Meditation is not a good way for practising

[Gerard]

No meditation eh?

 

I think delusion has been mastered if someone believes they can break through samsara by adopting a "carrot/doing nothing" attitude.

 

Some background/corrective info:

 

http://viewonbuddhism.org/delusions_pride_ignorance_doubt_loneliness.html

 

Now that we have identified the problem, let's tackle it objectively:

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/develop.htm

 

Using this method:

 

http://www.vipassanadhura.com/howto.htm#aa

http://www.mahamakuta.inet.co.th/english/b-way%287%29.html

 

After practicing insight meditation for a long time then you realise that something is changing slowly in your entire self, that you are actually progressing in the spiritual path rather than discussing online about the no need of meditation since it is useless.

 

Practice, practice, practice.

[Lao Tzu]

No meditation eh?

 

I think delusion has been mastered if someone believes they can break through samsara by adopting a "carrot/doing nothing" attitude.

 

Some background/corrective info:

 

http://viewonbuddhism.org/delusions_pride_ignorance_doubt_loneliness.html

 

Now that we have identified the problem, let's tackle it objectively:

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/develop.htm

 

Using this method:

 

http://www.vipassanadhura.com/howto.htm#aa

http://www.mahamakuta.inet.co.th/english/b-way%287%29.html

 

After practicing insight meditation for a long time then you realise that something is changing slowly in your entire self, that you are actually progressing in the spiritual path rather than discussing online about the no need of meditation since it is useless.

 

Practice, practice, practice.

Yes, my opinions are based on my experience.

[steve]

Achievement doesn/t mean conceptualization or description.

Dao is everywhere, you just did not notice or realize it.

You are a part of the Dao, and you are a manifestation of Dao.

If your mind can keep correspondence with Dao, you are actually "achieving it".

And this is true meditation in the way I define it.

So we are in agreement.

 

And if we practice meditative exercises are we farther from realization of and confluence with Dao or closer?

And if such exercises help our minds to be tranquil and let go of the distractions of social life, is that taking us farther from or closer to manifestation of Dao?

 

When we are not practicing meditative exercises and wrapped up in our daily lives - work and family worries, and so on, are we closer to manifesting Dao or farther?

 

When things are quiet and nothing needs doing, we often feel uncomfortable.

Our natural tendency as conditioned members of society is to be a slave to the thinking mind, to always be doing something, becoming something, gaining something, avoiding something, or achieving something.

These patterns seem to be what distracts us from being what we are - a manifestation of Dao, an authentic human being.

And at the same time, these patterns ARE what we are.

Although I'll allow that they can be considered artificial patterns of conditioning imposed by generations of socialization.

 

Meditative exercises can help people to become more comfortable with not doing, not becoming, and just being.

In so far as they achieve this, then I believe your initial post is inaccurate.

Although we need to be careful that meditation does not become just another doing, an attempt to become something other than what we are.

Because if meditation is about gaining something or becoming something other than what we are, then I believe your initial post is accurate.

 

And I acknowledge that what I just wrote is somewhat paradoxical, and that is the nature of meditation as I see it.

 

I've begun to sit at the front door of my house from time to time, with the door open, with my dog sitting along with me, just being.

We watch what passes by our field of vision, are aware of each other and ourselves, and there is nothing to be done.

It's wonderful.

[Lao Tzu]

And this is true meditation in the way I define it.

So we are in agreement.

 

And if we practice meditative exercises are we farther from realization of and confluence with Dao or closer?

And if such exercises help our minds to be tranquil and let go of the distractions of social life, is that taking us farther from or closer to manifestation of Dao?

 

When we are not practicing meditative exercises and wrapped up in our daily lives - work and family worries, and so on, are we closer to manifesting Dao or farther?

 

When things are quiet and nothing needs doing, we often feel uncomfortable.

Our natural tendency as conditioned members of society is to be a slave to the thinking mind, to always be doing something, becoming something, gaining something, avoiding something, or achieving something.

These patterns seem to be what distracts us from being what we are - a manifestation of Dao, an authentic human being.

And at the same time, these patterns ARE what we are.

Although I'll allow that they can be considered artificial patterns of conditioning imposed by generations of socialization.

 

Meditative exercises can help people to become more comfortable with not doing, not becoming, and just being.

In so far as they achieve this, then I believe your initial post is inaccurate.

Although we need to be careful that meditation does not become just another doing, an attempt to become something other than what we are.

Because if meditation is about gaining something or becoming something other than what we are, then I believe your initial post is accurate.

 

And I acknowledge that what I just wrote is somewhat paradoxical, and that is the nature of meditation as I see it.

 

I've begun to sit at the front door of my house from time to time, with the door open, with my dog sitting along with me, just being.

We watch what passes by our field of vision, are aware of each other and ourselves, and there is nothing to be done.

It's wonderful.

So there are lots of different types of meditations. The common meditations are not good ways for pratice Dao. Can I say it this way?

Dealing with everything without desire, that is living in Dao.

[Protector]

I've been here just a few months and I already get worked up over this stuff with you guys, am I starting to feel a connection?

 

Putting books and meditation aside, I'd say religious way is even better for reaching/feeling/getting it/understanding Dao

[Lao Tzu]

I've been here just a few months and I already get worked up over this stuff with you guys, am I starting to feel a connection?

 

Putting books and meditation aside, I'd say religious way is even better for reaching/feeling/getting it/understanding Dao

Before you do anything for Dao, you must learn something, unless you are an immortal once you were born.

[Protector]

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

 

[Lao Tzu]

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

 

It is difficult for me to get your points when I read what you said.

[Protector]

It is difficult for me to get your points when I read what you said.

 

That's ok, almost no one can

 

Here's a theory I have about why sages are so powerful without meditation and qi gong

You know about Jing Chi and Yi, right? To do an action(jing), a person needs to intend it(yi), and for that to work, intention uses energy(chi). People meditate and exercise for hours to get enough chi to do whatever they want to do. That is very hard and annoying. If a person is a sage, he can merge his intention with the intention of the universe(shen). When a person is like that, the person is one with the Dao.

[Lao Tzu]

That's ok, almost no one can

 

Here's a theory I have about why sages are so powerful without meditation and qi gong

You know about Jing Chi and Yi, right? To do an action(jing), a person needs to intend it(yi), and for that to work, intention uses energy(chi). People meditate and exercise for hours to get enough chi to do whatever they want to do. That is very hard and annoying. If a person is a sage, he can merge his intention with the intention of the universe(shen). When a person is like that, the person is one with the Dao.

Your this text is still difficult for me to understand.

[Protector]

I can't make it any simpler

DOES ANYONE HERE SPEAK CHINESE?

[effilang]

Achievement doesn/t mean conceptualization or description.

Dao is everywhere, you just did not notice or realize it.

You are a part of the Dao, and you are a manifestation of Dao.

If your mind can keep correspondence with Dao, you are actually "achieving it".

 

There are passive Yin methods of realizing the Dao and there are active Yang methods of realizing the Tao.

 

I don't understand why people are still being one-sided when we exist in a reality of duality. One method will never be the only way.

 

Lao Tzu. Yes you can achieve the Tao passively by living mindfully of it, or "corresponding" as you put it, but that is only objectively a form of passive contemplation. Relatively speaking, being mindful of ANY idea or construct already means that you are actively meditating. So the common sitting meditation methods of internal alchemy are really not that far off from the types of practice you describe. They are simply a more active version, which through concentration yield faster results.

 

I agree with you in saying that one need only live in the Tao and be aware of it to begin experiencing spiritual transformations of the energetic and physical body. Yes this is so. Internal alchemy, that is, what you call bad practices are basically an active variation of this.

 

To break it down to it's base most, meditation is concentration at it's core. The concentration over "nothing", or the concentration over "something". Mindfulness over an object, sound, sight, a process or a goal. You, by choosing to be mindful or the Tao are automatically meditating. You can not live every day in the Tao, without being mindful of that idea, and that already implies a conscious effort to re-direct the thoughts from the state of the monkey-mind through concentration, to achieving something. So, whether you think of it that way or not, you are doing what everyone else is doing while meditating, only with less direction.

 

You are like a dry sponge in a hot bathtub, floating on the surface of the water and slowly sinking into it by letting it soak into you. Activate meditators are also the sponge, but we contract by will and soak in that water considerably faster.

 

Figuratively speaking your method of cultivation empties the mind of desire and goals, and willfully being mindful of what is greater, the TAO. In doing so you open a connection to the TAO and invite it to flow through you, by emptying your vessel, you allow the TAO to enter you and transform your mind and body. Although this also yields results, it is a slower process. I know because i can sense the difference during active meditation and passive meditation. Now, Alchemical cultivators on the other hand have an advantage over this method, because not only do they practice the above mentioned, but they actively prompt the Tao into them. I say they have an advantage, because they automatically apply both passive and active meditations at the same time.

 

The underlying problem here is that, many practitioners have a difficult time finding something that works, and with the amount of options available to us today due to the openness of the internet, it takes even longer to sort that which works for you from that which doesn't. And eventually when someone finds something compatible to their virtues, that is finally bearing fruit, they assume it's THE ONLY WAY. This is the conundrum. People have to understand that what works and what doesn't is completely relative. Having said that. NO MATTER what applies to you, a balance between YIN and YANG methods is the fastest path to cultivation. You must seek a form of passive activity. A Yang within Yin. Even the Buddha of India found that the middle way bore the sweetest fruit.

 

People who have something to argue about, or have points to defend, are in that already demonstrating their attachment to things. Making their pride and arrogance towards their practice methods disturbingly obvious. The only people i care to listen to and whose posts i admire are those that accept and advise the effective potential of all methods under the sun, while being able to clearly differentiate and consciously analyze and comprehend their practical differences.

 

I don't think we are here to argue whether one thing can work or another can't. If you are, then you've already dropped the ball. What is left to debate here, is the effectiveness of one method over the other. This website is in a way, more or less an educational hub and i like to think it is one populated by individuals of relatively decent intellectuality. Having said that, Lao Tzu, i really dislike your posts for the mere reason that you provide no foundational argumentation over your postulations.

 

On the premise that introductory meditators come here to find ways to cultivate themselves, i find it unacceptable and almost maliciously misleading to make the statements you do without giving potentially uninformed cultivators the sufficient data to make informed decisions and inadvertently misdirecting newbie readers.

 

You mentioned somewhere something about right methods and wrong methods with what has been documented by the "sages". If you pay more attention you will realize that the method of cultivation you subscribe to is very well known and also very often documented. However, in addition to the description of methodologies you will find in most Taoist books, there are also detailed explanations on which is slower, which faster, because of what and why. Cultivators and researchers of spiritual evolution since the beginning of humanity have tried and died to find what is best suited to the potential of the human being. Because of their efforts, there is a wide range of choices in cultivation today. If you want to make claims on superior practice methodology, elaborate why. At the least in respect of their courage and endeavors. Most people here are past the delusion of works and doesn't work. So you're going to have to do a little better to make your statements stick.

 

I like that the thread has brought up much conversation, but for one that makes claims against something, there is very little follow through to back it up from a practical perspective, other than the occasional "it is my experience", which is beyond lacking in substance in my extra humble opinion : )

 

Edited December 31, 2011 by effilang

[steve]

That's ok, almost no one can

 

Here's a theory I have about why sages are so powerful without meditation and qi gong

You know about Jing Chi and Yi, right? To do an action(jing), a person needs to intend it(yi), and for that to work, intention uses energy(chi). People meditate and exercise for hours to get enough chi to do whatever they want to do. That is very hard and annoying. If a person is a sage, he can merge his intention with the intention of the universe(shen). When a person is like that, the person is one with the Dao.

One thing that I think about sometimes is how we know that the intention of the person is NOT the intention of the universe/Dao?

If my intention is not that of Dao, what is it?

If my intention is not that of Dao, that would mean that I am NOT a manifestation of Dao...

Who is it that decides which intention is or is not consistent with Dao?

I suspect the answer will be to follow what the sages said but I tend to eschew authority...

[Protector]

Wu Wei all the Way

[Aetherous]

Wei wu wei. Boom.

[Lao Tzu]

There are passive Yin methods of realizing the Dao and there are active Yang methods of realizing the Tao.

 

I don't understand why people are still being one-sided when we exist in a reality of duality. One method will never be the only way.

 

Lao Tzu. Yes you can achieve the Tao passively by living mindfully of it, or "corresponding" as you put it, but that is only objectively a form of passive contemplation. Relatively speaking, being mindful of ANY idea or construct already means that you are actively meditating. So the common sitting meditation methods of internal alchemy are really not that far off from the types of practice you describe. They are simply a more active version, which through concentration yield faster results.

 

I agree with you in saying that one need only live in the Tao and be aware of it to begin experiencing spiritual transformations of the energetic and physical body. Yes this is so. Internal alchemy, that is, what you call bad practices are basically an active variation of this.

 

To break it down to it's base most, meditation is concentration at it's core. The concentration over "nothing", or the concentration over "something". Mindfulness over an object, sound, sight, a process or a goal. You, by choosing to be mindful or the Tao are automatically meditating. You can not live every day in the Tao, without being mindful of that idea, and that already implies a conscious effort to re-direct the thoughts from the state of the monkey-mind through concentration, to achieving something. So, whether you think of it that way or not, you are doing what everyone else is doing while meditating, only with less direction.

 

You are like a dry sponge in a hot bathtub, floating on the surface of the water and slowly sinking into it by letting it soak into you. Activate meditators are also the sponge, but we contract by will and soak in that water considerably faster.

 

Figuratively speaking your method of cultivation empties the mind of desire and goals, and willfully being mindful of what is greater, the TAO. In doing so you open a connection to the TAO and invite it to flow through you, by emptying your vessel, you allow the TAO to enter you and transform your mind and body. Although this also yields results, it is a slower process. I know because i can sense the difference during active meditation and passive meditation. Now, Alchemical cultivators on the other hand have an advantage over this method, because not only do they practice the above mentioned, but they actively prompt the Tao into them. I say they have an advantage, because they automatically apply both passive and active meditations at the same time.

 

The underlying problem here is that, many practitioners have a difficult time finding something that works, and with the amount of options available to us today due to the openness of the internet, it takes even longer to sort that which works for you from that which doesn't. And eventually when someone finds something compatible to their virtues, that is finally bearing fruit, they assume it's THE ONLY WAY. This is the conundrum. People have to understand that what works and what doesn't is completely relative. Having said that. NO MATTER what applies to you, a balance between YIN and YANG methods is the fastest path to cultivation. You must seek a form of passive activity. A Yang within Yin. Even the Buddha of India found that the middle way bore the sweetest fruit.

 

People who have something to argue about, or have points to defend, are in that already demonstrating their attachment to things. Making their pride and arrogance towards their practice methods disturbingly obvious. The only people i care to listen to and whose posts i admire are those that accept and advise the effective potential of all methods under the sun, while being able to clearly differentiate and consciously analyze and comprehend their practical differences.

 

I don't think we are here to argue whether one thing can work or another can't. If you are, then you've already dropped the ball. What is left to debate here, is the effectiveness of one method over the other. This website is in a way, more or less an educational hub and i like to think it is one populated by individuals of relatively decent intellectuality. Having said that, Lao Tzu, i really dislike your posts for the mere reason that you provide no foundational argumentation over your postulations.

 

On the premise that introductory meditators come here to find ways to cultivate themselves, i find it unacceptable and almost maliciously misleading to make the statements you do without giving potentially uninformed cultivators the sufficient data to make informed decisions and inadvertently misdirecting newbie readers.

 

You mentioned somewhere something about right methods and wrong methods with what has been documented by the "sages". If you pay more attention you will realize that the method of cultivation you subscribe to is very well known and also very often documented. In addition to the description of methodologies, there are also detailed explanations over which is slower, which faster, because of what and why. Cultivators and researchers of spiritual evolution since the beginning of humanity have tried and died to find what is best suited to the potential of the human being. Because of their efforts, there is a wide range of choices in cultivation today. If you want to make claims on superior practice methodology, elaborate why. At the least in respect of their efforts. Most people here are past the delusion of works and doesn't work. So you're going to have to do a little better to make your statements stick.

 

I like that the thread has brought up much conversation, but for one that makes claims against something, there is very little follow through to back it up from a practical perspective, other than the occasional "it is my experience", which is beyond lacking in substance in my extra humble opinion : )

 

In my opinion, there are two different practice methods for Dao. One is not a good choice in reality; anther is the best choice.

In your opinion, you regard this two methods as two right ways for Dao. And you think mine is slower.

That is our difference, right?

I have given my grounds here. Maybe I can bring more in the future.

[effilang]

I have given my grounds here.

 

Actually, no you didn't.

 

But if you did, it would probably have read something like "<insert substantial logical argument based on comparative practical experience through exercise> followed by... and this is why i think one is not a good choice in reality; anther is the best choice. "

 

I guess one can only dream...

Edited December 31, 2011 by effilang

[Lao Tzu]

1. One thing that I think about sometimes is how we know that the intention of the person is NOT the intention of the universe/Dao?

2. If my intention is not that of Dao, what is it?

3. If my intention is not that of Dao, that would mean that I am NOT a manifestation of Dao...

4. Who is it that decides which intention is or is not consistent with Dao?

I suspect the answer will be to follow what the sages said but I tend to eschew authority...

1. It is NOT the intention of the Dao, because Dao has no intention.

2. It is just an intention of a human being.

3. You are a manifestation of Dao; that is saying that your spirit and your body are born with Dao. But if you have an intention, the intention is beyond the natural way of Dao, it leads you to a path toward death.

4. The sages found that no intention is consistent with Dao.

[Lao Tzu]

Actually, no you didn't.

 

But if you did, it would probably have read something like "<insert substantial logical argument based on comparative practical experience through exercise> followed by... and this is why i think one is not a good choice in reality; anther is the best choice. "

 

I guess one can only dream...

I have brought two passages written by two sages TO support my opinion. One sage is zhangziyang, another is laozi. The passages are "Jindan 400 words" and "Qingjing Jing"

And, I gave my logical analysis that Dao should be everywhere and every seconds. That is true Dao. Dao is beyond man's intelligence and conflict with intention, so acheiving Dao through "active mindful meditation" is almost impossible.

[thelerner]

I have brought two passages written by two sages TO support my opinion. One sage is zhangziyang, another is laozi. The passages are "Jindan 400 words" and "Qingjing Jing"

And, I gave my logical analysis that Dao should be everywhere and every seconds. That is true Dao. Dao is beyond man's intelligence and conflict with intention, so acheiving Dao through "active mindful meditation" is almost impossible.

Thing is many of us have a basic foundational practice of 'non active mindful meditation'. Emptiness meditation, thoughts come and go, til they settle. Clearing the mind .. just sitting.

[effilang]

I have brought two passages written by two sages TO support my opinion. One sage is zhangziyang, another is laozi. The passages are "Jindan 400 words" and "Qingjing Jing"

And, I gave my logical analysis that Dao should be everywhere and every seconds. That is true Dao. Dao is beyond man's intelligence and conflict with intention, so acheiving Dao through "active mindful meditation" is almost impossible.

 

I cannot recall what those are by name or if i have read them, i'll look it up to try and understand your perspective better.

 

Let me by my reasoning point out the blatant fallacy of your argument.

 

And, I gave my logical analysis that Dao should be everywhere and every seconds. That is true Dao. Dao is

 

Toward the claim that meditation is not the right way, this point doesn't actually oppose the idea's that meditators hold, because in fact, a basis of Alchemical Taoist theory to which most informed meditators are well acquainted with states that, the Tao is everywhere and all the time and that we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. So this is a common ground between practitioners of your method and active meditation methods. In other words, you cannot use that as an argument. It is simply a logical invalidity.

 

Dao is beyond man's intelligence and conflict with intention

I won't be so bold as to reply to this statement, as it would imply that i KNOW what the Tao is. I have had but sniffles of it's intoxicating farts and am a monumental effort away from achieving it, that i may say upon others what IT IS and what it is not with a conviction as confident as yours.

 

I know from experience that anybody who has never had something, but gives their opinion about it like they have achieved it, in reality normally hasn't. As always i could be disastrously wrong, right? After all, you could in fact be an enlightened immortal who just likes to spend Saturday nights on the internet. Everything is possible.

 

How about you, do you accept with everything you know, that you could be completely wrong? Are you capable of accepting that probability for yourself?

 

I have a question for you then, to test your position. If you claim that the Tao is everywhere and all the time, then why is it that "intention", the mind, the will of man. Things that are all by definition, all manifestations of the Tao, are in your exact words in "conflict" with the Tao? Don't you see that as a contradiction?

 

Onward, why if the Dao is not in accord with man's intentions is it that both active meditators and for the lack of a better word "in-active meditators" like yourself both have THE SAME energy centers in the body activated during the transformation of their body, where the activation happens faster with active meditators?

 

And how are you not actively using your mind if you already have an idea you have set into your head that needs to be avoided? Doesn't that already imply that you are actively using your intention to eschew or avoid that which is the opposite of your goal?

 

Do you get what i mean? If you can already identify "active meditation" in your mind and you think it is the wrong way, then your mind is already intending to make sure you are not actively meditating. So whether you intend to or not, by choosing one side of duality over an other, you are forcing your mind to actively exclude one and concentrate on the other.

 

Whichever way you look at it. If you have a "concept" in your mind like "Active" and "Non-Active", then you are already exercising the intention of the mind. It is inescapable. The REAL difference is that, active meditators use more "intention" than "in-active" meditators. Maybe you can't see that, because you are less experienced than I. Maybe it is the other way around. I guess we will never know.

 

...acheiving Dao through "active mindful meditation" is almost impossible.

 

Really? Can you please explain then, how long it takes to achieve the Tao with active meditation and how long with your method? You know, just so that statement produces SOME evidence of practical rationalization, and not simply philosophical claim.

 

What are the physical and energetic manifestations of your method in the body and how do you measure the progress of your cultivation? Further more, if you can't measure or identify the manifestations of your practice within your body, then how can you compare it to other methods in order to have the grounds upon which to claim that active meditation is "almost impossible" to achieve, or that your method is better?

 

What is your basis for practical comparison?

Edited December 31, 2011 by effilang

[Lao Tzu]

Thing is many of us have a basic foundational practice of 'non active mindful meditation'. Emptiness meditation, thoughts come and go, til they settle. Clearing the mind .. just sitting.

But the point is that it is not natural, so basically it is not the best practice way, but you can try some at the beginning.

[konchog uma]

But the point is that it is not natural, so basically it is not the best practice way, but you can try some at the beginning.

 

that the "the" point, thats YOUR point.

 

If sitting in stillness isn't dao, something's wrong with your stillness. When I sit in stillness, its pefectly natural. Nothing against dao about it. So maybe you're just meditating wrong.

[Lao Tzu]

 

Toward the claim that meditation is not the right way, this point doesn't actually oppose the idea's that meditators hold, because in fact, a basis of Alchemical Taoist theory to which most informed meditators are well acquainted with states that, the Tao is everywhere and all the time and that we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. So this is a common ground between practitioners of your method and active meditation methods. In other words, you cannot use that as an argument. It is simply a logical invalidity.

I used this, right because it is a common ground.

Dao is everywhere and every seconds, so such a practice that sometimes sitting somewhere to meditate is not a natural way of Dao.

[effilang]

I used this, right because it is a common ground.

Dao is everywhere and every seconds, so such a practice that sometimes sitting somewhere to meditate is not a natural way of Dao.

 

Actually, no. You cannot use a common ground to point out why active meditation is not good, because i do not share that opinion, obviously.

 

HOWEVER. If the Tao is everywhere, and i agree that it is, then isn't it going to be there where we are going to be sitting to meditate?

 

Why if it is everywhere, does it all of a sudden run away and disappear when we sit down to meditate?

 

Are you implying that the Tao that has no intention prefers your method over others since it is less in active meditators?

 

Edited December 31, 2011 by effilang