Wu wei from a qi perspective

[baiqi]

So almost everything is in the title...

 

There have been many looooooooooooong discussions about what Wuwei is (and isn't), but I'd like to focus on the " qi" aspect of this, not just on the philosophical part.

 

This can also be the link between daoist philosophy, as read in the DDJ and others, and the qigong (neigong, meditations, IMA etc.).

 

I noticed that my qi would rise when I was doing "wrong actions" from a taoist point of view. Usually, this means that I am - even very lightly- taken away by some kind of emotion: anger (or a slight frustration) fear (or even surprise), or excitement.

 

In my bagua walking the circle practice, I notice that if this happens, I lose power/balance. It may not be obvious from the outside, but I know it.

 

The solution that seem to work is relax, and slow down.

 

"Slowing down" doesn't mean that my actions will actually be slower , but I stop being in a rush.

 

This is quite hard to explain, because it is more about feeling it than just talking about it.

 

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

 

 

[Chang]

As regards your circle walking you will be at your most stable and balanced when in a state of energised relaxation or sung. at this point your centre of balance would be at the dantien.

 

Anger, fear or exitement would bring about an increase of tension in the body and this would raise the centre of balance (usually up between the shoulder blades) thereby bringing loss of rooting.

 

It is not therefor your chi that is rising but your centre of balance in this example.

[Protector]

Qi follows the course of less resistance

Hence the epic wu wei and qi connection

I could find a better quote explaining it but you should read a book about it,

they call it Tao Te Ching

 

 

 

I can't stop talking this way HOW DO I TURN IT OFF

[spiraltao]

I look at freezing up during stepping as a CNS glitch. Meditation will smooth them out. Proper circle walking is meditation. So walk smooth, I often start SUPER slow and loose, for me the loose ness is the hardest part and I suppose this is where the chi flow comes in, I had made generalization in my mind that SUNG = wu wei or yuan qi. Although I can see possible flaws in each.

 

However, i will not derail any further as I do not fully understand the qi perspective of wu wei.

[baiqi]

Anger, fear or exitement would bring about an increase of tension in the body and this would raise the centre of balance (usually up between the shoulder blades) thereby bringing loss of rooting.

yes.

 

 

It is not therefor your chi that is rising but your centre of balance in this example.

I think the two are related. The qi rising makes ultimately makes the body's centre of balance up.

 

This, of course is not limited to walking the circle, but occurs in almost every area in life. Whenever I'm stressed by something, I can feel "imbalance" even if I am sitting, for example.

I am trying to be stable, rooted before I do anything.

 

 

I could find a better quote explaining it but you should read a book about it,

they call it Tao Te Ching

I have heard of this book,too. However, my point here is more on "how do you apply what it says".

 

 

I had made generalization in my mind that SUNG = wu wei or yuan qi

I would say that song leads to yuanqi, which can lead to wuwei when turned into action.

[Marblehead]

This can also be the link between daoist philosophy, as read in the DDJ and others, and the qigong (neigong, meditations, IMA etc.).

And one can see this ever clearer in The Chuang Tzu. Care to join us? (Even if only when we are discussing thse points of yours.)

[Marblehead]

I can't stop talking this way HOW DO I TURN IT OFF

If you remain true to your 'true nature' you can't turn it off. Sorry.

[Marblehead]

I look at freezing up during stepping as a CNS glitch. Meditation will smooth them out. Proper circle walking is meditation. So walk smooth, I often start SUPER slow and loose, for me the loose ness is the hardest part and I suppose this is where the chi flow comes in, I had made generalization in my mind that SUNG = wu wei or yuan qi. Although I can see possible flaws in each.

 

However, i will not derail any further as I do not fully understand the qi perspective of wu wei.

I don't think you derailed. You posed questions. That's good. Your mention of meditation is important to the subject at hand.

[Protector]

I have heard of this book,too. However, my point here is more on "how do you apply what it says".

 

Many people lost their minds doing that...

 

 

If you remain true to your 'true nature' you can't turn it off. Sorry.

 

...and it looks like I'm next

[Seeker of Wisdom]

The secret lies in uniting stillness and motion.

 

If you allow angry, etc, thoughts to flow through your mind unimpeded like clouds in the sky, not attacking them directly, being still in the flurry, your mind will heal itself and there will be corresponding changes in your chi.

 

Obviously we aim to not have angry, etc, thoughts, but stamping on them doesn't help. Let them be, maybe gently acknowledge that they are unskillful and cultivate the opposite, and the natural luminosity of the mind does more uprooting these tendencies than conscious will can.

 

Then kinks in your chi will straighten out with no forceful effort on your part. In this process it may seem your chi is temporarily unbalanced... in reality it is working towards flowing smoother than ever.

 

Letting the river carry you aimlessly or fighting the current both lead nowhere. Nudge yourself down the wanted tributaries. This is judo, not boxing or being a mat.

 

A relevant thread: http://thetaobums.com/topic/31033-resting-the-mind-in-its-natural-state/

Edited August 14, 2013 by Seeker of Tao

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

 

"Qi perspective".

 

 

 

 

Observations:

Equivalencies:

Hot and cold; heat travels from a warmer body to a cooler body.

Wet and dry; moisture flows from pools into drier masses.

Electric and magnetic; electricity coagulates where magnetism flows.

Body and mind; the body follows intent set forth in the mind.

 

My thoughts:

 

The Qi flows where the Wu Wei goes.

[Marblehead]

My thoughts:

 

The Qi flows where the Wu Wei goes.

You done good!

 

 

 

[Wayfarer]

So almost everything is in the title...

 

There have been many looooooooooooong discussions about what Wuwei is (and isn't), but I'd like to focus on the " qi" aspect of this, not just on the philosophical part.

 

This can also be the link between daoist philosophy, as read in the DDJ and others, and the qigong (neigong, meditations, IMA etc.).

 

I noticed that my qi would rise when I was doing "wrong actions" from a taoist point of view. Usually, this means that I am - even very lightly- taken away by some kind of emotion: anger (or a slight frustration) fear (or even surprise), or excitement.

 

In my bagua walking the circle practice, I notice that if this happens, I lose power/balance. It may not be obvious from the outside, but I know it.

 

The solution that seem to work is relax, and slow down.

 

"Slowing down" doesn't mean that my actions will actually be slower , but I stop being in a rush.

 

This is quite hard to explain, because it is more about feeling it than just talking about it.

 

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

 

I think you describe this rather well Baiqi as does everyone here really. I'd like to echo something Seeker of Tao says from my own rather simplistic point of view...(and at the risk of sounding like a broken record!)

 

Your slowing down/not-slowing down quote is exactly how it feels. Stillness is referred to all over Taoism but to me it does not refer to being still, it refers to being settled. When we are settled our energy becomes calm, when we are disturbed emotionally it feels (to me) like something raising from the abdomen area into the chest (hence why people experience shortness of breath when stressed I suppose).

 

I firmly believe, from experience that we have a metaphorical well within us, where its base is at the lower cauldron and the rim is by the solar plexus...if we experience much settled-ness in our life it is as though something drops into this space...this I feel is what is meant by the energy and spirit (tiger and dragon) copulating in the Crimson Hall (around the solar plexus, if I've remembered its name correctly) and the subsequent energy "returning to the root" (of stillness) as it passes through the organs, tan tien, and below. This returning to the root is a secondary meaning to V16 of the TTC/DDJ. So you are sensing this - this is absolutely vital to your cultivation because you are beginning to Notice. 'Being aware of this' has a colourful name too but I forget, something like Entering the path of the Mystic Gate??? What you are becoming aware of is the presence of that which is Immortal; which occurs within us and the same feeling/presence is in things outside of us...so you can feel it there too just as clearly.

 

So my take on this is to just forget about Qi and where it is moving, don't even think about dragons, tigers and hidden chambers just fill your day with tranquillity where possible and when emotions start to 'disturb' your peace - return to stillness, feel yourself spirit or whatever sinking lower down then eventually the 'contents' of this well/cauldron clears, when it does you 'see' what is there. What could be more simple lol?

 

Heath

[steve]

I noticed that my qi would rise when I was doing "wrong actions" from a taoist point of view. Usually, this means that I am - even very lightly- taken away by some kind of emotion: anger (or a slight frustration) fear (or even surprise), or excitement.

In my bagua walking the circle practice, I notice that if this happens, I lose power/balance. It may not be obvious from the outside, but I know it.

 

The solution that seem to work is relax, and slow down.

 

"Slowing down" doesn't mean that my actions will actually be slower , but I stop being in a rush.

 

This is quite hard to explain, because it is more about feeling it than just talking about it.

 

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

 

I think what you are talking about is related to distraction.

Taijiquan is great for pointing this up and working on it.

Also, Daoist meditation is very good for this.

 

The 'mind of intent' or Yi needs to be engaged to maintain continuity, particularly when doing something very slowly or something that requires constant adjustment (like walking the circle).

As they say, where the Yi goes, the Qi follows.

 

Slowing down without the actions being any slower sounds to me like more mindfulness, more engaging, more focus of the Yi in whatever is being done, be it physical or mental. When the awareness and attention are engaged, it feels like we are moving slower yet that's not necessarily the case.

 

Good observation and working diligently with this is bound to enhance your practice.

As Anthony Demello likes to say... "Awareness, awareness, awareness"

[dawei]

To me: Wu Wei is the first potential mover; Qi is the first kinetic mover.

 

From a certain point of view, they are the side-by-side when you connect to the idea.

[dwai]

I find it in a simple thing like standing. When I stand without aspirations to create/re-create any particular state that I've experienced before (something a lot of people tend to do I think), the qi rises naturally from the earth.

 

When I stand with the intention of creating/recreating any particular state, it doesn't rise naturally from the earth.

 

Several years ago, when I was doing the tai chi forms in seated position, I starting feeling the qi very palpably. The taichi ball I was playing with, would expand and contract with associated somatic effects.

 

Next time i was in class, I excitedly told my teacher about the "experience". He smiled and said "now that you have spoken about it, you won't experience it again in general, but you will experience it again, when you are least expecting it".

 

That was so true...and so I try to practice as follows -- "don't try anything...it will happen when it has to, on it's own, naturally".

[Uroboros]

I work with my Qi and cultivation in a way that may or may not be close to Wu Wei.

 

It stems from willing-ness. Not willful-ness.

 

So say, I want my Qi to work on my spine. I would have the intention of just that and just keep a space within me for that to happen whenever it wants to, however it wants to.

 

No forcing yet the force that manifests is powerful. It is a gentle way.

 

Similiar to BKF Water Method of dissolving. Active Waiting.

 

I have found many things happen without the need to force them. I have become far more sensitive to my own system by practicing this way of living/ inter-acting.

 

 

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

Next time i was in class, I excitedly told my teacher about the "experience". He smiled and said "now that you have spoken about it, you won't experience it again in general, but you will experience it again, when you are least expecting it".

 

That was so true...and so I try to practice as follows -- "don't try anything...it will happen when it has to, on it's own, naturally".

The thought that entered my brain at reading this was "Empty-minded living".

[joeblast]

I find it in a simple thing like standing. When I stand without aspirations to create/re-create any particular state that I've experienced before (something a lot of people tend to do I think), the qi rises naturally from the earth.

 

When I stand with the intention of creating/recreating any particular state, it doesn't rise naturally from the earth.

 

Several years ago, when I was doing the tai chi forms in seated position, I starting feeling the qi very palpably. The taichi ball I was playing with, would expand and contract with associated somatic effects.

 

Next time i was in class, I excitedly told my teacher about the "experience". He smiled and said "now that you have spoken about it, you won't experience it again in general, but you will experience it again, when you are least expecting it".

 

That was so true...and so I try to practice as follows -- "don't try anything...it will happen when it has to, on it's own, naturally".

I can relate similar things from longevity breathing - you keep focused on the fundamental things, no matter what state arises. The states do not arise because of themselves, they arise because there has been a proper application and harmonization of the fundamentals. Lose the focus on the fundamentals and the vastly heightened states falter.

 

Focus on process, not outcome

[dwai]

The thought that entered my brain at reading this was "Empty-minded living".

And that's a good way to be

I wish I could be that way always...

[Marblehead]

And that's a good way to be

I wish I could be that way always...

Yeah, tell me about it! I am fully retired but I still have responsibilities because I have attachments. No, I don't want to release those attachments but I try to not hold them so close that they interfer with my living spontaneously whenever possible.

[effilang]

Wu Wei is effortless doing.

 

Because of this, some people think that you cannot do anything in Wu Wei, that it always has to do you, but that's not the case.

 

Once the state of Wu Wei arises, it allows the extreme concentration of the mental faculties and allows you to perform much more effective feats of skill, whether it be projecting Qi, moving Qi, gathering Qi, mixing Qi etc.

 

When you achieve Wu Wei you will notice that you are in a different state of mind. I'm not sure if it's a different mind or just a different state, but it will feel as though you are in a different state of mental function, one where there are no thoughts and desires.

 

But this doesn't mean you can't use your WILL to manifest action while in Wu Wei. You can!

 

What happens feels as though the clear mind separates from the intention and they become two independent things. Then your awareness sort of splits in two. On one hand you have a completely clear mind without any form of emotions, intentions or desires, and this is the Wu Wei state. Then on the other hand you have an active WILL (Yi) part of you that is free to direct your body and heart to perform external and internal things.

 

It is quite wonderful. Sort of like you hook up to a an empty source of infinite stillness where nothing arises and at the same time you maintain connection to the part of you which can then utilize that clarity to execute actions in the Tai Ji.

 

I don't know if this makes any sense at all. This is my experience of it.

 

Wu Wei is a state which amplifies the potential for action by the fact that it is a state of non-birth or pre-cognitive-birth of the mind. Once in this state any action you manifest through the will can be executed at it's maximum power because it starts from the state of 0% and can then reach 100% as it manifests, thus realizing it's true potential.

 

When we are not in a Wu Wei state and use our will to command reality, it is a weak manifestation of our will, because it is born from a state of post-cognitive-birth, where the mind is already manifested from stillness.

 

I feel like a crazy person writing this, but it's a tricky one to explain...

 

Wu Wei is a state of RAW potential. You see, our true mind already knows how to lead us back to the Wu Ji, but it is constantly interrupted by the activity of the acquired mind.

 

Wu Wei is also there. It is like a mirror reflecting the Tao. The thoughts of the acquired mind are like the dust on the mirror obscuring the light from bouncing off the mirror and unto us.

 

So, when we relax the body and mind, we wipe the dust off and as we remain in this state we establish a direct connection to the Wu Ji.

 

But just like with a real mirror, if you let it alone for a while, dust will gather.

So to strengthen the connection to the Wuji we must remain in a Wu Wei state regularly and eventually in an uninterrupted state by integrating Wu Wei through all the actions of our day.

 

To use another analogy. In martial arts. The fighter who is constricted to a rigid form is only effective in reacting to certain types of attacks. But the fighter who stands in a neutral stance can react to everything.

 

The first one can only manifest limited potential because his starting state is ALREADY a manifestation of 0%. So he may think it's 0% but its actually say 50%. But he doesn't know it. You see, he has been programmed to assume that his fighting stance is 0%, and everything springs forth form there.

 

The second fighter who is in a neutral position, comes much closer to 0% potential in his state before defending or attacking. Thus, his moves can be quicker, more effective and he can react to anything.

 

I would imagine that was the philosophy behind Bruce Lee's JKD.

 

So Wu Wei is just like that. It brings the mind and body to 0% potential and when it's at zero, it makes ALL it's faculties available, both of the mind and of the body. Once this state of submission is presented to the original-mind, it will start transforming the body and mind to bring it closer to the Wu Ji, the very state that the Wu Wei concept reflects.

 

That is why Wu Wei was taught. Because Wu Wei is the one thing we can achieve by way of our will, that brings us closer to what it actually represents; Wu Ji. It was very smart thinking...

 

The original mind is like a skilful artist. It knows how to paint the masterpiece, but it won't start a new painting without first cleaning the studio. It won't do anything until it has all the brushes it needs. It won't mix any paint until it has all the paint it needs. The canvas must be there too. The windows must be open. The music playing. The incense burning etc.

 

When all the faculties of the body and mind are made available through the attainment of Wu Wei, then the potential can return to 0% and the master artist can start painting the masterpiece of life, utilizing all the tools at his disposal. He will not start painting if there is no red or yellow or no fine brush. He needs all the tools to be available at once, for the formulas and tasks are complicated.

 

That's sort of how it works.

 

This is why RESISTANCE is such a big issue; resistance of the body or mind, because it forces you to move away from the 0% state and away from the Wu Wei. That resistance you feel, is the original-mind trying to do it's work, but you impeding it:

 

Give me the brush I need to paint you, it says to you! And you answer, no! I want to count all the hairs first and smell the wood. And then original mind facepalms and calls you retarded.

 

Often this sort of resistance during meditation, can cause pain and nausea.

 

Leave your sponge-bob crayon drawing alone every day for a while, and lend the tools to the original-mind, and it will paint you the Mona Lisa.

 

So, that is why so many schools advocate letting go, so that our wiser, original mind can put to use the tools of our body to their right use, in order to work it's transformation process. It knows, much better than our acquired post-natal Zhi Shen, what is best for us and how to connect us to the Wuji.

 

After time, Wu Wei becomes a natural state of mind and whenever we do something, we can do it completely, absolutely, purely.

 

But we CAN still do! Remember there is still the word action in the phrase "effortless action".

Edited August 16, 2013 by effilang

[Marblehead]

Well, I think you did pretty damn good with that!

[joeblast]

effortless

[Isimsiz Biri]

...I noticed that my qi would rise when I was doing "wrong actions" from a taoist point of view. Usually, this means that I am - even very lightly- taken away by some kind of emotion: anger (or a slight frustration) fear (or even surprise), or excitement.

In my bagua walking the circle practice, I notice that if this happens, I lose power/balance. It may not be obvious from the outside, but I know it.

The solution that seem to work is relax, and slow down.

"Slowing down" doesn't mean that my actions will actually be slower , but I stop being in a rush.

This is quite hard to explain, because it is more about feeling it than just talking about it.

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

 

 

This description made me remember Morihei Ueshiba's experience in 1925:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morihei_Ueshiba#Development_of_aikido

 

The real birth of Aikido came as the result of three instances of spiritual awakening that Ueshiba experienced. The first happened in 1925, after Ueshiba had defeated a naval officer's bokken (wooden katana) attacks unarmed and without hurting the officer. Ueshiba then walked to his garden and had a spiritual awakening.

... I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe.

At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is God's love – the spirit of loving protection for all beings ...

Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.