Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body?

[ralis]

However the phenomena you are listing here are nothing but nyams and mundane siddhis... none of that is the "extraordinary cognition" that Dzogchen is concerned with. The only extraordinary cognition or knowledge that Dzogchen is concerned with is vidyā.

 

The OP ZOOM may not know what vidyā is so why not elaborate from your own practice?

[goldisheavy]

Thinking there is not someone out there who experiences victimhood is also a form of grasping. This is why a balance of the conventional and ultimate is important.

 

The first sentence is a valid example of grasping.

 

However, "balance" or clinging to the middle, is also grasping.

[goldisheavy]

This sounds not very believable to me.

 

Yea, all extraordinary cognitions are naturally hard to believe. That's expected. That's why they're called extraordinary to indicate that fact from the POV of convention. However, someone whose mind has been released from self-imposed contraints may constantly experience what we could consider strange, but from the subjective POV of a released mind it becomes normal, and then our self-limited condition becomes the strange one and the one that's hard to believe.

 

In other words, what is hard to believe depends on what you're used to and what you expect to happen.

Edited July 22, 2014 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Yes, it is only the start. The purpose of togal is to get you used to dissolving the visions, letting go of them and releasing them. And, realizing that your heart is creating these visions, you are manifesting your own visions. The vision of this reality is no different from the other realities that manifest. Sometimes you can't tell the difference. I think being able to use your conscious mind and control what you manifest, as you say, must be the pinnacle of the art.

 

I agree 100%. But to relax in togal one needs to have a very refined understanding of "the view." So in a sense, some conceptual training is completely unavoidable. Without conceptual training one is stuck discriminating the visions as if the visions were actual objects or imputing necessariness as a quality on top of what are actually optional relations. So, "this comes from that" is an optional relation like "The egg comes from a chicken." But we tend to make it necessary. Then we say "the egg only comes from a chicken and not from a cow." This way we restrict the way our heart can move and we lose our ability to perform magic. So the loss of freedom comes from reading necessariness into something that is in truth just one possible way.

Edited July 22, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

This sounds rather like a simple experience of micropsy to me...

It is the experience of becoming a stream enterer.

Before the experience I had spent an hour in the bush, meditating from the heart. Then I spent 1/2 hour moving my sight every half second and loving every leaf, branch and beautiful scene, not giving the conceptual mind enough time to grasp.. It was pure delight.

 

Later, about 1/2 an hour, I had to go shopping for food. When I walked into the supermarket, the whole world dissolved.

 

The principle behind the practice is that when you first look at an image, scene or object, it takes a second or two to grasp. If you don't give the mind enough time to grasp by changing your field of perception, and add a little love (which really stops the mind), you can stay in a non conceptual state for a long time. But beware, you don't want to be driving a car or doing something dangerous when the world dissolves away.

 

Actually, the world exists in a little bubble. Your past lives exist in little bubbles that are found around the navel. Dreams are also little bubbles and they pop when you burst them. You can actually hear them pop once you realize that you are in the dream and then quit grasping at them. Pop, pop, pop,... Tiny little pops.. Bubbles and pops.. That is the reality of it. Those are good meditations...

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[goldisheavy]

It is the experience of becoming a stream enterer.

Before the experience I had spent an hour in the bush, meditating from the heart. Then I spent 1/2 hour moving my sight every half second and loving every leaf, branch and beautiful scene, not giving the conceptual mind enough time to grasp.. It was pure delight.

 

Later, about 1/2 an hour, I had to go shopping for food. When I walked into the supermarket, the whole world dissolved.

 

The principle behind the practice is that when you first look at an image, scene or object, it takes a second or two to grasp. If you don't give the mind enough time to grasp by changing your field of perception, and add a little love (which really stops the mind), you can stay in a non conceptual state for a long time. But beware, you don't want to be driving a car or doing something dangerous when the world dissolves away.

 

Actually, the world exists in a little bubble. Your past lives exist in little bubbles that are found around the navel. Dreams are also little bubbles and they pop when you burst them. You can actually hear them pop once you realize that you are in the dream and then quit grasping at them. Pop, pop, pop,... Tiny little pops.. Bubbles and pops.. That is the reality of it. Those are good meditations...

 

These descriptions of an experience, and meditative technique, are excellent and I am glad you're sharing these with people so that they can try this if they are inspired.

 

However, stream entry doesn't have an associated experience. Experiences are not sufficient basis for interpretation of anything because experiences themselves are interpretative by their nature.

 

Your description of the bubbles is not a description of actuality, but one very cool way of how to structure experience.

 

Grasping is stranger than what you describe. Grasping is simply a certain kind of expectation that we approach all experience with. This expectation exists before any specific experience can happen. It doesn't arise 1 second later. However, when you move your vision around like this, this does create a flow of experience that is not as expected, this then allows you to recognize your expectation and relax it. So it's a good technique, but you shouldn't assume from this technique that grasping is something so late! 1 second is too late. If grasping was delayed by this much, then we would only be grasping things in the past, and there'd be periods of non-grasping, etc. It would be weird. Grasping is just an expectation and as such, this expectation is constant and unwavering in ordinary beings. So it's never late, and under ordinary conditions it doesn't have periods of being absent, although it may be slightly more relaxed at times, but not absent only to start up 1 second later.

 

The gist of what I am saying is that your experiences I think are very helpful and so are your techniques, but you shouldn't be in a hurry with your conclusions about what they imply.

Edited July 23, 2014 by goldisheavy

[BaguaKicksAss]

It is the experience of becoming a stream enterer.

Before the experience I had spent an hour in the bush, meditating from the heart. Then I spent 1/2 hour moving my sight every half second and loving every leaf, branch and beautiful scene, not giving the conceptual mind enough time to grasp.. It was pure delight.

 

Later, about 1/2 an hour, I had to go shopping for food. When I walked into the supermarket, the whole world dissolved.

 

The principle behind the practice is that when you first look at an image, scene or object, it takes a second or two to grasp. If you don't give the mind enough time to grasp by changing your field of perception, and add a little love (which really stops the mind), you can stay in a non conceptual state for a long time. But beware, you don't want to be driving a car or doing something dangerous when the world dissolves away.

 

Actually, the world exists in a little bubble. Your past lives exist in little bubbles that are found around the navel. Dreams are also little bubbles and they pop when you burst them. You can actually hear them pop once you realize that you are in the dream and then quit grasping at them. Pop, pop, pop,... Tiny little pops.. Bubbles and pops.. That is the reality of it. Those are good meditations...

 

That saying, about popping soemone's bubble .

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

These descriptions of an experience, and meditative technique, are excellent and I am glad you're sharing these with people so that they can try this if they are inspired.

 

However, stream entry doesn't have an associated experience. Experiences are not sufficient basis for interpretation of anything because experiences themselves are interpretative by their nature.

 

Your description of the bubbles is not a description of actuality, but one very cool way of how to structure experience.

 

Grasping is stranger than what you describe. Grasping is simply a certain kind of expectation that we approach all experience with. This expectation exists before any specific experience can happen. It doesn't arise 1 second later. However, when you move your vision around like this, this does create a flow of experience that is not as expected, this then allows you to recognize your expectation and relax it. So it's a good technique, but you shouldn't assume from this technique that grasping is something so late! 1 second is too late. If grasping was delayed by this much, then we would only be grasping things in the past, and there'd be periods of non-grasping, etc. It would be weird. Grasping is just an expectation and as such, this expectation is constant and unwavering in ordinary beings. So it's never late, and under ordinary conditions it doesn't have periods of being absent, although it may be slightly more relaxed at times, but not absent only to start up 1 second later.

 

The gist of what I am saying is that your experiences I think are very helpful and so are your techniques, but you shouldn't be in a hurry with your conclusions about what they imply.

I think you are right about the grasping when it comes to mind only grasping. With just my conceptual mind, I can recognize many objects in a second. But factor in the love. Now maybe this may sound corny, but have you ever noticed how time slows down when you are with someone you love? I believe the expression is "time stood still". The intellect needs time to function, but the heart is much faster.

 

Oh, they are not my techniques. Tulku Urgyen talks about he very first instance when you turn your attention inwards. Eckhart Tolle talks about he very first moment of perception, even as a practice. I just combined them with love. But you must truly love what you are perceiving. It won't work if you turn it into a mind game.

 

Yes, grasping goes much deeper, as in grasping at the self... Which is why it is the selfless love that is important. Pure selfless love will dissolve the self in an instant.

[idiot_stimpy]

The mind is still grasping if it is seeking rainbow body.

[MooNiNite]

Excuse me, I should add that this experience (which lasted several days) was the result of an intense meditation practice

 

This will happen a lot.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[goldisheavy]

The mind is still grasping if it is seeking rainbow body.

 

When the mind seeks to experience a greater degree of freedom, that's not grasping. That's striving, but it's a "correct" striving. Eventually even this striving is abandoned when you actualize the freedom (the same way you no longer strive to get home after you arrive home and relax on your couch).

 

It's not wrong or bad to seek the rainbow body.

[goldisheavy]

According to your meditation practice you are still too fixated on phenomena so any significant development won't occur.

If you want to achieve significant development and to experience the Clear Light, you should rather concentrate on meditating on the source of your awareness.

 

I disagree with this assessment. I think Tibetan_Ice is doing just fine.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

If I understand Jackson right,

then the practice is rather about "recalling" your mental energy from mental content

than "dissolving" mental content.

Either way, it isn't the Dzogchen view he purports it to be. Neither recalling nor dissolving thought have anything to do with the definitive view of Dzogpachenpo.

 

Better to seek instruction from a qualified teacher.

[goldisheavy]

For me he is proof that having a lama or having read many books is insignificant

if someone lacks the ability to understand the essence of a spiritual system.

 

I agree with your conclusion, but I don't see how Tibetan_Ice's descriptions of his experiences prove anything.

[goldisheavy]

Either way, it isn't the Dzogchen view he purports it to be. Neither recalling nor dissolving thought have anything to do with the definitive view of Dzogpachenpo.

 

Better to seek instruction from a qualified teacher.

 

Who decides on qualifications?

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

According to your meditation practice you are still too fixated on phenomena so any significant development won't occur.

If you want to achieve significant development and to experience the Clear Light, you should rather concentrate on meditating on the source of your awareness.

 

That really makes me laugh.. Ha ha ha

What makes think that that is my only practice? I've been meditating and into spirituality for over 42 years.

Further, I have traced awareness. There is one form of awareness that is everywhere, all pervasive. There is another awareness that is the focal point which the mind uses to focus. The other awareness, the clear light is also all-pervasive but there is a large pool of it in the heart. When it comes out of the eyes through the Kati channel, it resembles a shower of luminous water in slow motion. It is activated with love, boddhicitta. It is pure bliss, silent, feels sacred, and is the deepest most profound discovery you will ever make. When it comes out, you are everything, it feels like you are the trees, you are the grass, the sky... Everything! It is pure clarity, awareness, luminous and sacred.

 

So don't be so quick to pass judgement..

[Tibetan_Ice]

Either way, it isn't the Dzogchen view he purports it to be. Neither recalling nor dissolving thought have anything to do with the definitive view of Dzogpachenpo.

 

Better to seek instruction from a qualified teacher.

The view is precisely that, a view. You rely on the view until finally your experience causes your view to be cast aside and become replaced with true knowledge. That is when the change occurs.

 

One Dzogchen pith instruction to realize the natural state is to look back at a thought, wait until it dissolves, and then remain there. It is important to distinguish between the view and the pith instructions, or preliminary practices.

[asunthatneversets]

 

Who decides on qualifications?

The Dzogchen tantras set out guidelines and define a qualified teacher quite specifically. Teachers are to be evaluated and examined closely... it is said an unexamined teacher is to be avoided at all costs.

[asunthatneversets]

The view is precisely that, a view. You rely on the view until finally your experience causes your view to be cast aside and become replaced with true knowledge. That is when the change occurs.

 

One Dzogchen pith instruction to realize the natural state is to look back at a thought, wait until it dissolves, and then remain there. It is important to distinguish between the view and the pith instructions, or preliminary practices.

With Dzogchen, the definitive view [lta ba] is the true knowledge. Direct knowledge of dharmatā.

 

The practice you are referencing with thought is not meant to watch thought dissolving.

Edited July 23, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[Tibetan_Ice]

With Dzogchen, the definitive view [lta ba] is the true knowledge. Direct knowledge of dharmatā.

 

The practice you are referencing with thought is not meant to watch thought dissolving.

From Lopon Tenzin Namdak's http://www.amazon.com/Essence-Khandro-Yongdzin-Tenzin-Rinpoche/dp/8170262828

 

When you look towards a thought, the thought itself disappears. Who is watching the thought disappears at the same time. After everything has disappeared, your experience and presence are quit clear, and this means that this state is not like unconsciousness. It says that here that this clarity is like a shining sun - there is no need to add anything else, it is self-clear to the practitioner.

 

...

 

After thoughts have been liberated, remain in that state, and this is meditation. There is no object, there is no subject. In Dzogchen' meditation means not thinking. Just leave it as it is. As long as you abide in that State, that is pure meditation.

 

 

From http://www.amazon.com/Pointing-Out-Nature-Mind-Instructions/dp/0983407401

 

 

Rather, directly look at the thought itself. The moment you look directly at the thought itself' the thought dissolves and merges into the nature of mind. That is an essential method of practice in Dzogchen.

 

Dudjom Lingpa: from Alan Wallace's' Stilling the Mind'

 

When you settle into a spaciousness in which there is no cogitation or referent of the attention, all phenomena become manifest, for the power of awareness is unimpeded. Thoughts merge with their objects, disappearing as they become nondual with those objects, and they dissolve. Since not a single one has an objective referent, they are not thoughts of sentient beings; instead, the mind is transformed into wisdom, the power of awareness is transformed, and stability is achieved there. Understand this to be like water that is clear of sediment.

 

 

From https://kindle.amazon.com/work/the-practice-of-dzogchen-anthology-ebook/B000ATNA6C/B0042JTB6O

 

Method of Contemplation (i) Contemplation in (the state of) unwaveringness and non-conceptualization . 100a/6In the sky-like Mind, by letting the thoughts of the mental events remain naturally (Rang-Sor bZhag), they dissolve (Dengs-Pa) like clouds disappearing (in the sky). One should contemplate in the state of that view, the nature of the example (the sky), without wavering. (ii) Contemplation in clearness and clarity without pollutions. 100b/3Contemplate with clarity in the state which is unpolluted by concepts of apprehender and apprehended and in clarity without torpor and in calmness without elation, like a peaceful ocean, that remains where it is. (iii) Contemplation without partiality, like space. 100b/6Contemplate in the state of the Mind, which is emptiness from its origin like space, without projections and withdrawals of thoughts. (iv) Contemplating naturally and effortlessly. 101a/3Contemplate on the mind in the state of changelessness like Mt. Meru, without (any concept of) preventing or defending and expectation or doubt. (v) Contemplation of the objects of appearances without ceasing. 101/a6In the state of purity and clarity of mind, contemplate on the objects of appearances (which appear) before the senses, vividly without concepts of apprehending or wavering. (vi) Contemplation in the originally liberated clarity and purity. 101b/3Contemplate in the vivid clarity and purity without torpor or elation .... Contemplating thus, one will realize the appearances as emptiness, like rainbow lights. (vii) Contemplation in one-pointedness like an archer. 101b/6Contemplate on the mind in the state of ultimate nature, nakedly and straight, without wavering, like aiming an arrow straight.

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[asunthatneversets]

From Lopon Tenzin Namdak's http://www.amazon.com/Essence-Khandro-Yongdzin-Tenzin-Rinpoche/dp/8170262828

That is quite different than thought merely dissolving. The chain of thought must be completely uprooted through recognizing its nature, otherwise that method has not worked.

[goldisheavy]

The Dzogchen tantras set out guidelines and define a qualified teacher quite specifically. Teachers are to be evaluated and examined closely... it is said an unexamined teacher is to be avoided at all costs.

 

And who qualifies the tantras as worthy? You're just postponing the question instead of answering it.