Can we not love our brother as ourselves?

[Marblehead]

Well, "unjustified" killing of another human (or few) is simply called murder. But, mass murder is rebranded as "warfare" or by the Anglosphere as "police action," "liberation" or "Operation Iraqi Freedom," LMAO!!! And unpunishable and actually revered with shiny gold stars...if you win!

 

It's only "murder" or "terr0rism" if committed by "enemies" of the State?

I need speak to this. Terrorist religions has been the cause of more mass murders than any government could make claim to. And still today there are religious terrorists operating in Africa killing indiscriminately, raping women and children, use and raping boys too, all in the name of their god.

 

Yes, we Americans we lied to regarding Iraq. The majority voted in favor of going to war. We did not have a vote regarding Afghanistan and this was the only country we can justify having gone to war with. But our war wasn't against the people but rather the religious terrorist who were operating and training new people on how to be a terrorist.

 

So go ahead and call what is happening in Africa and many other parts of the world "religious cleansing" if you want but it is still murder of those who are unable to protect themselves by those who are too cowardly to pick a fight with someone who can protect themselves.

 

Same with what just happened in Paris. The cowards kill defenseless people and run away and hide. What fucking cowards!!!

 

Well, Paris got them anyhow. And saved the sixteen hostages the terrorists were going to kill before they themselves were killed.

 

I will not try to justify what my government has done in the Middle East. But that was not terrorism, that was war. And then, I will not allow anyone to attempt to justify the killing of those people in Paris either. All it did was make more problems for the peace-loving Muslims around the world.

 

At least in Iraq Saddam is not killing defenseless people who were not Sunni any more.

[Marblehead]

I,too, served in the army and felt I was doing my duty by doing so. However, that viewpoint can be taken to extremes. Indeed, it has been, by people who were "only following orders." Sometimes the true heroes are those who refuse to fight, despite the bidding of their nation. In addition, who is it that decrees who "wants to kill us." My own country illegally occupies territories, and the people who live there are indeed considered enemies of the State. Although I did not vote for the present government, I still share responsibility for its actions, seeing as I pay taxes and serve in the reserves (as a non-combatant). My nations bids me hate these people as it has decided they want to kill me, but I can't subscribe to that view and never have, despite being the victim of terrorist attacks myself.

Yes, your situation is a very difficult one. And I agree that you should not hate those who are not terrorists. Afterall, they have just as much right to live as anyone else does.

 

But your government must take a stand as there are many who would kill civilians if they had the chance. I do think Israel is in error by annexing more of the lands formerly occupied by the Palestinians because it blocks any possible future peace talks.

 

But yes, we do what we must. And I never said anything negative about those Americans who went to Canada and other countries instead of being drafted into the military and fight an unwarranted war with the Vietnamese people.

[Marblehead]

Despite them attacking you, you don't subscribe to the view that they want to kill you...

Read his words again. There is a difference between doing one's duty and hating people who you have no reason to hate. Hate and kill the terrorists but don't hate the people who just want to have a country of their own to live peacefully within.

[Marblehead]

I was hoping this would happen but I suppose that because they had hostages it was decided to "take them out" instead of capturing them.  Now others can say that the two died as martyrs.  And they will use it in very evil ways.

[Bubbles]

edited

Edited January 14, 2015 by bubbles

[C T]

Everyday i find more reasons to practice with more diligence.

[manitou]

For one to believe that being spiritual has nothing to do with politics or the way the world works, Bubbles, is to not be spiritual at all. The two cannot be separated.

[Bubbles]

edited

Edited January 14, 2015 by bubbles

[manitou]

Everyday i find more reasons to practice with more diligence.

 

Really nicely said.

[closrapexa]

But we don't live in a cartoon world where villains suck their pinky fingers and are in it for the sake of evil itself. Very often evil is born as a surplus of virtue, of a lack of doubt in one's convictions. Or, evil can be perceived as such from the other side. American "terrorists" actually won their war of independence, and it was only then that they ceased to be insurrectionists. True, it was a different time and their targeting of innocent civilians either isn't documented, didn't exist or wasn't widespread, but they were the "bad guys," depending on which side you were on.

 

I think that's the most important think, to never be completely sure that you're completely correct, to doubt your convictions as to who your enemies are and why. You ultimately may still pick up a weapon and go to war, but go with a good, healthy dose of doubt, because only then can you preserve your independence of thought.

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

[Bubbles]

edited

Edited January 14, 2015 by bubbles

[steve]

Hey. I know we worship the concept of free speech in the West. Even the Tao Te Ching would bear this out to some degree: when rules are necessary, the Tao is lost. I get it.

 

But is there no point at which human kindness can intermingle with free speech? Do we here in the West have to impose our worship of free speech on those who do not share the same value? Are we to expect that disrespectful cartoons of the prophet Mohammed should not utterly enrage the other sections of the world? Have we no brains at all?

 

We've been brought up in a society of (relatively) free speech, and social media and the 24/7 news cycle is bringing many cultures into the mesh of free speech - where we absolutely WORSHIP the right to say whatever we want to say, however disrespectful it may be to other cultures. Well, what would the Christians here in the U.S. do if an Arabic newspaper did a nice big cartoon of Jesus Christ impaled on a rocket launcher? Are we to expect that the Christians would take it in stride? Heck, no! There would be absolute cries for war and retaliation, and we would find ways to do it.

 

And how hypocritical are we, anyway? We love Free Speech when it is us speaking out or mocking others (under the guise of satire or comedy, of course); and yet, look at how many words we are "not allowed to say" here in the states. The political correctness of it all. This whole situation sickens me; our country is a mockery of free speech.

 

But at what point does human kindness and empathy play any part in this? We would not mock another's religious point of view to their face, and yet do we not have the wisdom to know that Everybody thinks 'theirs is the right way, that they have the answer?' And in a sense, we ALL have the answer. It's right within us, whether atheist, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist.

 

It is the seed planted within each of our hearts which reaches out to understand who we really are that is the commonality - and that is the Proof that there is something more. Even an atheist will go to great lengths to argue over and over that it's not in there. If that 'thing' weren't in there, why spend so much time arguing about it not being there?

 

It's just a question of where in the world we were born that determines which religious structure we had the fortune to be born into. That's all they are - structures to be transcended and the mystic identity to be found.

 

The only hope for this planet, as I see it, is for all of mankind to realize that all paths lead to the same place. Every master of any tradition I've ever read, and I've read and loved comparative religion for years, all come to the same conclusion, regardless of the contortions of the particular path he took.

 

We cannot stop this division by shoving the concept of free speech down the throats of the rest of the world. Especially when that free speech is disrespectful to that which they hold dear; to mock their religious icons by mean spiritedness hiding behind the guise of satire. It's mean. It's just plain mean.

 

The only answer is to realize that we are all Brothers and Sisters, that we are all apples on the same tree. The only thing left, it seems, is to find a way to let love in.

 

I would not be offended at all if Western leaders extended themselves, put aside our collective national ego, and made a real effort to reach out to the radical elements and countries that we have offended so many times. (Okay, I know....I can hear the hollerings of 'what about 9/11?'.) In my opinion at the time of 9/11, the wise thing to do would have been to shore up our internal defenses, and then to look for the root of the problem. To nip it in the bud, as the wise Sage would have done. Not to have gone ballistic and come out of the gate shooting at anything that moved.

 

The radical elements will not reach out to us; there has been too much damage done. Too many young men on the other side of the world have grown up under the foot of the Western soldiers, the checkpoints, the searches, the control, seeing the Allied forces controlling their every move. We've made more enemies than we ever possibly thought we could have, and now we have to rub salt into the wound with satire???

 

We are so myopic. We see ourselves, our wants and desires, our need for energy (which was probably the start of all this hostility in the early 1900's when we started pulling oil out of the ground in Saudi Arabia and were considered Infidels because we were standing on their beloved and sacred ground). Can't we for once look through the eyes of those on the other side of the equation?

 

They are our Brothers, damn it! Can we not start loving them as ourselves? Does it have to be 'us against them' from here on in? Or is there any way under heaven that we can change it with Love?

 

Beautiful post and sentiments, manitou.

War has always been with humanity and I suspect it always will be.

One possible explanation is that it is a naturally occurring phenomenon that serves to limit our population growth.

It may sound a bit off, but I think that a lot of things that lead to death or restricted reproduction are desperate attempts by the collective intelligence of the species to restore balance to our ecosystem.

Humans have so disrupted the natural homeostasis through technology that we have completely overrun large areas of the planet and smothered all competing life forms wherever and whenever possible.

We need to be controlled and are not willing to do it in a conscious manner so things like war, pollution, abuse of natural resources, unchecked genetic experimentation and modification, and so forth, will do it for us.

I don't think technology will always be able to keep up with our exploitation.

 

Your main point is very well taken.

With great freedom comes great responsibility.

When that responsibility is treated lightly and without respect, without compassion and empathy, karmic seeds are sown and eventually come to maturity as we see in the world today.

[Aetherous]

karmic seeds are sown and eventually come to maturity as we see in the world today.

 

Speaking of that, how about the murdering of (I think the count is) 16 innocent people? Now those are some karmic seeds being sown, according to Buddhism.

 

What does Buddhism say about depicting the prophet of Islam, in terms of karma?

[steve]

Speaking of that, how about the murdering of (I think the count is) 16 innocent people? Now those are some karmic seeds being sown, according to Buddhism.

They certainly are...

 

 

What does Buddhism say about depicting the prophet of Islam, in terms of karma?

I can't speak for Buddhism but I think it's pretty clear, at least to me, that satirizing the prophet of Islam leads to negative consequences rather than positive ones.

[Aetherous]

I can't speak for Buddhism but I think it's pretty clear, at least to me, that satirizing the prophet of Islam leads to negative consequences rather than positive ones.

 

Fair enough, things appear that way to you; they don't to me.

 

As long as we're clear that it isn't a Buddhist teaching on karma...but the one about murdering innocents, is.

 

(...and guys, my bad if I seem on edge about this subject. I truly am. Apologies for not being spiritual enough for some tastes...but I'm not going to change in this regard.)

Edited January 10, 2015 by Aetherous

[steve]

Fair enough, things appear that way to you; they don't to me.

Interesting, does it appear to you that positive consequences occur as a result of satirizing the prophet of Islam?

 

As long as we're clear that it isn't a Buddhist teaching on karma...but the one about murdering innocents, is.

I'm not a Buddhist teacher but karma is quite clear to me, I see it in everything.

The thing is that it is not simple or straightforward, it's infinitely complex and subtle.

But no question it is the way things are in my view.

 

(...and guys, my bad if I seem on edge about this subject. I truly am. Apologies for not being spiritual enough for some tastes...but I'm not going to change in this regard.)

I'm deeply hurt and disturbed by it as well but that doesn't mean that it is not a manifestation of cause and effect.

And don't misunderstand, karmic effects do not imply that they are somehow deserved... that's a misunderstanding of the principle.

[Aetherous]

Interesting, does it appear to you that positive consequences occur as a result of satirizing the prophet of Islam?

 

Yes. 3 of them are dead now, 1 is in custody, and the other is soon to be found. More will rise, only to fall. This is actually positive, despite the circumstances in which it happens being completely negative. I'm not happy about the scoreboard.

 

I'm not a Buddhist teacher but karma is quite clear to me, I see it in everything.

The thing is that it is not simple or straightforward, it's infinitely complex and subtle.

 

I agree that karma is infinitely complex and subtle...both of which are the opposite of thinking that terrorism is the "consequence" of satirizing Islam.

 

For instance, does it mean that the more people insult Islam, the more terror attacks there will be? Is there not a point where the attacks would level off, in order to appease public perception of Islam, or will they increase exponentially with the Islamic State's attempt at a power grab of the world? Since terrorists are always killed or imprisoned during these attacks, does that mean the number of terrorists will eventually equal out to 0 after a certain frequency of them happening? That'd be great. And all of these questions are only looking at it in simple terms, and not actually under the lens of Buddhist karma and its ripening. Not realizing that karma is infinitely complex and subtle, rather than straightforward and something we can understand.

 

I'm deeply hurt and disturbed by it as well but that doesn't mean that it is not a manifestation of cause and effect.

And don't misunderstand, karmic effects do not imply that they are somehow deserved... that's a misunderstanding of the principle.

 

Yes, it is a manifestation of cause and effect, as all things are. You're just claiming to know that the cause of terrorist acts is satire of their religion, and that the effect of satire of Islam are the deaths of innocents. It's a hypothesis, but not everyone will agree on it. Coincidentally, it's exactly what they'd want us to believe.

[shunka]

there are far too many comments to try to quote & respond. Further, rather than try to refute a person's assertions,I will try instead to make a few observations that I hope might bring some positive to the discussion:

RE Free Speech:
much of the western world does follow the precept of free speech, which in itself allows these discussions on this forum and others like it; as opposed to strict totalitarian regimes such as many Muslim Countries, Red China, North Korea, etc where even these considered dialogues could result in imprisonment or death.

As has been pointed out earlier one must exercise free speech with discernment - for example the famous example of "Crying 'Fire' in a crowded theate"r.

However, the thought of "free speech police" deciding what may or may not be "safe", "allowable", PC, etc brings chilling thoughts of the Eras of the Stazi, Gestapo, Stalin, Mao's Red Guard, etc ...
-------

MOTIVES:

Yes, There is great injustice in the world, stemming from many directions (when in doubt, follow the money). Yet "we" individuals can neither control it nor be held responsible - how can I be justifiably be held personally responsible for what William Randolf Hearst publishes, or for the corporate policies and actions of Standard Oil let alone the actions of the U.S. , Canadian, Mexican, or French Government? And Whilst it can serve great purpose to try to understand one of these terrorists individuals and their motives, it will most likely prove futile, and one may find oneself unwittingly becoming an appologist for what is nothing but a deluded person who became a psychotic murderer.

-------

I can and will decry the actions of such murderers. If by chance I am present at such an event I pray that I will have the presence of mind and courage to do what I can to prevent their actions. Should that involve violence, I will accept that burden with the knowledge that I will have considerable work to do to "deal with" that burden appropriately; If I survive I pray that I will have sufficient time in this pitiful life to do so. In any event I am certainly without a doubt that any price I may pay to stop harm from being perpetrated upon innocents will be worth it.

While I have been taught Above all Else Do No Harm, I offer further: Nor through inaction allow harm to be done (please see Tenzin Gyatso's quotes below) .

It has also been said that all that Evil needs to succeed is that a Good Person do nothing.

-------

I do have some small education in the matter of the sayings of The Prophet Mohammed. ( BTW If I recall correctly few of the entries in the Koran were by his hand, but were recorded by those around him- much in the manner of the Buddha).

It is important to remember that Mohammed himself taught that if fighting were necessary only combatants were to be engaged- not women, children, animals, innocents, non-combatants, and not even a tree in the street . Thus any fools who claim they are practicing a "holy jihad" in the name of the prophet are terribly mistaken.

An Imam with whom I was acquainted spoke publicly regarding that, and further stated that in the modern world a "holy jihad" should actually be a battle with the deamons within oneself, and that those who tried to fight a modern war in the name of the prophet were being deluded and used.

-----
RE HATE

We can and should identify and stop such criminals and murderers. It is likely and unfortunate that extreme means are required (as we saw in todays news) - but try above all else not to hate them ! The negativity both inward and outward has extra-ordinary effects and repurcussions , and will only further the problem. Hatred and Vengence fuels and continues more wars and blood-feuds than anything else. Hate begats and fuels more hatred just as Loving-Kindness can be extended and returned and extinguish hate.

Jesus said "Love Thy Enemy" -
The Dalai Lama extends Love to the Red Chinese Government and the very soldiers who drove him out of Tibet and murdered and tortured Tibetan Monks and Nuns.
We should strive to follow their examples.

------
Cause and Effect -
can be more complicated than we think. I believe it isn't just a cartoon lampoon that casued this.
Whilst Manitou offered considerable discussion, I beleive it goes further back to historic manipulations and machinations for power and money, on the part of numerous governments, power brokers, certain wealthy factions, as well as misguided maniacal religious fundamentalist extremists.

It is even worse than trying to play "what if" - trying to untangle the web of casue-and-effect in cases like this can lead one in conspiracy loops and drive one mad

------
What Would XYZ Do?

Jesus turned the other cheek; When Rome came to arrest , torture and kill him He told Peter to "put up his sword". (However he had foreknowledge of his fate and had resolved to make the sacrifice).

the Dalai Lama ( incarnation of Compassion) at a lecture in Seattle, May 2001:
Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th and current Dalai Lama made a three-day visit to Portland, Oregon during which he said:
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."

Sunday, January 18, 2009
The Dalai Lama, a lifelong champion of non-violence on Saturday candidly stated that terrorism cannot be tackled by applying the principle of ahimsa because the minds of terrorists are closed.

"It is difficult to deal with terrorism through non-violence," the Tibetan spiritual leader said delivering the Madhavrao Scindia Memorial Lecture here. He also termed terrorism as the worst kind of violence which is not carried by a few mad people but by those who are very brilliant and educated.
"They (terrorists) are very brilliant and educated...but a strong ill feeling is bred in them. Their minds are closed," the Dalai Lama said. He said that the only way to tackle terrorism is through prevention.

Remember too what the Dalai Lama previously taught:
- Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive.
- Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength.
- It is the enemy who can truly teach us to practice the virtues of compassion and tolerance.
― Dalai Lama XIV

-------------

It may be difficult to understand, but these concepts are not mutually exclusive. One can put down a dangerous savage rabid dog, not out of hatred, but out of necessity with sadness, sorrow and compassion in ones heart.

yhs
shunka

(edited to fix strange artifacts)

Edited January 10, 2015 by shunka

[steve]

Yes. 3 of them are dead now, 1 is in custody, and the other is soon to be found. More will rise, only to fall. This is actually positive, despite the circumstances in which it happens being completely negative. I'm not happy about the scoreboard.

I have to disagree here, a few dead murderers may be somewhat positive but doesn't turn this into a positive situation for me overall.

 

 

I agree that karma is infinitely complex and subtle...both of which are the opposite of thinking that terrorism is the "consequence" of satirizing Islam.

You're misunderstanding me.

 

 

 

For instance, does it mean that the more people insult Islam, the more terror attacks there will be? Is there not a point where the attacks would level off, in order to appease public perception of Islam, or will they increase exponentially with the Islamic State's attempt at a power grab of the world? Since terrorists are always killed or imprisoned during these attacks, does that mean the number of terrorists will eventually equal out to 0 after a certain frequency of them happening? That'd be great. And all of these questions are only looking at it in simple terms, and not actually under the lens of Buddhist karma and its ripening. Not realizing that karma is infinitely complex and subtle, rather than straightforward and something we can understand.

 

 

Yes, it is a manifestation of cause and effect, as all things are. You're just claiming to know that the cause of terrorist acts is satire of their religion, and that the effect of satire of Islam are the deaths of innocents. It's a hypothesis, but not everyone will agree on it. Coincidentally, it's exactly what they'd want us to believe.

Again, you misunderstand me and are misquoting me

I didn't "claim to know that the cause of terrorist acts is satire of their religion."

Certainly that is one extremely small contributing factor - if you poke a rabid skunk with your finger it's likely to get bitten.

What I said was simply that satirizing Islam is likely to lead to negative consequences and it certainly did.

Had there never been a satirical article or cartoon of Islam published by Charlie Hebdo, it's a lot less likely that their employees would have been attacked. Deny that if you like, but I don't see that getting you anywhere.

But that is a tiny piece of the puzzle.

This wanton and obscene violence would be going on with or without cartoons.

Nevertheless it is happening as a result of infinitely complex causes and effects.

[Aetherous]

I have to disagree here, a few dead murderers may be somewhat positive but doesn't turn this into a positive situation for me overall.

 

This wanton and obscene violence would be going on with or without cartoons.

 

I totally agree.

[liminal_luke]

I´m glad we have free speech and don´t want to take away anyone´s right to say things that offend. I´d be even happier though to hear more compassionate speech. People have the right to do all sorts of things that are not kind, I just wish they wouldn´t.

 

Liminal

[Marblehead]

Governments are made of power structures and people who use them, right? Most governments are evil because most people who use power are.Can we say that there are power structures that are not inherently evil? I do think so. For example, in my job, there is a power structure. It is beneficial inso far as it helps people listening to each other and structuring their talking and thinking. It is educational. No one asks them to think something in particular. They are free to think what they want, and my experience confirms this, but they have to abide by some minimal rules, and I am the one to check this. Where is the evil intent?

 

You say all religions have evil intent. What do you talking about precisely? religion is a so large word that I hardly can see what do you talking about. For eg: Let's say Buddhism is a religion. I am buddhist if I take refuge in the three jewels (Buddha, Sangha and Dharma). So I will worship Buddha, study the Dharma and apply it into my daily life and be part of a community, named Sangha. Can you point out and spell out for me where is the evil intent in the example I took and that you can develop as much as you need ?

 

Thanks!

Excellent response and challenge. Recall in my following response that I am an Atheist and an Anarchist. Also keep in mind that I separate the concepts of "religion" and "spirituality".

 

When I said "religions" I was speaking to "institutionalized religions".

 

Both religions and governments attempt to control the masses. They both create laws that we "must" comply with. They both tell us what we are to think. They both tell us only what they want us to know. They both want us to be herd animals.

 

Yes, there are many structured organizations that allow for free-thinking. And most of these organizations have leaders. But these leaders, in the most part, listen to their members. This allows for an exchange of ideas and possibly better conditions for all involved.

 

Governments and religions what your money (or your resources). And they want to keep you indebted to them. Yes, both organizations do some good things. I won't deny that. But I can give to the needy directly without three quarters of the resources being skimmed off by the fat-asses sitting in their plush offices doing nothing but telling others what they should be doing while they, themselves, write their laws so that they don't have to comply with them.

 

I have nothing against organizations that work for better conditions for the masses. And there are a great many of those. But as with many "charitable organizations", I have a problem donating to the organization when the CEO is earning a salary of over one million dollars a year. That just doesn't sound like "charity" to me.

[Marblehead]

It may sound a bit off, but I think that a lot of things that lead to death or restricted reproduction are desperate attempts by the collective intelligence of the species to restore balance to our ecosystem.

Humans have so disrupted the natural homeostasis through technology that we have completely overrun large areas of the planet and smothered all competing life forms wherever and whenever possible.

We need to be controlled and are not willing to do it in a conscious manner so things like war, pollution, abuse of natural resources, unchecked genetic experimentation and modification, and so forth, will do it for us.

I don't think technology will always be able to keep up with our exploitation.

Funny. That sounded to me like it might be a direct argument against Nietzschian thought.

[Marblehead]

Speaking of that, how about the murdering of (I think the count is) 16 innocent people? Now those are some karmic seeds being sown, according to Buddhism.

 

What does Buddhism say about depicting the prophet of Islam, in terms of karma?

Hehehe. Islam didn't exist when the Buddha was alive.

[Marblehead]

(...and guys, my bad if I seem on edge about this subject. I truly am. Apologies for not being spiritual enough for some tastes...but I'm not going to change in this regard.)

I have found no serious problems with your truths so far.