Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body?

[steve]

Buddhism "worked" in Tibet because Padmasambhava blended it ingeniously with the already existing tibetan religion and culture into an unique hybrid.

Maybe we can expect that the tibetan lamas should do the same for us westerners.

If we want to be able to reach Buddhahood while having to live our western lifestyle to survive in our society,

we can't live at the same time a traditional tibetan master-student relationship with the lamas so they give us after 10 years of living together and serving the lama finally some of the real training secrets.

The lamas seem to adapt their teaching to our lifestyle with their internet radio podcasts and their books, but in fact those students who try to learn that way are seen as outdoor-students by the lamas and obviously only get preliminary teachings that way, if at all!

Not true with all lamas - there are those who are doing exactly what you are asking for, and quite effectively.

One problem is that when the methods are presented in this way, many folks criticize and dismiss them as being "watered down."

If you look at the history of Buddhism in Tibet, it's not as simple as you portray it.

The indigenous religion, Bön, was looked at as archaic, Bönpos were shunned, temples and teachings were destroyed...

I don't think it was any individual that blended Buddhism and the indigenous culture, I suspect it was at the people who did it over a long period of time and in the face of much adversity.

[steve]

I want to add that Tibetan Buddhism or to be more precise, Lamaism, is a patriarchal i.e, top down religion. The venerated/worshiped Padmasambhava is responsible for destroying Shamanism i.e, Bon in ancient Tibet.

Didn't quite destroy it but certainly tried!

[steve]

There are many misconceptions in regards to Tibetan Buddhism. It is important to remember that Tibet was a theocratic feudalistic culture. The teachings are still based on that authoritarian view. Most of the teachers with few exceptions sit on a throne with everyone below. That in itself should be a reminder of how things really are.

 

Most of the Lama's that are teaching in the West do it for money which supports their monasteries.

 

Donald Lopez clears up many mistaken ideas about Tibet. http://www.amazon.com/Prisoners-Shangri--Tibetan-Buddhism-West/dp/0226493113/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405878413&sr=1-5&keywords=donald+lopez

What isn't done for money in the West?

There is no other way to support a monastery.

This is the way things are done here.

 

If I was an accomplished Dzogchen teacher then I would see it as my responsibility to lead as many individuals as possible (no matter if easterner or westerner, as we all possess the Buddha Nature) to Buddhahood.

That is exactly how the lamas that I've met feel.

 

Everybody who wants to develop spiritually deserves to get the complete knowledge he/she needs to be able to train efficiently and to achieve Buddhahood.

Deserves?

Lots of things happen in life that people neither want nor deserve - premature death, disfigurement, rape, bankruptcy... And lots of undeserving people get way more than they deserve - unethical bankers and insurance executives, thieves, politicians... You are welcome to hold on to your desires and attachments to what should and shouldn't be but they are just judgements and they won't get you far. The good news is that the opportunity is there, the teachings have been made public - it is a matter of an individual's karma as to whether or not they will get the teachings and put them into action in their lives.

 

 

The teachings are fine. Remove the authoritarianism, patriarchy, thrones, robes, secret teachings and other unnecessary exotic bullshit! I hope that is clear enough.

More judgement based on your personal preferences, experiences, objections, etc...

The trappings of the religion are anathema to some and supportive to others.

They are not going away overnight whether you want them to or not, why struggle?

If they are not to your liking, leave it be.

With an iPad and broadband connection you have access to the teachings totally stripped down of all the trappings right now.

Take them as they are and enjoy.

And there are programs that offer the teachings completely devoid of the religious trappings - everything you need.

You just need to look for it.

But then the criticism will be - they are watered down!

LOL

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[steve]

Please link to a concrete practical instruction on Trekchö.

This should already be impossible for you, but please also which is without cryptic mumbo-jumbo and which everybody can understand and use to begin the practice immedeately!

 

Here are several resources:

 

http://www.ligmincha.org/en/programs/internet-teachings-podcast.html

 

This page links to an enormous wealth of information on a variety of subjects, most dealing with Trekchö, taught with relatively little mumbo-jumbo, completely free, and as effective as you are willing to commit to time and sincerity in your practice. Oh, and they are taught in a way that is immediately personal and accessible to Westerners.

 

The core of the practices is focusing on the inner refuge - this is Trekchö, finding that within us which is unborn, unceasing, indestructible, not subject to karma, etc... It is there and can be accessed and can be an enormous source of stability, inspiration, creativity, and liberation. It may not be what you expect and have been led to believe. Don't let your expectations be a distraction.

 

There is a series of videos called "The Gift of Inner Refuge" about halfway down the page that is a good place to start but you could start anywhere. The 2 most recent video clips are from a 3 week retreat which focused on a core text from the Bön Dzogchen teachings called the 21 Nails. This teachings gives 21 different pith instructions that approach the Nature of Mind from different perspectives. While these 2 video clips are relatively short excerpts and guided practices, they give a bit of the flavor of the teaching style.

 

In addition, there are many paid programs that get more in depth and direct, personal instruction is available if you want personal transmission. He is an amazing teacher and the methods are the real deal.

 

Another good resource that gives basic introduction to the Inner Refuge practice is his book Awakening the Luminous Mind - it is completely secular.

[ralis]

On the contrary, conventions are still allowed to be conventions and serve the purposes they always have. Likewise appearances are still appearances. The only difference in the realized person is the presence of a valid cognition, whereas the unrealized person's cognition is afflicted. So conventions and appearances are still just as they were, the only difference in the realized individual is that they are known correctly. No need for them to fall by the wayside, that sounds like a recipe for a nice mix of nihilism and essentialism all wrapped up together.

 

As for the cultural conventions, they too are just conventions. It's one thing if ralis wants to run around swinging at mirages with a stick, but don't hold it against others when they don't care to join in.

 

Not sure what teachings you're going to but any that I've ever attended involved the possibility to ask questions afterwards, whether privately or in a collective setting.

 

You keep talking about appearances being an illusion etc. Tell that to the children who are being slaughtered in Gaza that their deaths are only an illusion. Rarely do I see a Buddhist protesting violence such as what is happening in Gaza at this moment.

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/21/gaza-fighting-unabated.html

[BaguaKicksAss]

Oooohhh dream yoga

[BaguaKicksAss]

ZOOM, I'm curious how come you are interested in Trekchö in particular, over and above the various other teachings/practices from these particular paths?

[steve]

Oooohhh dream yoga

 

Dream yoga is intense!

I've been working on it for about 6 months.

It takes a lot of dedication but it works...

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Dzogchen has in fact only one main practice and that's Trekchö which leads to Tögal which leads to Rainbow Body & Buddhahood.

All the other stuff are only preliminary exercises which in themselves lead to no attainment.

 

You seem to have a fairly rigid idea of what tregchö constitutes or represents.

 

At any rate, saying preliminaries lead to no attainment is like saying the foundation of a house doesn't lead to the construction of a house... you can of course try to build a house with no foundation, but you can probably understand why that would be a bad idea.

[steve]

All the other stuff are only preliminary exercises which in themselves lead to no attainment.

 

And the Dzogchen masters practice these preliminaries until the day they die with complete devotion and commitment - there is a good reason for that.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[BaguaKicksAss]

Dzogchen has in fact only one main practice and that's Trekchö which leads to Tögal which leads to Rainbow Body & Buddhahood.

All the other stuff are only preliminary exercises which in themselves lead to no attainment.

 

Personally I think that more awesome today than I was yesterday, is attainment.. but I get what you mean.... be all end all actually does it, sort of attainment.

 

Soooo what are Trekchö and Tögal from your perspective? And what do they do? The various wikis aren't helping .

[BaguaKicksAss]

And the Dzogchen masters practice these preliminaries until the day they die with complete devotion and commitment - there is a good reason for that.

 

Is that sorta kinda like even Bagua masters still practice circle walking until the day they die?

[asunthatneversets]

This picture applies to Tummo as the foundation in Tantra,

but not in Dzogchen.

 

You are unfortunately misinformed and incorrect. Tummo is also completely unrelated to anything we are discussing.

[steve]

I just listened to the complete part 1 of "The Gift of Inner Refuge" and almost halfway through part 1 of "The 21 Nails".

To make sure that I understand you right:

In your opinion, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is teaching Trekchö in those videos?

 

Yes

[steve]

Is that sorta kinda like even Bagua masters still practice circle walking until the day they die?

 

Sorta kinda...

In Bagua the circle waking is the basic foundation physically and energetically.

In Dzogchen, the preliminaries help establish the view and the necessary devotion.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Sorta kinda...

In Bagua the circle waking is the basic foundation physically and energetically.

In Dzogchen, the preliminaries help establish the view and the necessary devotion.

 

Still sounds the same .

 

Also, over the years, the circle walking gets deeper and deeper and more can come from it.

 

I have this personal theory (though don't yet know if it is true) that one could reach the highest levels of any particular practice by only doing the first year of work/main principals of that practice (as long as said first year of teachings are legit and actual principals).

[steve]

Dzogchen has in fact only one main practice and that's Trekchö which leads to Tögal which leads to Rainbow Body & Buddhahood.

All the other stuff are only preliminary exercises which in themselves lead to no attainment.

 

PS - treckchö doesn't lead to thödgal, it just sets the stage. Thödgal is developed through very specific practices but stability in treckchö must come first. Same with jalü - it does not follow from thödgal (many practice thödgal and few are thought to achieve jalü), but thödgal must come first then there is an opportunity to work toward jalü.

[steve]

Still sounds the same .

 

Also, over the years, the circle walking gets deeper and deeper and more can come from it.

 

I have this personal theory (though don't yet know if it is true) that one could reach the highest levels of any particular practice by only doing the first year of work/main principals of that practice (as long as said first year of teachings are legit and actual principals).

 

Pretty good theory - I think there's a very high likelihood that this would work in the martial arts as well as meditative arts. The other ingredient is the quality, devotion, and commitment of the student....

- you could probably do it!

[BaguaKicksAss]

Pretty good theory - I think there's a very high likelihood that this would work in the martial arts as well as meditative arts. The other ingredient is the quality, devotion, and commitment of the student....

- you could probably do it!

 

I think it would work with magic too . And hell jewelry making for that matter.

 

Well with devotion and etc. of the student, if that isn't there all those beyond first year teachings won't help any I don't think...

 

For example, some paths with herbal magic and herbs used for healing... for the first year the student gets to know *one* plant. That is it, that is all. Perhaps 2 years on that plant. Then moves onto the next plant. Wow, I could only imagine the power and ability of such a practitioner! Or imagine, someone who spent 20 or 30, or 40 years with just one plant, which helped with many diverse things!

 

From what I have seen and experienced, teachers really badly want students to succeed, so they give them the best they can give them as early on as the student is able (even in the hidden stuff paths), because students often move on to another path, or scrap the practices all together, so you want to leave them with the best you can to last them a lifetime if need be. What is you never see that student again? At least give them some stuff which will help them for years or perhaps decades to come. So I feel a LOT is given in that very first year. It always seems really simple, and often boring, but the first year things tend to hold a lot in them, imo.

 

Now sticking with only the first year practices of something is not something I have ever done lol, but I'm going to at least keep circle walking forever . Fortunately I do still practice the first year stuff with each path.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Here are several resources:

 

http://www.ligmincha.org/en/programs/internet-teachings-podcast.html

 

This page links to an enormous wealth of information on a variety of subjects, most dealing with Trekchö, taught with relatively little mumbo-jumbo, completely free, and as effective as you are willing to commit to time and sincerity in your practice. Oh, and they are taught in a way that is immediately personal and accessible to Westerners.

 

The core of the practices is focusing on the inner refuge - this is Trekchö, finding that within us which is unborn, unceasing, indestructible, not subject to karma, etc... It is there and can be accessed and can be an enormous source of stability, inspiration, creativity, and liberation. It may not be what you expect and have been led to believe. Don't let your expectations be a distraction.

 

There is a series of videos called "The Gift of Inner Refuge" about halfway down the page that is a good place to start but you could start anywhere. The 2 most recent video clips are from a 3 week retreat which focused on a core text from the Bön Dzogchen teachings called the 21 Nails. This teachings gives 21 different pith instructions that approach the Nature of Mind from different perspectives. While these 2 video clips are relatively short excerpts and guided practices, they give a bit of the flavor of the teaching style.

 

In addition, there are many paid programs that get more in depth and direct, personal instruction is available if you want personal transmission. He is an amazing teacher and the methods are the real deal.

 

Another good resource that gives basic introduction to the Inner Refuge practice is his book Awakening the Luminous Mind - it is completely secular.

 

$350!!!!

 

I thought we were talking about free (or low cost resources) darn!

 

Edit: found it for a bit less than that somewhere Will give my review in a few weeks .

Edited July 21, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[steve]

So I feel a LOT is given in that very first year. It always seems really simple, and often boring, but the first year things tend to hold a lot in them, imo.

You are definitely on to something there.

And it's not just that a lot is given but what is given is of immense value, and often underestimated by the student because it's not sexy enough...

 

 

Now sticking with only the first year practices of something is not something I have ever done lol, but I'm going to at least keep circle walking forever . Fortunately I do still practice the first year stuff with each path.

Just keep walking that circle - if you master the circle, not much else is necessary.

If you don't master the circle, not much else can help!