The Moral Problem

[manitou]

At the suggestion of Spotless, whose recommendation on anything I would take, I'm reading a most wonderful book by Franklin Merrell-Wolff called Experience and Philosophy.

 

Can I just take a moment to share a paragraph from a chapter he calls The Moral Problem?

 

 

"The Preponderant Portion of the literature outlining the conditions favorable to the Awakening lays heavy stress upon the cultivation of the moral qualities. The central emphasis is placed upon the elimination of a selfish point of view, i.e., a base of action, thought, motivation, valuation, etc., grounded in a self regarded as distinct from other selves. Now the Awakened Consciousness tends to manifest on the ethical level outlined in the above literature.

 

It does this, not as a matter of forcing upon the individual an externally formulated and imposed code, but as a spontaneous expression growing out of the very Consciousness itself. The egoistic perspective is completely submerged in fully Awakened Consciousness and, in progressive degree, this is so as the Consciousness unfolds from the Twilight stage to full Glory. For the Awakened Man, the moral problem ceases to exist in the usual sense. There may remain the technical problem of what in action is the wisest course, but there no longer exists for Him the task of mastering egoistic consciousness. There are higher fields of moral choice within the Awakened Consciousness, but they lie beyond the range of apprehension of purely egoistic consciousness."

 

 

I think there are many of us Awakened on this forum. Do you Awakened ones not find that decisions no longer have to be made, that they make themselves? And perhaps it's because we've tapped into the dynamic of the Highest Consciousness (Love) and utilize it in our decisions? It's as if Love just resides down there somewhere in our hearts, and regardless of the seeming ugliness of the situation, Love always finds a way to infuse itself into the situation and right it.

[C T]

Love absorbs and dissolves all ideas about what is right and wrong.

 

In the presence of Love, there is a certain subtle light which holds no discriminative glow. Why? Because the nature of Light is to shine, and the nature of awakening to reality is to Love, equally.

 

[steve]

Wonderful quote.

Thank you Manitou and thank you Spotless.

I feel what you are trying to communicate.

 

I have no idea where I would fall on a scale of Awakening but I'm awake enough to know that I am dreaming...

 

In another thread, Gatito eloquent mentioned the experience of when "pure consciousness gave itself a glimpse of itself shining in all its glory in the complete absence of objects and time."

 

When there is the occurrence of this "self-knowledge," I'll call it, there is a certainty that is incorruptible and unshakeable.

That certainty establishes the truth about love and our basic nature.

It is certainly not perfect and complete or continuous for those of us still bouncing around in samsara, more a fleeting glimpse that informs the rest of our days and serves as both an anchor to stabilize us and a beacon to guide us.

 

It seems as if it is that which is making decisions, as you say.

Or perhaps there's really no decision to be made in the first place.

 

The thought which claims the title 'thinker' assumes the responsibility to 'weigh options and consequences' based on memory and expectations, and then claims to have 'made the decision.' Wash, rinse, repeat... Is that the true nature of what is happening?

 

I still frequently get in the way and struggle with things for a while before I remember to let go...

Then the moral and ethical problems vanish into the pure space of being and the dance of experience continues to play itself out.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Wonderful book!

The best part is when he says that it is so close to you that the moment you go looking for it, you've already missed it.

That idea caused a satori moment all by itself. The best one I've ever had, so far. Sitting on that park bench...

 

[manitou]

When there is the occurrence of this "self-knowledge," I'll call it, there is a certainty that is incorruptible and unshakeable.

That certainty establishes the truth about love and our basic nature.

It is certainly not perfect and complete or continuous for those of us still bouncing around in samsara, more a fleeting glimpse that informs the rest of our days and serves as both an anchor to stabilize us and a beacon to guide us.

 

 

.....serves as both an anchor to stabilize us and a beacon to guide us. Can it be said any better than this? It is a total re-integration of the person, somehow - and the hearing of the voice that guides us always and the decision-making process becomes a no-brainer. It's as though 'choice' has left us - and there is only one good answer to anything.

[Bearded Dragon]

The idea of thinking about which decision to make is the number crunching of an inevitable outcome based on current internal and external conditions, congruent with a mathematical formula. Is awakening, in part, not just the embodiment of this?

[manitou]

The idea of thinking about which decision to make is the number crunching of an inevitable outcome based on current internal and external conditions, congruent with a mathematical formula. Is awakening, in part, not just the embodiment of this?

 

It's as though there is a tent pole that is always grounded in Love or Compassion, and all things are seen through those eyes. It colors everything that you mentioned above with the ultimate purpose of Love, and decisions are made within that framework - even if the decisions are nasty. They are all accepted as part of the system, seen without 'judgment' (not judgment in the sense of determining which way to go; but judgment in the sense of labeling something as 'good' or 'bad', right or wrong. The nasty decisions are made this way too, only the highest road is taken on any decision. Compassion extends to both the highest and the lowest.

 

I think the awakening we're talking about here transcends the typical decision making process. sure, we use all the faculties and conditions you mentioned. But to get to the part where our inner intuition becomes more usable, this is where the Acquired Personality needs diminished in some ways in order to obtain the clarity. If a personality is filled with resentment and hatred toward others (any persons at all!) then the inner lens is distorted. If the personality is filled with greed and anxiety, the lens is distorted. This is the inside job I'm referring to.

Edited June 19, 2014 by manitou

[manitou]

Actually, I did get permission from the franklinmerrell-wolff.com institute (or ashram) to quote from his book. If any other nuggets jump out at me, I'll use this thread to discuss, if anyone's interested.

[manitou]

Wonderful book!

The best part is when he says that it is so close to you that the moment you go looking for it, you've already missed it.

That idea caused a satori moment all by itself. The best one I've ever had, so far. Sitting on that park bench...

 

and what a Catch-22 that is. To seek it is to miss it. When the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear.

[GrandmasterP]

Excellent thread topic Manitou..

Kudos!

Here's the party line chez GMP and one that's is guaranteed to pleasantly pass a complete 3-hour lecture and seminar with first year ( Philosophies of Education) undergrads.

I lob it in as conclusion to the lecture and then sit back to enjoy the fireworks during the seminar.

 

" Morality, all of it; is naught but ossified tribal taboo. We can no more adopt a common morality than we can don a collective overcoat. One sized morality never fits all. What we can all negotiate, in order to agree upon; are ethical precepts."

 

It's that 'ossified tribal taboo' riff that sets the sparks to flying.

 

Edited June 19, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[manitou]

Excellent thread topic Manitou..

Kudos!

Here's the party line chez GMP and one that's is guaranteed to pleasantly pass a complete 3-hour lecture and seminar with first year ( Philosophies of Education) undergrads.

I lob it in as conclusion to the lecture and then sit back to enjoy the fireworks during the seminar.

 

" Morality, all of it; is naught but ossified tribal taboo. We can no more adopt a common morality than we can don a collective overcoat. One sized morality never fits all. What we can all negotiate, in order to agree upon; are ethical precepts."

 

It's that 'ossified tribal taboo' riff that sets the sparks to flying.

 

 

 

Good point. When the need for morals arise, the Tao is lost. The true Tao flows from within us. It's the Acquired Personality that disrupts the flow.

 

Ossified tribal taboo. Agreed. This is how it must have started, and it's grown into a behemoth now. What drives me nuts is the soccer mom mentality on cable news that always wants to "make sure it NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN". like each and every time some little thing comes up - some strange accident or odd occurrence - there's a big push to legislate the heck out of the problem so it Never Happens Again. What we've ended up with is a structure of rules and morals that is stifling. and truly ossified.

Edited June 19, 2014 by manitou

[GrandmasterP]

Indeed you are right Manitou.

On that same Love/Morality theme and a recent snapshot from my own little world.

A Sikh male graduate student met and fell in love with a Hindu female graduate student.

Both totally modern westernised young people with good careers in front of them.

Both families reacted with horror and, in order not to be harassed; the couple were obliged to move to another part of the country and complete their course work by online and distance learning.

They did that successfully.

To each family their union was 'immoral' in light of the respective moralities of Sikhism and Hinduism.

On balance the Hindu family was the most miffed but the Sikh guy got grief from his people. It was just that the lass got a lot more hassle and worse from her immediate family.

Their love transcended 'tribal taboo' IMO whereas in the eyes of their families that same love 'transgressed' those venerable moral codes.

Edited June 19, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Reminded me of the song "Running Bear" (loves little White Dove).

Edited June 19, 2014 by Marblehead

[joeblast]

If I wrote what I was thinking, it'd basically wind up being only deci that'd understand it. gain staging technicalities. maybe later

[nononothing]

I come to realize that it is not what you do but what you think. The form does not matter. For example, when a couple decides to separate, the separation will lead to different outcome depending on how they think. If they separate for selfish reasons, then they are against moral, they will suffer and their life will not go well. If they separate to give the other freedom, they are inline with higher moral, they will gain high love. Their life after separation will be good.

 

But it is very hard to get rid of selfishness in the decision making for unawakened. When you achieve it, even momentarily, you get superb clarity in your mind. You see all action will lead to good results as long as you keep your mind clean.

 

My personal experience is things go well as long as my heart is clean. As soon as my selfishness steps in, they mess up.

Edited June 19, 2014 by nononothing

[C T]

It's as though there is a tent pole that is always grounded in Love or Compassion, and all things are seen through those eyes. It colors everything that you mentioned above with the ultimate purpose of Love, and decisions are made within that framework - even if the decisions are nasty. They are all accepted as part of the system, seen without 'judgment' (not judgment in the sense of determining which way to go; but judgment in the sense of labeling something as 'good' or 'bad', right or wrong. The nasty decisions are made this way too, only the highest road is taken on any decision. Compassion extends to both the highest and the lowest.

 

I think the awakening we're talking about here transcends the typical decision making process. sure, we use all the faculties and conditions you mentioned. But to get to the part where our inner intuition becomes more usable, this is where the Acquired Personality needs diminished in some ways in order to obtain the clarity. If a personality is filled with resentment and hatred toward others (any persons at all!) then the inner lens is distorted. If the personality is filled with greed and anxiety, the lens is distorted. This is the inside job I'm referring to.

spot on!!

[manitou]

 

Their love transcended 'tribal taboo' IMO whereas in the eyes of their families that same love 'transgressed' those venerable moral codes.

 

Aah, Relativity strikes once again.

[Spotless]

The idea of thinking about which decision to make is the number crunching of an inevitable outcome based on current internal and external conditions, congruent with a mathematical formula. Is awakening, in part, not just the embodiment of this?

 

It is very different

 

The number crunching falls away - in fact it becomes effort of a sort, though not a problem.

Thoughts no longer flood the river of buzz we lived in previously - "thoughts" are of little importance.

One is no longer swimming in the river of buzz - not because of disdain for it or because we have risen above it - it simply cannot tug us into inertia, nothing to grab onto. Right / wrong, good / evil, just / unjust falls flat.

 

Decision making in any normal sense changes radically - you are not constantly perusing the future - the future falls away and for a time you are dealing with the freefall effect.

 

Sleep falls away

 

Your story becomes as remote as your life as a sheep herder 1000 years ago.

 

Much of what you were "doing" sits there like a dead log.

 

 

[manitou]

Decision making in any normal sense changes radically - you are not constantly perusing the future - the future falls away and for a time you are dealing with the freefall effect.

 

And the reason you don't constantly peruse the future is that you leave the 'results' of any actions taken to the cosmic forces that Be, and adjust your actions accordingly - because you are no longer fixed in one position. As Castaneda would say, the "assemblage point (our point of perception) has become movable" and we become capable of thinking on our feet and adjusting to conditions adeptly. As opposed to trying to keep hammering a square peg into a round hole because either our ego or our personal identity has become enmeshed in our original intended result. Somehow we develop an inner sense that 'everything is as it should be at any particular moment'. Whoever shows is supposed to be there. Whoever didn't show wasn't supposed to be there.

 

Sleep falls away Your story becomes as remote as your life as a sheep herder 1000 years ago. Much of what you were "doing" sits there like a dead log.

 

Yes, the story does get remote, doesn't it? I've thought of this phenomena previously too. The more integrity we gain as a human being - a real human being - the less important the trappings become. Such as what we do for a living, how much money we have, etc. We develop an sense of the inner quality that we were intended to possess, and at some point in time, if we're lucky, we realize that this is the only real prize to obtain. Real human being-ness.

[Marblehead]

If I wrote what I was thinking, it'd basically wind up being only deci that'd understand it. gain staging technicalities. maybe later

Am I allowed to suggest that you just keep it to yourself, based on the limiters you place upon it?

[GrandmasterP]

 

And the reason you don't constantly peruse the future is that you leave the 'results' of any actions taken to the cosmic forces that Be, and adjust your actions accordingly - because you are no longer fixed in one position. As Castaneda would say, the "assemblage point (our point of perception) has become movable" and we become capable of thinking on our feet and adjusting to conditions adeptly. As opposed to trying to keep hammering a square peg into a round hole because either our ego or our personal identity has become enmeshed in our original intended result. Somehow we develop an inner sense that 'everything is as it should be at any particular moment'. Whoever shows is supposed to be there. Whoever didn't show wasn't supposed to be there.

 

 

 

Yes, the story does get remote, doesn't it? I've thought of this phenomena previously too. The more integrity we gain as a human being - a real human being - the less important the trappings become. Such as what we do for a living, how much money we have, etc. We develop an sense of the inner quality that we were intended to possess, and at some point in time, if we're lucky, we realize that this is the only real prize to obtain. Real human being-ness.

For sure anyone who cultivates regularly seems to be a bit of an odd fish ( in a nice way) to folks who don't cultivate regularly but are open to and maybe interested the ideas.

I teach Mindfulness and QiGong mainly to seniors but do one class a week for undergrads and graduate age folks.

The seniors enjoy the company and gentle exercise but very few 'take it further' it's a class and a bit of a 'club' they like to come to.

I'm in there alongside the Weightwatchers group and a Zumba class. It's a social centre based class and almost just another thing for people to attend if they are so minded.

None the worse for that and we have fun.

The class I teach once a week in the college where I work though, some of those younger people really do get into it and we do have reports back now and again of how much better they are feeling or how more focused they can be on their studies.

It's all entirely secular and we get people from all faith paths and none but some of them are looking for 'something to believe in' and are almost disappointed when they don't find some party line being pushed.

In this game it must be pretty easy to set up as some kind of guru because that's what some people are looking for and where there's a market then there are sellers to meet the buyers needs.

That whole 'spirituality for sale' schtick leaves me a bit cold.

Fair play to those who do get a living by it but that's not for me at all.

Edited June 19, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Mark Foote]

Jack Kornfield talks about his experience:

 

Does this mean we should trade meditation for psychotherapy? Not at all. Therapy isn’t the solution either. Consciousness is! And consciousness grows in spirals. If you seek freedom, the most important thing I can tell you is that spiritual practice always develops in cycles. There are inner times when silence is necessary, followed by outer times for living and integrating the silent realizations, as well as times to get help from a deep and therapeutic relationship with another person. These are equally important phases of practice. It is not a question of first developing a self and then letting go of it. Both go on all the time. Any period of practice may include samadhi and stillness, followed by new levels of experiencing wounds and family history, followed by great letting go, followed by more personal problems. It is possible to work with all of these levels in the context of a spiritual practice. What is required is the courage to face the totality of what arises. Only then can we find the deep healing we seek - for ourselves and for our planet. (from here)

 

This, after he speaks of the ways in which therapy helps heal some things maybe a little better then meditation.

 

Not saying there isn't gnosis and freedom, as it were, just saying not knowing and being is without trace.

[Silent Answers]

Of all the threads I've read through so far, this has been my favourite

Sometimes I ask myself, why am I here on Taobums? (no offence) ... Does taking part here simply add to the confusion of what is and isn't.. When we express ourselves, debate and post insightful words, are we still secretly looking for praise unaware? Are we actually still slave to ego?...

It's topics like this that remind me, ttb contains too much wisdom to pass up on... And though we don't always all agree on certain things, our foundations in love and the journey we are on link us all together...driving each other on in the persuit of true happiness.

Love to all you amazing people!

Edited June 20, 2014 by Silent Answers

[Bearded Dragon]

It is very different The number crunching falls away - in fact it becomes effort of a sort, though not a problem. Thoughts no longer flood the river of buzz we lived in previously - "thoughts" are of little importance. One is no longer swimming in the river of buzz - not because of disdain for it or because we have risen above it - it simply cannot tug us into inertia, nothing to grab onto. Right / wrong, good / evil, just / unjust falls flat. Decision making in any normal sense changes radically - you are not constantly perusing the future - the future falls away and for a time you are dealing with the freefall effect. Sleep falls away Your story becomes as remote as your life as a sheep herder 1000 years ago. Much of what you were "doing" sits there like a dead log.

 

Yeah.

 

Am I correct in presuming that the current situation defines one single inevitable outcome? This is the only conclusion I can come to at this point. Whether using the thinking process, or extremely refined intuition I feel like the situation must be just as inevitable.

 

And then, is love and compassion not just the unconditional acceptance of every outcome, since nobody can react to a situation other than the way at which they are able to at this time?

 

I feel like morality is part of the system that defines the inevitability. It is not clear to me how one could ever have choice. The progression seems like an interaction between your original nature and external conditions.

[Spotless]

 

Yeah.

 

Am I correct in presuming that the current situation defines one single inevitable outcome? This is the only conclusion I can come to at this point. Whether using the thinking process, or extremely refined intuition I feel like the situation must be just as inevitable.

 

And then, is love and compassion not just the unconditional acceptance of every outcome, since nobody can react to a situation other than the way at which they are able to at this time?

 

I feel like morality is part of the system that defines the inevitability. It is not clear to me how one could ever have choice. The progression seems like an interaction between your original nature and external conditions.

The word inevitable is something not clear to me - oddly I have not pondered it much - but I have dealt with it many times directly.

Futures can be altered and futures can be revealed and take full advantage of. Yet, I was a Philosophy major and so I am well aware of how far you can take that discussion. But from experience, futures can be seen in advance and then viewed without change or they can be just as easily changed with the same ease as changing channels on a radio but even easier.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Spotless