Meditation is not a good way for practising

[Lao Tzu]

I know from experience that anybody who has never had something, but gives their opinion about it like they have achieved it, in reality normally hasn't. As always i could be disastrously wrong, right? After all, you could in fact be an enlightened immortal who just likes to spend Saturday nights on the internet. Everything is possible.

 

How about you, do you accept with everything you know, that you could be completely wrong? Are you capable of accepting that probability for yourself?

 

I have a question for you then, to test your position. If you claim that the Tao is everywhere and all the time, then why is it that "intention", the mind, the will of man. Things that are all by definition, all manifestations of the Tao, are in your exact words in "conflict" with the Tao? Don't you see that as a contradiction?

I am not an immortal, there are something I do not know. But I think I know something about Dao.

I don't think I am completely wrong. Because I got some ideas from the books, and justified it through my practice.

When we say "Dao is everywhere", it means everything is a manifestation of Dao,

and when we say "it is conflict with Dao", it means Dao has a natural way leading to live. If something is departing off the natural way, it will go to death. BUT, you can still regard this thing as a manifestation of the Dao.

[effilang]

I am not an immortal, there are something I do not know. But I think I know something about Dao.

I don't think I am completely wrong. Because I got some ideas from the books, and justified it through my practice.

When we say "Dao is everywhere", it means everything is a manifestation of Dao,

and when we say "it is conflict with Dao", it means Dao has a natural way leading to live. If something is departing off the natural way, it will go to death. BUT, you can still regard this thing as a manifestation of the Dao.

 

Aaaaaah! I think i finally got it people. How could i have been so blind.

 

Sitting down and not thinking about anything, is not in accordance with the Tao, because we are intending to sit and intending not to think.

 

BUT, intending not to sit down and intending not to NOT think, is in accordance with the Tao, because we are not intending to sit or concentrate.

 

One intention must be better than the other.

Makes perfect sense now.....................

 

I think Lao Tzu, that it is possible that you do not differentiate between intention and thought. They are two different things, that seem as one.

 

 

Intention when it is coarse, that is in the beginning stages of meditation. Always needs thought motivated by desire to be directed in order to be utilized. It relies on thought to direct it.

 

Later though, you can control intention directly without thought. It is a sort of empty intention that provides a concentration, but it is a concentration void of thought. That is how good meditators can use their intention for concentrating and for catalyzing the alchemical transformations that take place in both our methods.

 

If concentration requires thinking, and thoughts are a product of the fire of the heart and the desires of the senses. Then a thought free of the desires is in essence empty concentration.

 

That is TRUE intention. Empty intention. Intention empty of desire driven thoughts. Empty intention and thought is the closest most humans come to the Tao in my opinion. Every once in a while everyone has a spark of this emptiness. True masters do it naturally. Acting without acting. Acting without the desire to act. Simply acting. Wu Wei as some have already said. "Action without action".

 

That IS active meditation.

Edited December 31, 2011 by effilang

[Lao Tzu]

...acheiving Dao through "active mindful meditation" is almost impossible.

Really? Can you please explain then, how long it takes to achieve the Tao with active meditation and how long with your method? You know, just so that statement produces SOME evidence of practical rationalization, and not simply philosophical claim.

What are the physical and energetic manifestations of your method in the body and how do you measure the progress of your cultivation? Further more, if you can't measure or identify the manifestations of your practice within your body, then how can you compare it to other methods in order to have the grounds upon which to claim that active meditation is "almost impossible" to achieve, or that your method is better?

What is your basis for practical comparison?

Because Dao is so complicated, only the immortals(sages) know exactly how to acheive it through active meditation. And in reality, to find a real immortal is almost impossible, so I said that.

How long? I don't know, I think it depends how well you/I did.

When I practice well, I can feel Chi in my body, and feel stronger and healthier.

The active meditation, I did it before and not so much good feeling, further more, when I read the books and got the idea, put the idea into practice, I experienced the difference. So in theory and practice, I convinced myself that active meditation is not the true Dao and therefore it is not the best practice method.

[Lao Tzu]

Aaaaaah! I think i finally got it people. How could i have been so blind.

 

Sitting down and not thinking about anything, is not in accordance with the Tao, because we are intending to sit and intending not to think.

 

No, that is not what I mean.

Sitting down and not thinking about anything, is not in accordance with the Tao, not because you are intending to sit and intending not to think.

It is because the sitting and keeping a empty mind is not natural.

[effilang]

No, that is not what I mean.

Sitting down and not thinking about anything, is not in accordance with the Tao, not because you are intending to sit and intending not to think.

It is because the sitting and keeping a empty mind is not natural.

 

So you're saying that if a person does not use his mind to intend to sit down and not think, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to ever happen naturally during the day?

 

Based on what criteria do you define what is natural to the Tao and what not and why do you believe that source so strongly?

 

Because Dao is so complicated, only the immortals(sages) know exactly how to acheive it through active meditation. And in reality, to find a real immortal is almost impossible, so I said that.

 

To say that it is impossible to achieve, because only a sage knows how to do it is false. Sages and Buddhas were normal people too.

Anyhow. In actuality, there are a lot of books that explain the entire process of attaining immortality. So one definitely doesn't need to find an immortal, he need only cultivate a strong will and practice regularly. That is of course, the hard part : )

 

AND SINCE YOU SAID THAT. Should i assume that if YOU claim that the only way to cultivate the TAO via active meditation is through an immortal, that when you had your personal experience with active meditation, that it was through an immortal that you, well... found? - And if not then doesn't that essentially mean based on your beliefs that, the experience you had with active meditation was not genuine or credible? And if it was not credible, then why do you have such strong negative opinions about it?........ Oops.

 

When I practice well, I can feel Chi in my body, and feel stronger and healthier.

 

Wait. What? So now you're practicing? And not only that, but you're doing it "well". Sounds like you are using intention and you don't even know it. Either you're practicing non-doing or you're practicing doing or both. But between those two i believe lies emptiness. You can only get to the center by practicing one of the former two. Otherwise if we could voluntarily enter emptiness, well. That would defy any reason for us studying Taoism.

Seriously though. Ok, but so do active meditators. So, maybe the force is also strong with active meditators if we experience the same thing, eh?

 

The active meditation, I did it before and not so much good feeling, further more, when I read the books and got the idea, put the idea into practice, I experienced the difference. So in theory and practice, I convinced myself that active meditation is not the true Dao and therefore it is not the best practice method.

 

No, No, No... You can't jump from saying "I" did it before and didn't have a good experience to saying, "THEREFORE it is not the true Tao". The leap between the two statements is as big as the grand canyon and filled with as big irrationalities.

 

What i think you SHOULD be saying here is.

 

"Active meditation, is not the most effective method of cultivating the Tao FOR ME , MY BODY, SPIRIT, SOUL and what have you there."

 

You can't claim based on your singular personal experience that a particular method is unanimously counter productive in pursuing the Tao to the entire human race.

 

Hello world, i have concluded that based on my humble experience this is not in accordance with Tao for everyone.

 

One thing works for someone and it doesn't for another. Do you understand the point i'm trying to make?

 

Here. If you have two people, one is an active meditator and one is a passive meditator, humor me... If both of these practitioners achieve similar results with their respective methods, is one of them not in accordance with the Tao? Is one of them doing it good and the other bad?

 

Are you in accordance with the Tao?

 

PS: It would be nice if instead of cherry picking the one or two of my questions that you could find something to reply to, that you actually address the other 10 or so that completely contradict what you're saying...

 

But hey what the hell. It's not like we're trying to make sense?

 

Edited December 31, 2011 by effilang

[skydog]

[skydog]

[skydog]

[steve]

1. It is NOT the intention of the Dao, because Dao has no intention.

2. It is just an intention of a human being.

3. You are a manifestation of Dao; that is saying that your spirit and your body are born with Dao. But if you have an intention, the intention is beyond the natural way of Dao, it leads you to a path toward death.

4. The sages found that no intention is consistent with Dao.

And what if your intention is to follow Dao?

That seems to be the case with you.

 

I'm not sure that I agree that intention is beyond the natural way of Dao.

I'm not so sure it's that simple.

Intention means a determination to act in a certain way.

Humans have the natural capacity to think and make decisions.

Is it Zi Ran 自然 to fight against using that capacity?

Is that being authentic?

I think that is an attempt to be something other than what we are.

 

It's easy to "think" that we understand what the sages were saying by "choosing" not to make choices, by "intending" not to use our intention, by using other thinking mind to try and "understand" something the sages (and you) tell us is beyond understanding. But I think that is fooling ourselves in a way.

 

Having the tool of the thinking mind and choice is part of what makes us human. Some people confuse Wu Wei with not acting, not making choices. I disagree.

I think it has more to do with being in touch with what we truly are as humans and not interfering with that by trying to be something we are not.

[Aaron]

Because Dao is so complicated, only the immortals(sages) know exactly how to acheive it through active meditation.

 

Yay! This must mean I'm an immortal! Where do I go to pick up my membership card?

 

 

Aaron

 

 

[steve]

Because Dao is so complicated, only the immortals(sages) know exactly how to acheive it through active meditation.

....

 

So in theory and practice, I convinced myself that active meditation is not the true Dao and therefore it is not the best practice method.

I'll debate these points with you.

The Dao is not complicated, it is simplicity in and of itself. It is 自然.

It is only the brain that projects complication because it cannot understand it.

That is because the Dao is outside of understanding, it can't be captured by our rational brain.

And yet you "think" that you have the answer...

Like you said, one cannot achieve it, not even the sages and immortals, because it is not an achievement, it is 自然.

 

If you "convinced" yourself that "active meditation is not the true Dao" who is doing the convincing? And doesn't that mean there is an intention behind your actions? There is no best practice method because Dao exists 自然 - independent of practice. Practices can help people to explore aspects of themselves they might otherwise neglect. And being an authentic human (自然) involves being aware of oneself (and everything around oneself) at a very deep and accurate level - in my opinion.

[Lao Tzu]

 

So you're saying that if a person does not use his mind to intend to sit down and not think, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to ever happen naturally during the day?

 

Based on what criteria do you define what is natural to the Tao and what not and why do you believe that source so strongly?

 

Not exactly.

Maybe sometimes, one wants to sit down and not think. But this is just natural happened, so it could be natural. But if you intend to do so for Dao, then the process is not natural.

Criteria? I just use my logic thinking. If you disagree, we can discuss.

 

 

To say that it is impossible to achieve, because only a sage knows how to do it is false. Sages and Buddhas were normal people too.

Anyhow. In actuality, there are a lot of books that explain the entire process of attaining immortality. So one definitely doesn't need to find an immortal, he need only cultivate a strong will and practice regularly. That is of course, the hard part : )

 

AND SINCE YOU SAID THAT. Should i assume that if YOU claim that the only way to cultivate the TAO via active meditation is through an immortal, that when you had your personal experience with active meditation, that it was through an immortal that you, well... found? - And if not then doesn't that essentially mean based on your beliefs that, the experience you had with active meditation was not genuine or credible? And if it was not credible, then why do you have such strong negative opinions about it?........ Oops.

 

Sages were normal people, but in some aspect, they are different from ordinary people.

That is true. There are a lot of books that explain the entire process of attaining immortality. But for active meditation, it is not enough to practise just according the books.

No. When I did meditation before, I didnt know it should be instructed by an immortal. So I just did on my own.

Yes, the experience I had with active meditation was not genuine or credible. The experience west guys had with active meditation were not genuine or credible, either. Because it is not genuine, so I put a negative opinion on it, does it make sense?

 

 

 

Wait. What? So now you're practicing? And not only that, but you're doing it "well". Sounds like you are using intention and you don't even know it. Either you're practicing non-doing or you're practicing doing or both. But between those two i believe lies emptiness. You can only get to the center by practicing one of the former two. Otherwise if we could voluntarily enter emptiness, well. That would defy any reason for us studying Taoism.

Seriously though. Ok, but so do active meditators. So, maybe the force is also strong with active meditators if we experience the same thing, eh?

 

Yes, I am practicing. And I am doing it well. It has no intention when you really get into the process of practice. At the beginning for me, maybe a little bit, but for an immortal, there is no intention at all.

Non-doing doesn’t mean really doing nothing. It means doing everything without desire and with an awareness of what the things truly are.

If you can feel your body become stronger and healthier when you are meditating actively, congratulations, you can ignore what I said and keep going on. But I guess most of the cases are not like this.

 

 

 

 

 

No, No, No... You can't jump from saying "I" did it before and didn't have a good experience to saying, "THEREFORE it is not the true Tao". The leap between the two statements is as big as the grand canyon and filled with as big irrationalities.

 

What i think you SHOULD be saying here is.

 

"Active meditation, is not the most effective method of cultivating the Tao FOR ME , MY BODY, SPIRIT, SOUL and what have you there."

 

You can't claim based on your singular personal experience that a particular method is unanimously counter productive in pursuing the Tao to the entire human race.

 

Hello world, i have concluded that based on my humble experience this is not in accordance with Tao for everyone.

 

One thing works for someone and it doesn't for another. Do you understand the point i'm trying to make?

 

I surely understand what you are saying here.

BUT, When I said THEREFORE it is not the true Tao, It equals I think it is not the true Tao

When a person said something, something must come from the persons mind. But it is not necessary for him to say every sentences starting with a I think. SO, can I think it is not the true Tao and say that without I think?

 

 

Here. If you have two people, one is an active meditator and one is a passive meditator, humor me... If both of these practitioners achieve similar results with their respective methods, is one of them not in accordance with the Tao? Is one of them doing it good and the other bad?

 

If both of these practitioners achieve similar results with their respective methods, THEN both of them are in accordance with the Tao.

BUT, it is just IF. I doubt it.

But, as I said above, if you can feel your body become stronger and healthier when you are meditating actively, congratulations, you can ignore what I said and keep going on.

 

 

Are you in accordance with the Tao?

 

No, I havent.

PS: It is an amazing type of discussion with you like this. I appreciate it.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[Lao Tzu]

have to leave, reply others later, sorry and thanks

[Lao Tzu]

[Lao Tzu]

Yay! This must mean I'm an immortal! Where do I go to pick up my membership card?

 

 

Aaron

 

If it is true, you must had known it before you heard what I said.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[Lao Tzu]

[ChiDragon]

Lao Tzu....

Based what I had leaned from the sages as you say; if one meditate without going into deep breathing, I guess the chi inside the body won't be scrambled to cause any harm, 走火入魔(run fire enter the devil).

[Lao Tzu]

Lao Tzu....

Based what I had leaned from the sages as you say; if one meditate without going into deep breathing, I guess the chi inside the body won't be scrambled to cause any harm, 走火入魔(run fire enter the devil).

1. What is deep breathing? I don't know. Can you explain?

2. When one is meditating, he is manipulating the Chi inside his body, right? So how can he ensure the Chi go well if he doesn't exactly know the secret of the Dao in his body?

Edited January 1, 2012 by Lao Tzu

[Protector]

 

2. When one is meditating, he is manipulating the Chi inside his body, right? So how can he ensure the Chi go well if he doesn't exactly know the secret of the Dao in his body?

 

That's the point, there are lots of books and masters who made stuff like that a common knowledge

[Lao Tzu]

That's the point, there are lots of books and masters who made stuff like that a common knowledge

What kind of books? written by the modern Qigong masters or the ancient sages?

In my opinion, the working of Chi(Dao) in your body is too complicated to be performed under the help of the books or some teachers, unless he is an immortal. I can not say more about this, even though I want to. So believe me or not. That is it.

[Protector]

How about modern sages

 

I got most of the stuff from the word of mouth but in the actual books, the whole thing get simplified so a person could start off by himself. For example, a person can start off by focusing on 7 chakras in one's body instead of each and every little thing. If nothing get on the way of this person, everything is fine. But sometimes a person has some special problems with their body that require outside help from someone who knows this stuff better.

A person can also learn about their body by observing it, but that's kinda hard. If someone needs help, he asks for it and maybe someone who had the same problem will help out. That's when such a person goes to a forum like this, but it's not as good as having someone actually take a look at the problem up close and find the best solution.

[ChiDragon]

1. What is deep breathing? I don't know. Can you explain?

2. When one is meditating, he is manipulating the Chi inside his body, right? So how can he ensure the Chi go well if he doesn't exactly know the secret of the Dao in his body?

 

Deep breathing is 深呼吸.

 

What is your definition of meditation in Chinese....???

 

What is your definition of chi in Chinese....???

Edited January 1, 2012 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

What kind of books? written by the modern Qigong masters or the ancient sages?

In my opinion, the working of Chi(Dao) in your body is too complicated to be performed under the help of the books or some teachers, unless he is an immortal. I can not say more about this, even though I want to. So believe me or not. That is it.

 

Not all meditations are qigong meditations. Some meditations can be taught by non-immortals, and are natural and beneficial to health. Just watching the breath and keeping good posture is the basis for a lot of buddhist practice. A lot of people find it beneficial in a lot of ways!!

 

isn't something beneficial to health in accord with the dao?

[Lao Tzu]

How about modern sages

 

I got most of the stuff from the word of mouth but in the actual books, the whole thing get simplified so a person could start off by himself. For example, a person can start off by focusing on 7 chakras in one's body instead of each and every little thing. If nothing get on the way of this person, everything is fine. But sometimes a person has some special problems with their body that require outside help from someone who knows this stuff better.

A person can also learn about their body by observing it, but that's kinda hard. If someone needs help, he asks for it and maybe someone who had the same problem will help out. That's when such a person goes to a forum like this, but it's not as good as having someone actually take a look at the problem up close and find the best solution.

You mean you read some books which were written by a modern sages? Can you tell me the sages' names?

 

"focusing on 7 chakras in one's body"? That is not good.

[konchog uma]

"focusing on 7 chakras in one's body"? That is not good.

 

poor guy. Whats wrong with inner light?? I do chakra meditations every day, they are very beneficial!!

 

Do you speak from any experience?