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[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[Jetsun]

It's often described as resting in the natural state, which may help at least to highlight things you shouldn't do if you would like to stabilise it, because all that energy manipulation and generating love and compassion and battling your negative thoughts and doing the downward facing dog while reciting the thousand names of Vishnu is not resting. We probably want it to be more complicated than it actually is.

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[9th]

 

In the Dzogchen teachings, a teacher explains methods that you can apply for discovering that state. When you say that you are practicing or following Dzogchen teachings, it doesn't mean that you are reciting some prayers or mantras, or doing some visualization. It means that, following a teacher and using methods, you discover that state. When you have discovered that state, then you still need many kinds of methods for realizing it. Discovering the state of your real nature and realizing it are completely different things.

 

Many people have the idea that when they have had some experience or discovery, they are enlightened; however, this discovery does not mean they are enlightened. The state of enlightenment means you have direct knowledge of what the state of rigpa is, and you are not just learning through intellectual study. When you follow a teaching in an intellectual way, you have many ideas at first-thinking, judging, and making analysis. You can follow or reject these ideas; but when you have many problems, you discover that perhaps this is not real knowledge. It is like following something blindly because you haven't had any direct experience. Direct introduction and discovering our real nature mean we have direct experience through our senses, and that through these experiences we discover our real nature.

 

For example, if I show you an object, you can look at it and know its form and color. Now if I ask you to forget about it, you can't. If I ask you to change your idea about that object, you can't. Why? Because seeing that object is your direct experience. Discovering your real nature is similar to that.

 

When you are studying in an intellectual way, you are following another person's idea. For example, you can believe your teacher today, but maybe what your teacher says will not be true for you tomorrow. You can always change your ideas. You have this problem because you have not discovered your state. This is the weak point of intellectual study.

 

- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

[Apech]

it's a very beautiful light. Thankyou for saying.

 

 

In the past, I had lights appear in the shape of runes/runic symbols, at third eye.

 

Just mentioning it in case anyone knows anything about this.

 

Which side of you is the blue light? or in front?

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[RongzomFan]

It's often described as resting in the natural state

 

no no no

 

You recognize X (whatever you want to call it).

 

Then you can rest in that knowledge.

 

Edited October 21, 2013 by RongzomFan

[Jetsun]

 

no no no

 

You recognize X (whatever you want to call it).

 

Then you rest in that knowledge.

I don't understand how you would rest in knowledge. Rest is prior to knowledge.

[9th]

I'm fine with finding out the intellectual part late in game, which is just as well because that seems to be the way of it for this one. I only started to study taoism at all to find out what it was that had happened to me, and seeing it written in the alchemical texts was comforting.

 

 

 

 

There is nothing to decide in regard to the path, the teaching, or the master. You don't need to decide or accept anything at all. In particular, if you meet a serious Dzogchen teacher, he or she never asks you to accept a teaching, the teacher, or the transmission. The teacher only asks you to discover, and gives you methods. Working together with these methods, you try to discover that. When you have discovered one, you have discovered all. This is the basis of the Dzogchen teaching. If you only open one eye, you can see everything. You don't need to open your eyes one at a time in order to see.

 

In the Dzogchen teaching it is said that when we discover our real nature, we discover everything. For example, many Dzogchen masters never studied or learned in an intellectual way. When they received a precise transmission, they practiced and used methods, woke up, and became learned and scholarly. It works that way.

 

The principle is that we try to discover our real nature. To do this, we must first open our eyes, look at our situation, condition, and limitations, and learn in a precise way. You remember the Buddha's teaching on cause and effect. When you discover there is a cause, then you discover that there is also an effect. If you open your eyes without limiting yourself, then you can discover everything - particularly how to work with the teaching, the transmission, and the methods.

 

 

- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

[RongzomFan]

ChNN uses the eye analogy elsewhere as well.

 

If you open up your eyes even a little, you see everything.

 

I take this to mean you either recognize or you don't. There is no middle ground.

[Ish]

Hey guys ! let's rest in knowing that water will quench our thirst rather than actually drinking the water!

[Tibetan_Ice]

it's a very beautiful light. Thankyou for saying.

 

 

In the past, I had lights appear in the shape of runes/runic symbols, at third eye.

 

Just mentioning it in case anyone knows anything about this.

 

Hi Cat,

It is wonderful that you see runes/runic symbols at the third eye! Can you keep that up by just letting go?

 

I think you should really read this. It is from Tenzin Namdak's book called Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings, which I linked to previously.

If you are getting visions during meditation, especially shapes and symbols, you have managed to realize the natural state, the thekchod part. Now the task becomes to stay in that state and dissolve the visions, the Thodgal part.

 

Don't be inimidated by the terminology, if you have any questions, just ask.

 

QUOTE:

 

Thekchod and Thodgal

Most of the extant Bonpo texts dealing with Dzogchen are

Upadesha. In the Upadesha or Manngagide (man-ngag gi sde), the

emphasis is put on Thekchod and Thodgal. Thekchod means

entering into and remaining in the Natural State. This is mainly

concerned with the state of primordial purity (ka-dag), but

Thodgal is the other half of Upadesha practice and refers to spontaneous

self-perfected manifestation (lhun-grub ). Here the practitioner

uses posture, breathing and gazing. But nevertheless, as

the base and foundation for this Thodgal practice we first need to

establish our Thekchod firmly, which means being able to continue

with stability in the Natural State.

 

Thekchod means that we enter into and continue in the

Natural State. We begin practice by turning inward and observing

the mind. But there is no visualization practice to be done here.

We do not need to become engaged in the activities of Kyerim

and Dzogrim as is the case with Tantra. All we have to do is to be

aware without distraction and observe the arising of thoughts. We

observe that they dissolve again without leaving a trace. As long

as we remain in the Natural State, no visualization is needed. If

we need the supports of visualization and mantra in our practice,

then we are not ready for Dzogchen. When we are actually in the

Natural State, we do not examine whether it is good or bad.

There is no judging or thinking about something as, for example,

when we watch TV. If we are examining or judging or focusing

on something, this is the work of the mind, and therefore we are

not in the Natural State. If we focus the attention, we lose the

Natural State. Any focusing or fixating of attention is the work of

the mind, and then we are no longer in the Natural State. So we

do not judge in any way the thoughts that arise. If we relax our

fixation on an object like the white A, then it seems as if more

thoughts arise. They become like rough water in a mountain

stream. But if we continue the practice, later the mind becomes

like a slow-moving river and, eventually, like a calm sea.

 

At first we will need a quiet place to practice because many

distractions come to disturb us. And also we may have problems

with drowsiness, dullness and agitation. However, methods exist

for overcoming these problems. Drowsiness and dullness mean

that our energy is not there. For drowsiness, we need fresh air

and to find a higher place. For dullness, we need to add energy in

order to make things clearer. Agitation can be coarse or subtle.

The first is easy to recognize, whereas the second is very difficult

to detect and we do not realize that we are distracted. If agitation

is very rough, we need to stop practice and do something else for

a time. This is how to practice Thekchod.

 

Thodgal Visions

The reason why we do Thodgal practice is in order to realize

that the vision of ordinary normal life is equally illusory and

insubstantial. We think that our impure karmic vision, that is, the

world as we see it as human beings, is solid and real and concrete.

But this vision is all a projection arising from causes. Because we

all have the cause for human karmic vision, we humans see the

world in more or less the same way. But we must understand the

illusory nature of our karmic vision. The practice of Thodgal may

also serve as a preparation for the after-death experience, where

visions arise in the Bardo.

 

As an example of such spontaneous visions, close the eyes

and press with the fingers on the eyelids and the eyeballs. We will

see lights. These are not actual Thodgal visions, but just a kind of

introduction. Thodgal visions are natural and not artificial. They

are not deliberately created, as a visualization is, by the mind. In a

dark room, we can also have ordinary visions that are not

Thodgal. But for our vision to develop, we must employ the

Dzogchen methods. We must understand that these spontaneous

visions exist in, and develop in, the Natural State. However, all of

these visions are illusions; there is nothing substantial there.

 

Thodgal vision may at first appear different from our normal

everyday vision, but we should realize that these two kinds of

vision ultimately have the same nature. They are both projections

and until we realize this, we are not ready to do Thodgal practice.

In Dzogchen, we are introduced to there being one source,

rather than Two Truths. For example, we put our fingers in our

ears and what happens? We hear self-originated sounds (rang

sgra). In order to hear, normally we need the ear. But here we

hear a sound, and not through the ear consciousness. Or again,

press the fingers on the lids covering the eyeballs, then suddenly

release them and open the eyes. We see self-originated lights

(rang 'od) and self-originated forms and colors, technically called

"rays" (rang zer). We see them when the eyes are closed and we

continue to see them when the eyes have opened. When we have

our eyes open, we usually see through our eye consciousness but,

in this case, the lights and colors are not seen by means of the eye

consciousness; they are only seen by Rigpa. This is only an example

in order to introduce us to Thodgal.

 

In Thodgal, everything that appears is natural and spontaneous;

it is not a visualization made by mind. It is not something

artificial. Dzogchen just does what is natural, therefore, it

represents a much shorter path to enlightenment. Besides Kadak,

or primordial purity or Shunyata, the Natural State has this

quality of Lhundrub or spontaneous manifestation, and this is not

something recognized by Madhyamaka. The method of Madhyamaka

represents a via negativa (negation), but it neglects the

positive side of the Natural State. Dzogchen, on the other hand,

emphasizes both equally, because Kadak and Lhundrub are Yermed,

that is, inseparable in the Natural State.

 

Thodgal possesses methods using various sources of light,

such as sunlight, moonlight, lamplight, crystals, and so on. Then

there are methods for gazing into the clear, empty sky and for

retreats in total darkness. In all of these cases, the Thodgal visions

that arise are not perceived by the eye consciousness, but by our

Rigpa. Although sunlight, and so on, represent secondary causes

for the arising of the visions, the visions themselves do not arise

from some external source; they arise from within us.

There are no limits to these visions. Certainly visions of

deities may arise, but impure karmic visions may also arise, especially

at first. But whatever visions arise, they arise spontaneously

and naturally. According to some Dzogchen teachings, we are

instructed to do the practice for seven sessions, signifying the six

realms of rebirth, plus the Bardo. And so, visions of animals,

ghosts, demons, and many other kinds of worldly beings may

arise. According to the dark retreat found in the Zhang-zhung

Nyan-gyud, there are seven sessions, but these are not according

to the six realms.

 

Visions of thigleys (thig-le}, or spheres of light, arise and

inside them we may see deities, such as the famous Zhitro (zhikhro},

or Peaceful and Wrathful Deities. But this is not at all the

same as the Kyerim and the Gyulu practices described in the

Tantras because they are things created by the mind. Rather, the

Thodgal visions arise out of the Natural State naturally and

spontaneously. The Natural State, although diffused throughout

the physical body, is principally located in the hollow space

within the physical heart (tsitta}. The Thodgal visions, even in

dark retreat, appear only in front of us because the translucent

Kati channel links the heart to the eyes. Inside the eyes, we find

two separate channels, one is the vehicle for the normal operation

of the eye consciousness, known as the optic nerve, and the other

is the Kati channel which functions as the passageway for the

movement of Rigpa. The Kati goes up from the hollow in the

physical heart to the back of the brain and then divides into two

before entering into the eyes. This Kati is not used for the normal

functioning of vision. It is called the translucent crystalline

channel Kati (ka-ti shel gyi rtsa). In Thodgal, the visions arise in

the heart, pass along the Kati channel, emerge from the eyes, and

are perceived in the space immediately in front of us. It is like

having a lamp inside a hollow earthen vessel with two holes on

one of its faces. The light inside is then seen in the darkness

outside the vase, but its source is in the interior.

 

With the practice of Thodgal, our visions develop and

gradually become more stable. At first we may see normal things

like trees, mountains, and so on. Later we will most likely see

letters, deities, and so on. At first these visions will not be stable,

but will move about quite a bit. Moreover, we may only see parts

of the deities, such as a face, or a torso. But with the third stage in

the development of vision, we will see deities in yab-yum and

entire mandalas, and all of this will be complete and perfect and

bright. At the fourth stage, which is known as consummation

(zad-pa), all the visions dissolve and all that remains is the Natural

State. Since there are no more obscurations, there is nothing

more to appear.

 

However, Thodgal is not like Tantra where we must do much

visualization practice first in order for visions of the Yidams to

appear. If the visions arise from some positive karmic causes, such

as Kyerim, then we do need to practice in a special way. In that

case, the resultant visions would be conditioned by our previous

visualization practice. But these would not be Thodgal visions

because they arise from causes created by the mind.

Furthermore, we must compare our Thodgal visions with the

vision of ordinary life in order to discover that they come from

the same source. The Thodgal visions are insubstantial. We can

easily see that they are illusions. We see them come and we see

them go. But our normal life vision appears to be very stable and

seemingly solid. We think that this vision is real, but this is only

our ignorance. So the practice of Thodgal provides us with an

example. Thodgal vision is like a key to the realization that normal

life is also a projection and an illusion. We can bring the

knowledge gained from Thodgal practice to bear on the vision of

normal life. We compare them and we discover that all of our socalled

normal life is an illusion. If we cannot make this comparison,

then perhaps it is better just to watch TV. Now while we

are in the Natural State, we do not do any checking and examining

because this is the work of the mind, but at other times we

can examine the various qualities of the visions and compare

them with the vision of ordinary life.

 

Through making this comparison of the Thodgal visions with

normal vision, we gradually come to sense that the external world

is equally unreal. Our ordinary life seems to have the same quality

as the Thodgal visions, that is to say, as unreal and as insubstantial.

This culminates with the third stage in the development of

vision. The visions of the deities and mandalas come to overlay

and even replace our ordinary impure karmic vision. At the

fourth stage, all of these visions dissolve and go back to their

source. They return to the Natural State and there is nothing left

except the Natural State. If we die at a time when we have

realized the first stage, then in the Bardo and in our next life we

will meet the masters and the teachings again and again, and so

continue to practice until we attain liberation. If we die at a time

when we have realized the final stages, we will be reborn in a

pure dimension.

 

The Thodgal visions come spontaneously and without

anticipation. When they go, they leave no traces. Our keeping in

the Natural State purifies all obscurations and the main obscuration

is ignorance. The three principal methods are through

sunlight, total darkness, and empty space. But in order to practice

Thodgal, first we must realize the Natural State. So Thekchod,

which means just remaining in the Natural State undistracted by

thoughts, -is something that is always necessary in Dzogchen

practice. If visions arise and we become attached to them, then

this is no different from Samsara. When we have visions in the

practice of Thodgal, we have no grasping ('dzin-pa) at them

because we are in the Natural State. In the vision of daily life, on

the contrary, we are constantly grasping at one thing after another.

Through the perfection of Thekchod, we may even be able

to think and to do Tantric practice while still remaining in the

Natural State, and then this will be like gazing at the moon

reflected on the sea.

 

Development of Visions

Without Thekchod, we cannot practice Thodgal. Visions may

come, but they will not be Thodgal visions. First we must practice

Thekchod and make our remaining in the Natural State stable,

then we can go on to practice Thodgal. In this way our visions

will be stable. In Thodgal both pure and impure visions can come,

but gradually the visions will become clearer and clearer, and

then more and more integrated with our normal vision. In the

end this integrated vision will dissolve into the Natural State,

both Thodgal vision and normal vision.

 

The ultimate purpose of practicing Thodgal is to realize the

Rainbow Body of Light. This occurs after all of our vision has

been integrated. Our physical body is also part of our karmic

vision, so when all of our vision dissolves into the Natural State,

our physical body dissolves into empty space. The method for

realizing the Rainbow Body ('ja' Ius) may be either gradual or

instantaneous. In terms of its gradual realization, we speak of the

four stages in the development of vision, or Nangwa zhi (snangba

bzhi). These are as follows:

 

1. The vision of the visible manifestation of Reality (bon-nyid

mngon-sum). At this initial stage only small thigleys, or tiny

spheres of rainbow light, appear in the sunlight.

 

2. The vision of the increasing of experiences. Now chains and

networks of thigleys appear. Also, the faces and torsos of

deities may appear inside the thigleys.

 

3. The vision of developing to the full measure of Awareness.

This stage represents the full development of the pure visions

of the deities and the mandalas, including the Peaceful and

Wrathful Deities. Some of the thigleys may be as small as a

mustard seed, while others are as large as a shield.

 

4. The vision of the final consummation (mthar-thug zad-pa).

All of the visions dissolve back into the Natural State, and

only that remains.

 

These visions are not always stable. When they dissolve

spontaneously, it may be a sign that we are ready to realize the

Rainbow Body. Visions have two alternative qualities: pure and

impure. At the final stage, all of our visions are pure. But at the

moment our normal everyday life vision is impure. There are two

doors that must be opened: the pure and the impure. Inside them

there are four doors apiece, making a total of eight doors. This is

according to what kind of visions come.

 

Thodgal visions arise spontaneously from our Natural State,

and how they develop depends on our individual capacity, level

of purification, and so on. But if, for example, a master appears

before us and gives us some teaching, this is not a Thodgal vision

but a pure vision (dag snang). It is conditioned and brought about

by some cause or karmic link. Examples of this are the visions

some T ertons have had of Guru Padmasambhava. These pure

visions come about because of a cause or seed planted in the

Terton's stream of consciousness in a previous life when he was a

disciple in personal contact with Guru Rinpoche. A Thodgal vision,

on the other hand, has no external cause; it arises solely

from within, from out of one's Natural State residing in the heart.

It is natural ~nd spontaneous, without any antecedent cause. It

represents the free spontaneous creativity (rtsal) inherent in the

Natural State which is our innate Buddha-nature.

 

The Four Lamps

In the practice of Thodgal, we speak of four lights or Four

Lamps (sgron-ma bzhi), or sometimes of Six Lamps (sgron-ma

drug). These Four Lamps are as follows:

 

1. The lamp of the self-originated wisdom (shes-rab rang-byung

gi sgron-ma)

 

2. The lamp of the completely pure dimension of space (dbyings

rnam-dag gi sgron-ma)

 

3. The lamp of the (globe-like eye of) water that lassos everything

at a distance (rgyang zhags chu'i sgron-ma), and

 

4. The lamp of the empty spheres of light (thig-le stong-pa'i

sgron-ma).

 

The First Lamp or light (sgron-ma) is Thekchod. We first

need this lamp if we are to see anything. Thekchod is the

fundamental practice and the principal practice. It means continuing

in the Natural State with stability. This is intrinsic immediate

awareness (rig-pa). Here Self-originated Wisdom (shes-rab

rang-byung) means not the discriminating wisdom (shes-rab) of

the Sutra system; in this context, it means Rigpa, the clarity

aspect, in union with Kunzhi, the emptiness aspect. It is explained

as being like the empty, open sky illuminated by sunlight.

Certainly we must understand that the Natural State is empty, but

also that it has three qualities and these are inseparable. First, this

emptiness is immaterial and insubstantial, and so it is like the sky

or Namkha (nam-mkha', sky, space). That is its quality. Whatever

we do or take from it, this emptiness is always there as the Base.

 

Even if we fill everything up and make clutter everywhere, this

emptiness of space is still there as the container of everything.

Whatever we do, Shunyata is always empty; it is not any bigger or

any smaller by virtue of what it contains. Whatever we put into it

or take out of it, it remains the same and undiminished as the

Base. This aspect is called Ying (dbyings) or dimension. It is the

dimension in which everything originates and happens. And this

emptiness never changes whatever we do; it is never increased or

diminished. That aspect is called Long (klong) or vast expanse.

These are the three qualities to emptiness: space (nam-mkha'),

dimension (dbyings), and vast expanse (klong).

 

As for the Second Lamp: it is somewhat like watching a film

show in the cinema hall. The Thodgal visions appear to manifest

in the space before us, just as the cinema show does. When we do

Thodgal practice, we gaze into the clear open sky and focus our

gaze in this space without blinking. Then, at the horizon, or the

tops of the trees, or on the side of the window frame, wherever

we are gazing, we find that the space at this border becomes

whiter and, at the center of our vision, it grows darker. If we are

gazing out through a window, for example, we find that the sky

will be lighter and whiter next to the window frame and darker at

the center. As we continue to gaze, this light part around the

border or at the edge becomes larger. However, the visions will

only appear in the darker center. This is the dimension in which

the Thodgal visions manifest. And they will be like the cinema

pictures projected onto the screen in front of us.

 

The Third Lamp refers to the physical eye as a doorway. The

Kati channel connects the physical heart to the physical eye

organs. In dark retreat, the visions are clearer and brighter than in

daylight, but the principle is the same. In Thodgal practice, the

eye organ is given this rather unusual name (rgyang zhags chu'i

sgron-ma), where rgyang means "distance" or "at a distance",

zhags means "lasso" or a rope with a noose at the end, and chu

means "water." The eyeball is filled with water, so chu refers to

the eyeball. When we gaze into space, our visions appear at some

distance from us and our sight goes out to them and grasps them

like lassoing a wild horse. We watch our visions develop with full

awareness. That is the meaning of rgyang zhags. The eye organ is

connected with the kidney which is ruled by the water element,

therefore "water." According to ancient Bonpo medical science,

the outer organs are controlled by the inner organs. This information,

such as the correspondences eye-kidney-water element,

nose-lung-air element, tongue-spleen-earth element, and so on, is

given in the account of embryology found in the Zhang-zhung

Nyan-gyud and elsewhere.

 

As for the Fourth Lamp, it is like small white or black spots

seen in the sky, or like the rainbow thigleys seen in sunlight. At

first they are very tiny, but then they develop because we remain

in the Natural State. Their nature is empty (stong-pa). They are

called thigley because thig means "essence" as well as "a line

drawn on a paper" to demarcate a mandala, and signifies being

related to the essence or Natural State, and le means "very

clearly," that it is very bright and clear. Therefore the meaning of

thigle is that it is clear and connected with the Natural State.

 

The Rainbow Body

To become a real Jalupa ('ja'-lus-pa) means that we have

practiced Thodgal. These visions are not specifically created by

the mind, but appear spontaneously in the presence of secondary

causes like sunlight, the open, empty sky, and so on. They arise

naturally and spontaneously from the Natural State, and no

Kyerim or Dzogrim practice must be done first as a preparation.

We only need to stabilize our Thekchod practice. Then the

visions come automatically. Gradually all of the Peaceful and

Wrathful deities appear to us and these visions develop until

completion. Then they dissolve again into the Natural State.

 

This final stage in the development of vision is called the

Exhaustion of Reality (bon-nyid zad-pa). Nevertheless these

visions have the same quality and the same source as our normal

vision in everyday life. Because our material body is part of our

karmic vision and has the same source as the Thodgal visions, at

the time when all of our visions dissolve, our material body will

also dissolve. This occurs at the point of actual death when the

impure elements of our material body will revert back (ru-log)

into the subtle pure forms of the elements, which are clear,

coloured lights. These lights manifest as rainbows, which then

dissolve into the space of the sky. All that remains behind at the

end of the process are the practitioner's clothes, hair and nails,

because these things have not been suffused with consciousness.

The material body had been part of one's impure karmic vision

but now, for the practitioner, the pure visions become the actual

Jalupa or Rainbow Body, which is the real Sambhogakaya and

Nirmanakaya, and one becomes perfectly purified.

 

In terms of Dzogchen, the Dharmakaya is realized through

the practice of Thekchod, whereas the Form Body, that is, the

Sambhogkaya and Nirmanakaya, is realized through the practice

of Thodgal. The attaining of the Rainbow Body by a master is a

sign or indication that this has occurred. But this is not the end,

even though liberation and enlightenment have been attained.

 

The Jalupa can subsequently reappear, even appearing as substantially

material, to sentient beings in order to teach them the

Dharma. However the Sambhogakaya can only be seen by the

Aryas, that is, the Great Bodhisattvas who have ascended the first

through the ninth stage of the path. They can see the Sambhogakaya

and hear the teachings. But ordinary sentient beings, their

minds still obscured with defilements, cannot see or hear the

Sambhogakaya. Therefore the Nirmanakaya manifests to them

and reveals itself in time and history, generally in human form.

 

END QUOTE

 

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

Hi Cat,

It is wonderful that you see runes/runic symbols at the third eye! Can you keep that up by just letting go?

 

I think you should really read this. It is from Tenzin Namdak's book called Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings, which I linked to previously.

If you are getting visions during meditation, especially shapes and symbols, you have managed to realize the natural state, the thekchod part. Now the task becomes to stay in that state and dissolve the visions

 

Yup its all about meditative visions.

 

Just like Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond.

Edited October 22, 2013 by RongzomFan

[yabyum24]

I think this covers it nicely:

[9th]

Yes it is important to realize the distinction made in the practice of dzogchen, which is specifically not a transformation. Preliminary tantric methods of "transforming poison into medicine" no longer apply. Poison and medicine remain as they are, and neither are harmful or beneficial.

 

"Resting" in the essential nature of awareness (rigpa), implies an ongoing activity that has been called "self-liberation" of phenomena. The most common metaphor is either that of the mirror or the crystal ball. Whatever appears in front of the mirror is reflected within it, but when it leaves, the mirror remains unchanged. If you set a clear crystal ball on a table with a plaid tablecloth, the crystal ball appears plaid as well, but when you remove it, it is still the same clear crystal ball. In both instances the phenomena leaves no trace, and yet the infinite potential of reflection is always present. Recognizing the basis or ground of perception is discovering this quality of awareness. Resting in it is just that. That is why pointing-out instruction comes first, which becomes the path, which stabilizes as the fruit. Rigpa never changes, only your relationship with it does.

 

Visions or not, that really has nothing to do with it. It is not about any particular experience, but rather the inherent possibility of it at all. Trekcho and togal are not "beginner" practices, especially if someone lacks the facility of "calm abiding" which is trained by shamatha or zhine. In some cases, preliminary training may not be necessary, but that is extremely rare. It may also be advisable to gain some facility (or even mastery) of the transformational practices (of visualization, mantrayana, pranayama, etc.) as well.

 

Even though a return to the origin does not require a journey, how we have become what we are is the essence of where we are going as a composite of elemental processes. That is why discovering the root of the natural state is the same as realizing the body of light, which is the primordial source of phenomena itself.

[hagar]

The best description of actually the experience of briefly touching upon the natural state I have ever come across, that was not heavily permeated by any conceptual baggage is in this appearance on Conan by Louis CK:

 

See the whole thing. Best dharma talk I have heard for years, right there on prime time...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IHc8cdq_k

[9th]

Louis CK is pretty funny but extremely overrated IMHO. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

"Perhaps those masters are just indulging in being masters," don Juan said without looking at me. "I'm not a master, I'm only a warrior. So I really don't know what a master feels like."

 

"But maybe I'm revealing things I shouldn't, don Juan."

 

"It doesn't matter what one reveals or what one keeps to oneself," he said. "Everything we do, everything we are, rests on our personal power. If we have enough of it, one word uttered to us might be sufficient to change the course of our lives. But if we don't have enough personal power, the most magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference."

 

 

- Castaneda

 

 

[Simple_Jack]

I'm fine with finding out the intellectual part late in game, which is just as well because that seems to be the way of it for this one. I only started to study taoism at all to find out what it was that had happened to me, and seeing it written in the alchemical texts was comforting.

 

It's really not necessary to learn in depth about the cosmology and terminological origins for these practices, unless:

 

1. You plan on becoming a teacher.

 

2. For general knowledge and/or scholarly pursuits.

 

What matters is receiving instructions from a qualified guru. Traditionally, in Vajrayana, while on retreat, a person would receive some instructions on practice and then go off to meditate on these instructions; they would then report back after an X amount of time or after certain signs of meditative experiences. Based off of that, they either would be told to go back and meditate some more or receive further instructions. In any case, you don't have to go that route, since you could just receive transmission from ChNN and attend retreats or watch webcasts, thereby learning all you would need to know in order to make progress.

 

Although, scholarly pursuits do serve their purpose as Loppon Malcolm pointed out on this forum:

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&start=380

Mustang Cave wrote:

It always surprises me that buddhist scholars study in order to establish orthodoxy.

 

Malcolm: No. Scholars study in order eliminate unnecessary concepts, like all the concepts you have been spinning in this thread about Dzogchen.

 

It is because we encounter people such as you, loaded with concepts, that we resort to addressing the very concepts from which you claim to be free but in which you are nevertheless trapped.

 

For the record, rigpa is not synonymous with the "natural state". Furthermore, abiding in a state devoid of conceptual thought, can still mean being bound by concepts i.e. signs and characteristics.

 

So helpful as ever ... would it kill you to explain your point of view?

 

He really shouldn't be expected to, since technically, he should only be talking about this between people who have received transmission.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[三江源]

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Edited June 10, 2014 by cat

[9th]

It's all Ati. Now, lets be practical.

 

 

- Chogyam Trungpa

 

[Flolfolil]

Lets try to keep this on topic and civil, everyone

 

thanks

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yup its all about meditative visions.

 

Just like Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond.

Alwaysoff,

Yes it is all about visions but not in the way you have understood it.

 

Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond is about samadhi, the jhanas and the achievements which are derived from fixing the the attention on objects like the breath, the nimittas, the counterpart signs etc, realizing the jhanas and then after, using the empowered mind to perform insight inquiry.

 

In Dozgchen, such a constriction of awareness does not permit the natural state (rigpa) to spontaneously produce visions as the open emptiness and appearances are not realized.

 

This is how Tsoknyi Rinpoche puts it:

 

From "Ground, Path, and Fruition - Teachings of Tsoknyi Rinpoce on mind and mind essence" - Tony Duff

 

 

How is it when you are in a one-sided emptiness? You are stuck in emptiness. Because you are stuck, nothing can function in your experience because you are not giving appearances a chance to rise. And, when there are no appearances coming, the wisdom of a buddha, the omniscient quality of a buddha, cannot come because you have pushed it away.

 

Previously, I mentioned The Great Unified Wisdom and that is what we are talking about here. The kind of rigpa that we want to develop is the one which has this kind of quality. This does not mean that there are other kinds of rigpa but I mention it because

you might think that being isolated in emptiness or being isolated in appearances is rigpa. That sort of isolation is not rigpa because rigpa has the qualities of emptiness and appearance unified. The experience of rigpa is unique; there are other experiences like it but none are rigpa itself. For example, having a meditation experience while strictly concentrating on the emptiness aspect or having a meditation experience while concentrating on the clarity is not rigpa; only when the two are unified is it rigpa. Sometimes when doing rigpa meditation you will see only the emptiness part and sometimes you will see only the appearances part; in each case you might think, "Oh, there's rigpa" but in fact it is not rigpa. You need to see the unity.

 

 

So you see, the appearances are very important. The visions are very important.

 

Again, I should mention that they are not talking about visualization, nor are they talking about grasping the appearances. The more one grasps at a vision or an appearance, the more solid it becomes and this enforces the dualistic subject-object relation.

 

In Dzogchen, when the visions arise, you just let them be and they will dissolve on their own. That is the difference between what Ajahn Brahm teaches and what Tenzin Namdak teaches.

 

And, when visions or appearances arise, it is a good indicator that you have realized some form of emptiness.

 

Edited October 29, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice