Rooting

[Taomeow]

oops...sorry. My line of questioning had started something else again, shamed on me....

 

1. A 300 lb guy has no problem to push anybody away without the push hands practice, is it there...???

 

No, he did have a big problem pushing with my 150 lb teacher, because their respective skills are on about the same level -- and at this level of skill which I (and Mal) are talking about, i.e. top notch taiji of a few decades, weight does not matter, size does not matter, nothing matters but the skill.

To convince me, the 300 lb guy didn't "tell me," he showed me. I.e., after three hours of "pushing against a wall of emptiness," he finally had mercy on me and showed me his root -- with a little hint -- and that's when I sent him flying like a balloon. I weigh 130 lb. Go taiji!!! Of course I could never do that if he didn't show me his root. But only because my skill is nowhere near his level and won't be for a long time. For a moment, he let me experience what it's like to have a higher level of skill, i.e. he showed me the hidden root of a high level player which normally only a higher level player would be able to find. One of the most memorable sensations of my life, this moment of "borrowing" a much higher level skill and producing something not that short of a miracle in the physical world.

 

In taiji, weight doesn't matter against skill. Have you ever heard of "using the opponent's own strength against him?" Why do you think I objected against your "tense the legs muscles" admonitions? Because to a highly skilled opponent, any and all tense muscles scream, not just whisper, where and how to redirect. You don't have to "listen," you can't help hearing the yelling from those tense muscles -- "I'm tense, I'm tense, I'm not sensitive enough because I'm tense, I'm unable to react to a change fast enough because I can't sense it, so please go ahead, just change a bit and my own momentum will topple me! Come on, it's easy, you don't have to do anything, I'll do it all for you!" Against a high level of taiji skill, you tense anything, you fly, it doesn't matter how much you weigh, it doesn't matter how much stronger you are, I'm not using my li, I'm using yours -- that's what taiji is for. You want to use tense muscles and li, do an external MA. Just make sure you never try them on a high-level taiji player and you'll be fine.

[Mal]

Smart phone not as easy to use

aapc I need more practice

Edited September 24, 2011 by Mal Stainkey

[ChiDragon]

Taomeow...

Yes, the weight has nothing to do with the skills. It was just the way you had presented your story. It seems to me that you were assuming I knew not much about Tai Ji. I think we all knew what we were talking about; but we just weren't saying what the others to hear whatever was in our minds. If we have used the common terms and understanding, then we would have no problem understanding each other.

 

Push hands was based on this idiom(translation in thoughts only because the Chinese measuring units are different than the western.):

四兩撥千斤: Using 4 oz. to push a thousand pounds.

 

This is a good indication that the weight has nothing to do with the practice but the skill. What I am tyring to say is that one must have a good rooting foundation to stay in balance in order to use the weight of the opponent to counterbalance him. IMO we knew all this already, it was just we aren't communicating by using the proper terminologies.

 

 

Edited to add:

Do you know you and I are doing push hands right now...??? In a way, we're feeling the Taiji knowledge from each other....

Edited September 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

Taomeow...

Yes, the weight has nothing to do with the skills. It was just the way you had presented your story. It seems to me that you were assuming I knew not much about Tai Ji. I think we all knew what we were talking about; but we just weren't saying what the others to hear whatever was in our minds. If we have used the common terms and understanding, then we would have no problem understanding each other.

 

Push hands was based on this idiom(translation in thoughts only because the Chinese measuring units are different than the western.):

四兩撥千斤: Using 4 oz. to push a thousand pounds.

 

This is a good indication that the weight has nothing to do with the practice but the skill. What I am tyring to say is that one must have a good rooting foundation to stay in balance in order to use the weight of the opponent to counterbalance him. IMO we knew all this already, it was just we aren't communicating by using the proper terminologies.

 

 

Edited to add:

Do you know you and I are doing push hands right now...??? In a way, we're feeling the Taiji knowledge from each other....

 

How about this. In push hands, any tension in the body becomes magnified, because we approach push hands with softness. To yield until ( if you so choose) you can take your paetner's center.

 

Taomeow is right, if you tense your muscles thinking its rooting, you have just shifted your root fom the ground to where ever you have tensed the most.

 

The way ive been taught push hands is to try and avoid giving any reistance anywhere in my body, so my partner doesnt get anything to push against.

 

A while back a new chap came go our class and i was doing push hands with him. He would stop moving after a point in rolling hand free style and i knew he thought he was rpoting, but it would take me only a little bit of leaning in to topple him over. And the part about disappearing, it happens wiht my teacher. We might be doing a simple single hand push and after a while i wont know where he is...because he was actally driving the energy in the opposite direction of the physical movement.

[ChiDragon]

How about this. In push hands, any tension in the body becomes magnified, because we approach push hands with softness. To yield until ( if you so choose) you can take your paetner's center.

 

Taomeow is right, if you tense your muscles thinking its rooting, you have just shifted your root fom the ground to where ever you have tensed the most.

 

The way ive been taught push hands is to try and avoid giving any reistance anywhere in my body, so my partner doesnt get anything to push against.

 

A while back a new chap came go our class and i was doing push hands with him. He would stop moving after a point in rolling hand free style and i knew he thought he was rpoting, but it would take me only a little bit of leaning in to topple him over. And the part about disappearing, it happens wiht my teacher. We might be doing a simple single hand push and after a while i wont know where he is...because he was actally driving the energy in the opposite direction of the physical movement.

 

First of all, I am glad that we do have some high level TaiJi practitioners here to take place in the discussion. BTW I was only establishing the foundation for rooting; but I have never mentioned when should it occur, in what time frame, nor in push hands. Basically, I was saying how to do rooting. However, it is important to have good rooting during a counteraction. For instance, in push hands, it was a common knowledge that we should relax at first. Initially, if you don't move, I don't move; if you do move, then I move first. As soon I felt the Jin in the opponent's hand, at that instant, I would react by Fa Jin on my legs to lock myself onto the ground to keep my centroid dead center with my body. While the opponent was moving, his centroid is off and his rooting was not as firm as mine because his centroid was not dead center with his body.

 

By the definition of FA Jin, spontaneously, the muscles are tighten or contracted. If the muscles were not contracted, then you cannot Fa Jin. The opponent was vulnerable to be thrown off balance because he was not centered with his body. While he was moving, his own weight and center were moving along in the same direction, if I pull him in the same direction, then the resultant force would be the summation of his body weight and my pulling force which will make him move faster to get off balance. Hence, his centroid was much greater off center within the balance limits.

Edited September 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Lucky7Strikes]

Just dropping 2 cents here...

 

IME the key to rooting, as many have already said here, is making sure the spine is erect but naturally supported by the bone structure without muscular contraction all the way down to the feet.

 

Most people have a curved spine due to too much sitting slouching. This closes the heart area and the channels running from the spine to the back of the head because that part caves in when you slouch. Then your organs become contracted from the forward weight of the skull also, which puts pressure on not only your organs but the muscles surrounding it as well. The shoulder muscles will get bunched up as your arms are going to hang forwards. Your hips will also jut outwards making energetic pathways between the hips, the spine, and the skull all the more difficult to connect.

 

So straightening the spine, especially the upper portion to nicely weigh down on the mingmen, which closes the hip joints and the buttocks together and lets the weight from the skull directly root down to the ground with minimal muscle contractions or bunching up.

 

When you walk you should feel light and connected to the ground.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Empty Cloud]

This is a marvelous discussion. Thank you all for your insightful responses... Bums.

[Gerard]

[joeblast]

...cross posting from a rooting discussion at the ymaa board, here's a bit on grounding vs rooting, an amalgam as explained by a couple different folks I've trained with - I took a perhaps overanalytical anatomical approach this is mostly in reference to ZZ, differentiating between grounding and rooting.

 

 

 

a lot of it had to do with the psoas and the positioning of the hips - you're familiar with the wing chun horse stance, that one purposefully has a tight...tight isnt really the right word...the position of everything simply induces a bit of tension on the psoas, a cousin of full lotus, from a certain point of view. any time you root are are quasi locking yourself to the ground, and probably the closest & most significant muscle aside from the long femoral ones with regard to the "hinge-point" is the psoas, so that bit of tension even if induced from lengthening/twisting of the psoas helps "seat the hinge" whereby you may efficiently transfer force - the application utilizes the kidney sinew channel more.

[/img]

 

 

I like this cross section - you can see just how central the psoas is

 

 

and the point of attachment on the femur for the psoas

 

so by changing the angle of the pelvis as a whole, a lot of what you're doing is either stabilizing or relaxing the psoas muscle - the tenderloin, the kua, if you were to have to point to a single representative structure.

 

stand there in the wing chun horse stance, then run your finger along the inguinal crease and you should be able to feel the psoas there, when tense you should be able to feel the muscle a bit flexed.

 

now change the angle of your pelvis so that the lumbosacral junction is nice and flat (i.e. parallel to the ground) - when balanced properly you are able to relax the psoas completely! mess around with feeling your psoas flex & relax with your hand on the inguinal crease and you'll get a sense of...like standing a pencil up in its eraser, when everything is properly positioned over center then there is much less need to stabilize one direction or another.

 

with relaxation comes more qi flow - which is HUGE especially when speaking of such an energetically significant one such as the psoas muscle - with more flow, one is able to be better grounded - thus the relaxed method equates to a more "grounding" focus and the "ready-set" method of a stance like the wc horse has much more of a rooting focus. simply by changing the angle of the pelvis a bit changes the energetic focus of the stance. you can think of the relaxed method, not utilizing extras like the kd sinew channel quite so much, as utilizing the kd primary more - especially since more relaxation, more flow, the psoas flows right along with the kd channel.

[Taomeow]

Thanks for the illustrations, Joeblast. This explains why, e.g., Moshe Feldenkrais who was a bit of a womanizer was always looking for a woman with "dimples in her cheeks," a telltale sign that she is capable of truly enjoying sex -- and he didn't mean the facial cheeks.

 

Yesterday my taiji teacher spent some time fine-tuning the Xie Xing (Diagonal Posture) of our Chen and its applications, and it dawned on me that the punch you throw out of this position has peng by virtue of the stance resting on an internal spiral -- you release it suddenly and that's the jin you transmit to your arm and fist, and there's absolutely no tensing of any muscles in the punch, none whatsoever. The arm isn't even there except for the ride. ("There's no arms in taiji" -- how true!) This is so not obvious until you start feeling the inner spirals. The psoa are not diagonal but the fascia are! That's where peng comes from. Tense muslces come complete with shortened, thickened fascia that start working like an inner straightjacket instead of an inner network of flexible motion transmission they are supposed to be. This motion does transmit in spiraling, diagonal patterns when tensions have been removed and structures that had been pulled out of alignment by tight fascia released. Chen is so very natural for the body that has been rid of an "inner straightjacket," it isn't even funny. Once you start getting it, you can't believe you didn't get it automatically. Feels like something your body would know ziran if it wasn't for all the misuse of many years and all the tensions and compromised functions and structures that have resulted.

[LBDaoist]

To practice being rooted energetically, I've read and heard that one must practice visualizing one's energy spreading through ones feet like roots into the ground. But what if I'm on a second, third or 83rd floor? What would I be rooting or rooted into? Would you suggest I visualize my energy reaching all the way down into the earth or vice versa?

 

I've found it best to exchange the energy both ways. Draw energy up from the ground on the inhale and ground it down on the exhale.

[mYTHmAKER]

To practice being rooted energetically, I've read and heard that one must practice visualizing one's energy spreading through ones feet like roots into the ground. But what if I'm on a second, third or 83rd floor? What would I be rooting or rooted into? Would you suggest I visualize my energy reaching all the way down into the earth or vice versa?

 

I feel and imagine rooting to whatever I am standing on.

Whatever I am standing on is my ground.

[mYTHmAKER]

Yesterday my taiji teacher spent some time fine-tuning the Xie Xing (Diagonal Posture) of our Chen and its applications, and it dawned on me that the punch you throw out of this position has peng by virtue of the stance resting on an internal spiral -- you release it suddenly and that's the jin you transmit to your arm and fist, and there's absolutely no tensing of any muscles in the punch, none whatsoever. The arm isn't even there except for the ride. ("There's no arms in taiji" -- how true!) This is so not obvious until you start feeling the inner spirals. The psoa are not diagonal but the fascia are! That's where peng comes from. Tense muslces come complete with shortened, thickened fascia that start working like an inner straightjacket instead of an inner network of flexible motion transmission they are supposed to be. This motion does transmit in spiraling, diagonal patterns when tensions have been removed and structures that had been pulled out of alignment by tight fascia released. Chen is so very natural for the body that has been rid of an "inner straightjacket," it isn't even funny. Once you start getting it, you can't believe you didn't get it automatically. Feels like something your body would know ziran if it wasn't for all the misuse of many years and all the tensions and compromised functions and structures that have resulted.

 

Working on it :)

[Dainin]

Regarding the "going barefoot" discussion a few pages back, this book may be of interest:

 

Earthing: The Most Important Health Discovery Ever?

 

The author does sell a product line (grounding rods, mattress pads, etc.), so there is an element of hype, and the research isn't gold standard, but the general concept sounds intriguing.

[Trunk]

[Cameron]

It's interesting to really feel and differentiate the different types of strength. For the past couple years I focused mostly on the "external" with RKC training. You get very strong doing all over compound movements like swings, snatches, turkish get ups etc to me this type of strength still definetly has it's place.

 

But being here in China as well as reading some of these threads has really motivated me to devote the next year to internal training. I have some backround in it with 3 years of Aikido.

 

It was suggested to me by my American teacher to learn Bagua but my Chinese teacher has said better focus on Xingyi first.

 

Maybe the combination of me losing the Bagua book he gave me combined with his vibing me out lol.

 

In any case I will be doing my Santi Xingyi stance and 5 element forms for awhile probably. Get rooted

[mYTHmAKER]

But being here in China as well as reading some of these threads has really motivated me to devote the next year to internal training. I have some backround in it with 3 years of Aikido.

 

It was suggested to me by my American teacher to learn Bagua but my Chinese teacher has said better focus on Xingyi first.

In any case I will be doing my Santi Xingyi stance and 5 element forms for awhile probably. Get rooted

 

Taiji, Bagua and xingi all work well with each other.

[joeblast]

true, but depending on the person a certain approach at a certain time will yield more results

[mYTHmAKER]

true, but depending on the person a certain approach at a certain time will yield more results

 

Yes it can be a mix and match - whatever is appropriate at the time.

[Cameron]

That's how it is taught at my school in Beijing. The Master is profficient in all 3(actually he has his own style of them apparently and sort of fuses them together) But the teacher(s)naturally let you decide which of them to focus on with some suggestions.

 

Now that I have decided on Xingyi I suspect I will focus on that mostly for thenext 6 months while occasionally trying out Tai Chi or Bagua.

 

Out of curiosity how many of you have learned all 3? Or do you mostly focus on Tai Chi?

[Taomeow]

That's how it is taught at my school in Beijing. The Master is profficient in all 3(actually he has his own style of them apparently and sort of fuses them together) But the teacher(s)naturally let you decide which of them to focus on with some suggestions.

 

Now that I have decided on Xingyi I suspect I will focus on that mostly for thenext 6 months while occasionally trying out Tai Chi or Bagua.

 

Out of curiosity how many of you have learned all 3? Or do you mostly focus on Tai Chi?

 

I just had this discussion the other day with a friend with whom I've teamed up to do some extra taiji together (she's a certified instructor, but we're gonna just get together to practice, no lessons involved.) She has bagua and all major styles of taiji and several forms with assorted weapons, and for Chen all of the substyles except Xinjia Erlu (a hellish form, really), and she was agonizing over having neither the time nor the motivation to study that, the only one that seems to be missing from her repertoire. I, in the meantime, am bent on doing one and only one form (well, two, actually, but the second one I just had to learn because it was created by my teacher and he was trying it out for the first time with our group, so, er, I didn't volunteer to learn that, it just happened. ). My inspiration is some top masters I've encountered who have only one form and kick multiple-arts-collectors' ass. They happen to not believe in multitasking. A good classic form is inexhaustible, and I decided to invest into mastering just one to as close to perfection as it will take me someday many moons from now as possible. Anything else I do that is not serving this goal would slow down my movement toward this goal IMO. But that's just one opinion...

[Cameron]

Yes, the other dimension to this is developing a realationship with an authentic Master. Your teacher wanted you to try some new stuff so you went

 

I suspect about 99% of the training at my level will be about just showing up and practicing what I am told. Just getting a good, solid level of any of the big 3 internal styles over this next year would be time well spent for me.

[gendao]

Has anyone ever pushed or learned how to root from Doc FaiWong?

Fong Ha can also definitely root. However, it's an ability that still defies all his own philosophical and technical attempts to explain how to most students..

[LBDaoist]

I, in the meantime, am bent on doing one and only one form (well, two, actually, but the second one I just had to learn because it was created by my teacher and he was trying it out for the first time with our group, so, er, I didn't volunteer to learn that, it just happened. ). My inspiration is some top masters I've encountered who have only one form and kick multiple-arts-collectors' ass. They happen to not believe in multitasking. A good classic form is inexhaustible, and I decided to invest into mastering just one to as close to perfection as it will take me someday many moons from now as possible. Anything else I do that is not serving this goal would slow down my movement toward this goal IMO. But that's just one opinion...

 

To reenforce your inclination, if the form itself has been developed well, you might only need one form. We have a handful of tai chi forms, but Sifu constantly emphasizes that if a person were only to ever practice the first form, they would be able to gain the health benefits and eventually open up all of the primary channels. Sifu has proven to be very practical like that. He has developed his art to be useful from day one.

 

On the other hand, when you get into the martial side of things, eventually forms get in the way. The form exists as a convenient way to string together a bunch of movements. The form exists to make the movements easy to remember and to practice. The down side of practicing forms exclusively comes when training meets reality. Combat has little to do with forms. Although the forms can provide the foundation, they are not the be all and end all.

 

If I were to dissuade you from focusing too fully on one form, I would do so by mentioning the following. During any sort of physical practice, the body hits natural road blocks. It falls into ruts as the muscle memory forms familiar grooves. Often times it can be very beneficial, and I might even go so far as to say.. necessary, to change it up. I would liken it to reading the Tao Te Ching. If I put the book down for a few months, or even a few years, and then pick it back up again.. I get something different from it. Even reading the same passage a couple of weeks apart can provide different insights. Form training can be much the same way. Sometimes it can be best to step away from a particular form and focus on something else, and then come back to it.

 

FWIW - I have a couple of forms that I like more than others. I have some weapons like I like more than others, and palms that I like more than others. That seems only natural that we will take to certain motions or sequences more easily than others.

[Taomeow]

 

On the other hand, when you get into the martial side of things, eventually forms get in the way. The form exists as a convenient way to string together a bunch of movements. The form exists to make the movements easy to remember and to practice. The down side of practicing forms exclusively comes when training meets reality. Combat has little to do with forms. Although the forms can provide the foundation, they are not the be all and end all.

 

My experience with form/fighting is radically different. I think your opinion may derive from the fact that there's teachers out there (the majority?..) who teach the form without its martial applications. Not the case with my teacher. Every single move in the form is always taught in its combat applications, you do a "for health" meditative form and you do the "for to kill" weaponized version and you also do both simultaneously (sic!) -- to quote BKF, "it's all one snake." Of course you need to practice with partners to learn all the hands-on applications of the form. Taiji without push-hands is very superficial and you stop growing very early in the game -- but push-hands without a very well-internalized form is a joke.

 

Of course push-hands is not just fighting. It's also communication, sensitivity training, perceptions honing, all the good things. I spent much of my childhood getting into fights, but the last time I had to throw a punch and bloody someone's nose was when I was 13. Hopefully I won't have to get into "real combat situations" anytime soon, and if I did, I'd much rather back up my taiji with a gun. However, sensitivity, perceptions, communication, "getting" other people, reading the mind from the body language -- these skills come in handy every day. They are not hypothetical/theoretical benefits of taiji sparring. They are current. So, you have to have the form in order to spar (if you don't, anyone who does will be bored pushing hands with you within seconds), and you have to spar in order to have all kinds of perceptions fine-tuned, and these will feed back into the form, by the way... all one snake.