...

[Apech]

cat,

 

the natural state is just the complete and deep realization of unformed energy in your life.

unformed energy is colorless and white -- non-descript and empty.

and because it is indescribable and empty, it is describable, as well as ecstatic and blissful.

meaning:

the unformed contains the formed, the absolute contains the relative, nothing contains something.

this idea seems contradictory, but it just goes to show the limitation of words.

as you can see, any attempt to engage this dialogue on a mental level will eventually lead to a philosophical impasse.

and even if one can recite something is nothing, and nothing is something -- it doesn't mean they realized the natural state.

the truth is beyond words

the truth is not a philosophy to abide by.

the truth is just unformed energy.

 

 

hope you are well. take care~

 

The truth is formed and unformed energy (or that is a way of putting it).

[C T]

For Baopuzi, all practice is unnatural. Thus, Sagehood, transcendence, living an exceedingly long life. Trying to mimic nature is not natural. These are not an endowment from above. Only the ability to develop such unnatural techniques and to achieve something unnatural is.

Yes, on some level one could agree that all practice (as in 'doing') is unnatural, stemming from the arising of tension the moment movement is initiated. Which i guess explains why 'stillness' is such an enticing notion to some.

 

Perhaps i am missing something, but what you said in the closing line is not quite clear... could you perhaps elaborate on it? Im reading it to mean something which seems contradictory to what i think your post is pointing to, so there is a need to seek clarification. Cheers.

 

Also, who is Baopuzi? Never heard of this name.

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

Presumably the formed emerges from the unformed, so is essentially unformed.. as that is where it begins and to whence it returns.

 

 

Where does unformed energy emerge from? The ideas of beginning and returning don't really apply except as illustrations of relationship.

[ChiDragon]

Really, is it this simple?

Yes, this thread started with real simple words but expecting a real complicated answer.

[RongzomFan]

According to Dudjom Rinpoche and others you are supposed to recognize the "fourth time" as opposed to the conceptualizing mind (i.e. the three times).

 

 

Here is one public reference:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=E8C3_VZr-QsC&pg=PA168&dq=dzogchen+fourth+time&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6SdkUrVI69zgA_OlgagP&ved=0CDEQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=dzogchen%20fourth%20time&f=false

Edited October 20, 2013 by RongzomFan

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[C T]

the five pure lights correspond to the five Buddha families.

 

This article explains it clearly.. http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1658

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

The truth is formed and unformed energy (or that is a way of putting it).

 

'Truth' is the experience itself.. not the words, labels, meanings, beliefs, and attachments we assign to the experience..

 

Be well..

[RongzomFan]

when buddhist members discuss 'the natural state'.

 

I think "natural state" is a complete newbie term.

 

I've never seen Loppon Malcolm use it for example.

 

He talks about recognizing the instant of unfabricated awareness (ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma).

[RongzomFan]

Rather than nitpick over terminology, how about providing helpful assistance to a fellow Bum who is moving towards awakening? And inquiring about "recognizing the instant of unfabricated awareness." (Using your words.)

 

Sure.

 

The sutrayana approach is by reading text. For example Zen.

 

In certain teachings of Vajrayana the approach is direct introduction and rushan.

Edited October 20, 2013 by RongzomFan

[Tibetan_Ice]

In Bon Dzogchen, the five pure lights are:

 

THE FIVE PURE LIGHTS

 

The most subtle dimension of the five elements is known as the “five pure lights.” In the Dzogchen tradition there are many texts of teachings about the elements. From the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud, the primary cycle of Dzogchen teachings in the Bön tradition, I am drawing from two main texts which go into detail about the five lights. These are The Six Lamps (Sgronma drug) and The Mirror of the Luminous Mind (‘ Od-gsal sems-kyi melong). One teaching, which is partially a story, explains how the elemental energies, though always pure in themselves, come to be perceived as substantial. It is also the story of how, in the intermediate state (bardo) between death and birth, the individual goes toward either the delusions of samsara or the freedom of nirvana. On another level, it is the description of what can be done, in any moment, to end ensnarement in karmic visions and remain in the natural state of mind.

 

The teaching says something like this: For each of us, everything begins with the primordial space, the Great Mother from which all things arise, in which all things exist, and into which all things dissolve. In this space there is movement. What causes it, no one knows. The teachings only say “the winds of karma moved.” This is the movement of the subtlest level of lung or prana, the energy that pervades infinite space without characteristics or divisions. Inseparably united with the flow of prana is the flow of primordial awareness, pure and without identity. In this pure awareness five lights arise.

 

The five lights are aspects of primordial luminosity. These are the five pure lights, the most subtle level of the elements. We talk about the light and color of the five pure lights but this is symbolic. The five pure lights are more subtle than visible light, more subtle than anything perceived by the eye, more subtle than any energy measured or perceived by any means. They are the energies from which all other energies, including visible light, arise. The white or colorless light is space, the green light is air, the red light is fire, the blue light is water, and the yellow light is earth. These are the five aspects of pure luminosity, the rainbow-like energies of the single sphere of existence (tigle nyag chik).

 

If the five lights are experienced dualistically, as objects of a perceiving subject, they appear to grow more substantial. The five lights don’t become grosser, but through the distortions of dualistic vision the individual perceives them as grosser. As the elements seem to grow toward greater substantiality, they are further discriminated, and through their interactions they manifest all phenomena, including the subject and objects that make up all dualistic experience.

 

Eventually the five lights become the raw, natural physical elements and five inclusive categories of qualities belonging to external reality. They become the different dimensions of existence that are various realms in which beings with and without form exist. Internally the five lights seem to thicken and form the organs, the five branches of the body, the five fingers of each hand, the five toes of each foot, the five senses, and the five sense fields. The five lights become the five negative emotions if we remain deluded, or the five wisdoms and the five buddha families if we recognize their purity.

 

This is not a story about a creation that happened in the distant past. It is about how we live as individual beings and about ignorance and enlightenment. If the five lights are recognized as a non-dual, unceasing manifestation of the pure basis of existence (kunzhi), nirvana begins. If the five lights are perceived dualistically and thought to exist externally, as objects of a subject, samsara begins. The awareness does not become delusory or become enlightened— it remains non-dual and pure— but the qualities that arise in it can be either positive or negative. If the awareness integrates and identifies with the pure qualities, a buddha arises from the base; if with the impure, a samsaric being arises. In this moment, right now, the process is ongoing.

 

Depending on whether we integrate our immediate experience with non-dual awareness or cling to the false separation of our selves as subjects experiencing external objects and entities, we will be in the non-dual natural state or in the deluded mind.

 

Rinpoche, Tenzin Wangyal (2002-05-25). Healing with Form, Energy, and Light: The Five Elements in Tibetan Shamanism, Tantra, and Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 526-563). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

[Tibetan_Ice]

The way Lopon Tenzin Namdak describes the Natural State, you'd think it is the TAO. It cannot be talked about nor put into concepts. It is beyond mind. However, it can be realized.

 

If you would like to read an excellent book on the Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings, this is it:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/138921378/Lopon-Tenzin-Namdak-Bonpo-Dzogchen-Teachings

 

There is even a whole chapter on "The Natural State" and you will find the term "Natural State" in hundreds of sentences.

 

Edited October 20, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[RongzomFan]

Whatever you want to call it, its definitely recognize, not realize.

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[9th]

If a reflection manifests in the mirror, why is it manifesting? There are two reasons. One is because the mirror has the capacity to manifest infinite reflections. This is the mirror's quality. If there is an object in front of the mirror, whose capacity it is to reflect, naturally a reflection will appear in the mirror. Furthermore, the mirror has no idea of checking or accepting the object it is reflecting. The mirror doesn't need any program for that. This is what is called its qualification, or infinite potentiality.

 

In the same way, we have infinite potentiality, but we are ignorant of that. When we are ignorant of our real nature, then we always conceive that "I am here" and "the object is there," "I am looking and seeing an object," and so on. We do not discover that we are like a mirror, and if we never discover this, then of course there is no way that we can function like the mirror. When you discover that you are like the mirror, then there is a possibility that you will be the mirror.

 

When you are the mirror, then you have no problems with reflections- they can be big, small, nice, ugly, any kind. For you, the reflections are only a manifestation of your quality, which is like that of a mirror. When you have no problems with reflections, then you understand self-liberation. You are not changing or transforming something. You are only being in your real nature.

 

You remember the idea of "the same flavor" in the Mahamudra teaching and the Dzogchen Semde. You can understand this if you are really being the mirror. Whether there is a nice or ugly reflection, there is no difference for you. When you are in your real nature, there is no change at all. That is the real meaning of self-liberation.

 

 

- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[Seth Ananda]

What's the difference? See , not feel? cognise, not achieve?

 

'Recognise' means seeing something you already know, and everyone 'knows' the natural state in some way.

They see it and go "Ahh of course" how did i over look you for so long?

 

Realising could be taken to mean gaining an insight into something that was completely beyond you up until now...

Something that was previously unknown.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Seth Ananda

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

'Recognise' means seeing something you already know, and everyone 'knows' the natural state in some way.

They see it and go "Ahh of course" how did i over look you for so long?

 

Realising could be taken to mean gaining an insight into something that was completely beyond you up until now...

Something that was previously unknown.

 

Walking up to the well you see a snake coiled beside it.. as you get closer, you 'realize' it is a rope..

 

Be well..

[thetaoiseasy]

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Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[steve]

What's the difference? See , not feel? cognise, not achieve?

I see recognition as waking up to the knowledge of who we are.

Realization, on the other hand, is the ongoing process of acting from that perspective in such a way as to give it full expression in our lives.

[Jeff]

Hi Cat,

 

Here is an excellent quote on the topic...

 

 

Namkhai Norbu:

"The real state means we are not only remaining in emptiness
but we also look at who is in this emptiness, and we discover
that. If we discover that, then we are in our real nature."

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[三江源]

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Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat