Genuine Schools

[寒月 Hanyue]

Most schools don't get results, a few do. Those are the only valid ones imho.

 

You appear to be under the impression that all schools were created to be equal, and for the same reasons. IMHO they are not.

 

Each has their place, their aims and intended goals, each are valid (not all cars are a Bugatti veyron, but are they meant to be?).

 

The only problem is when someone THINKS they are studying something that will take them somewhere it won't. Now yes the charlatans are rife with this as you pointed out. They always have been, always will be. And I sincerely doubt that will change any time soon. Mud and Water.

 

Charlatans fish with bait.

 

I used to wonder why "genuine" teachers weren't more prominent, now after years of seeing the crap "genuine" seekers throw about in their pursuits I am not surprised at all

 

One of the things that has been close to the heart of several systems I have been involved in has been learning to differentiate the 'false' from the 'real'. Sometimes this has even involved lessons in recognising past the obvious with groups, systems, and teachers so as not to become preyed upon.

 

All the best,

Edited March 17, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

[Simple_Jack]

"In 1942 at age 24, he went on a three year meditation retreat in the Emei Mountains. It is said that it was there that he verified his enlightenment against the Chinese Buddhist Canon. During this time, Nan's primary teacher was Yuan Huan-Xian, a renowned lay Buddhist teacher.

 

In 1945, Nan later traveled to Tibet to learn the teachings of Vajrayana Buddhism. It was there that Kunga Hutuktu, a high-ranking tulku of the Kagyu school, also verified Nan's enlightenment. Kunga Hutuktu later gave Nan an additional title of "Vajra Master." Nan is one of the few multidisciplinary experts in the world to be versed in the cultivation schools of Vajrayana Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and Chán Buddhism."

 

For what its worth,

 

Best,

The above text is from a wiki page (My link) about him.

 

From reading a published book of one of his lectures Diamond Sutra Explained (translated by Pia Giammasi;) where the translator (who studied under him for a period) also describes the same events from the wiki article. The translation of "Kunga" differs though where it is translated as Gonka Rinpoche (who is the guy who gave him the title of "master of Esoteric Buddhism.")

 

 

This is from Dharmawheel My link:

 

"Nan Huaijin is actually one of the most important and well-respected masters in Chinese Buddhism, and has quite a reputation in other fields as well. Earlier in his life he was a military commander and led a retaliation against the Japanese during the Sino-Japanese War. After this, he ended his military career and had a Chan awakening, and then went to live as a hermit in the Emei mountains for several years verifying his enlightenment against the Chinese Buddhist canon. He also lived in Tibet for some time, and became an acarya in the Kagyu line. When the Communist revolution came, he left for Taiwan with a very large number of ancient Daoist and Buddhist texts, to preserve them in case they were wiped out in mainland China. In Taiwan he became well known as a scholar and university professor, always teaching Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism, and generally acting as a paragon for traditional Chinese culture. His books on Confucianism are now used as standard textbooks on the subject in Taiwan, and dozens of books have been published in his name. I use the phrase "published in his name" because they were basically transcripts of his lectures. Still, he has sold millions of copies and is counted as a well-known Chinese author.

 

Later Nan Huaijin moved to Hong Kong, and then finally to China in Jiangsu province near Suzhou, where he built a massive education center focusing on meditation and spiritual development, as well as an international school. Apart from all this, he is also a high-level spiritual advisor to Chinese officials, and even arranged secret talks between China and Taiwan. In other words, he's a Buddhist master in high places. As for his books, for my part, I have never read any material from any modern works that match his in depth and comprehensiveness. Good examples of this are Working Toward Enlightenment and To Realize Enlightenment. But of course nobody understands their English translations due to the basic content, so he is virtually unknown in this part of the world. At the beginning of Working Toward Enlightenment, he says something like "The texts we will be drawing upon in these lectures are ...", and then proceeds to list over a dozen sutras and sastras including some major long works such as the Yogacarabhumi Sastra. The vast majority of his audience is monastic and is assumed to have some degree of expertise in the Buddhist texts and doctrines already. Although I am trying to convey his teaching style and context, this still does not amount to a good description."

 

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

 

I personally own and have read all his lectures he gave on retreats translated into English: Personally, for me it is not a question of if he is enlightened or not. Especially from reading his Diamond Sutra Explained: For me personally, it is quite clear his level of realization...Reading his books in general, (from the depth and way they are presented) it is obvious for me that this guy knows what he is talking about.

 

Obviously, I agree with what Thomas Cleary said: "There is no question that Master Nan's work is a cut above anything else available from modern authors, either academic or sectarian, and I would like to see his work gain its rightful place in the English speaking world. ... [His] studies contain broad learning in all three main traditions of Chinese thought, Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist. Although this comprehensive purview was common to the greatest minds of China since the T'ang dynasty, it is rare among scholars today."

Edited March 17, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[3bob]

My view: anyone that has to verify their enlightenment against any text is still bumping around someplace...

 

for there is that which is of no doubt which no text or another person can ever prove via any form of external verifciation.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Er, I said schools. Not cobbled together systems marketed to twats that don't know any better.

 

Best,

 

 

Schools such as?

[Thunder_Gooch]

I think mostly it's sour grapes on the part of most spiritual seekers. They get all huffy puffy when masters with real abilities like Chang et all are mentioned.

 

The end goal for me is ascension to a spiritual being while alive, spiritual immortality, ending the cycle of rebirth at any cost.

 

Any school that doesn't share the goal of spiritual immortality, to me at least is just more newage hogwash.

 

What is the point and why bother?

 

If you believe you are going to die and that's the end, enjoy your life.

 

If you believe you are going to die, and go to heaven forever, enjoy your life.

 

If you believe you are trapped in a cycle of endless death and rebirth then do something about it before you die.

 

 

I like learning about non duality and associated philosophies, and I find it fascinating. But if it can't stop rebirth what good is it?

 

 

 

 

 

You appear to be under the impression that all schools were created to be equal, and for the same reasons. IMHO they are not.

 

Each has their place, their aims and intended goals, each are valid (not all cars are a Bugatti veyron, but are they meant to be?).

 

The only problem is when someone THINKS they are studying something that will take them somewhere it won't. Now yes the charlatans are rife with this as you pointed out. They always have been, always will be. And I sincerely doubt that will change any time soon. Mud and Water.

 

Charlatans fish with bait.

 

I used to wonder why "genuine" teachers weren't more prominent, now after years of seeing the crap "genuine" seekers throw about in their pursuits I am not surprised at all

 

One of the things that has been close to the heart of several systems I have been involved in has been learning to differentiate the 'false' from the 'real'. Sometimes this has even involved lessons in recognising past the obvious with groups, systems, and teachers so as not to become preyed upon.

 

All the best,

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Some schools have the beef, others don't.

 

If you enjoy having a spiritual life and that's all you care about then it's fine to screw around with philosophies and practices that don't actually do anything, as long as you enjoy the ride that's all that matters.

 

 

As for me I can't enjoy the ride.

 

Every moment of every day death is with me.

 

Every time I glance in the mirror, every time I take a breath, I am reminded of my own mortality, but more importantly that I am going to wind up in another dream like this one if I can't get out before I die, and I lose all my memories, identity, ego, and personality too so my odds of getting on a path to break out the next cycle are reduced to baseline.

 

I want to become a being not bound by reincarnation.

 

Anything else to me is a waste of time.

 

 

That's just my take on the matter.

Edited March 18, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Simple_Jack]

My view: anyone that has to verify their enlightenment against any text is still bumping around someplace...

 

for there is that which is of no doubt which no text or another person can ever prove via any form of external verifciation.

That's not true.

 

Chan master Yu-an after reading this passage from the Surangama Sutra: "Understanding and perceiving rely on knowing, this is originally ignorance. Understanding and perceiving without perception, this is nirvana."

 

He reinterpreted that passage like this: "Understanding and perceiving rely. Knowing, this is originally ignorance. Understanding and perceiving without meaning (are not.) Perception, this is nirvana." Where he then had a "great awakening."

 

There aren't just examples of people in Chan of being enlightened after getting their foot slammed by a door or getting their finger chopped off...There are many cases of people hearing passages of a sutra or hearing a masters words where they gained insight immediately. One of these cases being the 6th patriarch Hui-neng, who who couldn't read or write (once when coming across someone lecturing on the Diamond Sutra and when he actually achieved enlightenment when the 5th patriarch read him some passages from the Diamond Sutra. This was after he had written his famous poem on the monastery wall in the middle of the night.)

 

As for Nan Huai Chin: Bill Bodri also mentions in one of his books of the verfication of his enlightenment by some masters in the Zen sect and by some when he went to Tibet.

 

EDIT: Spelling

Edited March 17, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[mantis]

That's not true.

 

Chan master Yu-an after reading this passage from the Surangama Sutra: "Understanding and perceiving rely on knowing, this is originally ignorance. Understanding and perceiving without perception, this is nirvana."

 

He reinterpreted that passage like this: "Understanding and perceiving rely. Knowing, this is originally ignorance. Understanding and perceiving without meaning (are not.) Perception, this is nirvana." Where he then had a "great awakening."

 

There aren't just examples of people in Chan of being enlightened after getting their foot slammed by a door or getting their finger chopped off...There are many cases of people hearing passages of a sutra or hearing a masters words where they gained insight immediately. One of these cases being the 6th patriarch Hui-neng, who who couldn't read or write (once when coming across someone lecturing on the Diamond Sutra and when he actually achieved enlightenment when the 5th patriarch read him some passages from the Diamond Sutra. This was after he had written his famous poem on the monastery wall in the middle of the night.)

 

As for Nan Huai Chin: Bill Bodri also mentions in one of his books of the verfication of his enlightenment by some masters in the Zen sect and by some when he went to Tibet.

 

EDIT: Spelling

 

Don't waste your time, he isn't Enlightened because some people on here don't believe he is.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Don't waste your time, he isn't Enlightened because some people on here don't believe he is.

 

 

Does he allow anyone to ask questions or is he too busy for that?

[steve]

[Birch]

Dark teatime Mr Pie? Sorry if I'm being flippant - not the intent.

 

I really do wonder what enlightened people choose to incarnate as. I'd take a stab at "themselves":-)

Sorry to hear this mortality thing is weighing on your mind. In some ways I see mortality as a joyful last chance to live the life I should be living, rather than lamenting about how short it is. Maybe reading some Norquist (who I believe considers himself enlightened) may help. He doesn't seem very happy about his realization.

[steve]

In some ways I see mortality as a joyful last chance to live the life I should be living, rather than lamenting about how short it is.

Or a first?

Beautiful sentiment -K-

Thanks for that.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Dark teatime Mr Pie? Sorry if I'm being flippant - not the intent.

 

I really do wonder what enlightened people choose to incarnate as. I'd take a stab at "themselves":-)

Sorry to hear this mortality thing is weighing on your mind. In some ways I see mortality as a joyful last chance to live the life I should be living, rather than lamenting about how short it is. Maybe reading some Norquist (who I believe considers himself enlightened) may help. He doesn't seem very happy about his realization.

 

I would like to exist as nothing forever if given the choice, no rebirth.

 

Just a mind at peace for eternity in the void, just awareness itself and nothing more.

 

That is my idea of heaven.

 

Short of that, I'd like to exist as a spiritual being and find some place to be alone and meditate and train in peace undisturbed without reincarnating.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Enlightenment as a term is not some universal thing. It's like the word "goal." I mean that as in a soccer goal is not the same goal as your goal to get a hundred on a spelling test. The idea behind them is similar, but they are fundamentally different.

 

So as someone said here, whether or not some school is genuine depends on whether it delivers the goods it promises. A sect of Buddhism says it will free the practitioner from suffering. Then that sect's enlightenment is to free the practitioner from the forms of suffering is says is suffering. A daoist sect says it will make you immortal. Then the enlightenment for that school is immortality.

 

We are all wrongly assuming that there is this enlightenment with a capital E. That's an assumption. At the end of the day you take all the words away and see what's left. What abilities do you have? What do you know? Do you know what all this really is? Do you know you'll be aware if someone blows your brains out the next second? The fact that you even have something called "knowing" is puzzling. Being alive is puzzling. So you just have one big question mark at the end when you stop putting so much energy through your brain filters.

 

Most of us will grow old and die and all the while just talking our of our asses about the best words to describe reality. Maybe at the end of the day you might just have tweaked your brain a little bit to make yourself feel better about experiencing the world. Then someone talks about transcending life and death cycle by seeing reality the correct way (here, another enlightenment), but you might need a book to back you up.

 

How many of us truly have powers to escape mortality or traverse beyond the physical? Only a handful. Maybe none. We are all limited to flesh and bone for now. The body goes and no one's come back recently to say otherwise. So another "genuine" school might just tell you to forget all this and live like the trees do. It's very much like the Chuangtzu that asks questions then really the whole text becomes a question into the question until its realized that the problem just comes with the question. And each school asks different types of questions that become different problems to solve. Maybe there wasn't a problem to begin with, who knows? (All that suffering they say you are experiencing may not be suffering in the first place. Why does some ancient text judge my preferences for life?)

 

Like who really knows anything here really? Why do people talk as if they are so sure of a, b, and c when really it's clear you are just another human being loaded with layers of beliefs you picked up here and there?

Edited March 17, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Aetherous]

If you view your life as a prison, then hardcore dantien cultivation like in mo pai might eventually become disastrous. Part of spiritual cultivation is, well, one thing being spiritual. Imagine if a buddha was imprisoned, would he be pouting and saying life sucks? No, they bring the spirit to the place...they don't try to leave the place and go to the spirit. The nature of the place is that you can't leave. Another part of spiritual cultivation is obviously, cultivation. If you're cultivating beliefs similar to: "life is prison", "death is with me every day", "the world is a living hell"...then you're basically self-destructing. And the end result isn't going to be a release...it's going to be further torment. Absolutely useless beliefs...no offense.

 

What is better to do while imprisoned...to sit with your negative feelings and every second wish that the warden would let you go?

 

Or maybe do a workout and read the paper?

 

What gives you pleasure now...in "hell"? That's where you will find your heaven. Try to take it easy and enjoy yourself, in the midst of your escape attempts.

 

...just trying to help in what seems like a serious situation. I know my efforts are probably going to be fruitless here. Wish you the best, more pie guy.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I believe I am what Jed McKenna refers to as the "break out" archetype. The only joy I truly find in life is dreaming of transcending it. I know why the caged bird sings.

 

One thing I like about McKenna is his ability to cut through the BS.

 

He reminds the reader, death is coming, and it is going to suck, a complete dissolution of physical being, like being dissolved alive in a vat of acid.

 

He doesn't sugar coat reality, that is what is in store for every living being on earth.

 

I know it's awful and morbid to think of but it is also the cold hard truth and the reality of our situation.

 

Many people would rather live in denial of this, and in fact almost all do. It's too horrible a thing to dwell on. It is better to enjoy your life and live in denial of reality.

 

As Jed Would say confronting reality really lights a fire under your ass, and helps you get your priorities straight.

 

If the cycle of rebirth is real it means this just repeats over and over ad infinitum.

 

If Buddha were imprisoned? that's a little oxymornic don't you think.

Like saying you unliberated a liberated being.

 

If I were liberated from death and rebirth as a Buddha, could transcend space and time at will I don't think it would matter too much where I parked my physical body if I still had one to park.

 

The nature of the place is you can't leave? I'll give it my best shot that's the only thing that brings me real happiness and meaning in life.

 

 

 

If you view your life as a prison, then hardcore dantien cultivation like in mo pai might eventually become disastrous. Part of spiritual cultivation is, well, one thing being spiritual. Imagine if a buddha was imprisoned, would he be pouting and saying life sucks? No, they bring the spirit to the place...they don't try to leave the place and go to the spirit. The nature of the place is that you can't leave. Another part of spiritual cultivation is obviously, cultivation. If you're cultivating beliefs similar to: "life is prison", "death is with me every day", "the world is a living hell"...then you're basically self-destructing. And the end result isn't going to be a release...it's going to be further torment. Absolutely useless beliefs...no offense.

 

What is better to do while imprisoned...to sit with your negative feelings and every second wish that the warden would let you go?

 

Or maybe do a workout and read the paper?

 

What gives you pleasure now...in "hell"? That's where you will find your heaven. Try to take it easy and enjoy yourself, in the midst of your escape attempts.

 

...just trying to help in what seems like a serious situation. I know my efforts are probably going to be fruitless here. Wish you the best, more pie guy.

Edited March 17, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Sloppy Zhang]

If you view your life as a prison, then hardcore dantien cultivation like in mo pai might eventually become disastrous. Part of spiritual cultivation is, well, one thing being spiritual. Imagine if a buddha was imprisoned, would he be pouting and saying life sucks? No, they bring the spirit to the place...they don't try to leave the place and go to the spirit. The nature of the place is that you can't leave. Another part of spiritual cultivation is obviously, cultivation. If you're cultivating beliefs similar to: "life is prison", "death is with me every day", "the world is a living hell"...then you're basically self-destructing. And the end result isn't going to be a release...it's going to be further torment. Absolutely useless beliefs...no offense.

 

What is better to do while imprisoned...to sit with your negative feelings and every second wish that the warden would let you go?

 

Or maybe do a workout and read the paper?

 

What gives you pleasure now...in "hell"? That's where you will find your heaven. Try to take it easy and enjoy yourself, in the midst of your escape attempts.

 

...just trying to help in what seems like a serious situation. I know my efforts are probably going to be fruitless here. Wish you the best, more pie guy.

 

You can be happy when in prison, but you're still in prison.

 

You can be happy while someone is beating the shit out of you, but that doesn't mean the shit isn't getting beat out of you.

 

You can be content in the joys of the here and "now", but still be doomed to cycle through the same stuff over and over and over.

 

Okay, so you can change your attitude. What else can you change?

Edited March 17, 2012 by Sloppy Zhang

[tulku]

[Aetherous]

You can be content in the joys of the here and "now", but still be doomed to cycle through the same stuff over and over and over.

 

Doomed to cycle through more joy and contentment?

 

Okay, so you can change your attitude. What else can you change?

 

I don't get what/why you're asking? I can change a lot of things, like anyone can.

[tulku]

I think mostly it's sour grapes on the part of most spiritual seekers. They get all huffy puffy when masters with real abilities like Chang et all are mentioned.

 

The end goal for me is ascension to a spiritual being while alive, spiritual immortality, ending the cycle of rebirth at any cost.

 

Any school that doesn't share the goal of spiritual immortality, to me at least is just more newage hogwash.

 

What is the point and why bother?

 

If you believe you are going to die and that's the end, enjoy your life.

 

If you believe you are going to die, and go to heaven forever, enjoy your life.

 

If you believe you are trapped in a cycle of endless death and rebirth then do something about it before you die.

 

 

I like learning about non duality and associated philosophies, and I find it fascinating. But if it can't stop rebirth what good is it?

 

 

Hello Pie Guy

 

It is good that you think a proper school should be able stop the cycle of rebirth and death before you die.

 

Let me ask you then.

 

Do you think it is important to eliminate all desires.. especially sexual desires.. in order to stop the cycle of rebirth and death?

[steve]

 

He reminds the reader, death is coming, and it is going to suck, a complete dissolution of physical being, like being dissolved alive in a vat of acid.

 

He doesn't sugar coat reality, that is what is in store for every living being on earth.

 

I know it's awful and morbid to think of but it is also the cold hard truth and the reality of our situation.

 

Many people would rather live in denial of this, and in fact almost all do. It's too horrible a thing to dwell. It is better to enjoy your life and live in denial of reality.

 

I think he is completely mistaken.

Death is not only coming, it is all around us.

Complete dissolution of physical being is blessed release.

Sure the transition can be difficult and painful.

That is natural.

But death is nothing to fear.

You can finally let go of all suffering, all expectations, all worldly concerns.

It is not about sugar coating or denial.

It is about letting go.

[tulku]

If you view your life as a prison, then hardcore dantien cultivation like in mo pai might eventually become disastrous. Part of spiritual cultivation is, well, one thing being spiritual. Imagine if a buddha was imprisoned, would he be pouting and saying life sucks? No, they bring the spirit to the place...they don't try to leave the place and go to the spirit. The nature of the place is that you can't leave. Another part of spiritual cultivation is obviously, cultivation. If you're cultivating beliefs similar to: "life is prison", "death is with me every day", "the world is a living hell"...then you're basically self-destructing. And the end result isn't going to be a release...it's going to be further torment. Absolutely useless beliefs...no offense.

 

What is better to do while imprisoned...to sit with your negative feelings and every second wish that the warden would let you go?

 

Or maybe do a workout and read the paper?

 

What gives you pleasure now...in "hell"? That's where you will find your heaven. Try to take it easy and enjoy yourself, in the midst of your escape attempts.

 

...just trying to help in what seems like a serious situation. I know my efforts are probably going to be fruitless here. Wish you the best, more pie guy.

 

now it is clear from these absurd statements of yours that you clearly know nothing about enlightenment..

 

the objective of all true spiritual enlightenment is to destroy your human ego so that your divine godly ego will emerge..

 

and how do you destroy your human ego? by removing all attachments and all desires which are held by your human ego..

 

who cares whether you are self-destructing? is death that bad? btw.. there is no way you can return to the spirit if you do not choose death.. whether it be through physical death or death of the ego or even both..

 

you are the escapist here.. you are clearly escaping from the fact that we live in a holographic matrix and you choose to do nothing about it..

[Thunder_Gooch]

If it ends at death that's fine with me, what concerns me so much isn't dying as it is being reborn and repeating the cycle forever.

 

I want it to end this go round.

 

 

 

I think he is completely mistaken.

Death is not only coming, it is all around us.

Complete dissolution of physical being is blessed release.

Sure the transition can be difficult and painful.

That is natural.

But death is nothing to fear.

You can finally let go of all suffering, all expectations, all worldly concerns.

It is not about sugar coating or denial.

It is about letting go.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Doomed to cycle through more joy and contentment?

 

Ever eat too much candy on Halloween?

 

I don't get what/why you're asking? I can change a lot of things, like anyone can.

 

So how would you change your state of imprisonment? It's certainly not by sitting there being content to be in prison! Or maybe it is... but I'd love to hear that explanation!

Edited March 17, 2012 by Sloppy Zhang