Genuine Schools

[tulku]

I believe I am what Jed McKenna refers to as the "break out" archetype. The only joy I truly find in life is dreaming of transcending it. I know why the caged bird sings.

 

One thing I like about McKenna is his ability to cut through the BS.

 

He reminds the reader, death is coming, and it is going to suck, a complete dissolution of physical being, like being dissolved alive in a vat of acid.

 

He doesn't sugar coat reality, that is what is in store for every living being on earth.

 

I know it's awful and morbid to think of but it is also the cold hard truth and the reality of our situation.

 

Many people would rather live in denial of this, and in fact almost all do. It's too horrible a thing to dwell on. It is better to enjoy your life and live in denial of reality.

 

As Jed Would say confronting reality really lights a fire under your ass, and helps you get your priorities straight.

 

If the cycle of rebirth is real it means this just repeats over and over ad infinitum.

 

If Buddha were imprisoned? that's a little oxymornic don't you think.

Like saying you unliberated a liberated being.

 

If I were liberated from death and rebirth as a Buddha, could transcend space and time at will I don't think it would matter too much where I parked my physical body if I still had one to park.

 

The nature of the place is you can't leave? I'll give it my best shot that's the only thing that brings me real happiness and meaning in life.

 

most people live in denial of death because their egos can't take the truth of reality..

 

they want to live in their illusion and dreams forever.. why do you think hollywood is such a roaring success? because they specialize in selling dreams to people and keeping them there..

 

now imagine if hollywood is to churn out film after film about death and cancer and impermanence..

 

firstly.. no one would watch these films.. and even if they watch them.. then the whole world will stop indulging in lust and begin working on their enlightenment/immortality..

 

and once the critical mass of humans who began working on their enlightenment/immortality is reached.. what happens then?

 

the entire human race becomes a race of gods .. and the powers that be.. the demons and devil overlords lose a major hunting ground of prey where they can feed on..

 

this is why the demons and devils and their puppet governments all around the world will use the media to keep the masses in blissful ignorance..

 

why do you think all the legitimate schools have gone underground and not being taught in universities today?

 

why do you think not a bloody single mainstream university teach its students about the cold dark reality of death?

Edited March 17, 2012 by tulku

[steve]

I want it to end this go round.

That's fine.

Can you just be with that desire?

See it for what it is?

See how it is just like any other desire?

Just another manifestation of the mind that wants to control it's environment.

The whole idea of cycles and reincarnation and transcending and enlightenment.

All of it is a creation of the mind.

Once you see the essence of what the mind does, letting go may become easier.

I wish you peace.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I come up with the figure based on masters like Chang who claim to only be able to feel the presence of that many people close to or above their level.

 

It may even be less than that.

 

 

i wanna know something..

 

how did you come up with the magic figure of 60 people alive on earth who truly represent legitimate schools?

 

do you think for eg.. dr pillai of the pillai centre.. http://www.pillaicenter.com/

 

or max of kunlun.. www.primordialalchemist.com/

 

do they represent legitimate schools?

 

don't you think 60 is an extremely low number considering we have hundreds of diverse cultures and billions of people on this planet?

 

what factors do you consider in determining if someone represent a legitimate school or not?

[Aetherous]

Ever eat too much candy on Halloween?

 

You're saying that enjoying life regularly eventually becomes distasteful?

 

I think there is no comparison to overeating candy, and that the more you enjoy life, the more you enjoy enjoying life.

 

Cultivation...you reap what you sow. Sow enjoyment...reap more enjoyment.

 

Life is never perfectly perfect, so I assure you, it won't get old.

 

So how would you change your state of imprisonment? It's certainly not by sitting there being content to be in prison! Or maybe it is... but I'd love to hear that explanation!

 

I don't believe that we are imprisoned, first of all. I think it's a false, harmful and useless belief. The belief and resulting emotions are what's imprisoning...not being alive.

 

But yes, to get out of prison (hypothetically) you survive and behave yourself. If you can enjoy your time there, that's obviously much better than hating every second. Hating your life does not make your sentence go faster...actually it makes it seem like an eternity.

 

The nature of prisons is that it's incredibly hard to escape...close to impossible. I suppose a productive way of spending your time is to think about ways to get out. If you are capable of coming up with a good enough scheme, then perhaps you could end up escaping...

 

...and then finding yourself still living as you are. Simply in a new place.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Chang has a large family if I am not mistaken, he has broken the cycle of rebirth as did his master.

 

But yes if I thought it would get me there quicker I would turn down all the great booty calls from college chicks that I get.

 

Right now my training is on hold as I am working full time to buy an acre of land, and can put a camper on it.

 

After I get my living arrangements sorted, and my cost of living as low as absolutely possible, I move to the next phase which is working only part time and focusing full time on training and college.

 

I want to get into Cisco networking and learn Norwegian and move to Norway as a CCNP.

 

Sogndal, Norway is where my heart is.

 

Hello Pie Guy

 

It is good that you think a proper school should be able stop the cycle of rebirth and death before you die.

 

Let me ask you then.

 

Do you think it is important to eliminate all desires.. especially sexual desires.. in order to stop the cycle of rebirth and death?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Ever eat too much candy on Halloween?

 

 

 

So how would you change your state of imprisonment? It's certainly not by sitting there being content to be in prison! Or maybe it is... but I'd love to hear that explanation!

 

 

I believe it's called Dukkha.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I don't believe that we are imprisoned, first of all. I think it's a false, harmful and useless belief. The belief and resulting emotions are what's imprisoning...not being alive.

 

 

Both John Chang and Wang LiPing both espouse a belief in reincarnation unless the yin and yang spirits are fused as one.

 

The yang spirit is the active thinking mind, memory, ego, identity, etc. it is scattered back into the environment at death, the yin spirit is more like the subconcious mind and base awareness which continues on and is reincarnated.

 

Maybe being erased and reused as some new lifeform over and over isn't a prison to most others, but it seems like something I would rather prevent if possible even if that meant just being nothing forever, eternal death, void, abyss, sleep, nonexistent etc.

[3bob]

Death died like a deep dream one finally awakens from,

replaced by freedom to "Fear not" and doubt not.

 

Further, there is no dissoulution of the real, for niether "death"

nor "life" can reach it, thus the real worries not of forms

coming and going for worry is not of its nature.

[Jetsun]

I don't think all schools are real, well they are only schools in the same way life in general is in that they teach you from your mistakes, but I would imagine it is clear to most of the people here that in Taoism expecially there are all sorts of frauds and people only teaching minor fragments of a larger system. If you believe stories about "the ancients" they once had a far more complete knowledge of which acupuncture, qigong and energy work etc was just a part of it, but people now are treating that one fragment as a complete system in itself, but what if in some places the complete teaching remains which have complete teachings on the psyche, the energy body, astrology, healing, meditation, sacred architecture, divination, dream body, physical health, etc all together. All the different teachings can compliment each other for a complete education.

 

A zen monk may say all that is unnecessary and all you have to do is sit, but it is clear that certain groups and societies through history had a more complete knowledge than we have now, for example the Egyptians who built the pyramids and Luxor temple had a high knowledge about many aspects of life which now may be lost, and people like Wang Liping had a fat more complete spiritual education than just sitting.

[Friend]

Beside the discussion of genuine or not genuine schools.

Are you guys qualified in stillness, concentration and still body discipline, the ethics, hard work? Would be bad to be ignored after taking into the school, as they can take you in and take their time to teach you, as everyone can say the will work hard, give their best and swear that they do it. You can be part of a genuine school but do they teach you someone they would scout for or do they teach someone who is begged for?

 

How many I see here in the bums tell after a year of giving tips and asked for sitting full lotus say "I have not practise it for while" or ask again.

Asking for Mo Pai and legs cramp after 10 minutes and you know the vague from Magus of Java to sit one hour.

Again I meet some who actually sit 2 to 4 hours regulary on forest ground having child, go study and is married, this is I call the right discipline and work ethic.

 

I was told of one of my teachers in the long long past that he welcomes every one as student but not as disciple.

 

Have you reach this minimum to be a genuine student to access a genuine school (those who have the "beef")? A genuine school do not want to teach trash student who has not reach the little that is teached in public.

The whole foundation is free for access - go and become a genuine student and the universe provide what you need to progress. The same and the same attract each other.

If you seek and do not find you are simple not ready to receive what can be given.

[RiverSnake]

More Pie Guy...please take offense to what i am about to say.

 

-You constantly seem to be looking for the most genuine lineage or the best path or the fastest route to get to your goal of enlightenment. However, if you were really genuinely motivated then you would find a path that was right for you and dedicate yourself to it instead of blabbing about how miserable, imprisoning, cold and indifferent life is.

 

Yet when people like DarinHamel come online and basically say all they did was practice Tai Chi and basic meditation and it took them to the peak of cultivation (Shen--->Void) you are still looking for a "Genuine School" instead of new age garbage. Sounds like your running around in circles trying to chew through your own bull-shit.

 

IMO the path is 90% guts and drive. If you have that sooner or later you will get to you're goal be it this life or the next. People with a better method might get there sooner...but you eventually will too.

 

I was surprised by this thread because i usually enjoy your posts...but you just sound like your whining like a little girl...today we have more access to esoteric knowledge and practices than we ever probably have had in the history of the world and you are still looking around for "what's best?". "There is no "best", everything you require for the path lies within.

 

I wish you the best of luck.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 17, 2012 by OldGreen

[Thunder_Gooch]

No problem.

 

No offense taken.

 

I was just giving my honest motivations, feelings and emotions on the matter.

 

It wasn't my intention to come off as a whiny girl

 

I plan on doing the best I can with what I have no matter if I succeed or fail.

 

My motivation for pursuing my goals is rooted in my unhappiness of the situation I am in.

 

I try to keep my ears open for schools on par with mo pai, and teachers on par with john chang. Beings that are physically liberated from death/rebirth.

 

A lot of people trash talk mo pai about the development of siddhi's but don't realize the end goal of mo pai is spiritual immortality.

 

I think Darin is a great guy, I think the Max Kunlun guy is a great guy, I think almost all these people are good people.

 

I don't think they fused their yin and yang spirits though, and I do think they are still subject to rebirth.

 

Maybe a handful of people on earth become liberated in the sense I am seeking.

 

I still enjoy life about as much as everyone else, but when I reflect upon the reality of the situation I am in, and really we all are in it causes me much anxiety and Dukkha.

 

My apologies for coming off as a whiny little girl

 

peace bro.

 

 

 

 

More Pie Guy...please take offense to what i am about to say.

 

-You constantly seem to be looking for the most genuine lineage or the best path or the fastest route to get to your goal of enlightenment. However, if you were really genuinely motivated then you would find a path that was right for you and dedicate yourself to it instead of blabbing about how miserable, imprisoning, cold and indifferent life is.

 

Yet when people like DarinHamel come online and basically say all they did was practice Tai Chi and basic meditation and it took them to the peak of cultivation (Shen--->Void) you are still looking for a "Genuine School" instead of new age garbage. Sounds like your running around in circles trying to chew through your own bull-shit.

 

IMO the path is 90% guts and drive. If you have that sooner or later you will get to you're goal be it this life or the next. People with a better method might get there sooner...but you eventually will too.

 

I was surprised by this thread because i usually enjoy your posts...but you just sound like your whining like a little girl...today we have more access to esoteric knowledge and practices than we ever probably have had in the history of the world and you are still looking around for "what's best?". "There is no "best", everything you require for the path lies within.

 

I wish you the best of luck.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 17, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

My training is on hold because I can't devote enough time and work full time+. I have two jobs right now.

 

Soon I should have an acre of land and a camper. There are some other basics I need after that but once in place I do plan on focusing on working only part time, college, and training full time.

 

My environment isn't conducive to the lifestyle I want to lead so I am working my damnedest to change it.

 

My friends bug me a lot about not going to China to retreats or whatever, I am like why would I? I am a an unworthy student at this moment in time. Why would I bother a real master in the condition I am right now.

 

I hope to change this in the future when I can afford only to work part time.

 

 

Beside the discussion of genuine or not genuine schools.

Are you guys qualified in stillness, concentration and still body discipline, the ethics, hard work? Would be bad to be ignored after taking into the school, as they can take you in and take their time to teach you, as everyone can say the will work hard, give their best and swear that they do it. You can be part of a genuine school but do they teach you someone they would scout for or do they teach someone who is begged for?

 

How many I see here in the bums tell after a year of giving tips and asked for sitting full lotus say "I have not practise it for while" or ask again.

Asking for Mo Pai and legs cramp after 10 minutes and you know the vague from Magus of Java to sit one hour.

Again I meet some who actually sit 2 to 4 hours regulary on forest ground having child, go study and is married, this is I call the right discipline and work ethic.

 

I was told of one of my teachers in the long long past that he welcomes every one as student but not as disciple.

 

Have you reach this minimum to be a genuine student to access a genuine school (those who have the "beef")? A genuine school do not want to teach trash student who has not reach the little that is teached in public.

The whole foundation is free for access - go and become a genuine student and the universe provide what you need to progress. The same and the same attract each other.

If you seek and do not find you are simple not ready to receive what can be given.

[Simple_Jack]

So as someone said here, whether or not some school is genuine depends on whether it delivers the goods it promises. A sect of Buddhism says it will free the practitioner from suffering. Then that sect's enlightenment is to free the practitioner from the forms of suffering is says is suffering. A daoist sect says it will make you immortal. Then the enlightenment for that school is immortality.

I personally think that anyone (regardless of what they believe in) can extend their lives for a very long time through their cultivation efforts....That is if they actually get far enough in their cultivation to be able to do so. I think that it not something that one particular school or certain region of people came up with and can accomplish. According to the Surangama Sutra, though it may not have been actually expounded by Shakyamuni Buddha in person; nonetheless it (according to a wiki entry on this sutra My link) originated in India:

 

"History and Translation

 

According to traditional records, the Śūraṅgama Sūtra was translated in 705 CE by Śramaṇa Pāramiti from Central India, who came to China and translated the text in the province of Guangzhou. The text was then polished and edited by Empress Wu Zetian's former minister, court regulator, and state censor Fang Yong of Qingho. The translation was reviewed by Śramaṇa Meghaśikha from Oḍḍiyāna, and certified by Śramaṇa Huaidi of Nanlou Monastery (南樓寺) on Mount Luofu (羅浮山).

 

A number of scholars have associated the Śūraṅgama Sūtra with the Buddhist tradition at Nālandā. Epstein also notes that the general doctrinal position of the sūtra does indeed correspond to what is known about the Buddhist teachings at Nālandā during this period."

 

In any case, in this sutra "immortals" or those using certain cultivation methods to extent their lives for a very long time, are given their own section in this sutra. Of course in Buddhism they are still subject to ignorance/samsara and are practitioners of an outside path that does not lead to nirvana. I like this particular translation from Bill Bodri's "How To Measure And Deepen Your Spiritual Realization" (Thank you Taiji_Bum for posting about this e-book!)

 

 

There are people who do not cultivate samadhi correctly, but cultivate in some special way that is based on strongly holding onto false thoughts [his way of talking about the cultivation of Shen.] As a result, they can perpetuate their physical bodies and roam in the mountains, forests, and in other places where people do not go. There are ten kinds of such immortals.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution cultivate through eating special foods and perfecting the diet of what they eat. When they have perfected this method of cultivation, they are known as earth-bound immortals.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution ingest grasses and medicinal herbs to preserve their bodies and live a long life. When they have perfected this method of cultivation, they are known as flying immortals.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution ingest special minerals and stones [such as calcium and mercury] to preserve their bodies and live long lives. When they have perfected this method of cultivation, they are known as roaming immortals.

Some of these practitioners with their unflagging resolution cultivate themselves by mastering their breathing [pranayama.] When they have perfected their chi and jing, they are known as immaterial [space] immortals.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution cultivate their saliva [the pituitary hormones which descend from the brain known as the "sweet dew" "or "nectar of immortality"] and perfect the way of internal lubrication. When they have perfected this method, they are known as heavenly immortals.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution make themselves strong by absorbing the essence of the sun and moon. When they have perfected the inhalation of this purity, they are known as [unimpeded] penetrating immortals.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution use mantras and special dharma techniques to preserve their bodies. When they have perfected this means of cultivation, they are known as immortals of the lesser way.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution master mental concentration and perfect the way of meditation to preserve their bodies. When they have perfected their method of mental concentration, they are known as illuminating immortals.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution cultivate through sexual union to preserve their bodies and live a long life. When they have perfected this method of cultivation to achieve harmonization, they are known as jing [sexual energy] immortals.

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution cultivate the understanding of heavenly and earthly transformations which they apply to their bodies. When they have perfected their spiritual cultivation, they are known as immortals of the highest order [absolute immortals.]

These people all regulate their minds, but do not cultivate the right bodhi [the enlightenment mind.] They cultivate some special principle of life and can live for thousands, or tens of thousands of years. They retire deep into the mountains, or live on deserted islands in the sea and cut themselves off from the human realm. However, their states of attainment still belong to the realm of false thinking rather than to genuine samadhi. When the longevity of life which is their reward is finished, they are condemned to return again to lower planes of existence

[Simple_Jack]

My training is on hold because I can't devote enough time and work full time+. I have two jobs right now.

 

Soon I should have an acre of land and a camper. There are some other basics I need after that but once in place I do plan on focusing on working only part time, college, and training full time.

 

My environment isn't conducive to the lifestyle I want to lead so I am working my damnedest to change it.

 

My friends bug me a lot about not going to China to retreats or whatever, I am like why would I? I am a an unworthy student at this moment in time. Why would I bother a real master in the condition I am right now.

 

I hope to change this in the future when I can afford only to work part time.

Yeah man, there are times in your life where you will have to make you some sacrifices in order to achieve what you want. Especially when it comes to the spiritual path.

 

If you are serious about your goal, you should cultivate dhyana (Otherwise known as samadhi; jhana in Pali) along with your Taoist practices. In any case: You should read the Hatha Yoga Pradipika and The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali in order to learn about what and how to cultivate dhyana. If you're interested you should also look into learning about cultivating dhyana/jhana and insight from Theravada Buddhism.

 

It should be no surprise due to my indoctrination, but...In Theravada for an Arahant (Arhat in Sanskrit) Nirvana Without Remainder is when they leave their physical body [i've read that when they are going to pass away: To display their mastery over the five elements of the body, they fly up into the air with one half of their body as water and the other half as fire; where they then completely incinerate their body's in flames....There are instances of Arahants leaving behind "relics" for others to keep] to go into parinibbana in order to not be reborn in cyclical existence/samsara (My link.) If this is something that you want to achieve yourself one day, then you should also be cultivating jhana along with insight.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Thanks for the additional information Jack.

No, problem. Though you should know by now: That if I really thought that this person was a fraud then I would've definitely have said so. I also would've condemned his works as something not to be read a long time ago on this forum.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Are you guys qualified in stillness, concentration and still body discipline, the ethics, hard work?

 

Would be bad to be ignored after taking into the school, as they can take you in and take their time to teach you, as everyone can say the will work hard, give their best and swear that they do it. You can be part of a genuine school but do they teach you someone they would scout for or do they teach someone who is begged for?

 

How many I see here in the bums tell after a year of giving tips and asked for sitting full lotus say "I have not practise it for while" or ask again.

Asking for Mo Pai and legs cramp after 10 minutes and you know the vague from Magus of Java to sit one hour.

Again I meet some who actually sit 2 to 4 hours regulary on forest ground having child, go study and is married, this is I call the right discipline and work ethic.

 

I was told of one of my teachers in the long long past that he welcomes every one as student but not as disciple.

 

Have you reach this minimum to be a genuine student to access a genuine school (those who have the "beef")? A genuine school do not want to teach trash student who has not reach the little that is teached in public.

The whole foundation is free for access - go and become a genuine student and the universe provide what you need to progress. The same and the same attract each other.

 

If you seek and do not find you are simple not ready to receive what can be given.

 

Definately needed repeating. Well said, Friend.

 

I have caused some confusion in my posts, and for this I apologise. My terminology came from the teacher who clarified things for me, they used the term 'school'. It is not a reference to specific schools, and more to lines of transmission. These lines do get muddled and watered down, so yes it is arguable that those are not 'genuine' in a sense. To me though it is like looking at a local 'gongfu' guy trying to do his "Shaolin" sets, and righting off Shaolin without consideration of anything else. So yes, learning to discern the 'false' from the 'real', as I mentioned before, is a part of the path.

 

Now this explanation, which is ONLY ONE WAY of looking at things (was offered simply to share so please take it or leave it, I don't care), made sense to me from my own experiences and from those of people I know in cultivation as well as esoteric martial art schools.

 

More Pie. I'm glad you have explained your aim. It helps understanding why you view things the way you do. You have a goal and are single minded in its pursuit, that is admirable. My only point is that to think that someone who is not pursuing the same thing as yourself is wrong or falling short of the mark, is well, a bit odd from my point of view. But I'm not you, and you're not me. I hope you get your plot of land.

 

All the best,

[Lucky7Strikes]

I personally think that anyone (regardless of what they believe in) can extend their lives for a very long time through their cultivation efforts....That is if they actually get far enough in their cultivation to be able to do so. I think that it not something that one particular school or certain region of people came up with and can accomplish. According to the Surangama Sutra, though it may not have been actually expounded by Shakyamuni Buddha in person]

Not anyone can become a daoist immortal and attain the shen body or ascend to attain unity with the Tao. Or come and go from the physical realm as they please. That's not like taking more whole foods pills so you can look a bit better in your wheel chair. I'm not saying this is true, but it's a type of enlightenment certain daoist schools purport.

 

As for the quote below from the Shurangama sutra, I have no faith in it as much as I don't have much faith in the Christian bible. But it says what it says as a Buddhist text/school. Have you attained what the Shurangama sutra says you will attain if you follow its steps? Whether it's genuine or not depends on this measure. So I'm also not saying the Shurangama sutra wrong, but I'm not saying it's right either. That it's more like a hypothesis out there just like Christianity's model of heaven and hell.

 

Your practice is based on Thusness' stages and more of the direct way of perception and is not even similar to the path of the Shurangama sutra. Shurangama sutra uses mantras and withdrawing of the senses as preparatory measures.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Aetherous]

Both John Chang and Wang LiPing both espouse a belief in reincarnation unless the yin and yang spirits are fused as one.

 

The yang spirit is the active thinking mind, memory, ego, identity, etc. it is scattered back into the environment at death, the yin spirit is more like the subconcious mind and base awareness which continues on and is reincarnated.

 

Maybe being erased and reused as some new lifeform over and over isn't a prison to most others, but it seems like something I would rather prevent if possible even if that meant just being nothing forever, eternal death, void, abyss, sleep, nonexistent etc.

 

There is the concept and words of this result, which these people believe in (a mix of Buddhist and Taoist mythology which might be true)...there are the assumptions about the words, which you believe in (which doesn't necessarily resemble the actual attainment)...then there is the reality of that result, which those guys may have attained or not. Your attainment may not meet your expectations of what it is...the words are misleading and the interpretation of the words even more so.

 

I'm not here to criticize your path and who you are at all...I just feel like it's a bit too much intensity building up, with no release of that through action towards the goals you have. And too much hatred of life and wishing for nothingness, when really what you're trying to do on this path is extend the time that you're alive in some form or another...most likely even after the typical death of the physical body.

 

Regardless, I wish you the best in meeting your goals as well as finding your satisfaction.

 

PS I like your descriptions of the yin and yang spirits.

[Simple_Jack]

Your practice is based on Thusness' stages and more of the direct way of perception and is not even similar to the path of the Shurangama sutra. Shurangama sutra uses mantras and withdrawing of the senses as preparatory measures.

Actually, I've mainly used Mahamudra as part of my practice. I've just plagiarized Thusness's words, because I like the way he describes each phase of insight. Also, because it is a more modern way of describing the different insights into experience.

 

While there are those (with the right karmic conditions,) who can progress quickly towards insight into the nature of experience without having to gradually cultivate all the advanced states of meditation (that is if you believe it is even a possibility;) I do not separate the direct and gradual path to buddhahood. The Surangama Sutra deals with advanced stages of cultivation on the path to buddhahood. Though it might be possible for an individual to gain direct insight into the Dharma without having to go through a gradual process: There is still a need for the individual to progress on the gradual path, such as laid out in the Surangama Sutra in order to achieve the three buddha-bodies.

 

Though, I don't focus on describing the transformations of the body on the path in my posts (I focus only on prajna wisdom in my posts here): I myself am working toward the attainment of both the sambhogakaya (bliss-body gained through the purification/transformation of the 5 elements of the body) and nirmanakaya or perfect rupakaya.

 

Though, how about we make a deal, lol: If I do manage to achieve what I've said above, I'll show up in your dreams or send a transformation body or I'll fly or teleport to your house or some shit. Deal?

[Friend]

You can't jump straight to squatting 1000lbs! you gotta start somewhere

 

This words have much essence!

 

This also counts for the genuine schools.

They have to start somewhere and were small at there time even not as developed compared to time where there disciples bloom and produce famous authority.

At that time they also did not know much as to meditate, pray and concentrate and body discipline and with time the perception expand and there was knowledge retrieved and because of circumstances of time, space, focus and personaliy this and that school was created.

And it was changed by later generation fusioned with other while other seperate into subsects.

 

The schools high level are similar as I heard so I add that there base is as well the same even some look more exotic than other. All the world have and had the spiritual

lore are the tungus, naguals, Shamen, Borkor, Atlanteans, Pleiadens, old or new.

[steve]

No, problem. Though you should know by now: That if I really thought that this person was a fraud then I would've definitely have said so. I also would've condemned his works as something not to be read a long time ago on this forum.

I have no doubt of that and I did not intend to imply that I think he is a fraud or to challenge his attainment.

I was exploring the whole idea of spiritual authority.

The very act of delegating authority to another in spiritual matters warrants careful consideration.

Spirituality is the inner exploration.

While most of us need a path of some sort for a time, once we accept an authority and adopt their answers as our own, we close ourselves off.

I was curious as to who we are willing to accept as our spiritual authorities and whose definition of Enlightenment we are willing to adopt.

[Simple_Jack]

I have no doubt of that and I did not intend to imply that I think he is a fraud or to challenge his attainment.

I was exploring the whole idea of spiritual authority.

The very act of delegating authority to another in spiritual matters warrants careful consideration.

Spirituality is the inner exploration.

While most of us need a path of some sort for a time, once we accept an authority and adopt their answers as our own, we close ourselves off.

I was curious as to who we are willing to accept as our spiritual authorities and whose definition of Enlightenment we are willing to adopt.

The very act of delegating authority to another in spiritual matters warrants careful consideration.

Spirituality is the inner exploration.

I don't necessarily disagree with your post. Nan Huai Chins books not only deal with the theory of Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, but also deal with the practical aspects of actual cultivation and seeing truth (especially his books Working Toward Enlightenment and To Realize Enlightenment.) His books start to really make sense when you actually reach the levels of meditation and insight he discusses.

 

While most of us need a path of some sort for a time, once we accept an authority and adopt their answers as our own, we close ourselves off.

I don't really buy that. It's become cliche on here for everyone to automatically dismiss the teachings of the different traditions, so that it won't challenge their current paradigm; without actually proving if they lead to the intended result. A lot of the time on here, it's just arrogance and self-pride disguised as an agnostic view point or being pragmatic. Of course, I'm not advocating blind faith either, but going beyond our own limited outlook based off of preconceived notions and emotional opinions...Using cultivation in a scientific manner in order to see if what the different traditions promise as their results is valid.

 

A person is only an authority, if they actually have attained to what their respective tradition claims as it's goals. Through that experience (gained through their cultivation,) they than can help others who have trust in them, to realize the same results that they have gained.

 

I was curious as to who we are willing to accept as our spiritual authorities and whose definition of Enlightenment we are willing to adopt.

That all depends on our karma and merit as to what teacher becomes our spiritual adviser so to speak. As for what tradition we choose to ultimately put our faith into: Again that depends on our karmic conditions.

[3bob]

All these bodies, all these minds are things.

 

The real is not one or even all of these things,

and knowing that is not a knowing that things can have.

 

Things may be gained and things may be lost,

but the "Wonder of wonders" can not be gained or lost,

further no being, power or school can give or take that away,

although such can help prepare and help bring synchronization

but even then it still comes down to itself revealing itself

to itself, which "things" can not take separate credit for...

[Lucky7Strikes]

Actually, I've mainly used Mahamudra as part of my practice. I've just plagiarized Thusness's words, because I like the way he describes each phase of insight. Also, because it is a more modern way of describing the different insights into experience.

Who and where did you learn Mahamudra teachings?

 

The six yogas of Naropa is taught only to initiates who have gone through extensive preparation. You can't learn it from a book.

 

Though, I don't focus on describing the transformations of the body on the path in my posts (I focus only on prajna wisdom in my posts here): I myself am working toward the attainment of both the sambhogakaya (bliss-body gained through the purification/transformation of the 5 elements of the body) and nirmanakaya or perfect rupakaya.

 

Though, how about we make a deal, lol: If I do manage to achieve what I've said above, I'll show up in your dreams or send a transformation body or I'll fly or teleport to your house or some shit. Deal?

Isn't it contradictory to have realized anatta and emptiness and yet strive for personal attainments or purification of such thing as the body? Shouldn't everything be, the nirvana or samasara arising, treated equally as it arises as one taste? If you reside in the ultimate, the relative, such thing as purification or transformation, should cease to guide your actions. If the relative still sways your direction in life, then you haven't yet fully discarded your personality or desires for preservation or escaping from samsara.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes