Is rigpa really that simple?

[9th]

until you yourself have an experience of simultaneous arising (or sahaja), all the discussion is pointless at best...

 

and an actual hindrance at worst - because you will be looking for something based on your interpretation of second hand information

 

its true that dzogchen and mahamudra type methods are not for everyone, and there is a damn good reason for it - anyways, if you really understand what its all about at that level, the last thing you will want or need is another system to filter it through

[Tibetan_Ice]

That's an excellent question and I would say that yes, every sort of consciousness or awareness is an awareness of self. The question is whether or not it is recognized as such. If that knowing or recognizing aspect (rigpa) is not present sounds, lights, and rays are seen as other and that is the basis for ignorance - ma rigpa. If visions are recognized as self, that is the knowing denoted by the word rigpa. And it is not simply an intellectual knowing, it is a direct experience of the knowing or recognition itself - very hard for me to put into words. For me, this is the better usage of the term rigpa - I think it is very misleading to use the word rigpa when what we are really referring to is the natural state.

 

...

 

I think it is deceptive to use the word "self". It is also deceptive to say that "every sort of consciousness or awareness is an awareness of self"

From THE PRACTICE

OF DZOGCHEN IN THE ZHANG·ZHUNG TRADITION OF TIBET

 

Translations from the

 

Bonpo Dzogchen Practice Manual:

The Gyalwa Chaktri of Druchen Gyalwa Yungdrung, and

The Seven-fold Cycle of the Clear Light

 

The Dark Retreat Practice from The Zhang-zhung Nyan-gyud

 

Translated with Commentaries and Notes by John Myrdhin Reynolds

 

 

The first section directly introduces one to the three aspects of

the Nature of Mind, as well as their unity, namely,

1. The Mother ( a), which is the Kunzhi (kun-gzhi), "the basis of everything,"

2. The Son (bu), which is Rigpa, or intrinsic awareness,

3. The Energy (rtsal), which is the pure potentiality for all possible

manifestations, and

4. Their unity or inseparability (dbyer-med).

The Mother Kunzhi, characterized as the basis of everything, is

the Essence (ngo-bo), that is to say, the state of Shunyata, and this is equated with the Dharmakaya. This Kunzhi is distinguished from and should not be confused with the Kunzhi Namshe (kun-gzhi rnam-shes, Skt. alaya-vijnana), which is a type of consciousness. Consciousness (rnam-shes) represents awareness (rig-pa) when it is mixed up with and limited by mind, or mental processes. The Kunzhi is beyond mind and consciousness, but provides the space and matrix for their manifestation. In the text, the Mother is characterized by eight possible designations. The Son Rigpa, is characterized as luminous clarity (gsal-ba), and as being the Nature (rang-bzhin). This is equated with the Sambhogakaya. These two, the Mother and Son, are not separate entities or emanations; they have been inseparable from the very beginning (ye nas dbyer-med), like the two sides of the same coin. They are only distinguished for purposes of human understanding. The Kunzhi may be compared to the open and unobstructed dimension of the sky and Rigpa may be compared to the face of the sun appearing in the sky and which illuminates that space. Thus, whereas Kunzhi is compared to space, Rigpa is compared to light. This Rigpa, or intrinsic awareness, is fundamental to existence itself and is not something derived from anything other than itself. Their inseparability represents the potential energy (rtsal) of this illuminated space to give birth to all possible forms and manifestations. This potential energy becomes visible as sounds, lights, and rays (sgra 'od zer gsum). Sounds means subtle vibrations, lights means the pure lights in five colors, and rays means visible forms.

 

[steve]

I think it is deceptive to use the word "self". It is also deceptive to say that "every sort of consciousness or awareness is an awareness of self"

 

Yes - you are right in pointing out that these are potentially deceptive and confusing comments.

I could try to clarify my interpretation and response to Wells' observation but I doubt it would be of much value to anyone.

Less talk and more practice for me!

Thanks for the response.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well I can't resist. If you look at the way the term "rigpa " is used in these next excellent quotes, one sees that there are varying gradations of rigpa, like in the heart and the Kati channel.

 

One also sees that the visions which arise through the Kati channel from the heart are facilitated by the doorways of the eyes.

 

 

 

Has nothing to do with gazing at sunlight as Wells and Jax would have you believe.

 

 

 

From the same book, THE PRACTICE

 

OF DZOGCHEN IN THE ZHANG·ZHUNG TRADITION OF TIBET:

 

 

 

Within the physical heart, there is the interior arising of self­ awareness. This is the Dharmakaya in its own form. Because the inherent energy of Rigpa is entirely complete on the pathway of the (kati) channel, the Sambhogakaya is self-arising. Because there arise at the doorway of the eyes all the magical apparitions of the mind, the Nirmanakaya is directly introduced as being self-arising. [23]

 

According to the gZer-bu, "Within the vast expanse of the physical heart, self-awareness abides as the Dharmakaya. In terms of the pathway of the (kati) channel (extending from the heart to the eyeballs), there is the Nature and this abides as the Sambhogakaya.The self-arising (of the visions) at the doorway of the lamp (of the eyes) represents the Nirmanakaya." [24]

 

Moreover, the primal awareness which is Rigpa has been primordially pure from the very beginning and has existed free from any root (or source). It is the Dharmakaya itself. However, due to the power of the linkage of the body and the mind, and because the powers of all the Kulas (or families) of divine forms come forth everywhere as primal cognitions (ye-shes), this is the Sambhogakaya. And this conduct as various different activities of the three gates (of body, speech, and mind) is the Nirmanakaya. [25]

 

Again, according to the gZer-bu, "The primal awareness of one's own Rigpa is the primordially pure Dharmakaya. The linkage of the body and mind is the Sambhogakaya. The various different activities occurring everywhere are the Nirmanakaya." [26] So it is said.

 

Moreover, in the middle of the physical heart, Rigpa (abides even at present) shining as Buddhahood and this is known as Primordial Buddhahood (ye sangs-rgyas-pa). In the hollow tube of the (kati) channel, the three energies are entwined without ever being separated. This is the Perfect Buddhahood (rdzogs snangs-rgyas-pa). And at the doorway of the lamp (of the eyes) it arises brilliantly and directly penetratingly everywhere without any obscurations. This is the Buddhahood becoming visibly manifest (mngon sangs-rgyas-pa). [27]

 

Moreover, the Nature of Mind, also known as the Essence and as emptiness, is the Dharmakaya in its own form. The aspect of luminous clarity is the Sambhogakaya in its own form. And the arising (of visions) as various different magical apparitions is the Nirmanakaya in its own form. Therefore, emptiness, clarity, and vision represent the Trikaya (in terms of one's own immediate experience). [28] So saying, one makes the direct introduction.

 

Furthermore, they are outer, inner, and secret in terms of their manner of arising. Because everything remains always as the Essence itself (that is, as emptiness), it is the Dharmakaya. Because it always abides naturally and unceasingly, it is the Sambhogakay a. And because the magical apparitions always arise in an uncertain manner, it is the Nirmanakaya. [29]

 

Again, because everything, whether subtle or coarse, even one's own discursive thoughts, all represent the side of emptiness, it is the Dharmakaya. As for the side of clarity, that represents the Sambhogakaya. And as for the side of magical apparitions, that represents the Nirmanakaya. [30]

 

Accordingly, (in the same way) seeing things as being external (to oneself) is the manner for the arising of visions, whereas experiences and understanding is the manner of producing things internally. Therefore, everything is mixed up together and this is introduced (to the disciple) in an extensive manner.

 

 

 

 

There you go. Direct Introduction.

 

The visions, which are seen, is Buddhahood becoming visibly manifest.

[steve]

Well I can't resist. If you look at the way the term "rigpa " is used in these next excellent quotes, one sees that there are varying gradations of rigpa, like in the heart and the Kati channel.

 

One also sees that the visions which arise through the Kati channel from the heart are facilitated by the doorways of the eyes.

 

 

 

Has nothing to do with gazing at sunlight as Wells and Jax would have you believe.

 

 

 

From the same book, THE PRACTICE

 

OF DZOGCHEN IN THE ZHANG·ZHUNG TRADITION OF TIBET:

 

 

 

 

There you go. Direct Introduction.

 

The visions, which are seen, is Buddhahood becoming visibly manifest.

I disagree on two points-

1. Primordially pure innate self-awareness has no gradation, only our experience of it can be said to have gradation

2. I don't see that quotation as direct introduction, just a description. Introduction uses methods to elicit the naked, non-verbal, non-conceptual experience

[ralis]

I disagree on two points-

1. Primordially pure innate self-awareness has no gradation, only our experience of it can be said to have gradation

2. I don't see that quotation as direct introduction, just a description. Introduction uses methods to elicit the naked, non-verbal, non-conceptual experience

 

Isn't that what I have been saying for years on here, but in a slightly different way?

[Tibetan_Ice]

I disagree on two points-

1. Primordially pure innate self-awareness has no gradation, only our experience of it can be said to have gradation

2. I don't see that quotation as direct introduction, just a description. Introduction uses methods to elicit the naked, non-verbal, non-conceptual experience

Well, I never said that "primordially pure innate self-awareness" has a gradation. I said rigpa has a gradation.. I would never call rigpa "primordially pure innate self-awareness" because that is an oxymoron isn't it? Rigpa is empty so there is no self to be aware of. Rigpa is aware of rigpa but rigpa is not a self.

 

 

Once you have an experience of full blown rigpa you will realize that there is a gradation. Rigpa mixed with many thoughts is hard to recognize. Rigpa with a few thoughts is getting easier. Full blown rigpa is shiny, luminescent, clear, loving, blissful timeless and spacious. If rigpa is like space, like the little space in your head and it can expand, then that expansion is a form of gradient. The pool of rigpa in the heart, when it gushes out of the eyes like a firehouse is higher up the gradient scale.

You can see experience as what evolves and that is fine. I see it the other way.

 

The text says itself that it is a direct introduction. I guess it is only for the adepts.. It is the direct introduction to the three kayas.

 

[

Moreover, the Nature of Mind, also known as the Essence and as emptiness, is the Dharmakaya in its own form. The aspect of luminous clarity is the Sambhogakaya in its own form. And the arising (of visions) as various different magical apparitions is the Nirmanakaya in its own form. Therefore, emptiness, clarity, and vision represent the Trikaya (in terms of one's own immediate experience). [28] So saying, one makes the direct introduction.

 

[9th]

These practices are not a spectator sport.  Id advise backing away from this world if you have no intention of engaging it.

[steve]

Well, I never said that "primordially pure innate self-awareness" has a gradation. I said rigpa has a gradation.. I would never call rigpa "primordially pure innate self-awareness" because that is an oxymoron isn't it? Rigpa is empty so there is no self to be aware of. Rigpa is aware of rigpa but rigpa is not a self.

 

 

Once you have an experience of full blown rigpa you will realize that there is a gradation. Rigpa mixed with many thoughts is hard to recognize. Rigpa with a few thoughts is getting easier. Full blown rigpa is shiny, luminescent, clear, loving, blissful timeless and spacious. If rigpa is like space, like the little space in your head and it can expand, then that expansion is a form of gradient. The pool of rigpa in the heart, when it gushes out of the eyes like a firehouse is higher up the gradient scale.

You can see experience as what evolves and that is fine. I see it the other way.

 

I am still uncomfortable with objectification and conflation of the word rigpa and the natural state.

Rigpa mixed with thoughts, few or many, is not rigpa - it is mind. 

Rigpa is is not loving, blissful, timeless, and spacious - it is simply the self aware aspect of the natural state.

It is primordially pure, it is innate, and it is self awareness. Those are precise terms used in the texts to describe it.

 

The other adjectives are describing other aspects or characteristics of the natural state.

The spacious aspect is timeless, indestructible, clear, the mother, the base; the self aware aspect is luminescent, shiny, the son; the inseparability of the two is the bliss, the love, the manifestation.

 

 

The text says itself that it is a direct introduction. I guess it is only for the adepts.. It is the direct introduction to the three kayas.

 

I think it's instructive to recall that you are quoting from the Oral Transmission of the ZZNG. The way the material is presented is in oral teachings from master to disciple and involves levels of interaction and connection that go far beyond the words. It was never meant to be distributed like a handout to be read by students without the support and clarification of the teacher. I'm simply challenging the idea that the words are enough. For me they are not. If they are enough for you or anyone else, E Ma Ho!

[already]

Although rigpa is very often translated as knowledge i would say that we need to unpack this .

Well to me knowledge means that we are confronted with a reality , we know it and the most important of all we understand it.

So here i would use knowledge with understanding interchangebly .

In that sense rigpa is understanding of the reality of primordial state.This is explained in a bit more detail by Namkhai Norbu in one of his Longsal termas on the subject of the state of Ati.

Unfortunatelly quite often practitioners see rigpa in a limited way talking about it in terms of location, gradation, coming out of the eye or the heart, small rigpa , big rigpa...etc....and the only thing this approach does is to create a type of quantitative dzogchen..

So i would say that rigpa is ultimately understanding of your own state .

[C T]

Although rigpa is very often translated as knowledge i would say that we need to unpack this .

Well to me knowledge means that we are confronted with a reality , we know it and the most important of all we understand it.

So here i would use knowledge with understanding interchangebly .

In that sense rigpa is understanding of the reality of primordial state.This is explained in a bit more detail by Namkhai Norbu in one of his Longsal termas on the subject of the state of Ati.

Unfortunatelly quite often practitioners see rigpa in a limited way talking about it in terms of location, gradation, coming out of the eye or the heart, small rigpa , big rigpa...etc....and the only thing this approach does is to create a type of quantitative dzogchen..

So i would say that rigpa is ultimately understanding of your own state .

Understanding can be a tricky term because it implies that there is something to analyse and conclude, to come to some logical finality. This is useful during the familiarisation phase, but in the maturing phase, the encouragement is to simply rest in naked awareness. So this resting is made all the more stable when activity, from gross and subtle, is allowed to come and go and dissipate by virtue of its own energy rather than following it or complicating it with volitional impulses in which the basis is one of stirring the self into existence.

[Jeff]

Understanding can be a tricky term because it implies that there is something to analyse and conclude, to come to some logical finality. This is useful during the familiarisation phase, but in the maturing phase, the encouragement is to simply rest in naked awareness. So this resting is made all the more stable when activity, from gross and subtle, is allowed to come and go and dissipate by virtue of its own energy rather than following it or complicating it with volitional impulses in which the basis is one of stirring the self into existence.

Yes, but it is also easy to misunderstand and get caught up in a bubble of "little self doing nothing". I believe Norbu's later part of the description in the earlier post is very import...

 

"Finally, the practitioner's task is to integrate the state of knowledge into all his or her daily activities and to develop that capacity to the point of unifying the energy of the physical body with the energy of the outer world."

 

This unification of the energy of the physical body and the outer world is a natural product of "ripening". It is not just some simple mental understanding or quiet mind.

[C T]

Yes, but it is also easy to misunderstand and get caught up in a bubble of "little self doing nothing". I believe Norbu's later part of the description in the earlier post is very import...

 

"Finally, the practitioner's task is to integrate the state of knowledge into all his or her daily activities and to develop that capacity to the point of unifying the energy of the physical body with the energy of the outer world."

 

This unification of the energy of the physical body and the outer world is a natural product of "ripening". It is not just some simple mental understanding or quiet mind.

Therefore, to avoid the pitfalls practice is essential to allow the ripening of rigpa, otherwise it remains just conceptual play. 

[RigdzinTrinley]

I think to really understand this strange term (intellectually) one needs to study the 8 ways of how appearances arise from the ground, how sentient beings are deluded and how küntusangpo is primordially awakened

 

or spend time with realized beings and just realize it beyond mental constructs

 

I also liked a teaching Khen Namdrol Rinpoche gave on the beacon of certainty, he explained that rigpa is "seeing" that the mind is neither exitent, non existent, both or neither - and he elaborated that this is what the master points out to his disciple during the 4th empowerment or while giving an upadesha

 

also

rig has a quality of "seeing" and in amdo dialects they actually use "rig" as the verb for seeing or perceiving something - so it is also used in day to day language in some areas of tibet. Maybe it is good to keep that in mind as another twist to the words meaning?

 

but that is as far as my bookworm learning goes

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[already]

 

I also liked a teaching Khen Namdrol Rinpoche gave on the beacon of certainty, he explained that rigpa is "seeing" that the mind is neither exitent, non existent, both or neither - and he elaborated that this is what the master points out to his disciple during the 4th empowerment or while giving an upadesha

 I would take this to mean something more like "oh, i see now !" as in "oh, i understand now !".

Because this type of seeing is done by the mind .

[Jeff]

Wow! That's what I call a serious misconception of rigpa!

I hope that no one new reads and believes this or tries to learn from this.

But you criticize Jax for his teachings, lol...

 

Here we should speak rather of contemplation, the essential point of which is pure instant presence, or rigpa. The Dzogchen practitioner seeks to understand this state of presence through diverse experiences: of emptiness, of clarity, of sensations of pleasure, and so on.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde 

[ralis]

Jax on facebook just quoted Norbu to describe rigpa,

a quote I fully agree with

and which imo demonstrates a correct conception of rigpa:

 

In other words and in answer to the topic's question:

Yes, rigpa "is that simple", but seemingly not easily understood correctly.

 

That is exactly correct. Norbu said the very same thing when I first met him in 1989. He constantly reiterates the same description in myriad ways with the intention that a broader audience will understand.

[ralis]

 

Here we should speak rather of contemplation, the essential point of which is pure instant presence, or rigpa. The Dzogchen practitioner seeks to understand this state of presence through diverse experiences: of emptiness, of clarity, of sensations of pleasure, and so on.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde 

 

 

 

Are you stating that you are in agreement with Wells given the nature of the quote and understand it. My reason for asking is that you posted a quote with no remarks.

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[Jeff]

Are you stating that you are in agreement with Wells given the nature of the quote and understand it. My reason for asking is that you posted a quote with no remarks.

 

 

My quote was in response to Wells post to TI that I quoted.  It is not in response to the Jax quote from Norbu.

 

the state of self-perfection shines with all its manifestations of energy, without ever having been altered or improved.  This is the characteristic principle of Dzogchen. Not understanding this may lead one to think that Dzogchen is the same as Zen or Ch'an. At heart, Zen, which without any doubt is a high and direct Buddhist teaching, is based on the principle of emptiness as explained in sutras such as the Prajnaparamita. Even though in this regard, in substance it is no different from Dzogchen, the particularity of Dzogchen lies in the direct introduction to the primordial state not as "pure emptiness" but rather as endowed with all the aspects of the self-perfection of energy. It is through applying these that one attains realization.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde 

 

It is that local mind translation of the "energy" that is being integrated (or obstructions cleared) that leads to the experiences of love, bliss, etc... that TI was describing.

[Wells]

.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

 

My quote was in response to Wells post to TI that I quoted.  It is not in response to the Jax quote from Norbu.

 

the state of self-perfection shines with all its manifestations of energy, without ever having been altered or improved.  This is the characteristic principle of Dzogchen. Not understanding this may lead one to think that Dzogchen is the same as Zen or Ch'an. At heart, Zen, which without any doubt is a high and direct Buddhist teaching, is based on the principle of emptiness as explained in sutras such as the Prajnaparamita. Even though in this regard, in substance it is no different from Dzogchen, the particularity of Dzogchen lies in the direct introduction to the primordial state not as "pure emptiness" but rather as endowed with all the aspects of the self-perfection of energy. It is through applying these that one attains realization.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde 

 

It is that local mind translation of the "energy" that is being integrated (or obstructions cleared) that leads to the experiences of love, bliss, etc... that TI was describing.

 

 

 

Whose local mind? Does a local mind exist? Local implies the opposite of nonlocal in which there is no distinction between the two.

[Jeff]

Whose local mind? Does a local mind exist? Local implies the opposite of nonlocal in which there is no distinction between the two.

 

 

Local mind is just a simplified descriptor for what you would call... "Of course it is obscured in almost everyone, but is not recognized."