What is Qi and Jin with Scientific Explanation -- Parallel Thread

[joeblast]

I guess you mean the development of Shen for example.

the jqs paradigm flows in both directions, but not similarly in every direction

[dwai]

I'd like to make a point that all these discussions have no bearing with the actual practice of Tai Chi. These will in fact hinder our learning (too much time spent in the head, not much in the body). The objective of Tai Chi practice is to integrate the mind, body and energy till everything is one unbroken unit.

 

My teacher explained it to me this way -- if we consider our mind and body as a network, then energy is that which connects the various parts of the network and is also what makes the network the network. Tai Chi practice is intended to re-connect all the disparate parts of the network and make energy flow uninterrupted throughout the network, until there is no separation.

 

The Tai Chi classics say -- Every part must be connected to every other part. When you move, everything moves.

My teacher tells us that when we are doing a form, every single hair in our body must also move simultaneously with the body.

 

At different stages of practice/development --

 

1) the body moves and the energy adjusts to it

2) the mind moves the energy and energy moves the body

3) the energy moves the body and the mind in sync

 

For all of these, the mind needs to be dropped, the body needs to be dropped (relaxed/sung). More we practice, more sung we become, the easier it is for us to feel the energy and flow with it.

 

Another key feature in our system is the concept of Te. Tao is the macrocosm and a complete miniature copy of that macrocosm is the Te (the microcosm). To connect with Tao, we must go inward and connect with Te. When our energy picks up the right frequency of vibration, it will automatically link the Te with Tao...then we are truly in the way.

 

What is important to understand (imho) is that we must stop over-intellectualizing things.

 

For instance, during two person practice, when we are working on "making chance" (to wardoff, roll-back, press, push, etc), I often stop for an instant to stop and assess whether I have a wardoff, or roll-back etc. And immediately the flow stops...When I don't stop, the energy manifests itself automatically in a proper application. When I do stop, the moment/chance has appeared and already disappeared. So, we must drop the mind to be able to go with the flow, harmonize with the energy.

[joeblast]

I thought we knew this was intellectual theorizing by the time we got a couple posts in

[Wells]

I'd like to make a point that all these discussions have no bearing with the actual practice of Tai Chi. These will in fact hinder our learning (too much time spent in the head, not much in the body). The objective of Tai Chi practice is to integrate the mind, body and energy till everything is one unbroken unit.

 

My teacher explained it to me this way -- if we consider our mind and body as a network, then energy is that which connects the various parts of the network and is also what makes the network the network. Tai Chi practice is intended to re-connect all the disparate parts of the network and make energy flow uninterrupted throughout the network, until there is no separation.

 

The Tai Chi classics say -- Every part must be connected to every other part. When you move, everything moves.

My teacher tells us that when we are doing a form, every single hair in our body must also move simultaneously with the body.

 

At different stages of practice/development --

 

1) the body moves and the energy adjusts to it

2) the mind moves the energy and energy moves the body

3) the energy moves the body and the mind in sync

 

For all of these, the mind needs to be dropped, the body needs to be dropped (relaxed/sung). More we practice, more sung we become, the easier it is for us to feel the energy and flow with it.

 

Another key feature in our system is the concept of Te. Tao is the macrocosm and a complete miniature copy of that macrocosm is the Te (the microcosm). To connect with Tao, we must go inward and connect with Te. When our energy picks up the right frequency of vibration, it will automatically link the Te with Tao...then we are truly in the way.

 

What is important to understand (imho) is that we must stop over-intellectualizing things.

 

For instance, during two person practice, when we are working on "making chance" (to wardoff, roll-back, press, push, etc), I often stop for an instant to stop and assess whether I have a wardoff, or roll-back etc. And immediately the flow stops...When I don't stop, the energy manifests itself automatically in a proper application. When I do stop, the moment/chance has appeared and already disappeared. So, we must drop the mind to be able to go with the flow, harmonize with the energy.

 

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

[dwai]

I thought we knew this was intellectual theorizing by the time we got a couple posts in

I'm just sayin'

[dwai]

By cleaning the system. More and more impurities will be removed and more Qi will be freed up to grow. So, in a sense, the Qi will grow, but not from an external source, but from within the system (this is my understanding). I know there are systems of thought where Qi can be pulled in from external sources. But based on what I've been taught, Qi cannot be added to -- we have to make do with what we have. This makes it all the more essential to keep our system clean (like a well oiled machine).

 

i just got back from a class today. My teacher said that all the exercises that claim to "pull in" Qi from outside actually allow the Qi to pass through and "tune" our own Qi to their vibrational frequency. We cannot store that "external" Qi, but can let it flow through us and tune us up, so to speak.

[Wells]

i just got back from a class today. My teacher said that all the exercises that claim to "pull in" Qi from outside actually allow the Qi to pass through and "tune" our own Qi to their vibrational frequency. We cannot store that "external" Qi, but can let it flow through us and tune us up, so to speak.

 

Wow!

Thank you very much for that very precious insider information, buddy!

I believe your teacher!

[ChiDragon]

with no additional input of energy, increasing the frequency will decrease the amplitude

I knew something about frequency modulation(FM) too. I don't think that was how it works. I hope the FM radio operators do not read about this.

 

 

 

PS.....

Since this thread is parallel to the other one, I am just wondering is this thread related to Tai Ji Chuan or how to obtain an amateur radio operator license.....???

Edited December 8, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

I knew something about frequency modulation(FM) too. I don't think that was how it works. I hope the FM radio operators do not read about this.

 

 

 

PS.....

Since this thread is parallel to the other one, I am just wondering is this thread related to Tai Ji Chuan or how to obtain an amateur radio operator license.....???

 

This is for those who actually know something about internal martial arts (point being, you can stay out since you don't fall in that category)

[joeblast]

i just got back from a class today. My teacher said that all the exercises that claim to "pull in" Qi from outside actually allow the Qi to pass through and "tune" our own Qi to their vibrational frequency. We cannot store that "external" Qi, but can let it flow through us and tune us up, so to speak.

Which is still storage in a sense, but with a little more emphasis on the relatively low level nature of the technique. Not low as in pithy, but low as in the effect is rather perturbative in nature. Very good concept though, intentional repatterning.

 

 

I knew something about frequency modulation(FM) too. I don't think that was how it works. I hope the FM radio operators do not read about this.

 

 

 

PS.....

Since this thread is parallel to the other one, I am just wondering is this thread related to Tai Ji Chuan or how to obtain an amateur radio operator license.....???

I certainly hope you dont make the same amateur mistakes in your chinese translations

[Mudfoot]

It has been shown that when treated with EQH the testperson's EEG changed, became more in sync with the healer doing the treatment. (And, in the name of science, I should really post the reference, but there is a logistical problem with that, my office is in storage due to total renovation of the clinic I work on ...).

 

When you translate Qi as energy, anyone measured it in the human body recently? I mean, measured it and then someone else repeated the measurement?

I am familiar with the copper wall project, and there are some work on infrasound that no-one seems to have replicated.

 

My point?

Most practitioners can feel what you describe, but when you claim sensing=energy, has anyone recently measured anything out of the ordinary on qigong/neigong/meditation practitioners, not counting changes of activity in the brain.

 

If not, you have an interesting theoretical discussion.

[silent thunder]

 

i just got back from a class today. My teacher said that all the exercises that claim to "pull in" Qi from outside actually allow the Qi to pass through and "tune" our own Qi to their vibrational frequency. We cannot store that "external" Qi, but can let it flow through us and tune us up, so to speak.

Very nice.

 

I used to think of myself as a qi bucket or a battery and was trying to fill myself up and make a larger bucket to have more energy. (edit* This also led to the clinging mind nature of trying to horde my energy and not wanting to give it away easily or waste it. This increased tension and had the opposite effect, decreasing the flow.)

 

That pretty quickly gave way to realizing I am much more like a hose through which energy flows. As I cleanse the system and relax/sung, the meridians and channels open and flow increases.

Edited June 6, 2013 by silent thunder

[Mudfoot]

Dwai,

 

Was it your intention when starting this thread that science would be interpreted from the physics departement? An university has other branches ofta science that might be morr relevant. Personal opinion: using physics is Barking upp the wrong tree. Leaving out oriental studies, Medical science or perhaps theology (religious psychology) would be easier ways to approach the subject?

(My cellphone keeps changeing english words to, lets just call Italien another european language, so please ignore the spelling.:*)

[Mudfoot]

There are several issues that needs to be taken in account when discussing Qi scientifically.

Do you for example want to define "Qi"?

In "A brief history of Qi", Zhang Yu Huan & Ken Rose shows multiple usage of the term.

If I understand it right, there is a difference between modern TCM and traditional Daoist usage of jing-qi-shen.

Also, jing to qi to shen is an ordinal type of scale which makes things slightly more difficult.

 

You can have an open-ended discussion which might be interesting but also rather confusing.

Alternatively, you could declare within which boundaries you define Qi and the discussion will be easier to follow.

Both methods are used scientifially.

Both has advantages and disadvantages.

 

Or one can ditch the scientific notion and instead discuss the experience of the nature of Qi in ones personal training.

[Republic Of Zen]

I am told by my teacher that a certain excise increases my earch chi.

I am told a scientist that certain excise increases the negative charged ions in my body.

I deduce that earth chi is negatively charged ions.

Tao in the face!

[effilang]

 

I am told by my teacher that a certain excise increases my earch chi.

I am told a scientist that certain excise increases the negative charged ions in my body.

I deduce that earth chi is negatively charged ions.

Tao in the face!

 

This guy...