Heartmind

[deci belle]

SereneBlue said "I've experienced this only once in my lifetime. At night. My breathing shut down completely and I mean completely. Unfortunately instead of simply watching quietly it made me very scared that I was dying."

 

Awww… poor you!❤

 

That's what I call womb breathing. More often than not, I awaken to that state. It goes deeper, in terms of selfless awareness sometimes. Or other times, there are movements of energy inside the body that one directs in an intuitive fashion vaguely referred to in the alchemical manuals.

 

I'm not aware of the technical usage of the term, heartmind. Usually it is some new-age emotional-consciousness loving-compassion sort of application, which, to me, is not the heartmind able to kill buddhas.

 

The Art of War states that a skilled general has to have the heart to take hearts. I call this ruthless compassion, or selfless objectivity— which is the boon of selfless realization and subsequent repeated harmonization of one's light within the context of actual everyday ordinary situations.

 

My studies have not countered the term "heartmind" as such, but as a powerful sounding referent, I suspect that in terms of the ultimate sense, it does not refer to a thing with a physical location. It is symbolic of an essential mystery of selfless non-origination outside of doctrine.

 

dawel said "In the Book of poetry, it said XIN was the center of being." This sounds really good. In one of the Thomas Cleary books of the school of Complete Reality taoism, there is a short passage which may have relevance:

 

"The reality whereby origin and completion are affected is the true intent of the human body, which has no location. Because it contains the impulse of life within it, it is called the center." This is a taoist description on par with Chan buddhist teaching which shares much of its core practice emphasis with the Northern School (Serene Branch) of Complete Reality.

 

Is the heartmind term more closely derivative of the Indian buddhist tradition?— which probably has a plethora of interpretive layers…❤

 

(ed: finished quotation with " ").

[Informer]

I think to describe it in regards to chakra correlation it would be using the 3rd eye and equally the Heart for decisions and choices?

 

Sort of like giving the issue to something greater that the individually percieved self.

 

To the elements of love and mind, unbound in purity and balanced in perfect harmony. A synergy is formed to create an entirely new perspective on all matters.

 

Seeing a bigger picture, and using the built-in instincts that exist within each and everyone of us.

 

It is encoded in our DNA, in all of us!

[thuscomeone]

I think heartmind is just you as you are as a human being. Your five skandhas functioning and happening without all the dust (concepts) to obscure this simple happening. But that's just a guess.

[deci belle]

I think to describe it in regards to chakra correlation it would be using the 3rd eye and equally the Heart for decisions and choices?

 

Sort of like giving the issue to something greater that the individually percieved self.

 

To the elements of love and mind, unbound in purity and balanced in perfect harmony. A synergy is formed to create an entirely new perspective on all matters.

 

Seeing a bigger picture, and using the built-in instincts that exist within each and everyone of us.

 

It is encoded in our DNA, in all of us!

haha!!❤❤❤

 

thuscomeone said "Posted Today, 10:38 PM

I think heartmind is just you as you are as a human being. Your five skandhas functioning and happening without all the dust (concepts) to obscure this simple happening. But that's just a guess."

 

Surely. The effective function of balance and harmony, balanced before response and harmonized within events.

[Informer]

I think heartmind is just you as you are as a human being. Your five skandhas functioning and happening without all the dust (concepts) to obscure this simple happening. But that's just a guess.

 

[dawei]

I think the problem with chinese is the ill defined centers, such as LDT, MDT, UDT.

 

It's my opinion that describing it with more variables initially defined most beneficial. But that is a personal perspective.

 

I do have a question in these regards, which is how is the solar plexus (fire) differentiated from Heart in regards to gateway locations?

Good point.

Both the Heart (4th) and Solar plexus (3rd chakra) is associated to the MDT; In Medical Qigong sometimes called the Yellow Court (the place of unprocessed emotions).

 

The solar plexus energetic element is fire. It includes the adrenals, pancreas, spleen and liver. When it opens you will feel rage, anger, fear, etc. This is the external world.

 

The heart relates to wind. It includes lungs and thymus. When open there is pain on the chest. This is the internal world.

 

If you refer to the center as the MDT, then the heart is primary: then lungs and then thymus. In this model, the heart is associated to fire (arising from the kidneys).

 

So, the Chakras (Indian) and the Dan Tian (Chinese) do not completely reconcile 100% at times; just as TCM and Medical Qigong do not. Just need to know the discrepancies and how to resolve them.

[Informer]

Good point.

Both the Heart (4th) and Solar plexus (3rd chakra) is associated to the MDT; In Medical Qigong sometimes called the Yellow Court (the place of unprocessed emotions).

 

The solar plexus energetic element is fire. It includes the adrenals, pancreas, spleen and liver. When it opens you will feel rage, anger, fear, etc. This is the external world.

 

The heart relates to wind. It includes lungs and thymus. When open there is pain on the chest. This is the internal world.

 

If you refer to the center as the MDT, then the heart is primary: then lungs and then thymus. In this model, the heart is associated to fire (arising from the kidneys).

 

So, the Chakras (Indian) and the Dan Tian (Chinese) do not completely reconcile 100% at times; just as TCM and Medical Qigong do not. Just need to know the discrepancies and how to resolve them.

 

Well, I see it as heart = love once purified.

 

Wind = throat, and generally defined with breathing in chineese I think.

 

Notice how you control breath to circulate and sink fire to LDT

[dawei]

Well, I see it as heart = love once purified.

 

Wind = throat, and generally defined with breathing in chineese I think.

 

Notice how you control breath to circulate and sink fire to LDT

The Throat is the 5th chakra associated to vibrational sound... but it does supply energy to the lungs. Breathing is associated to the lungs but one can breath into any of the dan tians; in fact, through any part of the body.

[Informer]

The Throat is the 5th chakra associated to vibrational sound... but it does supply energy to the lungs. Breathing is associated to the lungs but one can breath into any of the dan tians; in fact, through any part of the body.

 

I see the root of the sound, as far as voice is concerned, is breath (wind) being utilized.

 

Like humming chanting and singing.

[dawei]

I see the root of the sound is breath (wind) being utilized.

 

Like humming chanting and singing.

good point. It is better to see the interconnection then just the separation. The sound can have pitch or even attach a color or other association, and travel throughout the organ system as we want. It is marvelous in the end. This ties back to the original post point I wanted to make; it connects all things; the XIN; center of being.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Sleep paralysis or something?

 

In my experience of (what I think) Lucky experienced: I could breathe if I wanted to. It was a deep state of mental rest (so no monkey mind), yet at the same time, a sudden burst of brightness and clarity of awareness. I could feel the respiration surging throughout my entire body...the energy of the body functioning in a different way from ordinary breathing. After some time, thoughts would begin to arise (whoa I really don't have to breathe?!?) and then shortly after breathing would resume, and once again it'd be challenging to hold my breath for a length of time. In this state, it was effortless and lasted a minute or two.

Yes, it was a combination of a deep peaceful rest combined with incredible sense of being awake. I've never felt more awake in my life, and my heart center was beating powerfully for the two weeks when the bliss was intense. It was as if my body shifted from brain-functioning mode to hear centered body and I could literally begin to sense my brain melting. Then I lost sense of my body and each step I took I felt I was not moving as a body, but a totality.

[C T]

I have trouble buying into what I consider Buddhist dogma when it comes to things like what is referred to above. Once the body and brain are gone, does the individual continue to exist? I know the TIbetan tradition (and others) believe so.

Nice 02 cents, Steve

 

Excellent thoughts indeed. Thanks for sharing!

 

 

 

 

Note: The Buddhist tradition does not promote the notion that a (same) soul transmigrates from one body to the next. Just wanted to reiterate what other Buddhists here accept as a doctrinal understanding.

Edited July 23, 2011 by CowTao

[steve]

 

 

Note: The Buddhist tradition does not promote the notion that a (same) soul that transmigrate from one body to the next. Just wanted to reiterate what other Buddhists here accept as a doctrinal understanding.

Thanks for the clarification, perhaps it would be more accurate to say that individuals mistakenly believe this then.

I'm currently reading Mind Beyond Death by Dzogchen Ponlop. In this, and in other readings and listenings about what transpires after death, there appears to be a distinct implication of a continuity of "experiencer" going through the bardos after death and then somehow "forced" to reincarnate for another life. An implication that if "I" do not become fully realized, "I" will have to repeat this over and over until such time as I am fully realized.

 

There is reference to preparing for these bardos through multiple practices. There is mention that for fully realized people, the bardos after death do not exist yet for those who are not, there are three bardos after death. What is it that experiences these bardos and is subject to rebirth? It feels very much like a threat, a negative motivation to practice the Buddhist rituals in order to prevent the pain and suffering of rebirth. This is what I do not buy into... We die, the experiencer is no longer, we are pure heartmind. Another organic being arises and is imbued with the essence of heartmind and so on... I don't accept the continuity other than to say we are all "me", we are all the "experience" of heartmind constrained by our organic self during life and free of all that dust and distraction during death.

[C T]

Thanks for the clarification, perhaps it would be more accurate to say that individuals mistakenly believe this then.

I'm currently reading Mind Beyond Death by Dzogchen Ponlop. In this, and in other readings and listenings about what transpires after death, there appears to be a distinct implication of a continuity of "experiencer" going through the bardos after death and then somehow "forced" to reincarnate for another life. An implication that if "I" do not become fully realized, "I" will have to repeat this over and over until such time as I am fully realized.

 

There is reference to preparing for these bardos through multiple practices. There is mention that for fully realized people, the bardos after death do not exist yet for those who are not, there are three bardos after death. What is it that experiences these bardos and is subject to rebirth? It feels very much like a threat, a negative motivation to practice the Buddhist rituals in order to prevent the pain and suffering of rebirth. This is what I do not buy into... We die, the experiencer is no longer, we are pure heartmind. Another organic being arises and is imbued with the essence of heartmind and so on... I don't accept the continuity other than to say we are all "me", we are all the "experience" of heartmind constrained by our organic self during life and free of all that dust and distraction during death.

Indeed its a difficult subject to wrap one's thoughts around. So many different levels need to be cleared before a semblance of understanding what actually transmigrates post death can be had.

 

According to buddhist scriptural allusion, its the subtlest consciousness that leaves imprints behind, and if these imprints are not completely purified, they can be left as a sort of legacy in the world. This works in the positive and negative sense. Of those people who have done great works for mankind, long after they have passed, we still speak of them with fond respect and remember their deeds with admiration and we in turn become motivated to pursue those qualities we have learned to admire in these individuals. Conversely, we also come across and find hard to discount deeds of great disgust, heinous crimes by individuals or groups that has stamped the history of mankind, and can never be erased. This is an example of how imprints get left behind. In this sense, the person dies, but the deeds dont. So no matter how insignificant an individual is, his or thoughts/actions matter, whether they affect one other or en masse is not the point. The point is to be accountable for what we put forth while alive. Children are the legacies of what sort of consciousness we create, and this is how consciousness perpetuates. Hence the urgency within Buddhistic circles to encourage followers to purify their minds. Purified minds brings forth purified thoughts, and so on.

 

If i can succeed in the quest to clear all my baggage before i die, i can imagine what sort of peaceful environment i can leave for those around me. Should i manage to set an example of how far my cultivation has taken me, then my family and close friends might become encouraged, and maybe do something good in their lives too, and in turn, they pass on the legacy etc. So in a sense, bodhisattvas are very responsible individuals who remain always vigilant of their thoughts and deeds. Hence Mindfulness plays such an integral role in its path to cultivation.

 

As for the different realms, one could say they are metaphorical, yet not completely, because we can distinguish different levels of behavior and thought patterns among humans. All kinds of different nuances to the human condition can be evidenced thru observing how people behave... i think we are clear on this. So those who behave in animalistic ways leave behind animalistic seeds for others to pick up, and those who behave in sagely ways leave behind sagely seeds for others.

 

As for being reborn as an animal or a ghost and all that, lets not ruin our fragile minds with such speculations, eh?

[steve]

Indeed its a difficult subject to wrap one's thoughts around. So many different levels need to be cleared before a semblance of understanding what actually transmigrates post death can be had.

 

According to buddhist scriptural allusion, its the subtlest consciousness that leaves imprints behind, and if these imprints are not completely purified, they can be left as a sort of legacy in the world. This works in the positive and negative sense. Of those people who have done great works for mankind, long after they have passed, we still speak of them with fond respect and remember their deeds with admiration and we in turn become motivated to pursue those qualities we have learned to admire in these individuals. Conversely, we also come across and find hard to discount deeds of great disgust, heinous crimes by individuals or groups that has stamped the history of mankind, and can never be erased. This is an example of how imprints get left behind. In this sense, the person dies, but the deeds dont. So no matter how insignificant an individual is, his or thoughts/actions matter, whether they affect one other or en masse is not the point. The point is to be accountable for what we put forth while alive. Children are the legacies of what sort of consciousness we create, and this is how consciousness perpetuates. Hence the urgency within Buddhistic circles to encourage followers to purify their minds. Purified minds brings forth purified thoughts, and so on.

 

If i can succeed in the quest to clear all my baggage before i die, i can imagine what sort of peaceful environment i can leave for those around me. Should i manage to set an example of how far my cultivation has taken me, then my family and close friends might become encouraged, and maybe do something good in their lives too, and in turn, they pass on the legacy etc. So in a sense, bodhisattvas are very responsible individuals who remain always vigilant of their thoughts and deeds. Hence Mindfulness plays such an integral role in its path to cultivation.

 

As for the different realms, one could say they are metaphorical, yet not completely, because we can distinguish different levels of behavior and thought patterns among humans. All kinds of different nuances to the human condition can be evidenced thru observing how people behave... i think we are clear on this. So those who behave in animalistic ways leave behind animalistic seeds for others to pick up, and those who behave in sagely ways leave behind sagely seeds for others.

 

As for being reborn as an animal or a ghost and all that, lets not ruin our fragile minds with such speculations, eh?

Good stuff - we are in 100% agreement.

There are many who grasp at the words more literally and turn it into dogma.

You clearly are doing the work to see the truth behind the words in your daily experience.

Godspeed!

[Oolong Rabbit]

From a physiological perspective, modern science has proven that both the heart and solar plexus have neurons similar to the brain. There are even many accounts of heart transplant recipients assuming traits that were later proven to be those of the donor i.e. non-artistic people becoming artists etc... I read quite a bit about it when my father had a valve replaced, and found it fascinating.

 

"Most people DO NOT think that it is the heart which is the major source of thinking. There are over 40,000 neurons in the heart and unlike neurons in the brain, the 40,000 neurons communicate with each other simultaneously. It is the heart that initiate signals to the brain which reach the amygdala and thalamus. Only then the two-way communications occur between both.

 

Since the heart also does the thinking, the heart also is the source of Knowledge. In fact, the heart is the source of a better knowledge which is called the Spiritual Knowledge. The foundation of this Spiritual Knowledge is given once we are born. This is why, it is human nature to worship God or Gods. Should the 40,000 neurons in the heart communicate well with each other, the heart generates a special kind of thinking called Intuition. This is why sometimes a man may have the sense of things might happen before they happen and before witnessed by the brain."

 

http://subjected2subjectivity.blogspot.com/2007/06/thinking-heart.html

[Vmarco]

[deci belle]

[steve]

From a physiological perspective, modern science has proven that both the heart and solar plexus have neurons similar to the brain. There are even many accounts of heart transplant recipients assuming traits that were later proven to be those of the donor i.e. non-artistic people becoming artists etc... I read quite a bit about it when my father had a valve replaced, and found it fascinating.

 

"Most people DO NOT think that it is the heart which is the major source of thinking. There are over 40,000 neurons in the heart and unlike neurons in the brain, the 40,000 neurons communicate with each other simultaneously. It is the heart that initiate signals to the brain which reach the amygdala and thalamus. Only then the two-way communications occur between both.

 

Since the heart also does the thinking, the heart also is the source of Knowledge. In fact, the heart is the source of a better knowledge which is called the Spiritual Knowledge. The foundation of this Spiritual Knowledge is given once we are born. This is why, it is human nature to worship God or Gods. Should the 40,000 neurons in the heart communicate well with each other, the heart generates a special kind of thinking called Intuition. This is why sometimes a man may have the sense of things might happen before they happen and before witnessed by the brain."

 

http://subjected2subjectivity.blogspot.com/2007/06/thinking-heart.html

WIth all due respect to the author of this quote, there are 100 billion neurons in the brain (that is one hundred thousand million, just to appreciate scale) and 1 billion neurons in the spinal cord. To think that 40,00 neurons in the heart are the source of significant intuition or thinking is a fantasy and simply an effort to use anatomical data to validate spiritual concepts. The 40,000 neurons in the heart are primarily responsible for regulating and causing contraction of the heart muscle in an organized and stable fashion. This doesn't mean that heart-mind is not a valid concept, it is beyond concept, it is the nature of being, I just don't think that using "pseudo-science" to validate the concept of heart-mind is a useful approach.

 

The neurons in a heart are not connected to anything in the recipient after a heart transplant. The continue to beat the heart as they are designed like little atomic clocks, click, click, click, but there is no neurological communication to the rest of the body.

 

Heart-mind goes beyond understanding. If one empties the mind of all thought and concept, all choice, desire and aversion, heart-mind remains. It is ineffable - cannot be understood through thought because it is beyond thought. It is what is pointed to by Krishnamurti when he asks us to investigate the possibility of whether the mind can go beyond it's contents. It is like asking a tooth to bite itself. Thought arises within it but cannot "know" it. But it's always there.

[Aaron]

Hello VMarco,

 

I wanted to address some of the statements you made that I believe are untrue.

 

First you state that they found no evidence of cancer in the Ancient mummies of Egypt, and although this may be true, I haven't checked, I do know that the ancient Egyptians mentioned cancer and described different types of tumors as far back as 1500 BC, so there was obviously cancer in that time, just perhaps not as prevalent as today.

 

The Greeks also mentioned Cancer and that's actually where the name for the disease comes from. They associated it with a crab, I'm not sure why, but it was also present in the Ancient Greek society, and seen as an illness.

 

Associating Cancer with Abrahamic religions is, in my opinion, somewhat disparaging and grossly inaccurate. To my knowledge there has never been any correlation that cancer is dependent on someone's belief system, but rather it is dependent on numerous factors, including environmental conditions, genetics, and stress. Now there may be certain types of cancer are more prevalent in the Jewish and Middle Eastern communities, but that doesn't mean that it is caused by their belief system.

 

Third, I think you have a good working idea of heartmind, but perhaps you're leaving out some core elements of it.

 

The heartmind is actually the state of buddha nature. Since we all have a buddha nature, we all have a heartmind, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Taoist, and Hindu. Heartmind is the natural state of being that exists within us. Achieving an awareness of heartmind requires that one understand that one's concept of self derives from their body. In other words the body gives birth to experience, experience gives birth to awareness, awareness gives birth to feeling, and feeling gives birth to thought.

 

In order for one to return to heartmind, our original nature, they must first become aware of their thoughts, and then that their thoughts are derives from their feelings, or emotional attachments, and that those emotional attachments are derived from the perception of the world, and that perception is derived from their experiences with the world, which is ultimately originated from their body. Once one can see this then they can look beyond body and begin to understand the formless nature of heartmind, which is not the absence of feelings or experience, but rather a state that allows one to see through the true nature of all the aforementioned. We begin to see that we have begun from emptiness and can appeal to emptiness. In that emptiness the higher virtues can arise, compassion being the primary and most talked about (and in the restraining concepts of intellectualism, perhaps the most important.)

 

I would also pose the idea that this concept is not exclusive to Buddhist thought but is also found in Christian Mysticism, Sufism, and Taoism. What Buddhism did, was make it a mainstream concept, rather than a concept understood by only a few.

 

Anyways, I would be reticent to make comments regarding the ill effects of a specific religion without first examining the ill effects that can be caused by one's own beliefs or religion. In the end if one clings to Buddhism, for instance, one can never actually achieve heartmind, because heartmind does not exist within Buddhism.

 

Aaron

[Vmarco]

[C T]

 

The heartmind is actually the state of buddha nature. Since we all have a buddha nature, we all have a heartmind, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Taoist, and Hindu. Heartmind is the natural state of being that exists within us. Achieving an awareness of heartmind requires that one understand that one's concept of self derives from their body. In other words the body gives birth to experience, experience gives birth to awareness, awareness gives birth to feeling, and feeling gives birth to thought.

 

In order for one to return to heartmind, our original nature, they must first become aware of their thoughts, and then that their thoughts are derives from their feelings, or emotional attachments, and that those emotional attachments are derived from the perception of the world, and that perception is derived from their experiences with the world, which is ultimately originated from their body. Once one can see this then they can look beyond body and begin to understand the formless nature of heartmind, which is not the absence of feelings or experience, but rather a state that allows one to see through the true nature of all the aforementioned. We begin to see that we have begun from emptiness and can appeal to emptiness. In that emptiness the higher virtues can arise, compassion being the primary and most talked about (and in the restraining concepts of intellectualism, perhaps the most important.)

 

I would also pose the idea that this concept is not exclusive to Buddhist thought but is also found in Christian Mysticism, Sufism, and Taoism. What Buddhism did, was make it a mainstream concept, rather than a concept understood by only a few.

 

Anyways, I would be reticent to make comments regarding the ill effects of a specific religion without first examining the ill effects that can be caused by one's own beliefs or religion. In the end if one clings to Buddhism, for instance, one can never actually achieve heartmind, because heartmind does not exist within Buddhism.

 

Aaron

Other than that part about cancer, of which i have not aaa clue as to its origins, thus have no wish to speculate, i'd say this is a very good, insightful post. So thanks for adding some spice to the topic Twinner!

 

I especially liked the last couple of paragraphs. Well said.

 

In my experience, its as if there are two worlds, both discernible, both useful... one that arises thru contact (of the gross senses) and another, subtler one, which can be discerned thru coursing in sheer awareness, where all gross contacts subside. In this second world, nothing moves. Just awareness being aware, of both the world, and of the one who is aware -

 

Within, so without.

 

In this second world there are no cause, no effect, no karma, no birth, no death, no non-cause, and no non-effect, in fact, its an existence within an existence, but just no graspable thing present. Once in a while, i get to extract some of this no thing-ness and spread it out among this mundane existence, making it a tad lighter.... One of these days, when these two worlds become closer to merging, i hope to be able to catch flying bullets like Neo.... ( half kidding... )

Edited July 23, 2011 by CowTao

[Oolong Rabbit]

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

One of these days, when these two worlds become closer to merging, i hope to be able to catch flying bullets like Neo.... ( half kidding... )

 

You shouldn't be kidding at all. If you viewed the first two Matrix films, and discard all the shoot-em up stuff, you would be closer to realizing Heart-mind than any religion on earth.

 

The Brother directors of The Matrix were said to have used Walter Russell's book 'Secret of Light' (which one could find free on the web). If you overlook the Christian predispositions, the book is quite accurate regarding the nature of light,....both divided and undivided,...and how Nero did what he did.

 

V