Having trouble understanding some stuff....

[AikiMuay]

So I'm new to Taoism and I've been reading a book on the basics and whatnot. But I keep running across some contradictions (which could be because of my little understanding of Taoism). Maybe you guys could help me understand some stuff more in depth.

 

For example, Taoism is about following your own inner nature and doing what feels nature yet, at times, I find myself wanting to do argue with or go against rather than accept. Also, if it is in someone's nature to be violent or whatever some may see as extremely immoral, is that still following the Tao? So how can we be true to ourselves if we are even the slightest bit resistant, when we are supposed to practice humility?

 

 

There's other things that go along with these questions but I don't remember them. I'm just stuck at how our inner nature may contradict some concepts of Taoism, even if these things are immoral, but just natural to us. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Everything]

So I'm new to Taoism and I've been reading a book on the basics and whatnot. But I keep running across some contradictions (which could be because of my little understanding of Taoism). Maybe you guys could help me understand some stuff more in depth.

 

For example, Taoism is about following your own inner nature and doing what feels nature yet, at times, I find myself wanting to do argue with or go against rather than accept. Also, if it is in someone's nature to be violent or whatever some may see as extremely immoral, is that still following the Tao? So how can we be true to ourselves if we are even the slightest bit resistant, when we are supposed to practice humility?

 

 

There's other things that go along with these questions but I don't remember them. I'm just stuck at how our inner nature may contradict some concepts of Taoism, even if these things are immoral, but just natural to us. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

When you find a paradox, its means that you are at the center of those two appearingly opposing and contradicting ideas. This is what is ment with your natural being. The balance point of power that is you.

[Jetsun]

So I'm new to Taoism and I've been reading a book on the basics and whatnot. But I keep running across some contradictions (which could be because of my little understanding of Taoism). Maybe you guys could help me understand some stuff more in depth.

 

For example, Taoism is about following your own inner nature and doing what feels nature yet, at times, I find myself wanting to do argue with or go against rather than accept. Also, if it is in someone's nature to be violent or whatever some may see as extremely immoral, is that still following the Tao? So how can we be true to ourselves if we are even the slightest bit resistant, when we are supposed to practice humility?

 

 

There's other things that go along with these questions but I don't remember them. I'm just stuck at how our inner nature may contradict some concepts of Taoism, even if these things are immoral, but just natural to us. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

In order to get to know your inner nature and align yourself with it I think it takes a great deal of work to get beyond and undo thousands of years of conditioning and deeply held beliefs of the ego which creates a crust around most people's being. It is usually this defensive crust of ego which makes people violent and immoral not their inner nature.

 

To be true to yourself you need to get to know yourself and to do that it requires admitting that you don't know yourself right now, which is where the humility comes in.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Very good questions. Not that I have definitive answers but these are interesting to think about so I'll try to help with a response. A lot of books, especially the commodified "so what is Taoism" type books can be really lacking and misunderstanding of how these concepts are balanced with their counterparts.

 

So I'm new to Taoism and I've been reading a book on the basics and whatnot. But I keep running across some contradictions (which could be because of my little understanding of Taoism). Maybe you guys could help me understand some stuff more in depth.

 

For example, Taoism is about following your own inner nature and doing what feels nature yet, at times, I find myself wanting to do argue with or go against rather than accept.

 

 

Keep in mind that Taoism finds a way to reconcile opposing forces. Not everything should be allowed. How do you build discipline but by doing things beyond the point of "feeling like doing them." Taoist priests are some of the most disciplined people on the planet, and they can be very strict with their students, and even more so with themselves. Cultivation is a natural part of being human. But of course trying to turn an apple tree into a peach tree is not natural. However, pruning that tree and trying to make it bountiful and healthy is natural. Over-pruning, on the other hand, might kill it or otherwise stunt it's growth.

 

Also, if it is in someone's nature to be violent or whatever some may see as extremely immoral, is that still following the Tao? So how can we be true to ourselves if we are even the slightest bit resistant, when we are supposed to practice humility?

 

Taoists know that they are part of, and a reflection of, Heaven Earth and Humanity. So to abuse these things is foolish. As with most religious traditions, the focus of Taoism is cultivation, of the individual and also of society, of medicine, horticulture, arts, and everything else (of course sometimes the best way to cultivate something is to just let it be, a la wu wei). So how can the individual cultivate themselves and their relationships when they are violent and immoral? They are too stuck in their own ego prison to see outside of it, and no one can see how truly glorious it all is when they are limited to the confines of a puny human ego. When they can give up this limitation they can enter into the higher reality which is that they are a part of everything.

 

Practicing selfishness rather than practicing selflessness will only strengthen the illusion that they are confined to such a small part of one's potential. This will only cause them more suffering, and so it is also very unhealthy.

 

A lot of what other religions prescribe for "moral" reasons are also prescribed in Taoism but for reasons of cultivation. For example, being lusty and greedy will cause one's mind to spin around in confusion and cloud their true self. To be rigid and closed makes one unable to bend to circumstances which can cause fear and also cloud the true self. To be in balance and harmony allows for intelligent, loving, and creative action with due consideration of cause and effect.

 

I hope this provides clarification.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[RiverSnake]

"Know thyself"....this is the main goal of spiritual cultivation. Are you your body? Are you your intellect? Are you your personality? Are you your emotions???

 

As your practice consistently these are some of the questions and illusions which you will begin to see past....unfortunately such answers and truths cannot be given.... only experienced.

 

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." Mathew 7:7

 

Best of luck.

 

 

-My 2 cents , Peace

Edited June 26, 2012 by OldGreen

[AikiMuay]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! Got some deep thinking going on and I'll have to reflect on some posts here later. I know my ego has definitely stunted my mental growth and possibly my own freedom. I guess I just got stuck at 'go with the flow', even though it may seem to contradict what's natural. If someone's intentions are to harm me, should I honor them and 'go with the flow?', or should I defend myself properly which may result in permanent injury? If I'm naturally lazy and I realize I need to be more active at work, doesn't that bring about a contradiction in realizing that my natural ways are not necessarily benefiting me in that area?

 

 

I'm probably over-thinking and like I said, I'll have to run these posts over and give them some more thought. Appreciate the comments and anyone else, please feel free to add on or correct me if I'm wrong. Liking these forums so far.

[thetaoiseasy]

Taoism is to be. Taoism emphasizes the action. It doesn't matter what goes on in your mind when you do the act. So don't worry so much about the conflict your mind -- most of the conflict is the result of conditioning.

 

Simplify your mind and life so you are in the best condition to make a moral decision. And when the time comes, do the best you can and move on. Don't focus on what's right and wrong, good or bad, godly and ungodly.

 

I remember in one video Geneticist Richard Dawkins has a purely intellectual conversation about morality with Peter Singer, a famous bioethicist. They go through lengthy arguments about the pros and cons about x,y, and z. At one point Richard Dawkins tells Peter Singer, "you are way more moral than I am."

 

I laughed out loud. To them morality is a all talk. Something that is to be picked part, analyzed, and dealt with by the rational mind. They think that one's morality can be evaluated by how one thinks about morality.

 

But that is superficial. If you are moral, you don't have to know why you do the good things you do. You do it. We don't merely talk about it in scholarly moral discussion like those armchair analysts.

 

Human nature is divine. We do not need to be humble; given the right circumstances, we will be humble. And then we move on.

Edited June 26, 2012 by thetaoiseasy

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If someone's intentions are to harm me, should I honor them and 'go with the flow?', or should I defend myself properly which may result in permanent injury?

 

To walk away from a fool with your integrity in tact is to win the real fight -- the fight to determine your own path and not let someone re-animate your ego.. They are probably already in their own pit of despair even if they don't realize it so why make their problems worse?

 

"Sand is weighty, and stone is heavy, but who can suffer the provocation of a fool?... He who controls himself is greater than one who takes a city by might." - King Solomon, Proverbs

[ChiDragon]

For example, Taoism is about following your own inner nature and doing what feels nature yet, at times, I find myself wanting to do argue with or go against rather than accept. Also, if it is in someone's nature to be violent or whatever some may see as extremely immoral, is that still following the Tao? So how can we be true to ourselves if we are even the slightest bit resistant, when we are supposed to practice humility?

 

Pardon me for my intrusion, I think I know why you'd fallen into this dilemma. I see a statement which do not coincide with the philosophy in the Tao Te Ching.

 

The contradiction lies on the word 'nature'.

Taoism is not about following your own inner nature. It is about following Nature. The outer Nature is not the inner nature. You inner nature is yourself which may not be compatible with the outer Nature. Thus you want to cultivate yourself to be compatible with Nature by following the principles of Tao. Tao's principle was followed by Tao's own natural self. Please notice that Tao's natural self, not your own inner self. That is the difference in my understanding. In other words, do away with your own inner nature and incorporate Tao's natural way into yourself through cultivation.

Edited June 26, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

So I'm new to Taoism and I've been reading a book on the basics and whatnot. But I keep running across some contradictions (which could be because of my little understanding of Taoism). Maybe you guys could help me understand some stuff more in depth.

 

For example, Taoism is about following your own inner nature and doing what feels nature yet, at times, I find myself wanting to do argue with or go against rather than accept. Also, if it is in someone's nature to be violent or whatever some may see as extremely immoral, is that still following the Tao? So how can we be true to ourselves if we are even the slightest bit resistant, when we are supposed to practice humility?

 

 

There's other things that go along with these questions but I don't remember them. I'm just stuck at how our inner nature may contradict some concepts of Taoism, even if these things are immoral, but just natural to us. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Tao is both easy and difficult it is fraught with irony and its huge in its scope

Take it slowly intellectually

but at the same time ,mean time ,

consider what you do that is swimming upstream

consider what you might be doing that is self defeating

and then consider why you do those things

emphasizing what brings you to feeling peace and harmony about yourself ,

and the situations that you are finding yourself in

as opposed to continuing the behaviors that do the reverse.

If you do that , to WHATEVER degree that you do that ,

YOU WILL HAVE BENEFITTED YOURSELF,

( and the book may start to make better sense without much effort invested at all)

Stosh

[Birch]

When you find a paradox, its means that you are at the center of those two appearingly opposing and contradicting ideas. This is what is ment with your natural being. The balance point of power that is you.

 

Ooh I like THIS!

[Birch]

In order to get to know your inner nature and align yourself with it I think it takes a great deal of work to get beyond and undo thousands of years of conditioning and deeply held beliefs of the ego which creates a crust around most people's being. It is usually this defensive crust of ego which makes people violent and immoral not their inner nature.

 

To be true to yourself you need to get to know yourself and to do that it requires admitting that you don't know yourself right now, which is where the humility comes in.

 

'thousands of years of conditioning'

 

Could you talk more about the thousands of years? Thanks!

[3bob]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! Got some deep thinking going on and I'll have to reflect on some posts here later. I know my ego has definitely stunted my mental growth and possibly my own freedom. I guess I just got stuck at 'go with the flow', even though it may seem to contradict what's natural. If someone's intentions are to harm me, should I honor them and 'go with the flow?', or should I defend myself properly which may result in permanent injury? If I'm naturally lazy and I realize I need to be more active at work, doesn't that bring about a contradiction in realizing that my natural ways are not necessarily benefiting me in that area?

 

I'm probably over-thinking and like I said, I'll have to run these posts over and give them some more thought. Appreciate the comments and anyone else, please feel free to add on or correct me if I'm wrong. Liking these forums so far.

 

Suggestion: Take most everything you read with a grain of salt...

 

There is a "flow" that is anti-dharmic and it flows to the hells, there is a "flow" that is dharmic and it flows to the heavens - but even the heavens are not enough yet in the first light of the first heaven one can pass through and become free of both.

 

Om

Edited June 26, 2012 by 3bob

[Jetsun]

'thousands of years of conditioning'

 

Could you talk more about the thousands of years? Thanks!

 

The way I see it is that most of the belief systems and social conditionings we absorb as we grow up have been passed on for generation to generation for hundreds if not thousands of years, most people in the West have a Christian based psyche whether they like it or not because most of their ancestors were subject to heavy religious indoctrination which then gets passed to each subsequent generation as the belief structure we use to deal with day to day life.

 

Then other belief structures and habits are passed down in different countries through the generations which is why countries and communities maintain a certain unique population character. The general character of the people in say for example France has remained pretty stable for hundreds of years because people pass on the collective mind to each generation.

 

If you were born into an African tribe you would absorb the rules, belief systems and limitations of that tribes collective psyche into your own mind as you grew up which would then largely define your own reality as an adult, and those rules may have been in place for hundreds of years and it is only usually when a big shock comes from the outside that things change like an invasion or war that shake up the collective belief systems.

 

So most people think their ego is their own but really it is just a bunch of programmes absorbed from their environment which have infected their mind, or it is a reaction against those programmes rebelling against them which is another way of feeding them energy; either going with them or rebelling against them keeps them alive so you pass them onto your children in one form or another for another generation. Then once in a while if we are lucky great masters come along and try to do a big clean up job of the collective psyche.

[C T]

The way I see it is that most of the belief systems and social conditionings we absorb as we grow up have been passed on for generation to generation for hundreds if not thousands of years, most people in the West have a Christian based psyche whether they like it or not because most of their ancestors were subject to heavy religious indoctrination which then gets passed to each subsequent generation as the belief structure we use to deal with day to day life.

 

Then other belief structures and habits are passed down in different countries through the generations which is why countries and communities maintain a certain unique population character. The general character of the people in say for example France has remained pretty stable for hundreds of years because people pass on the collective mind to each generation.

 

If you were born into an African tribe you would absorb the rules, belief systems and limitations of that tribes collective psyche into your own mind as you grew up which would then largely define your own reality as an adult, and those rules may have been in place for hundreds of years and it is only usually when a big shock comes from the outside that things change like an invasion or war that shake up the collective belief systems.

 

So most people think their ego is their own but really it is just a bunch of programmes absorbed from their environment which have infected their mind, or it is a reaction against those programmes rebelling against them which is another way of feeding them energy; either going with them or rebelling against them keeps them alive so you pass them onto your children in one form or another for another generation. Then once in a while if we are lucky great masters come along and try to do a big clean up job of the collective psyche.

well observed!

 

...its difficult to break away from the mass collective consciousness. the drama of it all, not to mention the massive doses of guilt thrown at one.

[Jetsun]

well observed!

 

...its difficult to break away from the mass collective consciousness. the drama of it all, not to mention the massive doses of guilt thrown at one.

 

In my experience we come to believe that we need to remain in collective mind in order to survive, so trying to break free from it can even induce fears of death. Advertisers play on this fear all the time.

[C T]

In my experience we come to believe that we need to remain in collective mind in order to survive, so trying to break free from it can even induce fears of death. Advertisers play on this fear all the time.

Advertising supremos, haha, yes. The end game... one can allay it by buying 3 for the price of 2. Subtlety rocks. Keeps one entranced and entrenched, secure in the zapped state of mind that one gains nothing by breaking the 'norm'.

[AikiMuay]

Pardon me for my intrusion, I think I know why you'd fallen into this dilemma. I see a statement which do not coincide with the philosophy in the Tao Te Ching.

 

The contradiction lies on the word 'nature'.

Taoism is not about following your own inner nature. It is about following Nature. The outer Nature is not the inner nature. You inner nature is yourself which may not be compatible with the outer Nature. Thus you want to cultivate yourself to be compatible with Nature by following the principles of Tao. Tao's principle was followed by Tao's own natural self. Please notice that Tao's natural self, not your own inner self. That is the difference in my understanding. In other words, do away with your own inner nature and incorporate Tao's natural way into yourself through cultivation.

 

 

Very helpful posts, as are most of these. Thank you.

Edited July 1, 2012 by AikiMuay

[Aaron]

So I'm new to Taoism and I've been reading a book on the basics and whatnot. But I keep running across some contradictions (which could be because of my little understanding of Taoism). Maybe you guys could help me understand some stuff more in depth.

 

For example, Taoism is about following your own inner nature and doing what feels nature yet, at times, I find myself wanting to do argue with or go against rather than accept. Also, if it is in someone's nature to be violent or whatever some may see as extremely immoral, is that still following the Tao? So how can we be true to ourselves if we are even the slightest bit resistant, when we are supposed to practice humility?

 

 

There's other things that go along with these questions but I don't remember them. I'm just stuck at how our inner nature may contradict some concepts of Taoism, even if these things are immoral, but just natural to us. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

This is the problem with most Taoists, they love the Tao part, but not the Virtue (De) part. If you're asking how we are supposed to behave according to what the Tao Teh Ching says, well I would recommend that you read a few chapters to get a general understanding, the first, and most important for many Taoists, is Chapter 38. The second passage you should read is 67. These two passages talk about the Tao and virtue and how these two phenomena relate to us.

 

First nowhere in the Tao Teh Ching does it tell you to give in to what feels natural, rather it encourages us to develop and cultivate virtue to the extent that it becomes natural. Lao Tzu was well aware that, even 2,500 years ago, man had become far removed from what was "natural". Those that oppose the cultivation of virtue, tend to do so because they like the idea that they can do anything they want, so long as it "feels good", but there is no passage within the Tao Teh Ching that advocates this.

 

If you're feeling conflicted about something you're doing, ask yourself if what you are doing is going to harm someone else or yourself, if the answer is no, then why do you feel conflicted? Well the answer comes down to the idea that we are not living naturally anymore, morality and ideology have taken precedent over what is beneficial to others, hence the need for virtues to follow. The idea is that the longer we practice these virtues, the more natural they become, until one day they are the most natural things for us to do. The difference between virtue and morality is that virtue is the fundamental behaviors each man and woman is born with, compassion, frugality, and non-competition, for example, whereas morality is based on the notion of right and wrong according to a man made dogma.

 

I would recommend reading Allan Watts "The Watercourse Way" and Benjamin Hoff's "The Tao of Pooh" and the "The Te of Piglet". Those are probably the best sources on the topic you'll find. If you don't understand everything right now, don't be surprised. Expect to make mistakes, no one's perfect, just remember that the trick is, as I like to put it, to do no harm to yourself or others. If you can do that, then you're probably living a pretty conflict free / non-interfering / harmonious existence, which is what Lao Tzu was actually talking about.

 

Aaron

Edited July 1, 2012 by Twinner