Gravity Waves

[MooNiNite]

You do have a lower understanding of that experiment and also you have posted many times about the earth being flat.  It's not that I can't explain it's that I refuse to do so.

 

That's fine. I really don't expect you to be able to confirm gravity waves from that experiment, it's not even possible actually.

[MooNiNite]

Insulting? What about insulting others here by posting useless flat earth conspiracy BS as you have as of late.

 

Posting videos about flat earth on a thread called: "Is the Earth Spherical?" is an insult? 

[Apech]

That's fine. I really don't expect you to be able to confirm gravity waves from that experiment, it's not even possible actually.

 

 

You see!  What would be the point of explaining?  

[silent thunder]

I no longer find a use in spending what energy or effort I possess in engaging with persons who's only goal is to simply disagree or refute anything being said about a topic.  Contrarians are not interested in discourse, they are interested in opposition for the sake of opposition.

 

In short, don't feed the trolls.

[steve]

Did you watch any of the official announcements? These are the top officials for the National Science Foundation making these statements, not some dogmatic newspaper. (see above post.)

 

They are claiming it as proof that gravity waves are detected.

 

They recorded a laser hitting a detector at a different time than normal. This image is everything.

 

 

 

 

Nothing but two giant black holes millions of miles away could have caused the laser to hit at a detector at different time than normal. right? Indisputable proof! (Nature Science Foundation). 

 

No, anything that we do know about or don't know about can cause this. This is not good scientific method. 

 

I have not watched the official announcement.

 

I still stand by my earlier post about media (this includes PR folks on laboratory payrolls) selling more than scientific information. It's the way things are - experimentation requires funding, funding benefits from dogma and exaggeration, as do readership and ratings (and politics).

That part of the game I don't like either, but I don't let it get under my skin too much because I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

I'm not sure your conclusion "this is not good scientific method" is justified based on the information you've provided.

The problem with much of modern physics is that we are looking at things at either ridiculously small or large scales so that the methods and results must be very carefully calibrated, analyzed, and interpreted. While you certainly may have the education and understanding of the method, equipment, raw data, data analysis, and interpretation necessary to pass such judgement on this particular experiment, I won't take your word for whether this is good science or not any more than you accept theirs.

[Apech]

http://ligo.org/science/Publication-GW150914Stoch/index.php

 

http://ligo.org/science/Publication-GW150914/index.php

 

http://ligo.org/science/Publication-GW150914Astro/index.php

 

there you go guys.

[Apech]

and you might want to spend a little time going through this one before framing your questions - if any:

 

https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0122/P1500229/028/GW150914_burst.pdf

[MooNiNite]

I think these mirrors that the lasers bounce off of are fascinating. 

 

These LIGO mirrors are specially built to detect gravitational waves. They are suspended by cords in mid air to make sure that nothing but gravitational waves can cause them to wobble. 

 

 

 

As the head of LIGO points out, they don't wobble by thermal noise, sound waves, not even quantum noise. 

 

[MooNiNite]

I'm not sure your conclusion "this is not good scientific method" is justified based on the information you've provided.

The problem with much of modern physics is that we are looking at things at either ridiculously small or large scales so that the methods and results must be very carefully calibrated, analyzed, and interpreted. While you certainly may have the education and understanding of the method, equipment, raw data, data analysis, and interpretation necessary to pass such judgement on this particular experiment, I won't take your word for whether this is good science or not any more than you accept theirs.

 

Good. I would recommend doing your own research then, in order to see exactly how they "prove" the existence of gravity waves and black holes merging in far off places. Thinking for one's self is never a bad thing. 

[Marblehead]

Thinking for one's self is never a bad thing. 

True, but one must have a solid base else they will be all over the place.

 

Gravity waved and I waved back.

 

But then, there had to have been an event that caused to gravity wave.  Just like when we throw a stone into an otherwise rippleless pond.

 

Cause and effect rule.

[Silent Answers]

So, we've detected a vibration from space but it's only 1/1000th the size of a proton...

 

We were hoping for something much more obvious, but this tiny variation is all we could find.

 

Ok. Well, we need more funding and can't fail this huge project...not to mention this is a last ditch effort to prove Einstein hasn't set us back a few centuries. Let's get the math heads to work on something that's never been observed, to see what they suggest.

 

The number guys say that there's a possibility they can pin the blame on 2 black holes colliding.

 

GREAT! Gravity and black holes go hand in hand! Can we say roughly how far away they were?

 

Ah, yes...well there is some bad news, sir. If we go with this black hole idea, the nunbers say it has to have happened 1.4 billion years ago.

 

And that's the only thing we've managed to detect with all this equipment?

 

Yes

 

Alright, let's announce it with such confidence that people don't second guess these findings. Start making calls to those who have already staked their careers on gravity and relativity. They'll all be eager to publicize this to help support their own work.

 

I'll get science poster boys Tyson and Green to make a few YT videos.

[MooNiNite]

.

Edited February 18, 2016 by MooNiNite

[Karl]

Despite all the defenders here, not one has been able to say what the importance of gravity waves actually are. For all the stories about Gallileo and his discovery that the Earth orbits the Sun, we really have had no returns from that discovery either-but at least it's relatively cheap science. Hubble, voyager and Galileo satellites have produced interesting pictures and revealed some fascinating things about our neighbours, but none of them have produced anything we can actually use and the costs have been- excuse the pun- truly astronomical.

 

I'm an amateur astronomer and keen science/engineering kind of person, but it seems like these experiments are getting further from reality. We are either peering down a huge microscope or a huge telescope at the incredibly tiny or the immensely large. We can't seem to solve basic problems like cellphone coverage, computer cyber attack, economic stability, Alzheimer's disease or road congestion. In Britain we are now running the risk of power cuts ! Seriously, in a first world country we will have a power grid like an African village.

 

That's not to say we shouldn't attempt big science, but it's the zero element of usefulness and the high level of cost that concerns me. It's consuming scarce resource and producing nothing at all-from what I can understand and no one has yet managed to convince me otherwise. People moan about CEOs making millions of pounds, but they do EARN that money from their productive capacity, no one gives them millions to sit at a multi billion dollar desk thinking big thoughts.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Karl

[Apech]

Despite all the defenders here, not one has been able to say what the importance of gravity waves actually are. For all the stories about Gallileo and his discovery that the Earth orbits the Sun, we really have had no returns from that discovery either-but at least it's relatively cheap science. Hubble, voyager and Galileo satellites have produced interesting pictures and revealed some fascinating things about our neighbours, but none of them have produced anything we can actually use and the costs have been- excuse the pun- truly astronomical.

 

I'm an amateur astronomer and keen science/engineering kind of person, but it seems like these experiments are getting further from reality. We are either peering down a huge microscope or a huge telescope at the incredibly tiny or the immensely large. We can't seem to solve basic problems like cellphone coverage, computer cyber attack, economic stability, Alzheimer's disease or road congestion. In Britain we are now running the risk of power cuts ! Seriously, in a first world country we will have a power grid like an African village.

 

That's not to say we shouldn't attempt big science, but it's the zero element of usefulness and the high level of cost that concerns me. It's consuming scarce resource and producing nothing at all-from what I can understand and no one has yet managed to convince me otherwise. People moan about CEOs making millions of pounds, but they do EARN that money from their productive capacity, no one gives them millions to sit at a multi billion dollar desk thinking big thoughts.

 

Copernicus not Galileo.

 

Just a couple of points:

 

1 ) far much more money is spent on defence projects, propping up the banking system and failed government projects (eg. IT) such as to dwarf the amount spent on this experiment.

 

2 ) most cutting edge science has multiple spin offs into practical applications.

 

I think you should focus your ire elsewhere.  But of course its up to you.

[Karl]

Copernicus not Galileo.

 

Just a couple of points:

 

1 ) far much more money is spent on defence projects, propping up the banking system and failed government projects (eg. IT) such as to dwarf the amount spent on this experiment.

 

2 ) most cutting edge science has multiple spin offs into practical applications.

 

I think you should focus your ire elsewhere.  But of course its up to you.

 

Observation not ire. :-)

 

I wouldn't argue that too much is spent on defence projects, but it does have a purpose. I'm sure that if countries found themselves at the mercy of other states they wouldn't question defence spending. People hate guns until a gun is defending them.

 

I'm not sure cutting edge science does have any spin offs. The spin off appears to be more taxed public spending on ever more bizarre projects. I would rather we spent all that cash on sorting Alzheimer's than discovering gravity waves.

[Marblehead]

People hate guns until a gun is defending them.

I just wanted to repeat this.

[Apech]

I just wanted to repeat this.

 

 

Sure I'm not arguing for zero or such low defence spending that would put a country at risk - but the USA for instance spends ten times the collective amount of all developed countries (or so I am given to understand).  But it's not about the absolute amount but rather the relative amount.

 

With regard to Alzheimers ... I'm sure there's plenty of funding ... but they can't remember where they put it (sorry for this bad taste joke).

 

I think the other thing to consider is that most science boils down to a form of Physics - which is the science of sciences.  I think it was Rutherford who said all else is stamp collecting.  At heart physics asks the fundamental questions about how things work.  I see this as part of a grand project of mankind understanding this world and as such is not only beneficial in terms of discovery but also psychologically necessary or perhaps socially healthy - that we are pushing at the boundaries of knowledge all the time.  It's all very well pointing to discrepancies like 'how can we send a man to the moon when that person over there is starving' and so on - but in reality the chances are that even if we had not done so then there would still be starving people.  In fact I would say it's not a chance but a certainty.

[Marblehead]

Yep.  I am a supporter of science.  We need to observe and understand the processes that effect our life, whether directly or indirectly.

 

Sure, it would be nice if we could spend more money on the needy in order to help them become more self-sufficient.  But there are some who do not wish to be self-sufficient.  No one can help them.

 

I suppose understand gravity waves is important as it leads to a fuller understanding of what gravity really is.  Is there such a thing as a graviton?  If there is then understanding exactly what it is and what effects it has within the universe would be important.

 

I also support military and other forms of defense spending.  Science is the root of developing more efficient means of defense.

[Apech]

Yep.  I am a supporter of science.  We need to observe and understand the processes that effect our life, whether directly or indirectly.

 

Sure, it would be nice if we could spend more money on the needy in order to help them become more self-sufficient.  But there are some who do not wish to be self-sufficient.  No one can help them.

 

I suppose understand gravity waves is important as it leads to a fuller understanding of what gravity really is.  Is there such a thing as a graviton?  If there is then understanding exactly what it is and what effects it has within the universe would be important.

 

I also support military and other forms of defense spending.  Science is the root of developing more efficient means of defense.

 

 

War time is usually when the big technological breakthroughs occur e.g. radar and computers in WWII.  So there is a link.  And not necessarily a bad thing either.

 

We may have problems (the west) but still compared to the rest of the world we are freer and more advanced - and I think we should stop apologising for this and just ensure we protect our liberty.

 

And if anyone complains about this ask yourself would TheDaoBums exist in China, the middle east or anywhere else.

[Brian]

Some here might find this interesting:

http://www.techbriefs.com

[Apech]

Some here might find this interesting:

http://www.techbriefs.com

 

Power generating shoes!

[Karl]

Sure I'm not arguing for zero or such low defence spending that would put a country at risk - but the USA for instance spends ten times the collective amount of all developed countries (or so I am given to understand).  But it's not about the absolute amount but rather the relative amount.

 

With regard to Alzheimers ... I'm sure there's plenty of funding ... but they can't remember where they put it (sorry for this bad taste joke).

 

I think the other thing to consider is that most science boils down to a form of Physics - which is the science of sciences.  I think it was Rutherford who said all else is stamp collecting.  At heart physics asks the fundamental questions about how things work.  I see this as part of a grand project of mankind understanding this world and as such is not only beneficial in terms of discovery but also psychologically necessary or perhaps socially healthy - that we are pushing at the boundaries of knowledge all the time.  It's all very well pointing to discrepancies like 'how can we send a man to the moon when that person over there is starving' and so on - but in reality the chances are that even if we had not done so then there would still be starving people.  In fact I would say it's not a chance but a certainty.

 

'Grand project' :-/ says it all really.

 

This is about economics. The same malinvestment prevalent in our current economic system is transferred to science. Science should not be treated as some kind of a religious sect which must be continually fed money to do great works, it has to live in the real world. I write books, but I don't expect the world to pay me to write them just because I might one day produce a great and significant work. Science has to pay its way in the real world.

[Karl]

War time is usually when the big technological breakthroughs occur e.g. radar and computers in WWII.  So there is a link.  And not necessarily a bad thing either.

 

We may have problems (the west) but still compared to the rest of the world we are freer and more advanced - and I think we should stop apologising for this and just ensure we protect our liberty.

 

And if anyone complains about this ask yourself would TheDaoBums exist in China, the middle east or anywhere else.

 

More crap. The usual broken window fallacy. That the state funds research in one direction means that it crowds out other inventions. We would have had radar and computers without WW2 and been far more advanced had we not been destroying scarce resources at the time.

 

You only need to read the stories about the first aeroplanes. The US government paid a company to produce a practical aircraft. It spent the equivalent of millions today only to be beaten by what was basically a couple of guys in a shed with less than 7% of the cash that Langley had been awarded. The Wright brothers were privately financed as well.

[MooNiNite]

Edited February 18, 2016 by MooNiNite

[Apech]

More crap. The usual broken window fallacy. That the state funds research in one direction means that it crowds out other inventions. We would have had radar and computers without WW2 and been far more advanced had we not been destroying scarce resources at the time. You only need to read the stories about the first aeroplanes. The US government paid a company to produce a practical aircraft. It spent the equivalent of millions today only to be beaten by what was basically a couple of guys in a shed with less than 7% of the cash that Langley had been awarded. The Wright brothers were privately financed as well.

 

 

Grumpy!  You'd kill for some power generating shoes - admit it.