperation so it is recognised what they truly are in the deeper aspect of their identity is beyond birth and death

[C T]

Awakening is not difficult. Remaining uninterruptedly so is not so common. 

[steve]

Yes I've also met a handful in the past year who have and many more who haven't.

And what is it that determines the difference?

Surely not knowledge, devotion, or effort.

Tell those who are waiting and searching how easy it is!

[9th]

Awakening is not difficult. Remaining uninterruptedly so is not so common. 

 

This is it in a nutshell.  You could also say there is a difference between being "enlightened" and residing in "enlightenment".  Thats where you get ideas such as "many are called, few are chosen" etc.

 

Its similar to the difference between walking a new path or backtracking your own footprints.  The living energy of the process in motion is rare, but the results of how it has moved are all around us.  If we have personally experienced awakening in our own lives, the results are even more apparent.  Having an experience of being "awakened" is not a guarantee of anything in this life, however.  Neither is the nostalgia surrounding it that people love to wallow in.

 

This is why it is often suggested not to work for results, just to do the work.

[WisteriaWinds]

Yes, awakening permanently is a challenge.

 

 

Here's a notion to play with...

What if EVERYTHING is impermanent? What if rather than grasping onto awakening, we recognize all things come and go?

Instead we can abide calmly and faithfully in the reality that the conditions which produced our awakening will naturally arise again.

[Jeff]

Or what if one just simply realizes that if something is coming and going, they are describing changing states of consciousness and such is still games of the mind...

[Tibetan_Ice]

On a basic level it's people who genuinely don't know who they are any more, are no longer trying to prove/assert themselves.

 

People who have had a radical shift of identity out of individuality and seperation so it is recognised what they truly are in the deeper aspect of their identity is beyond birth and death

This sounds suspiciously like a "Oneness" theory, not a realization of Emptiness but some kind of Unity of something.

In Buddhism, like in the Nang Jang, the first step is to throw away the label of self-identity, but you don't replace it with its dualistic opposite, unity.

https://www.amazon.com/Buddhahood-Without-Meditation-Visionary-Refining/dp/1881847330/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

 

ON ANOTHER OCCASION, when I encountered Or· gyan Tsokyey Dorje-the embodiment of the magical illusion of timeless awareness-he bestowed advice for refining my perception of things so that I could see that they are illusory (gyu-ma). He said, "For me to introduce you directly to the interdependence of causes and conditions coming together, consider this: The cause is the ground of being as basic space (zhi-ying), which is pristinely lucid (dang·sal) and endowed with the capacity for anything whatsoever to arise. The condition is a consciousness that conceives of an '1.' From the coming together of these two, all sensory appearance (nang-wa) manifest like illusions.

 

"In this way, the ground of being as basic space, ordinary mind (sem) that arises from the dynamic energy (tzal) of that ground, and the external and internal phenomena that constitute the manifest aspect of that mind are all interlinked (lu-gu- gyud), like the sun and its rays. Thus, we use the expression 'occurring in interdependent connection.'

 

"Here are some metaphors for this process: It is like the appearance of a magical illusion, which depends on the pristine clarity of space as the cause and manifests through the interdependent connection created by the synchronicity of the conditions-that is, magical substances, mantras, and the mind that creates the illusion.

 

"All phenomena, which manifest as they do, are ineffable, yet appear due to the influence of conceiving of an '1.' This process is like a mirage appearing from the synchronicity of vividly clear space and the presence of warmth and moisture.

 

" All sensory appearances of waking consciousness, dream states, the bardo, and future lifetimes are apparent yet ineffable. Confusion comes about due to fixation on their seeming truth. This is like a dream that one does not consider false-thinking, 'This is a dream'-but instead reifies and fixates on as some enduring objective environment.

 

"Due to the predominant condition of the perception of an inner '1,' the realm of phenomena manifests as something 'other.• This is like the appearance of a reflection through the interdependent connection of a face and a mirror coming together.

 

" Because one is thoroughly ensnared by concepts of identity (dag-dzin), the realms of the six states manifest one after the other. This is like the cities of the gandharvas appearing in one's environment-for example, on a plain at sunset-as visionary experiences reified by the ordinary mind.

 

"While sensory appearances are primordially such that they have never existed, the myriad appearances that are seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or felt are like echoes-subjective appearances manifesting as though they were something else.

 

"All sensory appearances are not other than the ground of being, but are of one taste with that ground itself, like the reflections of all the planets and stars in the ocean that are not other than the ocean, but are of one taste with the water itself.

 

"Due to the concept of an 'I,' self and other manifest as though they truly existed within the panoramic sky of the ground of being, expansive basic space. This is analogous to bubbles forming on water.

 

"The pristine lucidity of the ground of being as empty basic space is forced into the narrow confines of the subjective perception of consciousness based on conceptual mind (yid- shey). The influence of this entrenched habit causes sensory appearances perceived in confusion to manifest in all their variety. This is like the appearance of a hallucination when pressure is applied to the optic nerve or when one's nervous system is disturbed by an imbalance of subtle energy (lung).

 

"Sensory appearances manifest from the ground of being in all their variety in view of a consciousness that conceives of an 'I,' yet they do not diverge from or occur outside of that ground. This is like the case of an adept who has gained mastery (wang gyur-wa) over states of meditative absorption (ting- nge-dzin) that permit the emanation and control of phantoms. Although a variety of phantoms manifest when such an individual is engaged in this process of emanation and control, in actuality these phantoms are free of any basis and have never existed as real objects.

 

"Ah, my incredible little child, meditate progressively in this way and, having realized that all sensory appearances are illusory, you will become a yogin of illusion.,

 

Saying this, he vanished.

 

 

Therefore, within the context of Dudjom Lingpa's teachings, Unity would be also a form of reification and thus, a form of false thinking.

 

To me, awakening is not shifting from one illusion to another, it is the realization that by reifying concepts we create our own illusion. By grasping the "I" the rest of the dualistic world unfolds. By grasping the scene which lies ahead of our source of manifestation, we enter the illusion.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

The chance of any of us experiencing rainbow body is so far fetched as to be a joke.

 

It's fine to work towards it but there are so many steps along the way that can enrich our lives and the lives of others it is sad to see folks ignore the beauty of the path.

 

Speak for yourself. It is not about enriching our lives or fixating on the beauty of the path. That will only lead you back into endless reincarnations. One of the key components to Buddhism is a certain dissatisfaction with life. Dukkha. Dissatisfaction with impermanence and suffering. If you did realize that life is an illusion, wouldn't you lose interest? Wouldn't you want to turn off the TV set?

 

I hope everyone here realizes rainbow body in this lifetime (if they so desire) Wells included.

 

Of course we all experience localized mind and awareness.

It's fine to speak and dream of the absolute and those of us fortunate enough even get glimpses of it from time to time.

But to deny our relative, day to day life is to live in a fantasy - that is not what spirituality is about.

 

Denying the relative is a form of nihilism, isn't it?

 

These practices are absolutely marvelous and transformative when we practice them and apply them in concrete and practical ways in our daily lives; but when we get wrapped up in our intellectual projections and ego games like I see happening here, they're worse than doing nothing. This is precisely why they were kept secret for so long.

 

I know Tenzin Wangyal has the impetus to try to improve one's daily life. However, that is the exception, not the norm. I can see that better health is a benefit because you have to train the mind. However, doing practices because you want to enhance your daily is for the wrong reasons.

 

Keeping teachings secret benefits only those few whom know the secrets. In this modern age of communication, some authentic gurus are realizing that secrecy will lead to the death of the teachings. The aspiration that all sentient beings come to realization is at odds with secrecy.

 

I believe the path to no more suffering is one wrought with wrestling those intellectual projections and ego games. If you don't learn to deal with them somehow, how are you going to deal with them all by yourself in the bardo?

 

A forum is a great place to test your training wheels. but I agree.. A little compassion, respect and consideration goes a long way.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[thetaoiseasy]

Many words have been used to label the absolute state: Unity. Emptiness. Pure Yang. Oneness. Natural State.  Formless. No-self.

 

But in spiritual understanding, where 1+1=1,

 

The opposite of pure yang is not pure yin.

The opposite of emptiness is not fullness.

The opposite of oneness is not division.

The opposite of natural state is not the unnatural state.

The opposite of the formless is not the formed.

The opposite of no-self is not self.

 

The absolute states have no opposite. How could they? The absolute states actually include the relative states! The names of the absolute states only appear to have opposite, because of the limitation of words. We reluctantly give the absolute states labels and descriptions for the sake of communication. But it should be for communication only.  If one focuses on the verbal communication of these states, and not their understanding, we develop a sharp-tongue with witticisms fit for verbal sparring but do not develop understanding. 

[9th]

We reluctantly give the absolute states labels and descriptions for the sake of communication. But it should be for communication only.  If one focuses on the verbal communication of these states, and not their understanding, we develop a sharp-tongue with witticisms fit for verbal sparring but do not develop understanding. 

 

It is even worse if we have no knowledge or personal experience of the absolute states, and yet remain attached to the verbal descriptions and expressions gathered from others who have, mistaking them for our own understanding, and arguing for or against them based on such appropriations.  What is being developed is no different than the standard divisive attitude which prevails among lay society, which requires people to sharply define their identity through opposition to another.  Such playing at practice, pretending to practice, giving lip service to the dharma but still acting against it - its quite a normal situation.  And it fits in with all the other normal situations quite well.  Hypocrisy is not the exception, but rather its the rule for people who have unconscious minds -  such as most people on the street, the average lay person that has never heard of these practices and has no interest in them.

[Jetsun]

This sounds suspiciously like a "Oneness" theory, not a realization of Emptiness but some kind of Unity of something.

In Buddhism, like in the Nang Jang, the first step is to throw away the label of self-identity, but you don't replace it with its dualistic opposite, unity.

https://www.amazon.com/Buddhahood-Without-Meditation-Visionary-Refining/dp/1881847330/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

 

Therefore, within the context of Dudjom Lingpa's teachings, Unity would be also a form of reification and thus, a form of false thinking.

 

To me, awakening is not shifting from one illusion to another, it is the realization that by reifying concepts we create our own illusion. By grasping the "I" the rest of the dualistic world unfolds. By grasping the scene which lies ahead of our source of manifestation, we enter the illusion.

 

As far as my understanding and experience goes emptiness and unity are kind of two sides of the same coin. It is only possible to see that you are everything if it is realised that there is no "I" inside of you which is separate from everything else.

 

If anything exists at all it must be part of you as it all arises within the same space, there are no boundaries to separate once your own individual sense of I collapses, it is all one big fluid thing, yet if you look into the essence of anything nothing can be found, so you can't really say what anything is or really if anything is. 

 

But in terms of how Buddhists categorise Rigpa I am no expert but I don't see how Rigpa isn't just another word for awareness, not consciousness because consciousness is conscious of something and consciousness isn't there in the deepest parts of sleep but awareness is. Thoughts, emotions, sense objects, the world, all arise within awareness, it is the only constant, it is the context while everything else is the content. Awakening is more about having a somewhat permanent realisation that you are this context, rather than exclusively identifying with a limited aspect of temporary content such as your body-mind complex. 

[RigdzinTrinley]

dear jetsun,

 

buddha didn't teach the unified green cosmic jello - this is a teaching of rigdzin trinley as all my dharma brother and sisters can affirm for you

 

EDIT: sorry I am in a strange mood, just landed in Iceland, 1am in the morning - the sun just went up. As I am a professional Dharma-bum I have no money for a hotel for a half a night, so I made my bed on the stonefloor in the arrival hall. A security guard keeps waking me up, most be the sign above my "bed" that says "sleeping/camping/cooking is prohibited here"

 

me being half an indian baba by now just say to myelf fuck em, and try to sleep now sitting up...

Edited July 3, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[Tibetan_Ice]

[Jetsun]

dear jetsun,

 

buddha didn't teach the unified green cosmic jello - this is a teaching of rigdzin trinley as all my dharma brother and sisters can affirm for you

 

EDIT: sorry I am in a strange mood, just landed in Iceland, 1am in the morning - the sun just went up. As I am a professional Dharma-bum I have no money for a hotel for a half a night, so I made my bed on the stonefloor in the arrival hall. A security guard keeps waking me up, most be the sign above my "bed" that says "sleeping/camping/cooking is prohibited here"

 

me being half an indian baba by now just say to myelf fuck em, and try to sleep now sitting up...

 

Unification is just a fact, a scientific fact as well as a "spiritual", our bodies all come from the same earth and go back to it, we exchange atoms and energy, we exchange the same air with a symbiotic relationship with trees and plants, food passes through us to be used by other organisms, even our words and simple deeds have causal effects on others. In terms of the theory of dependent origination is it not just a big bundle of causes and effects bumping up against each other. 

 

It is only having a false sense of being a separate individual "I" that prevents us from recognising this obvious interdependence and union on this level which is right in our faces. 

 

The direction of Buddhas teaching is towards no self, but unification in a certain sense is a inevitable byproduct of that, not a merge but just a sharing of the same innate nature, space and interdepedence. Who owns Rigpa? can it be said to have barriers and limitations? can it be said that the Rigpa that you experience is a different Rigpa that I experience or even that the Buddha experienced? It can't, which is why when Suzuki Roshi was dying he could say to his students "don't worry, it is only the Buddha suffering", without any I it is all Buddha. 

 

As they often chant as part of the Heart Sutra in Japan "Buddha nature pervades the whole universe", our inner most essence is Buddha nature and Buddha nature is everywhere and everything, so that is the kind of unification I am talking about,not a kind of big psychological jelly merge 

[C T]

The direction of Buddha's teachings is more towards the eradication of wrong views of self, rather than affirming some kind of truth of no-self. Actually the basis of Dharma is to disband ignorant views, and its said when these views are snuffed out then that which remains is a view that is in touch with the 'real'. The Muni discouraged attempts to define what this 'real' is because it can only arise through causes and conditions, usually in Buddhism this is related to the cultivation/accumulation of merit, and individual karmic processes dictates that these causes and conditions may differ from one person to the next. 

 

 

Jetsun said: The direction of Buddhas teaching is towards no self....

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by C T

[Jetsun]

The direction of Buddha's teachings is more towards the eradication of wrong views of self, rather than affirming some kind of truth of no-self. Actually the basis of Dharma is to disband ignorant views, and its said when these views are snuffed out then that which remains is a view that is in touch with the 'real'. The Muni discouraged attempts to define what this 'real' is because it can only arise through causes and conditions, usually in Buddhism this is related to the cultivation/accumulation of merit, and individual karmic processes dictates that these causes and conditions may differ from one person to the next. 

 

Well anatta or anatman (no self) is one of the principle pillars of Buddhism,one of the three right understandings about the three marks of existence, which is what distinguishes it from Hindu dharma. It isn't really an affirmation but a eradication.

[C T]

Well anatta or anatman (no self) is one of the principle pillars of Buddhism,one of the three right understandings about the three marks of existence, which is what distinguishes it from Hindu dharma. It isn't really an affirmation but a eradication.

If you go deeper into the study of this particular doctrine you will note the subtle but vital difference between no-self and not-self. 

 

This may help point the way if you are interested to adjust your thinking

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html

[Jetsun]

I can only speak from my own experience, during a retreat last year I went to a deep place in meditation where there was nothing, entirely no self. My sense of self inevitably returned but it created quite a shock and threat to my system afterwards which reverberates even to today, and poses the existential question that if one minute it isn't there any more whether it actually exists in the first place

[C T]

I can only speak from my own experience, during a retreat last year I went to a deep place in meditation where there was nothing, entirely no self. My sense of self inevitably returned but it created quite a shock and threat to my system afterwards which reverberates even to today, and poses the existential question that if one minute it isn't there any more whether it actually exists in the first place.

Precisely why a correct view of anatta is quite helpful - not as a stand-alone principle but one which needs to be contemplated together with anicca and dukkha. Otherwise it'll be difficult to pierce or deconstruct the tight knots of ignorance, delusion and tendencies, which includes seeing experiences as either real or unreal, exist or non-existent, coming and going, birth and death, and so on. 

 

More important than knowing truths which fall short of addressing views that do not bring resolution to seeing how emptiness and form arise and subside inseparably. According to the Muni, knowing how to apply relative or conventional truths in order to blow out ignorance and develop right insight into dependent origination will alleviate confusion altogether. Once confusion is cut at the root, then we no longer need to struggle with further existential questions arising from the primary ones relating to self.