Lama Dorje

[Matt]

Edited February 7, 2009 by Matt

[gendao]

link

Actually, that sounds like a pretty honest impression and not really a "diss."

 

I also found this reply there interesting:

"When we breathe in and out the sun and moon channels are activated. This is a state of polarity. During Kunlun level one, breathing becomes less and less and eventually ceases as the sun and moon channels energetically collapse. When this occurs, the central channel activates and opens one up to a pure magnetic reality."

I was also told by a Taoist practitioner in China that the very first "level" in Taoist meditation is being able to meditate to the point where you stop breathing...and breath through your skin pores, etc instead. Basic, although very few people ever even reach this stage.

 

I also suspect a lot of the ling kong jing displays are like hypnosis. They can work, but not on everybody. Some people are just far more suggestible than others. Maybe even a lot of masters would admit this. And I think they would actually gain more believability if they included some clips of people it didn't work on just to acknowledge that. But, I guess stage hypnotists don't like showing those either, lol - so who can blame them?

 

And it doesn't mean I still don't believe in either. Just know that they exist within limits.

 

I'll watch Lama's vid tonight and if I go to his workshop, I will try to resist if he demos empty force on me just to convince myself for my own sake.

Edited September 13, 2007 by vortex

[Cameron]

I guess you can't blame him. Comments like "hiding behind the Lama title"...I don't know..honest interpretation?

 

Anyway...I'll let Smile address this more if he wants. He has more experience being in debates with MW

Edited September 13, 2007 by Cameron

[Mantra68]

I also suspect a lot of the ling kong jing displays are like hypnosis. They can work, but not on everybody. Some people are just far more suggestible than others. Maybe even a lot of masters would admit this. And I think they would actually gain more believability if they included some clips of people it didn't work on just to acknowledge that. But, I guess stage hypnotists don't like showing those either, lol - so who can blame them?

 

And it doesn't mean I still don't believe in either. Just know that they exist within limits.

 

I'll watch Lama's vid tonight and if I go to his workshop, I will try to resist if he demos empty force on me just to convince myself for my own sake.

There is no hypnosis. You are either open and receptive to this type of energy or you are not. Some students are, some are not. It all just depends on how much of your mind you are able to get out of, and become more of your bigger self.

 

If you are closed and you try to resist you will likely feel nothing. Radio off. If you are actually open and you try to resist, things become magnified.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Mantra68

[gendao]

There is no hypnosis. You are either open and receptive to this type of energy or you are not. Some students are, some are not. It all just depends on how much of your mind you are able to get out of, and become more of your bigger self.

I was using hypnosis as an analogy - not a direct comparison. Point being, both don't work to the same effect on everyone.

 

But just the fact that they can legitimately work on some proves to me that there's still something to them.

 

And as far as his titles in different traditions - that issue has already been raised and addressed here. So, it's not like no one else has wondered the same thing. I would agree that MW is a master at subtly slighting others, but everyone has their own style and I simply take that into account now whenever reading his reviews.

 

In fact, if he ever met me, I'd be interested to hear his jaded opinion just for the free drive-by psychoanalysis, lol...

Edited September 13, 2007 by vortex

[freeform]

You are either open and receptive to this type of energy or you are not. Some students are, some are not. It all just depends on how much of your mind you are able to get out of, and become more of your bigger self.

 

That's pretty much what a hypnotist would say...

 

hypnosis sounds like a separate 'thing' that someone can do - but all it is in reality is the skill to put someone into a trance (trance means different things to different people - it's basically a relaxation of the analytical mind and the actual speed of your brainwaves goes down to about 8hz or lower if it's a deep trance)... we go into trance every 90 minutes or so... we also go into trance when meditating, doing qi gong, reading a good book or watching a good film... it's a natural, daily event - nothing weird about it...

 

Once in trance, there are certain unusual effects you can have - clearing emotional trauma, making people move around by pointing at them (or making them fall to the floor) - making people stick to objects or objects to 'stick' to people - people under trance tend to just let go their habitual persona and are happy to act in funny ways... you can also hurt people physically. There is a famous example where the hypnotist says 'I'm going to touch your hand with a red hot poker', and then touches them with an ice cube - most people experience burning and then develop a blister... conversly people can also go into trance and walk over hot coals with no blistering or pain...

 

So it's silly to say there is no hypnosis - because it's all hypnosis - which doesn't necessarily mean it's 'fake' or a trick... One of the things about trance is that you have to develop a rapport with the person's unconscious - that's why his high level student falls to the floor when he tries to strike Max - because there is a huge amount of deep rapport - the student is 'open' to everything that max directs at him - and a very subtle movement of chi will have a huge effect on someone in trance and in that state of deep rapport... I'd be very pleased to be shown otherwise, but I suspect if someone with aggression and hostility towards max went to strangle him, he would not fall to the floor...

 

Oh and this kind of rapport is not built necissarily through words (you're going deeper, deeper down etc) and is often more effective when done physically - for example I learnt how to put someone into trance with a handshake - Derren Brown in some of his clips puts his hand on the other's shoulder and just at the right moment shakes it gently.

[Mantra68]

That's pretty much what a hypnotist would say...

 

hypnosis sounds like a separate 'thing' that someone can do - but all it is in reality is the skill to put someone into a trance (trance means different things to different people - it's basically a relaxation of the analytical mind and the actual speed of your brainwaves goes down to about 8hz or lower if it's a deep trance)... we go into trance every 90 minutes or so... we also go into trance when meditating, doing qi gong, reading a good book or watching a good film... it's a natural, daily event - nothing weird about it...

 

Once in trance, there are certain unusual effects you can have - clearing emotional trauma, making people move around by pointing at them (or making them fall to the floor) - making people stick to objects or objects to 'stick' to people - people under trance tend to just let go their habitual persona and are happy to act in funny ways... you can also hurt people physically. There is a famous example where the hypnotist says 'I'm going to touch your hand with a red hot poker', and then touches them with an ice cube - most people experience burning and then develop a blister... conversly people can also go into trance and walk over hot coals with no blistering or pain...

 

So it's silly to say there is no hypnosis - because it's all hypnosis - which doesn't necessarily mean it's 'fake' or a trick... One of the things about trance is that you have to develop a rapport with the person's unconscious - that's why his high level student falls to the floor when he tries to strike Max - because there is a huge amount of deep rapport - the student is 'open' to everything that max directs at him - and a very subtle movement of chi will have a huge effect on someone in trance and in that state of deep rapport... I'd be very pleased to be shown otherwise, but I suspect if someone with aggression and hostility towards max went to strangle him, he would not fall to the floor...

 

Oh and this kind of rapport is not built necissarily through words (you're going deeper, deeper down etc) and is often more effective when done physically - for example I learnt how to put someone into trance with a handshake - Derren Brown in some of his clips puts his hand on the other's shoulder and just at the right moment shakes it gently.

Let me clarify because you don't seem to understand.

 

Your meridians must be open. Your energy channels. Most of the time when Max is affecting someone they have no idea before hand what his intentions are. Sometimes he will do things behind someone and they don't know he is there, yet they are still affected.

 

Take Kan for instance, the video you see is from their first meeting. He was not a student prior to this. He was an undefeated fighter in Japan, but he was also a Chi Gung teacher for 20 years so he had opened up on his own prior to that time. Also, he doesn't speak English, so he doesn't usually know what is coming.

 

Your assessment is well thought through, but incorrect. Direct experience will show you.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Mantra68

[lino]

Standard formula for MW talking about another:

1) I and/or someone close to me already studied with X (and have more of an inside scoop than you're likely to get)

2) I like X, wish X well, X has a good heart, etc.

3) all the while subtley undermining X's credibility through various comments about X's character, often masked as benevolent psychological insights.

 

It all adds up to making MW seem in-the-know, insightful and benevolent towards X, and yet X gets discredited. Nifty.

 

You could line up every post that MW ever made about an outside teaching source, or 'competitor', detractor, and they're all like that. It's beyond predictable: it's the same thing every time.

 

The guy did it to the ultimate sacred cow, Shakyamuni...and I'm not a Buddhist at that. That really turned me off.

[freeform]

Let me clarify because you don't seem to understand.

 

Your meridians must be open. Your energy channels. Most of the time when Max is affecting someone they have no idea before hand what his intentions are. Sometimes he will do things behind someone and they don't know he is there, yet they are still affected.

 

Take Kan for instance, the video you see is from their first meeting. He was not a student prior to this. He was an undefeated fighter in Japan, but he was also a Chi Gung teacher for 20 years so he had opened up on his own prior to that time. Also, he doesn't speak English, so he doesn't usually know what is coming.

 

Your assessment is well thought through, but incorrect. Direct experience will show you.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm in no way trying to undermine the value of any of this...

 

Yes using meridians is another route to explain what happens... I know that when I relax completely, my meridians open up... they flow better, but they're also much more open to influence - doing qi gong in a relaxed state is far easier then if you were angry and stressed... no?

 

I'm assuming I have more training and experience in hypnosis and trance than you do - If that's not the case then you must have witnessed hypnotists doing very similar things as qi gong masters - sapping strength, making them fall to the floor with no cantact, creating feelings of great euphoria etc etc... And yes I have seen people being affected without even seeing what's happening... You may have the idea that hypnosis always involves a watch on a chain and a dude with a goatee and wearing a funny medalion

 

Hypnotists have no real explanation as to what actually happens - these things are just generally called 'trance phenomenon'...

 

You give Kan as an example - that part of the video was shot on their first meeting - but there is an underlying supplication evident already - I assume Kan is there of his own will, he is not stressed, angry and agitated, and he's expecting something to be demonstrated... that's a significant degree of rapport! I would like to see if Max could do it with an unwilling, skeptical participant - ofcourse if it didn't work it would be cos their meridians are closed (which would probably be true!).

 

Again this is not meant to undermine Max's abilities - he is obviously highly skilled, and I'd love to study with him. I'm just pointing out that saying 'it's not hypnosis' is misleading - I'm also not saying that it is only hypnosis because that's also misleading - if hypnosis and qi gong were maps - they both contain these seemingly magical phenomenon - ofcourse with different explanations... Hypnosis is inseparable from any internal work of any name...

Edited September 13, 2007 by freeform

[林愛偉]

Just for the record. There is no interest in a monopoly. That is a ridiculous concept. You either do the practice or you don't. He doesn't care.

 

He is just saying that when you start the Kunlun practice there is a process that should be allowed to occur (internal alchemy) for a certain period of time so that your body can safely open up according to the new energy flow. Your nervous system must adjust, your skull will change shape, and you will experience many other dramatic things. So, it is important that you don't have another practice going while this process is taking place that may counter your efforts or worse cause a bad energy mix that makes you feel ill.

 

That Michael guy is funny with his body double theory. Just because Max held back his abilities for many years doesn't mean he didn't have any. He was simply being selective as to who he showed. Now it is different because there are things that need to be done.

 

 

I was referring to MW and his worries from his students of a monopoly on cultivation.. haha

 

 

The proof is in the Pudding...

[Mantra68]

Don't get me wrong - I'm in no way trying to undermine the value of any of this...

 

Yes using meridians is another route to explain what happens... I know that when I relax completely, my meridians open up... they flow better, but they're also much more open to influence - doing qi gong in a relaxed state is far easier then if you were angry and stressed... no?

 

I'm assuming I have more training and experience in hypnosis and trance than you do - If that's not the case then you must have witnessed hypnotists doing very similar things as qi gong masters - sapping strength, making them fall to the floor with no cantact, creating feelings of great euphoria etc etc... And yes I have seen people being affected without even seeing what's happening... You may have the idea that hypnosis always involves a watch on a chain and a dude with a goatee and wearing a funny medalion

 

Hypnotists have no real explanation as to what actually happens - these things are just generally called 'trance phenomenon'...

 

You give Kan as an example - that part of the video was shot on their first meeting - but there is an underlying supplication evident already - I assume Kan is there of his own will, he is not stressed, angry and agitated, and he's expecting something to be demonstrated... that's a significant degree of rapport! I would like to see if Max could do it with an unwilling, skeptical participant - ofcourse if it didn't work it would be cos their meridians are closed (which would probably be true!).

 

Again this is not meant to undermine Max's abilities - he is obviously highly skilled, and I'd love to study with him. I'm just pointing out that saying 'it's not hypnosis' is misleading - I'm also not saying that it is only hypnosis because that's also misleading - if hypnosis and qi gong were maps - they both contain these seemingly magical phenomenon - ofcourse with different explanations... Hypnosis is inseparable from any internal work of any name...

We are probably closer to agreeing than the words allow.

 

Terms like "trance" and "hypnosis" have such a negative connotation, that I want to make sure people know that nothing is being done without people's permission. In fact, if someone is consciously aware of this type of energy being directed at them they can usually close themselves to it.

 

I have to wonder why so many people are interested in this energy being used on people who are not open to it. It implies that people are looking for power over the unwilling, and that is bullshit.

 

Max will certainly never demonstrate this. You can really mess up someone's nervous system that way. If he sees this kind of desire in you, he will teach you nothing.

 

We are trying to help people, not control them. With the proper understanding, these type of abilities can be incredibly powerful with regards to healing and releasing of blocks and awakening bliss.

 

Happy, happy, joy, joy.

 

"Know magic, shun magic."

[lino]

We are probably closer to agreeing than the words allow.

 

Terms like "trance" and "hypnosis" have such a negative connotation, that I want to make sure people know that nothing is being done without people's permission. In fact, if someone is consciously aware of this type of energy being directed at them they can usually close themselves to it.

 

I have to wonder why so many people are interested in this energy being used on people who are not open to it. It implies that people are looking for power over the unwilling, and that is bullshit.

 

Max will certainly never demonstrate this. You can really mess up someone's nervous system that way. If he sees this kind of desire in you, he will teach you nothing.

 

We are trying to help people, not control them. With the proper understanding, these type of abilities can be incredibly powerful with regards to healing and releasing of blocks and awakening bliss.

 

Happy, happy, joy, joy.

 

"Know magic, shun magic."

 

Does attaining prajna wisdom, right thinking, and right doing fall in any place in the cultivation?

Keeping the prajna wisdom, right thinking, and right doing into the next reincarnation and the following reincarnation?

[林愛偉]

Does attaining prajna wisdom, right thinking, and right doing fall in any place in the cultivation?

Keeping the prajna wisdom, right thinking, and right doing into the next reincarnation and the following reincarnation?

 

 

In any proper cultivation there should be a foundation and cultivation of proper virtue and moral.

If not, the development of powers leads to demonic influences in the mind. Not pretty.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[lino]

In any proper cultivation there should be a foundation and cultivation of proper virtue and moral.

If not, the development of powers leads to demonic influences in the mind. Not pretty.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

In a free ebook that Bill Bodri put out, it has Confucius stating that proper virtue and moral is actually one of the benefits of effective meditation. Knowing what to do that is in line with the will of Heaven clears a lot of problems.

[Cameron]

And on another note..

 

Just wanted to express my deep gratitude to Smile(Max) for telling me about Sifu Max and this practice and to Mantra/Chris for coming here and being so open answering questions.

 

See you next week!

[Mantra68]

Does attaining prajna wisdom, right thinking, and right doing fall in any place in the cultivation?

Keeping the prajna wisdom, right thinking, and right doing into the next reincarnation and the following reincarnation?

Yeah. Be good. Do your practice and you can complete your evolution in this lifetime. No need to return to this level unless you are interested in helping others evolve, like my friend Max.

[林愛偉]

Yeah. Be good. Do your practice and you can complete your evolution in this lifetime. No need to return to this level unless you are interested in helping others evolve, like my friend Max.

 

 

[lino]

Yeah. Be good. Do your practice and you can complete your evolution in this lifetime. No need to return to this level unless you are interested in helping others evolve, like my friend Max.

 

The only people that get a permanent pass out of the matrix are full fledged Buddhas. This world is getting further and further flushed down the toilet. If I take a LONG vacation and come back, I know that I'm going to be pissed. As soon as I die I want to come back ASAP but with a better poker hand

[freeform]

We are probably closer to agreeing than the words allow.

 

Terms like "trance" and "hypnosis" have such a negative connotation, that I want to make sure people know that nothing is being done without people's permission. In fact, if someone is consciously aware of this type of energy being directed at them they can usually close themselves to it.

 

I guess some people have negative connotations about 'trance' and 'hypnosis' - although some others see it as one of the most effective psychological healing modalities around...

 

I have to wonder why so many people are interested in this energy being used on people who are not open to it. It implies that people are looking for power over the unwilling, and that is bullshit.

 

As far as I can tell there are very few people interested in controlling others here at TB... And if you're suggesting that that's what I'm interested in, then you couldn't be further from the truth... again it seems the word hypnosis conjures up some personal belief system for you...

 

Also Max is into martial arts, I'm guessing some martial artists are rightly questioning if the demonstrations that are shown on the video are actually practically applicable if it came to a real life fight...

[lino]

I guess some people have negative connotations about 'trance' and 'hypnosis' - although some others see it as one of the most effective psychological healing modalities around...

As far as I can tell there are very few people interested in controlling others here at TB... And if you're suggesting that that's what I'm interested in, then you couldn't be further from the truth... again it seems the word hypnosis conjures up some personal belief system for you...

 

Also Max is into martial arts, I'm guessing some martial artists are rightly questioning if the demonstrations that are shown on the video are actually practically applicable if it came to a real life fight...

 

I rather have the foresight to avoid a fight to the point where I can see it coming years and years before. This body of mine wasn't meant for giving or receiving blows

[Mantra68]

I guess some people have negative connotations about 'trance' and 'hypnosis' - although some others see it as one of the most effective psychological healing modalities around...

As far as I can tell there are very few people interested in controlling others here at TB... And if you're suggesting that that's what I'm interested in, then you couldn't be further from the truth... again it seems the word hypnosis conjures up some personal belief system for you...

 

Also Max is into martial arts, I'm guessing some martial artists are rightly questioning if the demonstrations that are shown on the video are actually practically applicable if it came to a real life fight...

I'm not suggesting that about you, specifically, but I keep getting that question. The answer is yes, it can be applied to people who are not open. The price for doing so is that their nervous system can become severely damaged.

 

It is just a matter of cranking up the amperage.

 

Kunlun increases your nervous system's ability to handle a greater amount of energy, so as you open you will be able to handle higher levels of intensity.

 

Again, if you (not you) have the desire for this kind of power, Max will not teach you. If you ever initiate aggression and try to hurt someone with this type of energy, he will most certainly punish you.

 

He is very strict about this.

[林愛偉]

I rather have the foresight to avoid a fight to the point where I can see it coming years and years before. This body of mine wasn't meant for giving or receiving blows

 

 

 

hahahahaha

 

 

 

I'm not suggesting that about you, specifically, but I keep getting that question. The answer is yes, it can be applied to people who are not open. The price for doing so is that their nervous system can become severely damaged.

 

It is just a matter of cranking up the amperage.

 

Kunlun increases your nervous system's ability to handle a greater amount of energy, so as you open you will be able to handle higher levels of intensity.

 

Again, if you (not you) have the desire for this kind of power, Max will not teach you. If you ever initiate aggression and try to hurt someone with this type of energy, he will most certainly punish you.

 

He is very strict about this.

 

Good morals. Those who desire power most of the time will use it to hurt others.

With desire in cultivation, a thin line between proper and improper manifests.

 

With eyes, one can see the true intentions of the students.

 

A bow to Shifu Max for wise discrimination.

[VCraigP]

The answer is yes, it can be applied to people who are not open. The price for doing so is that their nervous system can become severely damaged.

 

Good direct answer on this IMO.

 

This is the kind of answer that is tiptoed around because people who ask this question from an ego driven desire for power won't believe it. Using enough force to be effective on someone who is not open is of course possible, but BAD for the receiver as well as the sender. People from the outside believe that it is all hypnosis because it cannot be demonstrated in this way. I had an encounter with a teacher who pushed people at a distance of about 10 feet. She explained that it was important to have your channels open or you could be hurt. In fact part of the purpose for the "pushing" was to help the student open the channels further by being pushed with energy.

 

An analogy which works for me is Martial practice. If I am doing chin na, hand arts on someone there is some degree of cooperation when it comes to practice. If I have a partner who is giving me 110% resistance this becomes a situation where there is no cooperation and therefore no way to explore technique. I could use 115% power against the resistance, but in the case of hand arts techniques this could result in injury to the partner's limb. Same thing with the people who claim aikido throws are always done like a dance, cooperatively. In fact if one were to stiffen up like a non aikidoka in the face of an effective joint lock/throw it is likely the technique would work and the resistor would get hurt.

 

Mantra68 isn't it also likely that attainment of this level of clarity and ability to transmit power is not compatible with the ignorant ego driven desire to use such power negatively? In other words they are mutually exclusive states?

 

 

I occurs to me that Acupuncture's effectiveness was (perhaps still is in some circles) attributed to cultural hypnosis, i.e. "that stuff only works on chinese". Seems pretty funny now. Maybe in 30 years such conversations as these will be unneccesary due to wider acceptance of the supernormal.

 

Craig

[Mantra68]

Mantra68 isn't it also likely that attainment of this level of clarity and ability to transmit power is not compatible with the ignorant ego driven desire to use such power negatively? In other words they are mutually exclusive states?

I occurs to me that Acupuncture's effectiveness was (perhaps still is in some circles) attributed to cultural hypnosis, i.e. "that stuff only works on chinese". Seems pretty funny now. Maybe in 30 years such conversations as these will be unneccesary due to wider acceptance of the supernormal.

 

Craig

Let's just say that if you ever attain a functional level of ability, it will be because you have spent much time in the higher realms. You should by then understand the connectedness of all things and know that to harm another, really negatively affects you.

 

Being more of a lover than a fighter these days, I have found that the dual cultivation of Tantra with a partner is a much better way to share this energy.

 

The levels you can attain are simply out of this world.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Mantra68

[Matt]

Edited February 7, 2009 by Matt