What is Wu Wei...?

[stan herman]

Wei Wu Wei

 

Doing without doing.

 

That means, in my understanding, doing what needs be done and that is all, without any alterior purpose.

 

Wu Wei does not mean doing nothing. It means doing nothing if nothing needs be done.

 

And I agree, Wei Wu Wei means living spontaneously.

 

Yes, a good way of saying it--in a kind of intermediate way. At a somewhat more tightly focused way, one would drop the qualifier "without any alterior purpose". On close examination even an ulterior purpose would be included--it is after-all no more than a mental 'illusion' accompanying an inevitable action.

[Marblehead]

Yes, a good way of saying it--in a kind of intermediate way. At a somewhat more tightly focused way, one would drop the qualifier "without any alterior purpose". On close examination even an ulterior purpose would be included--it is after-all no more than a mental 'illusion' accompanying an inevitable action.

 

Valid, what you say, I think. But then, I might change my mind. Hehehe.

[dawei]

Literally this may be translated as "not doing", but its proper meaning is to act without force--to move in accordance with the flow of nature's course which is signified by the word Tao, and is best understood from watching the dynamics of water.

 

-- Alan Watts

Edited June 17, 2011 by dawei

[steve]

Thought is me doing the universe and that is Yang.

Receptiveness is the universe doing me and that is Yin.

Perhaps some balance of these two elements is Wu Wei.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm coming to the perspective that there is a magical and a moral side Wu Wei. The magical one follows the rhythms of Tao . The moral, with perhaps magical results, being to get things without grasping for them, without taking them, and to make things happen without forcing people; that acting with greed and related motivations puts us off the Wu Wei path. Blofields "Taoist Immortals" defines it this way.

 

This makes sense when most of the discussions of Wu Wei involve how things are made to happen or obtained.

[Marblehead]

Thought is me doing the universe and that is Yang.

Receptiveness is the universe doing me and that is Yin.

Perhaps some balance of these two elements is Wu Wei.

 

I think you are on to something here.

 

Think some more and let us know.

[stan herman]

Thought is me doing the universe and that is Yang.

Receptiveness is the universe doing me and that is Yin.

Perhaps some balance of these two elements is Wu Wei.

 

I like that, keeping in mind that the 'balance' is not static but dynamic--always changing. Realizing that without thinking it, and smiling is the wordless Tao, seems to me.

[steve]

I like that, keeping in mind that the 'balance' is not static but dynamic--always changing. Realizing that without thinking it, and smiling is the wordless Tao, seems to me.

Very dynamic - it must be.

Thought arises... fades beneath receptivity.... arises.... fades....

Never ending.

In each and every moment there is thought or there is receptivity.

There is not ever one completely to the exclusion of the other, I think.

They seem to be mutually arising - interdependently originating

 

So when is it Wu Wei?

When "I" am completely absorbed in a task?

When "I" am mindful of being involved in a task?

When "I" choose a course of action that my conditioning and bias assures me is in accordance with Dao?

When "I" am subsumed in tranquility?

 

Interesting to explore the relationship between mindfulness and wu wei, perhaps.

[Stigweard]

Very dynamic - it must be.

Thought arises... fades beneath receptivity.... arises.... fades....

Never ending.

In each and every moment there is thought or there is receptivity.

There is not ever one completely to the exclusion of the other, I think.

They seem to be mutually arising - interdependently originating

 

So when is it Wu Wei?

When "I" am completely absorbed in a task?

When "I" am mindful of being involved in a task?

When "I" choose a course of action that my conditioning and bias assures me is in accordance with Dao?

When "I" am subsumed in tranquility?

 

Interesting to explore the relationship between mindfulness and wu wei, perhaps.

And when we explore it it is no longer wu wei, perhaps.

 

[Otis]

I don't know what Wu Wei is, but I can describe my experience of it.

 

When I am with my rattan staff, it dances about me, flies from my fingers, and lands in the other hand, without any intention on my part. When I am doing parkour, I don't think about the move I want to make; I just watch the environment unfold underneath me.

 

When I dance solo, I make exactly one decision, to get on the floor. The rest happens to me.

 

When I dance with partners, my only intent is to listen to that partner, with my whole body. The rest just flows.

 

When I do improv comedy, I just commit.

 

When I stretch, it is my body that stretches. As soon as I try to stretch me, then I lose it. Whenever I try to be cool in my dancing, impressive with my staff, funny on the stage, or to give a partner what I think she wants, then it falls apart. The less involved I am, the easier it is.

 

Wu wei is what made me realize that I am only the ego, only the smaller part of the whole. When I get out of the way, then something greater than me (but which seems to include me), takes over, and shows me how it's done.

 

It's also the reason why I'm not drawn to any tradition or form. Since my path is to forget myself, and to wake into this other being, then the practice that calls me to it, is that of surrender.

 

For me to impose a disciplined structure on my practice feels like the opposite direction from surrender. Discipline, of course, is still necessary, on two fronts: Staying calm in the face of the unknown, and staying aware and present. But not in controlling the outcome.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Otis

[Marblehead]

And when we explore it it is no longer wu wei, perhaps.

 

 

Hehehe. I was going to say something like that.

 

"Interesting to explore the relationship between mindfulness and wu wei, perhaps."

 

But I think this would still be an interesting discussion even if we never reached what we could call an answer.

[Marblehead]

I don't know what Wu Wei is, but I can describe my experience of it.

 

Yep. We all should remember to dance now and then. But then, it shouldn't require remembering, it should be spontaneous.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I don't know what Wu Wei is, but I can describe my experience of it.

 

When I am with my rattan staff, it dances about me, flies from my fingers, and lands in the other hand, without any intention on my part. When I am doing parkour, I don't think about the move I want to make; I just watch the environment unfold underneath me.

 

When I dance solo, I make exactly one decision, to get on the floor. The rest happens to me.

 

When I dance with partners, my only intent is to listen to that partner, with my whole body. The rest just flows.

 

When I do improv comedy, I just commit.

 

When I stretch, it is my body that stretches. As soon as I try to stretch me, then I lose it. Whenever I try to be cool in my dancing, impressive with my staff, funny on the stage, or to give a partner what I think she wants, then it falls apart. The less involved I am, the easier it is.

 

Wu wei is what made me realize that I am only the ego, only the smaller part of the whole. When I get out of the way, then something greater than me (but which seems to include me), takes over, and shows me how it's done.

 

It's also the reason why I'm not drawn to any tradition or form. Since my path is to forget myself, and to wake into this other being, then the practice that calls me to it, is that of surrender.

 

 

Yes, mastery of any art includes an ability to surrender like this. Listening.. It seems so obvious when in the creative zone that our ego is such a trip wire. It seems once we're really hot, really going somewhere, that our ego is felt to be the leaden weight that we need to release so that we can just go with it. When we do that we feel purified even after we're finished, able to respond to almost any situation like water (flexible without losing it's central integrity). It can be frightening sometimes, like "oh, man, I don't know what I'm doing, but if I can keep doing it I think I'll get there" and then realize new levels of ability. Most of this I say from a percussionist/drummer experience.

 

It's amazing too how quickly we can fall when thoughts of "oh shit I'm great" are allowed in. Art is definitely a potential dojo.

[stan herman]

I don't know what Wu Wei is, but I can describe my experience of it.

 

When I am with my rattan staff, it dances about me, flies from my fingers, and lands in the other hand, without any intention on my part. When I am doing parkour, I don't think about the move I want to make; I just watch the environment unfold underneath me.

 

When I dance solo, I make exactly one decision, to get on the floor. The rest happens to me.

 

When I dance with partners, my only intent is to listen to that partner, with my whole body. The rest just flows.

 

When I do improv comedy, I just commit.

 

When I stretch, it is my body that stretches. As soon as I try to stretch me, then I lose it. Whenever I try to be cool in my dancing, impressive with my staff, funny on the stage, or to give a partner what I think she wants, then it falls apart. The less involved I am, the easier it is.

 

Wu wei is what made me realize that I am only the ego, only the smaller part of the whole. When I get out of the way, then something greater than me (but which seems to include me), takes over, and shows me how it's done.

 

It's also the reason why I'm not drawn to any tradition or form. Since my path is to forget myself, and to wake into this other being, then the practice that calls me to it, is that of surrender.

 

For me to impose a disciplined structure on my practice feels like the opposite direction from surrender. Discipline, of course, is still necessary, on two fronts: Staying calm in the face of the unknown, and staying aware and present. But not in controlling the outcome.

 

Bravo

[steve]

And when we explore it it is no longer wu wei, perhaps.

 

Thought arises naturally, how could it be other than part of our interaction with the Dao?

We were blessed with superior intelligence, verbal skills, and discriminatory faculties.

They are ours as natural skills and gifts. Does using our natural skills violate acting in accordance with Dao?

I struggle with this assumption.

 

 

I don't know what Wu Wei is, but I can describe my experience of it.

 

When I am with my rattan staff, it dances about me, flies from my fingers, and lands in the other hand, without any intention on my part. When I am doing parkour, I don't think about the move I want to make; I just watch the environment unfold underneath me.

 

When I dance solo, I make exactly one decision, to get on the floor. The rest happens to me.

 

When I dance with partners, my only intent is to listen to that partner, with my whole body. The rest just flows.

 

When I do improv comedy, I just commit.

 

When I stretch, it is my body that stretches. As soon as I try to stretch me, then I lose it. Whenever I try to be cool in my dancing, impressive with my staff, funny on the stage, or to give a partner what I think she wants, then it falls apart. The less involved I am, the easier it is.

 

Wu wei is what made me realize that I am only the ego, only the smaller part of the whole. When I get out of the way, then something greater than me (but which seems to include me), takes over, and shows me how it's done.

 

It's also the reason why I'm not drawn to any tradition or form. Since my path is to forget myself, and to wake into this other being, then the practice that calls me to it, is that of surrender.

 

For me to impose a disciplined structure on my practice feels like the opposite direction from surrender. Discipline, of course, is still necessary, on two fronts: Staying calm in the face of the unknown, and staying aware and present. But not in controlling the outcome.

Very nice - but what did it take to get you to that point?

How can we adapt your skill and attitude toward dance to all of life?

[Marblehead]

Thought arises naturally, how could it be other than part of our interaction with the Dao?

We were blessed with superior intelligence, verbal skills, and discriminatory faculties.

They are ours as natural skills and gifts. Does using our natural skills violate acting in accordance with Dao?

I struggle with this assumption.

 

Yeah, I'm still working on that. Again, I think you are right but what do I know?

[ChiDragon]

Acting in according with the principle of Tao was considered to be natural.

What it was being suggesting is that:

Let's say your son wants to be an engineer, so let him be. Please don't force him to be a doctor because of that's what you want him to be. This was considered not Wu Wei due to the interference of one's will. Thus this is one of the natural aspect of Wu Wei.

Edited June 21, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Acting in according with the principle of Tao was considered to be natural.

What it was being suggesting is that:

Let's say your son wants to be an engineer, so let him be. Please don't force him to be a doctor because of that's what you want him to be. This was considered not Wu Wei due to the interference of one's will. Thus this is one of the natural aspect of Wu Wei.

 

Nice example.

 

(You're not the son you are talking about, are you? Hehehe.)

[dawei]

Acting in according with the principle of Tao was considered to be natural.

What it was being suggesting is that:

Let's say your son wants to be an engineer, so let him be. Please don't force him to be a doctor because of that's what you want him to be. This was considered not Wu Wei due to the interference of one's will. Thus this is one of the natural aspect of Wu Wei.

What if he wants to be an engineer on a whim because his gf told him this is a good way, after studying 2 years to be a doctor?

 

Do you have children? Have you ever worked through 20 years of raising someone else?

[ChiDragon]

1. What if he wants to be an engineer on a whim because his gf told him this is a good way, after studying 2 years to be a doctor?

 

2. Do you have children? Have you ever worked through 20 years of raising someone else?

 

1. It's OK as long as his gf told him this is a good way; but she did not force him to change his major. If he wants to make a switch, that's his choice. Thus nobody violates the concept of Wu Wei.

 

2. No.

[Otis]

Yes, mastery of any art includes an ability to surrender like this. Listening.. It seems so obvious when in the creative zone that our ego is such a trip wire. It seems once we're really hot, really going somewhere, that our ego is felt to be the leaden weight that we need to release so that we can just go with it. When we do that we feel purified even after we're finished, able to respond to almost any situation like water (flexible without losing it's central integrity). It can be frightening sometimes, like "oh, man, I don't know what I'm doing, but if I can keep doing it I think I'll get there" and then realize new levels of ability. Most of this I say from a percussionist/drummer experience.

 

It's amazing too how quickly we can fall when thoughts of "oh shit I'm great" are allowed in. Art is definitely a potential dojo.

This very much echoes my experience.

[Otis]

Very nice - but what did it take to get you to that point?

How can we adapt your skill and attitude toward dance to all of life?

To the first question: wu wei was actually what led me to my various practices, and what taught me them. I don't have technique in any of them. Sword-fighting, staff play, parkour, breakdancing, all called me to them, and they taught my body (and my performance mind) to free itself.

 

That said, Contact Improv is the dance that has informed all my other areas of practice. It's a total improv partner form with infinite possibilities. I feel very fortunate to have stumbled on that (and Taoism) while in college.

 

And as for the second question, that's the one I'm always asking myself. How to extend the principle of surrender into the activity, into everything. And I have allowed my future to remain a mystery, rather than trying to figure out too much where my path is leading.

 

When it comes to other personalities, I'm at my least native. A staff is a perfect empty partner; it is neither generous, nor does it have expectations. Same for parkour obstacles, and my own body dancing on the floor. Even dancing with partners can involve both of us disappearing into the flow. But when it comes to emotional jostling and negotiation, the tug and play of personalities, I am much more easily overwhelmed and frustrated (because I socialize from a place of self-consciousness). That's clearly the learning curve that is calling me to it, now.

[z00se]

To the first question: wu wei was actually what led me to my various practices, and what taught me them. I don't have technique in any of them. Sword-fighting, staff play, parkour, breakdancing, all called me to them, and they taught my body (and my performance mind) to free itself.

 

That said, Contact Improv is the dance that has informed all my other areas of practice. It's a total improv partner form with infinite possibilities. I feel very fortunate to have stumbled on that (and Taoism) while in college.

 

And as for the second question, that's the one I'm always asking myself. How to extend the principle of surrender into the activity, into everything. And I have allowed my future to remain a mystery, rather than trying to figure out too much where my path is leading.

 

When it comes to other personalities, I'm at my least native. A staff is a perfect empty partner; it is neither generous, nor does it have expectations. Same for parkour obstacles, and my own body dancing on the floor. Even dancing with partners can involve both of us disappearing into the flow. But when it comes to emotional jostling and negotiation, the tug and play of personalities, I am much more easily overwhelmed and frustrated (because I socialize from a place of self-consciousness). That's clearly the learning curve that is calling me to it, now.

 

 

The love and spontanious feelings given to you and felt by you from the tao are obvious. Coupling your wu wei with some form through training can increase your pleasure i believe.

 

I used to play table tennis lots every day for several years. I loved it. Then i went to classes and i learnt each of the set shots which actually took alot of fun out of the game. Later when my body perfected each of the set shots without me needing to think about them then my mind would go into wu wei (i didn't even know this term then) and my body would automatically use the best set shot (set shot as in a shot proven to be effective through analizing shots in table tennis history) and alter it however it needed to be to get that ball back over the net. "I" would watch my body jumping here there and everywhere lightening fast pelting this ball back over and over and i didn't even need to watch the ball. I knew where it was.

 

I am very attracted to Otis's (Manatou's too) posts because he/she seems to know what they're talking about and it seems to come from a perspective of someone with a free spirit. To me it seems otis would be more balanced by becoming more analytical. Do you find that maths/science is troublesome, hard and unattractive? Do you love art and music?

 

I am too analytical and theory set in my ways. I actually enjoy it, it entices me. Beauty and love unfortunately cannot compete with my internal desire for the rush of speed and excitement. I wish i could just kick back and smell admire the beauty of it all but it's OH so hard.

 

If what i say is right could you give me some more insight into how or why beauty & love is so attractive. Could you try put it into a few words? What is it that lures you irrisistably that way?

[winniepooh_ank]

Wu Wei is action that does not create karma.

 

How is it possible? For instance, a Samurai killing his enemy and not creating karma?

 

I may explain this from an anecdote from history of Islam.

 

Hazrat Ali was in a war and he made his opponent fall down. Before he can kill his opponent, the man spit on Hazrat Ali's face. Then, Hazrat Ali withdrew his sword and did not kill the man. The man asked the reason for not being killed. "I was fighting against you for a just cause, we are in a war and I am fighting for the will of Allah. But when you spit on my face, I got angry, I can not kill you for my self, for my ego, I am not a murderer" was his reply. This is Wu wei

[Otis]

The love and spontanious feelings given to you and felt by you from the tao are obvious. Coupling your wu wei with some form through training can increase your pleasure i believe.

 

I used to play table tennis lots every day for several years. I loved it. Then i went to classes and i learnt each of the set shots which actually took alot of fun out of the game. Later when my body perfected each of the set shots without me needing to think about them then my mind would go into wu wei (i didn't even know this term then) and my body would automatically use the best set shot (set shot as in a shot proven to be effective through analizing shots in table tennis history) and alter it however it needed to be to get that ball back over the net. "I" would watch my body jumping here there and everywhere lightening fast pelting this ball back over and over and i didn't even need to watch the ball. I knew where it was.

 

I am very attracted to Otis's (Manatou's too) posts because he/she seems to know what they're talking about and it seems to come from a perspective of someone with a free spirit. To me it seems otis would be more balanced by becoming more analytical. Do you find that maths/science is troublesome, hard and unattractive? Do you love art and music?

 

I am too analytical and theory set in my ways. I actually enjoy it, it entices me. Beauty and love unfortunately cannot compete with my internal desire for the rush of speed and excitement. I wish i could just kick back and smell admire the beauty of it all but it's OH so hard.

Your table tennis practice sounds great! I like the way that you were able to incorporate technique into your flow, rather than having to choose one or the other. That is a balance I haven't been able to fully find (since starting my flow practices). Once I start trying to learn physical actions from technique, it feels so artificial, so backwards, that I usually just back off. But I do recognize that there is value in the technique, and that if I could go through the awkwardness of trying, then I enjoy the benefits of technique, without the drawback of the my thinking brain's involvement. I think I'm leaning in that direction, but for now, trying to achieve a "right" way pushes me forcefully out of the flow.

 

As for "analytical" - actually, I've been accused of being too analytical, and I think that shows up in some of my posts here. I think that the physical practice has been the antidote for me, in many ways, to get out of my head, to practice not figuring things out, and just doing. The practice leads me toward intuition, but I still insist on being very analytical with my beliefs, because I think that is a responsibility that I cannot forgo. And I'm a huge fan of science, FWIW.

 

could you give me some more insight into how or why beauty & love is so attractive. Could you try put it into a few words? What is it that lures you irrisistably that way?

I think the value in it is most obvious, when I shift out of wu wei, into some form of self-consciousness, such as "how or what am I doing?" or "how am I perceived?" At that moment, the physical world feels more alien, more dangerous. I feel physical contraction in my body that didn't seem to limit me in wu wei. I feel "set back" from reality, like looking through John Malkovich's eyes. I start fearing other people's judgment. I become busy with thoughts, and feel like a "self" separate from life.

 

Yes, the experience of wu wei is joyful, bright, clear, open, effortless, unafraid. But none of these adjectives are there, during the experience. It's only when I fall back into my mundane mind that I am aware of how different the two states are.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Otis