Heartmind

[Vajrahridaya]

Because I believe that there is a body, I become aware of a body?

 

I am actually directly experiencing the body right now, free of conditions. I assure you, the body of Vmarco, as the body of Scotty, that the body exists!

 

Yes, it does exist, just relatively so, not ultimately.

[Aetherous]

Yes, it does exist, just relatively so, not ultimately.

 

In total agreement with this. And I don't know a single person who wouldn't be!

[Vajrahridaya]

In total agreement with this. And I don't know a single person who wouldn't be!

 

Yes, I find that most people can agree with this.

 

Letting this insight enhance ones direct experience of the world is another story though. One I'm still working out myself.

[Seth Ananda]

 

 

Ken Wilber had an interesting observations about ego and today's therapeutics:

 

The conspiracy of mediocrity is basically the conspiracy to express your own ego instead of transcending it or letting go of it. The idea has become "if I can really emote and express my self-contriction with sincerity, I'm somehow spiritual". Actually, people who are involved in this boomeritis even deny the importance of Enlightenment or Awakening, because that's saying some states are higher than others - and we shouldn't be so judgemental. But guess what? Some states are higher. And so the entire raison d'etre gets tossed out because it offends the pluralistist ego.

 

 

This conspiracy of mediocrity is very unfortunate. The great promise of the human potential movement was very straightforward - there are higher human potentials. Now, from the therapeutic culture, people say, "wait a minute. you're saying there are higher potentials, so does that mean I'm lower? because that can't be right". All of a sudden it implied a judgement, and nobody's allowed to be higher because that means someone else is going to be lower. And you're not allowed to call anybody lower; therefore nobody's allowed to be higher.

 

So the Human Potential movement got derailed and was replaced by this therapeutic self-expression, self-acceptence movement, which catastrophically prevents higher transformation and mystical breakthroughs. What is missing in the New Age Community is real intellectual vigor. Under the therapeutic culture, if you feel good, you're enlightened. That is mediocrity, and a conspiracy toward mediocrity."

 

A Bit off topic but this is 'HUGE!' God I Love Ken when he is on a roll, he 'can' be a brilliant brilliant man sometimes...

 

Unfortunately I am seeing this pernicious view infiltrating all sorts of movements these days.

a lot of Neo Advaita, Neo Tantra, and new age schools are falling for it massively.

The 'Oh you just have to be present, and be authentic in your expression' and everything will be fine kind of teachings.

 

Appalling.

[Seth Ananda]

 

 

As I mentioned, Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!...most accurate meaning is, "to go, to come, beyond going and coming, into complete going and coming, where enlightenment is welcomed"...to go, and come back in, simultaneously with the going out,...for that is the understanding of form and emptiness, and from which bodhi is welcome. Bodhi waits only on welcome.

 

 

This Interpretation makes no sense. I am not a scholar but I have a loose grasp of some Sanskrit.

 

Gate is interpreted as 'to go' or 'gone' and it says this twice in a row.

 

That means 'gone, gone,' or 'to go, to go' if you prefer.

 

then it introduces the word Para to the next Gate.

 

Para means a variety of things along the lines of, greater, supreme, higher, or beyond... depending on the translations.

 

So now we have, 'Gone, gone, greater/higher/supreme/beyond gone, {your choice}

 

Then It introduces 'Sum' to the previous line. I am not sure exactly what sum means, but there is no way at all you can get your translation out of this.

 

Bodhi would often mean an awakened being and Svaha is always Praise or Hail!

 

So generally as it reads it is translated to:

 

Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone beyond the beyond, hail to the awakened ones!

[steve]

[steve]

...what?

 

 

The body exists. If physicists want to examine particles and the space between, and even come to the conclusion that "nothing exists", it has no bearing on my direct experience of a body.

 

Why does the heart sutra say, "in emptiness, there is no body, etc"? Maybe it was just a poor translation.

Hi Scotty,

This may or may not be of any value but one analogy that has helped me to grasp the concept goes something like this.

My body can be seen as an antenna. My senses are all tuned to receive and interpret energetic data.

So depending on the specific characteristics of the energy being perceived, it has a different interpretation by the brain.

Light energy leaves a visual imprint on the cerebral cortex, sound energy - audible, the very densely pack energy of "solid substance" is tactile, and so on.

 

So the universe is a seething cauldron of energetic information that has no tangible substance or form and we are an organic antenna that tunes into an extremely small band of that information and creates the experience of existence. The interesting question then arises, what is the nature of energy? And there will be a variety of answers - a vibration (of what?), an attraction (of what?), a flux, and so on - it can get very metaphysical.

 

So from the perspective of my human existence, everything I know and experience occurs through the sensory apparatus of my body and is experienced by the interpretive mechanism of brain. The brain creates the world, but at the same time, the world constitutes the brain. This is one simplistic way of thinking about dependent origination. It's important however to not make "energy" into the foundation or "stuff" that makes up the universe, Because even energy has no substance, it simply refers to change or potential.

 

I love the heart sutra (and I wouldn't call myself a Buddhist) but I don't particularly like it's nickname.

In English, it's probably better translated as The Sutra of the Heart of Perfect Wisdom or as the Wikipedia proposes Heart of the Perfection of Transcendent Wisdom.

To me it's more about the wisdom and transcendence, than the heart - and that's because my Western background and conditioning creates certain associations with the words perfect wisdom and heart. And perfect wisdom is closer for me to the nature of this sutra than is the Western concepts of heart. Perhaps a better English word than heart would be essence or core or foundation.

 

Edited to say that this stimulated me to read a bit about the history of the heart sutra and it's fascinating... nuff said

Edited July 24, 2011 by steve f

[ralis]

What I would recommend as a practice as opposed to just mentally creating more belief systems around heart-mind, is to focus on the heart center, breath in and out from that area. Breath in and while breathing out relax. The breath should be relaxed and connected.

See what happens.

[steve]

What I would recommend as a practice as opposed to just mentally creating more belief systems around heart-mind, is to focus on the heart center, breath in and out from that area. Breath in and while breathing out relax. The breath should be relaxed and connected.

See what happens.

Amen

[Vmarco]

[joeblast]

I was taught to focus inside the center of the chest close to the spine. Breath and relax from that spot. Norbu said to feel for the area. It is easily recognizable. This point unifies both the upper dantien and lower dantien.

making my way through this thread, this one stuck out. Excellent point, ralis, thanks!

[Vmarco]

What I would recommend as a practice as opposed to just mentally creating more belief systems around heart-mind, is to focus on the heart center, breath in and out from that area. Breath in and while breathing out relax. The breath should be relaxed and connected.

See what happens.

 

Absolutely! However, connected breathing needs to be shown by a Connected Breather. Unfortunately, many Connected-breathers have other agendas,...but that should not dissuade one from retaining the services of a Breathworker, like a Rebirther. They may go through a predisposed litany of things like tetany, emotions, etc.,...just focus on the technique of connected breathing and your "heart center",...not the physical heart. The "heart center" is more related with the thymus gland.

 

As ralis implied,...allow all the tingling sensations (usually beginning in the hands and feet) flow to the heart center. At first, the bursts of light may spring you up dancing in bliss for hours,...that's ok. Each time, become more at ease with the blissfulness of this light. If you see Babiji or some saint smile at you, just tag it like a thought in meditation, and be at ease in the light,...the whiteness will clear,...once the connected breathing begins, it usually maintains itself without need for any concentration.

 

I would strongly recommend that one should have a Connected Breathworker there for at least the first 3 times.

 

V

[Informer]

This Interpretation makes no sense. I am not a scholar but I have a loose grasp of some Sanskrit.

 

Gate is interpreted as 'to go' or 'gone' and it says this twice in a row.

 

That means 'gone, gone,' or 'to go, to go' if you prefer.

 

then it introduces the word Para to the next Gate.

 

Para means a variety of things along the lines of, greater, supreme, higher, or beyond... depending on the translations.

 

So now we have, 'Gone, gone, greater/higher/supreme/beyond gone, {your choice}

 

Then It introduces 'Sum' to the previous line. I am not sure exactly what sum means, but there is no way at all you can get your translation out of this.

 

Bodhi would often mean an awakened being and Svaha is always Praise or Hail!

 

So generally as it reads it is translated to:

 

Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone beyond the beyond, hail to the awakened ones!

 

 

What about:

 

To go, gone, beyond the gate, beyond the gates gate.

 

Like the individually percieved (empty) true-self forgoes individuality within the confines of the vessel of the body to be at one with the energy that is life.

 

It is beyond all gates, yet is there a single gate that leads there? Or is it that all gates combined lead there?

 

I see chakra's as gates, and the manifestation of all the elements of experience is percieved through the mind, as a combination of each.

 

Beyond the gate of the third eye, is energy. So to go beyond the gates gate, you would be one with the energy?

 

I may be way off here, any critique is welcome.

[Vmarco]

[Informer]

[Informer]

So instead of bringing it to you (per-say) You go to it.

 

Edit: Sp.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Informer

[Vmarco]

[Informer]

[Vmarco]

Unfortunately your objectivity is become a hinderance, although not to me.

 

I take it you haven't felt any energy, or light, or prana, or chi, ?

 

Otherwise I fail to see your angle.

 

No,...your object-ivity is preventing you from grasping the message.

 

For example, Wu Chi, the Great Source, which exists beyond form and emptiness, and from which form and emptiness extends, possesses no energy. Wu Chi is the Tao in stillness, and T’ai Chi is the Tao in motion. Ki is synonymous with undivided, still light.

 

Some philosophies suggest that Ki can be accessed through three points. Hapkido practitioners are primarily interested in the danjun point, which is located about nine centimeters below the navel. The thymus and pineal area are the other Ki points, which can be activated through Ki practices, such as Reiki and Sunyata. Many often limit their understanding of Ki or Chi by calling it energy. Ki is not an energy; it’s a stillness. There is no energy in stillness, although we could refer to Ki-related energy. T’ai Chi is a moving meditation that allows an unimpeded circulation of energy from the still point of Ki.

 

Ki itself is a still silence that is similar to the eye of a hurricane or typhoon. The kihap or yell that martial artists use, when done correctly, is simply the exhale, or a place where the still eye of the hurricane meets the eye wall of the storm and manifests physical destruction. The greatest power arises through the greatest stillness. The lower a hurricane’s pressure at its center, the more devastating the storm is at the eye wall. The more relaxed the martial artist, the more overwhelming the energy that extends from the Ki. The greatest (and only) power in the universe unfurls from a zero-point.

 

Korean Hapkido Grand Master Jeong told me, “Ki is in the stop [or zero point] before the kihap.” The power is not in the yell; the yell is simply an incidental byproduct of the Ki process. The kihap is just the exhale. A kihap uttered without connecting with the stop is mere posing or pretending. Instead of martial artists’ practicing a yell, they should be practicing the stop. When power comes from the stop, the kihap simply happens.

 

The Ki Master Koichi Tohei said, and gave me permission use, “We are able to move most rapidly and violently when we remain perfectly calm. Likewise, the truest calm is reached when we move at the greatest speed.”

 

V

[Informer]

So this "greatest power" is not fundamentally energy?

 

My statement was not an objective one, as I tried to explain, but subjective.

 

Regardless of what your teacher told you or what you have read, the same remains true, although the descriptions vary enourmously.

 

The only way you can possibly ever describe non-objectivity is subjectively.

 

Like how you were explaining nuances of "only" or "best" path. Descriptiors are just that, not anymore or less real than anything else.

[Informer]

I think you were mentioning matter and anti-matter at some point. So what keeps them from annihilating one another?

[Vmarco]

I think you were mentioning matter and anti-matter at some point. So what keeps them from annihilating one another?

 

Their unbalance.

[Informer]

Their unbalance.

 

Is light and it's interactions objective or subjective?

[Aetherous]

So from the perspective of my human existence, everything I know and experience occurs through the sensory apparatus of my body and is experienced by the interpretive mechanism of brain. The brain creates the world, but at the same time, the world constitutes the brain. This is one simplistic way of thinking about dependent origination. It's important however to not make "energy" into the foundation or "stuff" that makes up the universe, Because even energy has no substance, it simply refers to change or potential.

 

"The brain creates the world" isn't accurate to me. It interprets it. For instance, by meditating on all of the characteristics of a 100 dollar bill, I can't create it out of thin air. But by seeing a 100 dollar bill, I can gather information about its characteristics and come to recognize it as something different from other things.

 

The world is something outside of the brain. The brain is part of the world...but in direct perception, the world/brain/body/sun/moon/stars/cars...all of these are experienced through the 5 senses alone. Through the senses, we come to know the real "relative" world.

 

We all know this.

 

But a Buddhist would apparently question whether a brain exists at all, because they heard some quantum physicist say nothing exists? Or because they took drugs once and hallucinated, so they can't ever trust the 5 senses again?

[Aetherous]

No,..you are not "directly experiencing the body right now"...you are perceiving that you are experiencing a body in the perceived now.

 

EVERYTHING the senses experience is in the past,...ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING!

 

There is no Present in Time!

 

Try thinking a thought in the "now." You cannot do it. Try looking at your computer screen in the "now." You cannot do it. All perceived objects are in the past,...and your delusion that you're "directly experiencing the body right now" maintains that illusion.

 

Actually there is no "past". It exists only in the mind, as part of the conceptual framework of "time". In reality there is only the present.

 

Everything is occurring as this present moment, and I can easily think/look/experience anything in the "now". Do you have some rare disability or something, where your mind only experiences the past? Or simply a false belief that you're holding onto?

 

Right NOW, I'm looking at the computer screen. Direct experience of the world.

 

So your beliefs regarding this are absolutely false.

 

The illusion is what we WAKE-UP from. The illusion manifests all suffering.

 

Imagine a see-saw in a playground. You are somewhere out on the lever. To wake up, all you have do so to say, is shift to the fulcrum. You remain on the see-saw, but from a position of stillness.

 

Already there, as we all are naturally.