Best reference books for entheogens, psychotropic, hallucinogenic and poisonous plants?

[Bud Jetsun]

Some friends of mine on another forum are quite knowledgeable regarding the use and effects of various psychotropic substances. I found this thread particularly informative:

 

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4361-How-to-do-psychedelics&s=1fe241f81e121cd7b28be8ea1b4cf1a1

 

 

This advice is a bit different than my own experience. Mainly in that Salvia is nothing remotely like shrooms (nor is any plant like any other IMHO), and pure DMT is not the strongest by any means, I find it milder than many plants, particularly impure DMT that still contains a bunch of yet unidentified plant psychoactives (sometimes referred to as 'jungle spice'.) Pure DMT is neat, but the complete set of compounds the plants include offers a stronger experience IMHO. Trying jungle spice with no DMT in it is a deeper ride than pure DMT in my experience, your results may vary.

 

As humans don't understand the technology of the mind or body or plants, the best we achieve is some stumbling in the dark assigning arbitrary labels to what we bump into.

 

All that you dream of drinking will not quench your thrist.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

[Nungali]

When I hear you use the word wrecking ball that gives me the wrong impressions DB,

Like steve said, it's really a path that takes time. Building a relationship with the plants.

 

From my best meant advice that means starting in small doses and not expecting any sudden "my life for the better" changes.

There is this unhealthy culture of "breaking through" imo. Expecting "my biggest issue solved after this trip".

There is so much to be gained from getting to know plants at a low dose.<3

 

Also. Pay attention to how you treat yourself before and especially after the ceremony. Silence and integration time.

Unsafe journeying environment and not enough time to recover in peace are on the top of my "pitfall with psychedelics list".

Recovery should be in nature or out of the city.

 

Third pitfall. Work alone if you aren't 101% sure of your connections. I've gotten burned from working with western "shamans" who despite having trained with indigenous communities for many years... didn't get what it was about at all.

Most irresponsible shamans think they are doing the right thing.

Can they ride the plant or are they hiding behind ritual, sort of?

Do they seem controlling?

 

That's my condensed personal advice/exerience/whatever after working with plants for  7yrs.

 

Also growing them really adds to the relationship, depending on if you can ofc.

 

 

 

Ethnobotany is a fascinating subject !  

[ralis]

A real shaman knows he has to earn it ..... what do you think the shaman's initiation is all about ?   Encountering forces that may destroy you or rip you psychically apart, having your organs removed and eaten, having your bones removed and replaced with iron ones, how to control animal spirit possessions ,  having quartz crystal rods inserted into your chakras .... and so on, whether in real or dream states ... you think it doesnt have to be earned ???

 

Carefull there little fox ? 

 

 

 

 

It is not 'effort alone' but that doesnt mean one ignores the effort required .  What good are snow chains and ice spikes if the wheels are not turning in the first place ... it ( in your own example) is all about the correct application of effort ... in my observations, over time, and throughout many 'esoteric fields' you tend to approach you  seem to be the one spinning your tyres ....    it is a 'calling' in a way but not just  a calling . Any real path of shamanism - you will be tested and you have to earn it . 

 

Unless its some fake type of new-age ,shallow,  ego - ' shamanism ' .   Or a 'self - imagined shamanism '   (  read ; 'self - made ' ) . 

 

 

Some people just don't get how difficult and dangerous the shamanic path is. You have stated the dangers in more certain terms than I have and yet the whole New Age lies around how wonderful it is to be a shaman will still persist in many minds. E.g. the real shamans in Hawaii as told by Eliade, are given a dose of a certain poison and thrown into a pool and left for several days. If the apprentice happens to survive the initiation, then he becomes the tribal shaman. I imagine many don't survive.

[Nungali]

There is a very common misunderstanding of reverence and devotion. The cultivation of reverence and devotion have nothing to do with the object of veneration. It is all about subjugating and disassembling the ego. The other side you yearn for is what is beyond the limitation of that ego. 

 

 

Wonderful !    The whole post is good, but I want to focus on this bit ^ . 

 

'Disassembling' .... exactly  - thats why many psychic visions of the Sahamn's initiation   ( where he actually becomes a shaman) is  about the disassembling of the physical body and organs. 

 

This has nothing to do with an ego approach and entering the experience this way , one is doomed to failure.  The Shaman that successfully passes his tests and trials (initiation) will be in a type of compliant, dream like, or 'impelled' state.   Much like UFO abductees report ... they are relatively helpless and compliant.

 

How many times have you heard one of these 'abductees' claim 'Then the big one approached me with the probe. so I jumped off the table, kicked him in the nuts, grabbed the probe and .... '   

 

'That is the ego / hero  approach .... just like in the myth of Hercules; trying to navigate through  the 'Mysteries'  by taking ego with him. he failed miserably ... but this is a very popular approach with the masses ... actually so popular, the whole Hercules failure ( of his initiation into the mysteries ) story brought about the concept of  'The Lesser Mysteries ' ... a type of mystical 'best achiever award '    

 

 

 

 

 

But they do make popular heros ... I think we all know how popular the guy is that jumps off the table and snatches the probe  

 

'Yo ! Alien !  You wanna see my arse ?  Here !  Take a close look ! "

 

 

 

 

 

[  " Here's the idea Will ...  you leap off the wall and land with an elbow  between the aliens shoulder blades...  can you do that ? " 

 

 " Of course I can ...  here  -       Oh Christ  ...  my baaaack !  "     ] 

[Nungali]

I would also add that shamans are tested by NDE's, poisoning and other trials that would mean certain death to most, as discussed by Mircea Eliade. Shamans are able to communicate with and also use entheogens and other herbaceous plants as medicine, by means of underworld travel to the plant or spirit realm.

 

 

My teacher gets bitten by snakes ..... as a few people do where he lives. He insists on not getting medical treatment , he goes off into the bush alone and deals with it. he says, eventually, his body transmutes the poison and changes it into another substance which gives him certain 'powers' of that particular snake ... he has about 5 different ones so far.

 

me doing shit like that .... abso no way!     He is a 'special descendent'  (over many generations ) , a fine specimen of physic and health  ( and you should see the diet !  fish, bread, roo, coffee, turtle oil , etc     )  and his 'stuff' is intimately connected to environment and ancestors going back thousands and thousands of years and has acquired much of their accrued knowledge. 

 

I would have to be insane to think I could do what he can .  

 

(There is one snake ... I think it was  'King Brown'  that he told me, if it gets him, he won't be able to transmute the venom. he said the bite eventually puts you  into a paralysis  while you are trying to transmute it. But the snake will track you and find you and bite you again, then it wraps itself around your neck (its not a constrictor ) and if it feels a pulse it will bite you again ... and so on till it feels no pulse, then it unwraps and  goes away.    I asked him  why he thought it does that. he said 'because , out of all the snakes, it is the most  'spiritual being' ... no other snakes do that . " 

 

'Spiritual being ' !          Hmmmmm . 

[ralis]

My teacher gets bitten by snakes ..... as a few people do where he lives. He insists on not getting medical treatment , he goes off into the bush alone and deals with it. he says, eventually, his body transmutes the poison and changes it into another substance which gives him certain 'powers' of that particular snake ... he has about 5 different ones so far.

 

me doing shit like that .... abso no way!     He is a 'special descendent'  (over many generations ) , a fine specimen of physic and health  ( and you should see the diet !  fish, bread, roo, coffee, turtle oil , etc     )  and his 'stuff' is intimately connected to environment and ancestors going back thousands and thousands of years and has acquired much of their accrued knowledge. 

 

I would have to be insane to think I could do what he can .  

 

(There is one snake ... I think it was  'King Brown'  that he told me, if it gets him, he won't be able to transmute the venom. he said the bite eventually puts you  into a paralysis  while you are trying to transmute it. But the snake will track you and find you and bite you again, then it wraps itself around your neck (its not a constrictor ) and if it feels a pulse it will bite you again ... and so on till it feels no pulse, then it unwraps and  goes away.    I asked him  why he thought it does that. he said 'because , out of all the snakes, it is the most  'spiritual being' ... no other snakes do that . " 

 

'Spiritual being ' !          Hmmmmm . 

 

The 'King Brown' is one nasty snake! Eliade writes of shamans being wrapped in a blanket and thrown over a cliff as an initiation. I have no idea as to the height of said cliffs, but almost any fall onto rocks would cause major injuries and even death.

[Nungali]

Some people just don't get how difficult and dangerous the shamanic path is. You have stated the dangers in more certain terms than I have and yet the whole New Age lies around how wonderful it is to be a shaman will still persist in many minds. E.g. the real shamans in Hawaii as told by Eliade, are given a dose of a certain poison and thrown into a pool and left for several days. If the apprentice happens to survive the initiation, then he becomes the tribal shaman. I imagine many don't survive.

 

I have heard of bone caches .... where people didnt make it .  And they were not killed by white people. 

 

My large Campbell's 'Way of the Animal Powers'  has a photo of a group of young men lying in an initiation bora ring, about 30 of them, many of them have a white stick at their heads, the caption says that those ones have 'expired' .  I showed that pic to teacher and he  " Yes. "  Then he showed it to 'the boys'    ( younger men and others not initiated ) ... they were freaking out, turning away their heads and saying  "I cant / am not allowed  to look at that ! "   - but they kept turning back and looking at it, then freaking out and turning away. "  

 

Nowadays , even they say they have made things 'softer'  . 

 

 

Initiated man, Queensland;

 

[liminal_luke]

Eliade writes of shamans being wrapped in a blanket and thrown over a cliff as an initiation.

My friend Debbie used to host drum circles. She´d smudge us with sage and we´d make a lot of noise. Angel cards were read and heartfelt stories shared. A whole lot more fun, and way less dangerous, than being thrown off a cliff.

Edited January 30, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

The 'King Brown' is one nasty snake! Eliade writes of shamans being wrapped in a blanket and thrown over a cliff as an initiation. I have no idea as to the height of said cliffs, but almost any fall onto rocks would cause major injuries and even death.

 

Ummm ... that relates to the 'field of bones' I mentioned, They are at the bottom of a cliff.   It has to do with their ' 3rd degree' initiation   ( we talked a lot and compared our initiation traditions , there are remarkable similarities, both have an outer 3 degree or 3 level system relating to birth life death  - this is why I can connect so well with him, he never met an initiated white man before ...  and the more we talk about our own traditions in this area, the more we are both blown out by the similarities and comprehensions we share  )  3 is about  (well, the bridging from 3 to 4 ) death  and the triumph over death ... some dont make it ....  they are not wrapped in a blanket though. 

 

I have been given the ceremony to do,  the cliff   ( I have spied it from the top )  is so radical that sometimes wedge tailed eagles get killed there.  I have watched them wind surf alongside the cliff in the updraft, from a spot one can get to, just below the cliff edge.  Occasionally they get blown into the cliff , and with a massive effort swerve out of it, you can hear the air noise and it tears through their wings when this happens, and see them straining, I guess sometimes they smashed into the cliff, although I have never seen it.  But there are eagle bones down there.    I have to get down there  (near inaccessible rainforest )  and find the eagle bones and make a costume using them, so certain parts of the skeleton  fit over certain parts of my body, use some of the feathers,  do this ritual and perform a special dance  in the costume .... they are all preliminaries.   Anyway , enough of that . 

 

As I sit around with pain everyday ... for a year ... awaiting my new hip replacement .... I seriously doubt I will ever make it down into that spot  .......   well,  when I get really old , I might find a 'quick way' down        (better than lying around in a gerri ward ) . 

[Nungali]

My friend Debbie used to host drum circles. She´d smudge us with sage and we´d make a lot of noise. Angel cards were read and heartfelt stories shared. A whole lot more fun, and way less dangerous, than being thrown off a cliff.

 

 

Thats nice   ( and nice that the word 'shaman' didnt appear in your post )

[ralis]

Here is a New Age shaman in Santa Fe. A real money and time waster!

 

http://www.sacredshamanichealing.com/

[Nungali]

Edited January 30, 2016 by Nungali

[ralis]

Teacher -  'sharing culture  '  ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is that you on the left?

[liminal_luke]

Thats nice   ( and nice that the word 'shaman' didnt appear in your post )

Oh exactly. Nothing shamanic, in the proper sense, about what we did. Nor did it qualify any of us to hang a shingle and do any kind of healing work for the public. It´s easy to dismiss such gatherings as New Age, but to me it had value. If we´d started imbibing hallucinogenic plants, however, we´d probably have got in over our depth.

Edited January 30, 2016 by liminal_luke

[DreamBliss]

I was just thinking last night that I don't want to be the loudest voice in the room. I am a little ashamed. I know that many of the people at this forum are more experienced than myself on many of these matters. All I have is a bouquet of plastic flowers (knowledge not yet directly experienced) I haven't been able to trade in for the real thing yet. So I apologize for my harsh tone and letting my ego sneak in here. My problem is I know what I am talking about, but I haven't yet experienced much of it.

 

I'm going to come back here with some more links to books, and return to the main purpose of the thread. Going to step out of the way of everything else for now. I want to acknowledge that you all have made some very good points and I appreciate your caring, concern and feedback. Nothing you have written will fall on deaf eyes... Also Micheal I re-read what you said and I understand it now, thank you.

[Eric23]

Here you go:

http://www.amazon.com/Pharmako-Poeia-Revised-Updated-Herbcraft/dp/1556438052/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454199782&sr=1-1&keywords=dale+pendell

 

This is the first book in a set of three.  I own all three, invaluable if you are considering the poison plant path.  Highly recommend reading all three. 

[steve]

I was just thinking last night that I don't want to be the loudest voice in the room. I am a little ashamed. I know that many of the people at this forum are more experienced than myself on many of these matters. All I have is a bouquet of plastic flowers (knowledge not yet directly experienced) I haven't been able to trade in for the real thing yet. So I apologize for my harsh tone and letting my ego sneak in here. My problem is I know what I am talking about, but I haven't yet experienced much of it.

 

I'm going to come back here with some more links to books, and return to the main purpose of the thread. Going to step out of the way of everything else for now. I want to acknowledge that you all have made some very good points and I appreciate your caring, concern and feedback. Nothing you have written will fall on deaf eyes... Also Micheal I re-read what you said and I understand it now, thank you.

 

And I will stop preaching at you....

[DreamBliss]

I appreciate that Steve...
 
So I stumbled on these:
 
Indian Herbalogy of North America 
http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Herbalogy-North-America-Definitive/dp/0877736391/
 
A Handbook of Native American Herbs 
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Native-American-Herbs-Healing/dp/0877736995/
 
Any thoughts?

Edited January 31, 2016 by DreamBliss

[Michael Sternbach]

Not specifically about American Indian Herbs, as far as I am concerned. But as a general analysis and advice regarding what you are on to, please contemplate what I wrote just yesterday here.

[Michael Sternbach]

A real shaman knows he has to earn it ..... what do you think the shaman's initiation is all about ?   Encountering forces that may destroy you or rip you psychically apart, having your organs removed and eaten, having your bones removed and replaced with iron ones, how to control animal spirit possessions ,  having quartz crystal rods inserted into your chakras .... and so on, whether in real or dream states ... you think it doesnt have to be earned ???

 

Carefull there little fox ? 

 

 

 

 

It is not 'effort alone' but that doesnt mean one ignores the effort required .  What good are snow chains and ice spikes if the wheels are not turning in the first place ... it ( in your own example) is all about the correct application of effort ... in my observations, over time, and throughout many 'esoteric fields' you tend to approach you  seem to be the one spinning your tyres ....    it is a 'calling' in a way but not just  a calling . Any real path of shamanism - you will be tested and you have to earn it . 

 

Unless its some fake type of new-age ,shallow,  ego - ' shamanism ' .   Or a 'self - imagined shamanism '   (  read ; 'self - made ' ) . 

 

I agree. Counselling and healing people takes a lot of study and training. Some of this will be "learning by doing". If this is for you, you will enjoy giving the effort, So yes, it can be fun, but determination is needed. Especially every time you aspire to a yet more advanced level.

 

But, if you hear the call, by all means, follow it!

[Junko]

Human life is about to train.

[steve]

I was just thinking last night that I don't want to be the loudest voice in the room. I am a little ashamed. I know that many of the people at this forum are more experienced than myself on many of these matters. All I have is a bouquet of plastic flowers (knowledge not yet directly experienced) I haven't been able to trade in for the real thing yet. So I apologize for my harsh tone and letting my ego sneak in here. My problem is I know what I am talking about, but I haven't yet experienced much of it.

 

I'm going to come back here with some more links to books, and return to the main purpose of the thread. Going to step out of the way of everything else for now. I want to acknowledge that you all have made some very good points and I appreciate your caring, concern and feedback. Nothing you have written will fall on deaf eyes... Also Micheal I re-read what you said and I understand it now, thank you.

 

PS -  I just want to offer my opinion that this sort of self examination and action are far more important than anything one could ingest. That's the doorway to the other side, whether achieved through sobriety or intoxication. 

 

_/\_

[DreamBliss]

OK...

 

I was walking outside today, along a path we have going through a meadow, and due to all the rain we have had moss is covering everything. In the moss I noticed tiny brown mushrooms, and I realized that I have not made my intentions here very clear. I will do so now...

 

The reason I started this thread and am asking for reference materials is because I want to spend my time on the road identifying and learning about the various plants I encounter. I have no intention to try any of these plants. I would not touch those brown mushrooms outside beyond what is needed to identify them, that is the most I would do with them.

 

I want to be sure I am properly identifying things before I even consider harvesting and using them. I don't think this has much to to do with reverence or respect. I don't necessarily see myself as greater than a plant, and I certainly don't see it as greater than me. A plant is a plant, a human is a human, different forms, same energy. In reality the plant is me and I am the plant, although I have not directly experienced this connection yet.

 

I think it has to do with intelligence. No matter how desperate to escape the circumstances and situations of my life I may become, I am never going to be desperate enough to do something as stupid as to start eating plants I think are psychoactive. Whatever my intention is for using a plant, if I use one, it will be done with great care and only when I am certain I have the correct one for my purposes. I have to know with reasonable certainty.

 

Running in the background at the same time, as demonstrated by this man Nungali mentioned, will be the knowledge I have not yet directly experienced that my body is not responding to the plant and its constituents. It is responding to my belief about the plant and those things that are in it. I have said it before, the one who masters this Truth can drink battery acid and it will have no effect on him. Of course even though such a person  could do such a thing, in most cases they wouldn't. They take great care, both of themselves and others, as well as in harvesting plants, processing them and using them.

 

Going beyond that I have come to realize that I literally can not be poisoned, unless it is in one of the ranges of experiences I have chosen for my life. For more on that, read this:

https://blisswriter.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/own-your-life/

 

I guess at the root there is a respect here, but it is not the same respect a devout Christian has for God. It is hard for me to express exactly why I choose to be careful. Is it motivated by fear? By love? Just some default setting I was born with? Not sure.

 

Just take away from this that I choose to be careful. That no matter what I may be ultimately using a plant or substance for, I will do so with great care. It will influence every action I take on my journey, whether physical or otherwise.

 

I guess care taken in the process of choosing something, harvesting it and preparing it for use is my version of a ceremony. I think the energy present in this process becomes another element of the mix. I would not want careless, hateful or irresponsible energy in those things I prepare.

 

I wonder if is not so much the poison that kills a victim but the hatred of the one who poisoned them! Maybe that's the difference between a substance that is normally considered a poison, and how it can also be used as a cure, if administered out of a deep caring or love.

Edited January 31, 2016 by DreamBliss

[Nungali]

Is that you on the left?

 

Nah      Thats Uncle  Lewi  ( teacher ) with a visiting Yank 'shaman'  ; an 'adopted'  Susquehannock     .   

 

You were very quick to find that !   It was only up for a minute .   You wont find me anywhere on the internet     ... abso no way !  

 

teacher doesnt seem to mind though    <shrug > 

 

 

 

Oh boy !  he is gonna get me for that !   

 

 

I better get more serious ... might end up getting 'smacked' with a bundi !  ;

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by Nungali

[ralis]

Nah      Thats Uncle  Lewi  ( teacher ) with a visiting Yank 'shaman'  ; an 'adopted'  Susquehannock     .   

 

You were very quick to find that !   It was only up for a minute .   You wont find me anywhere on the internet     ... abso no way !  

 

teacher doesnt seem to mind though    <shrug > 

 

 

 

Oh boy !  he is gonna get me for that !   

 

 

I better get more serious ... might end up getting 'smacked' with a bundi !  ;

 

 

Would you like me to remove that photo?