The importance of Bodhichitta and compassion

[三江源]

Its more than a feeling its the awakened mind.

Exactly. its a feeling+.

 

It isnt 'not a feeling'. There is no such exclusion. Remember feeling is actually a rational function.

[Simple_Jack]

Its more than a feeling its the awakened mind.

 

 

Exactly. its a feeling+.

 

It isnt 'not a feeling'. There is no such exclusion. Remember feeling is actually a rational function.

 

It's neither, being that it's free from all extremes, since ultimate bodhicitta is 'unconditioned.'

Edited October 28, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Would The Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa suffice? (By Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey, edited by Samaya Hart and Alexander Berzin, November 2003.)

 

As I have access to it at present.

 

Yeah, pick whatever one you like, there's translated commentaries out there from the Sakyapas, Nyingmapas, Kagyupas and Gelugpas.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[三江源]

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Edited December 27, 2014 by 三江源

[Apech]

Exactly. its a feeling+.

 

It isnt 'not a feeling'. There is no such exclusion. Remember feeling is actually a rational function.

 

I kind of get where you are coming from there - but what I was challenging was the idea that because compassion is 'feeling with' - so yes a feeling in that sense - it is not a sentiment - rather it is the ability of one person to genuinely understand another ... and this arises essentially from understanding yourself. If you think you feel compassion fro someone or some being but you don't have a clue about them then you are kidding yourself. But by knowing yourself (since we all have a common architecture) you can understand them. And ultimately if know so well you are awakened then you have perfect compassion.

[Cheshire Cat]

Reposting this, from the "internet Buddhist" Loppon Namdrol, on TTB's:

 

Uncontrived bodhicitta is based on one's personal experience of the nature of the mind, and from that stems limitless compassion for others.

 

I really doubt that this internet buddhist have an idea of what he's talking about...

[三江源]

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Edited June 22, 2014 by cat

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

Yes, its funny.. our common vocabularly is actually so sloppily used.

 

Feeling is a function without which we are non- operational in the realm of cultivation.

 

Sentiment is extraneous to the process.

 

 

yes well put ... exactly true ...

[Simple_Jack]

Could you explain please. Where does the 'extremes' comment fit in, with regard to your exclusion of the feeling function here?

 

You appear to be suggesting that feeling function must be excluded as extremes are excluded, as if the two are somehow conflated.

I'm sure that isnt what you mean, as there is no logic to that.. so could you actually explain what you mean?

 

Thanks.

 

I'm just going by how this is presented in the Prajnaparamita literature. Ultimate bodhicitta is the wisdom that comprehends all phenomena as free from extremes i.e. non-arising. This is what bodhisattvas on the path of seeing realize and become increasingly familiarized with on the path of meditation.

 

Would The Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa suffice? (By Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey, edited by Samaya Hart and Alexander Berzin, November 2003.)

 

As I have access to it at present.

 

This is actually a Lam Rim text, sorry for the mix up. This is still a good resource though.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

Bodhicitta is semen

[Simple_Jack]

Bodhicitta is semen

 

Menstrual blood for women.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

Or is bodhicitta the white drop everyone has?

[Aetherous]

Are you two being serious? That seems so far from the usual description of bodhicitta...

[Simple_Jack]

Or is bodhicitta the white drop everyone has?

 

Yeah.

 

Are the highest level tantric practices taught in a more balanced way these days?

 

Definitely not the Kalacakra, from what I heard.

 

Are you two being serious? That seems so far from the usual description of bodhicitta...

 

It's from the tantric perspective.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Aetherous]

Ah I see...thanks for the answers.

[Simple_Jack]

It's eventually about the meeting of the white and red drops.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Union of male and female inside of "you."

 

The meeting of the drops in the sushumna.

[RongzomFan]

Sounds very male centric. Killing the ladies' lifeforce

 

That website is a smear job on Buddhism.

[RongzomFan]

Are the highest level tantric practices taught in a more balanced way these days?

 

If you are referring to karmamudra, no one (except lamas) has those trainings.

 

So I doubt anyone can properly answer your question regarding how karmamudra is being taught.

Edited October 29, 2013 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

Definitely not the Kalacakra, from what I heard.

 

You know someone who received Karmamudra in Kalacakra?

Edited October 29, 2013 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

RF, On a male centric note, is "my" bodhicitta semen too? Curious why you did not offer any comparable female essence/fluid.

 

 

Because I don't fully understand this area.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thanks for admitting that. And, for me, I seriously don't know. But do have a tinge experiential insight to begin to see how this all works. So, that is what piques my curiosity in this thread.

 

Best to you --

Hi R V,

This is from "The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa":

 

The body can be said to exist simultaneously on three levels. These are the gross body, the subtle body, and the very subtle body. The gross body is composed of the blood, bones, five sense organs, and so forth. The subtle body, also known as the vajra body, comprises the channels and the energy-winds and drops that exist within the channels. There are thousands of these subtle physical channels running throughout our body. The main ones that we use in meditation are the central channel, which runs up and down our body just in front of the spine, and the two side channels, which run alongside the central channel. At various points along the central channel, smaller channels branch off to form channel wheels, or chakras. I will discuss the channels and chakras in more detail later (see chapter 14).

 

The energy-winds, or airs, that we are discussing do not refer to the air that we breathe in from the outside world, but to the subtle winds that flow throughout our channels. These subtle winds enable our bodies to function and are associated with different levels of mind.1 In tantra there is a saying, “The mind rides on the wind.” This means that our consciousness is mounted on the winds; they always move together through the subtle channels. We are working with and learning to control these winds during inner fire meditation.

 

Our vajra body also contains subtle liquid energy, the red and white drops. The Tibetan word for these drops is tigle, but I prefer to use the Hindu term kundalini because it is more universal. The tantras also refer to the drops as bodhicitta. Actually, in Tibetan we say kun-da da-bu jang-sem, which translates as “moon-like bodhicitta.” Although these red and white drops are always together in all the channels, the female red drops predominate at the navel chakra and the male white drops at the crown chakra. (Some tantric practices speak of the kundalini drops as deities; they say that dakas and dakinis dance throughout the nervous system.)

 

The third aspect of the body, the very subtle body, manifests at the time of death. After the absorptions of the four elements comes the experience of the three visions: the white, red, and black visions. After these, the clear light of death arises. The subtle states of consciousness that experience these visions, referred to as “the four empties,” are simultaneously accompanied by subtle wind energy, the most subtle being the wind that accompanies the clear light mind in the indestructible drop at the heart chakra. This subtlest of winds is the very subtle body.

 

When the yogi or yogini arises from the experience of clear light wisdom, this very subtle wind manifests as an illusory body. With achievement of the illusory body, a very high attainment, there is total unity of body and mind. At present we don’t have good communication between body and mind. Our bodies and minds have different energies and are not unified with each other. Understanding the subtle body and the very subtle body helps us to recognize that we have other bodies within us in addition to our physical body—so we don’t have to worry too much when our gross body is degenerating or being uncooperative.

 

Courtin, Robina; Yeshe, Lama Thubten; Cameron, Ailsa (2005-06-10). The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa (pp. 82-84). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

If you are seeking great pleasure, certain ecstasy that lasts and lasts and perhaps the achievement of the 'illusory body', then tantra is the way to go. However, the illusory body is impermanent and well, more pleasure just breeds more desire, greater pleasure. It is not liberating.

 

This is from the book called "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud -Pith Instructions from the Experiential Transmission of Bonpo Dzogchen - Teachings by Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Namdak".

http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Nyengyud-Yongdzin-Tenzin-Namdak/dp/8170262682

 

33. Ponchen Lhuyndrub Muthur

Ponchen Murthur was a very great Tantric practitioner and most of the time he was occupied with Tantric practice. Even though he had received this Teaching, he was very interested in the power of Tantra and didn't concentrate properly on practising Dzogchen. He lived as a nomad with cattle, sheep, goats and so on. He had one white goat which looked after all the animals and a white female yak which looked after all the yaks so thanks to the power of his Tantric practice, there was no need to employ anyone. The animals looked after themselves. That was how he lived, but at the end of his life he didn't disappear but left the body behind. Just before his death he rememberd how his Master had flown away as a cuckoo and realized that he himself hadn't practised Dzogchen properly but it was too late. Nevertheless, he was a very powerful, renowned Tantric practitioner.

 

Yongdzin Rinpoche comments:

He practiced Dzogchen once he had received the Experiential Teachings from Pon Tsenpo, but he didn't practise it seriously; he mainly practised Zhang Zhung Meri Tantra. Before he passed away, he said he was disappointed in three points:

- He didn't concentrate on Dzogchen practice and that was a mistake for his practice.

- He was always proud of showing his powers which had come from practising Tantra. But that was not enough, so he was disappointed.

- He had wanted his life to be worthwhile and to be a great Dzogchen practitioner not a Tantrist, but he practised Tantra as well as Dzogchen and had great Tantric Powers, so everyone knew him because of his power and came to him because of that. He was very proud and that had spoilt his life a little bit. He was very sorry for that.

 

He said honestly: 'I received very precious things but I didn't practise properly so now it is too late'. These three points were disppointments for him. [...] He said this very honestly. Modern lamas don't speak like this, but in those times he was very honest.

 

I should also mention, Bodhichitta has different meanings according to whom is teaching. I like to think of it as heart essence.

From:

Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings

according to

LOPON TENZIN NAMDAK

 

What is the benefit derived from realizing this Dzogchen

nature? What is the purpose of all this? When we practice

according to Sutra and Tantra, we cultivate Bodhichitta as our

intention and we think of releasing other beings from the prison

of Samsara. Now when we practice being in the Natural State,

this is certainly of benefit to us and our happiness and peace of

mind, but what of the benefit to other beings? Is this not like the

Arhat of the Hinayana Sutra system who is thinking only of his

own benefit and release from Samsara? If this is so, how can we

then say that Dzogchen is the highest teaching? We can justly say

that it is the highest because all virtuous qualities are already

inherent in the Natural State from the very beginning. They

spontaneously exist there, and include Bodhichitta, the perfections

of Dana (generosity) and the rest, as well as the Shilas

(moral precepts) of the Vinaya.

 

So if we practice the Natural State, this alone, all of these

many virtuous qualities will manifest in us spontaneously and effortlessly.

It is like a panacea, the one medicine that cures all ills.

The potential exists there all the time. Therefore, we do not need

to practice these virtues individually and cultivate them by means

of discursive thoughts. It is like the butter inherent in milk; it is

there all the time, even though we do not see it. All of the virtues

of the Path are inherent in the Natural State, and we do not need

to develop them individually one after the other. The Natural

State encompasses all good things But we must know this first, for

without the knowledge we can stray into wrong actions. This

knowledge is the secondary cause for the manifestation of virtues.

It is like churning milk in order to bring out the butter. The

butter is there all the time in the milk, but it is invisible; the

churning is the secondary cause for its visible manifestation.

 

 

TI

[de_paradise]

The question is if cultivating bodhicitta is a waste of time because it is not the spontaneous bodhicitta of an enlightened being, or may lead one down roads where one is taken advantage of, or robbed. The answer is that bodhicitta is primarily an internal practice, its about clearing your own blockages from what stands between you and universal loving/compassion/empathy. You can practice bodhicitta generating just by walking in the park looking at the foliage and considering yourself in the greater scheme. Its not about creating hypothetical experiments about where you cannot practice compassion and empathy--that is only indicative of your own hindrance. Its not about following a simple rule like "must always give money to people who ask." Bodhicitta is what you carry in your own heart, but I would argue that there is a skillfulness we have to learn while we are in society. We cannot afford to be as dogmatic as a monk who owns nothing but his clothes, but we can practice bodhicitta nonetheless. We also like to talk about ideals such as perfect bodhicitta of a Buddha, and therefore ours is chopped liver? No, there are levels, there is an area where you can say relatively more or less like real bodhicitta. But if you don't practice you wouldnt know that there is this training ground, and that relatively impure bodhicitta still can accelerate one's path. That's why it is said bodhicitta is the quick path to enlightenment, and that's why monks are made to repeat all the compassion phrases and encouraged to feel them as well as repeat. If bodhicitta were not so important why even bother making all those statements, why make a bodhisattva vow at all if it is something automatically realized at awakening?

 

Sometimes some things people say have only a little external meaning yet carry a force of inner message and its quite interesting when that is some kind of energetic-laced bodhicitta.

Edited October 29, 2013 by de_paradise

[9th]

Uh huh, just like how yours are derived from clinging to signs and characteristics i.e. conceptual elaborations.

 

Well, I can already see your lack of awareness and understanding quite clearly - so I dont expect you to have an accurate view on this. Projections and distortions? That I can expect.

 

Study is no substitute for practice, although it can seem that way for certain people.

 

You may wish to reconsider how much time you spend being fixated on (and clinging to) "conceptual elaborations" you have acquired second-hand.