Meditating in a graveyard

[silent thunder]

I am too tired to reply Nungali's post. It is once again meaningless. He seems to hear about some Islamic terminology yet he knows nothing. The subject is meditation in graveyard. I am saying that you will give a difficult time to earth bound spirits.

 

Can't agree with this. Nungali's posts are insightful and lucid.

The only thing upsetting here is fundamentalist ill intent.

[Nungali]

I am too tired to reply Nungali's post. It is once again meaningless. He seems to hear about some Islamic terminology yet he knows nothing. The subject is meditation in graveyard. I am saying that you will give a difficult time to earth bound spirits.

 

As you will , my potential friend who does not share my desire to bond ... unfortunately you are not going to clear up my flawed terminology (I even tried to use Arabic to get my point across as I thought the problem might be a language barrier).

 

It is probably pointless to agree with you and seek clairification.

 

< Both leave the shade of the tree and continue along the road in opposite directions, one looking angry, the other sad. .... The End.>

 

Thank you.

[silent thunder]

I'll be napping up in the tree...

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Hi Z, I was just about to answer, its late here and an old friend just appeared out of nowhere so I will answer you later. I have been reading some of your threads in this part of site and enjoyed them ... I haven't responded as yet as you requested that the reader read some Plato ... so I am catching up, thanks for your response and input

 

Nungali,

 

Thanks, I almost missed this. I have used up my allotted time for long complex posts on the Tao Bums for at least several days. I look forward to reading almost anything you care to post. I would probably pass up something on earwax.

[Nungali]

ZHONGYONGDAOIST:

I am still having trouble working this thing. A long answer directly posted in quote box can disappear, I can’t seem to come back from google and my own files without something happening to posts. If I try to copy and paste quote box to MS word it leaves out your quotes and hence references, when I do post into quote box from MS word it can go wacky.

 

So … I will try this … italics = Nungali

 

BaguaKicksAss and Nungali

 

Oh … we are in the same boat J … snug. That’s what I get for complacently agreeing with Kickarse and not being specifically picky about exact meaning. (But she has this giant sword you see and …)

 

I don't wish to derail this interesting thread and I appreciate both of your fascinating contributions to it, but the following exchange leads me to believe that neither of you understands the position of the Golden Dawn in the Western Esoteric Tradition and the unique and important contribution that it makes to it:

 

Agreed, that I don’t understand it enough. (I am certainly not going to answer for K.A. )

 

“Certain mindsets require certain ceremonies ... or are invented by them.. 'GD style magic stuff' is quiet Emperor / mars / martial / forcing style ... one can (again, depending on the mindset and development), approach the subject and/or practice from an Empress / Venus / persuasive style ...( or just drug them with a magic potion so they cant help themselves { venes, venenum, venom, poison, charm, magic philtre } no offence to Venusians, but anyone who has been 'shot with Cupid's arrow' will agree, or those who have had another shot with cupids arrow with their name on it.”

 

‘GD style magic stuff’ (note commas … not the right words, but it would take too long to explain here) that in this case I am using a ‘magical pop culture’ understanding to quickly and slackly get across a point to others whose scholarship and understanding are not as deep and thorough as yours. I apologise if I offended anyone by using this base understanding and the GD as any sort of scapegoat.

 

The following is a quote from the Fourth Book attributed to Agrippa as it appears in Barrett's The Magus:

Then, with all these things provided, let the exorcist and his companions go into the circle. In the first place, let him consecrate the circle and every thing he uses; which being done in a solemn and firm manner, with convenient gesture and countenance, let him begin to pray with a loud voice after the manner following. First, by making an oration or prayer to God, and then intreating the good spirits; but we should read some prayer, or psalm, or gospel, for our defence in the first place. After those prayers and orations are said, let him begin to invocate the spirit which he desireth, with a gentle and loving enchantment to all the coasts of the world, with a commemoration of his own authority and power. Then rest and look round to see if any spirit does appear; which if he delays, then let him repeat his invocation, as above said, until he hath done it three times; and if the spirit is obstinate and will not appear, then let the invocator begin to conjure him with divine power; but so that all his conjurations and commemorations do agree with the nature and office of the spirit, and reiterate the same three times, from stronger to stronger, using contumelies, cursings, punishments, suspension from his power and office, and the like. (http://www.sacred-te...magus/ma245.htm)

 

Yes, that all seems good to me. I think a clearer understanding of my view on these things depends on defining terms and processes that have developed since this was written … too much for here and too off topic … maybe I could relay that via PM?

But basically I would add to the above, in way of further explanation, especially for the end bit; I might be sweet as pie to my dog … a few times … then if he doesn’t listen I will swear at him like a drover … he gets that! But I have seen some people have total control { actually it doesn’t seem like total control … maybe ‘symbiotic relationship’? } based on no harsh words at all … maybe this is sort of what B K A is suggesting?

 

I chose The Magus because it would have been more readily available and thus influential during the 19th Century than the original. It can be seen within its wider context here:

http://www.esoterica...ppa4.htm#chap12

 

I will note that I am familiar with Wierus' statement that Agrippa did not write the Fourth Book, but I am also aware that he then stated that it was otherwise worthy to be included with his teachers own works, a judgment without which I would be much more hesitant to cite the Fourth Book, and I am sorry that I cannot now readily reference that now. (Too big a memory, too many books!).

 

 

Maybe you need ‘magic memory theatre’ (see my last post in What is Mind) ?

 

A far too influential example of these types of 'rude evocations' can be found at the end of the process of the Goetia, which can be reviewed here:

htp://www.esoterica...omon/goetia.htm

With this type of information available to people several centuries before the inception of the Golden Dawn, why should such 'rude evocations' be blamed specifically on the Golden Dawn?

 

Okay, maybe they should not be … only for the bad reason I gave above.

 

And more importantly what about them can be specifically tied to some aspect of the Golden Dawn ritual system? And by 'ritual system' I mean the Golden Dawn initiatory rituals and the magical procedures derived from them and not some ancillary material, such as the rituals of the pentagram and hexagram.

 

I would like to explore the origin of those rituals, I don’t understand enough about that …. but too off topic for here.

 

The Golden Dawn ritual system provides a specific context for ritual within a very powerful formal system. Within that context it is possible to perform a wide variety of traditional material, some rude, some sweet as honey, it depends on the operator and the needs of the operation.

 

Agreed.

 

This ritual context also changes the meaning of certain aspects of tradition that may appear within it, and so it is not possible to make superficial comparisons.

 

Well it IS possible but it does remain superficial.

 

By the way medieval evocation is the Western counterpart to Daoist military magic, of which Thunder Magic is the fundamental component. So such martial 'rudeness' is not limited to the West. Even the name 'evocation' comes from an ancient Roman military rite in which the Gods of a besieged city were 'called out' of that city and invited to join the Roman side.

 

Thanks for the extra info. Comments like that help me to understand things in a bigger perspective … that is a very interesting piece of info IMO.

 

Finally I wish to make clear that in general based on your posts I find both of you interesting and well informed, but based on the above I see no reason to think that you are well informed about the Golden Dawn,

 

I would come to the same conclusion about my comments, they were off hand and not meant to be detailed or accurate analysis of the G.D. system

 

I could be wrong about this and welcome correction, I am only basing this on the above exchange and some things BaguaKicksAss has posted before. Nungali you are new here, but you are obviously an interesting and valuable contributor to the Tao Bums. BaguaKicksAss, has of course shown her value here many times before.

 

‘Flattery’ will get you …. Everywhere! J (joke).

 

There is so much to write and clear up, again too much for here, briefly a few ideas;

I can see view that ‘dragging a demon’ or forcing them from their domain into one that is partially attached to yours, ‘imprisoning’ them into a triangle and spotlighting and, firstly, politely asking, then if the answer isn’t sufficient, quizzing demanding and maybe even threatening them with or actually applying torture could reek of Guantanamo Bay style evocation.

However, I find this useful ; “Therefore fear not the Spirits, but be firm and courteous with them; for thou hast no right to despise or revile them; and this too may lead thee astray. Command and banish them, curse them by the Great Names if need be; but neither mock nor revile them, for so assuredly wilt thou be lead into error” {and I find the rest of that document at LEAST useful }.

 

At the same time I see the symbolic (and magical imagery ) value of an analogy of a psychological process (taking one view that ‘daimonic entities’ are either fractured or previously unacknowledged or hidden parts of the psyche or unconscious);

The circle is a symbol of the conscious self and the symbols in the circle the conscious self’s analogies and metaphors of perceptions by the unconscious, it is ones ‘field of operation’ whose circumference, although defined, may be unknown (or its extent as yet unrealised) - we could say also it is a symbol of ‘Nuit’. Daimonic entities based on interior subjective awareness are then ’projected’ outwards into (outside of the circle .. which actually contains the hidden unconscious, subjective and internal) a triangle, a symbol of Saturn, or we could say a; condensation of Nuit into the ‘Mother of Heaven’ or Mater Coeli , a structure and form to ‘constrain’ pressurise and even ‘cook’ * elements of the unconscious to be known, understood or whatever as an external and objective energy. In this case ‘cooking up a demon’.

 

[ I realise this is only one view … I hold other views on this process, such as a possible external source of daimonic entities ].

It goes on and on … but I feel I am going way off the thread topic … so, maybe a split or a PM ?

 

* Why cook? Why put things in triangles or pyramids?

 

Cooking (and smoking) is a way to make food more ‘civilised’ and in some cases (gentle heat and light) to preserve it, to stop it going bad and be invaded by other life-forms that will break it down. Many cultures ‘cook’ their babies ( give birth on hot sand, ‘smoke’ them, etc.) adolescents ( boys being initiated and buried in an ‘earth oven’ – heads exposed) older men and youths – as a type of ‘top up’ (sweat lodges, Turkish Baths, sauna) or a continual top up (Japanese hot bath .. note; this is not to do with washing … the correct tradition here is to wash very well and rinse BEFORE the bath ).

 

[ First level initiations (and ‘top up’s) like these are about ‘cooking’ and ‘civilising’ the members of the tribe or society, a pre-initiate is born a ‘natural’ person, initiation makes them a cultural person (within that culture), they then learn the ‘way’ of that culture and society and how to take their place in it … they are ‘cooked’ to make them ‘culturally civilised’. (The next level of initiations are different, they are about making a cultural person, not back into a natural person, but a supernatural person; the ‘gruesome’ stripping off of flesh to the bone and the replacing of the bone with iron bones and replacing the flesh (Siberian Shamanism), the piercing and inserting of crystal rods (Australian Aboriginal) and a host of ‘diamond bodies’ and other types of trasformative practice.]

 

With the first ‘cooking’ practice and the above view … the triangle has the possibility to open things up on a whole new level and see the ‘internal’ demons being possible candidates for further evolution and taking more evolved and responsible roles in the practitioners psyche … you lift up the base, the point of the pyramid rises and hopefully, visa versa.

 

Much more could be written about this approach in Goetia I feel, but again this may not be the place for it.

 

Thank you for your contributions. They help me to bring clarity to my ideas … a bit like being ‘forced’ (albeit very nicely and with choice) into a triangle.

I'll be napping up in the tree...

I hope the kafuffle under the tree didn't disturb your nap?

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have noticed, that posts can only be so long when quoting lots, so perhaps 2 posts for really long ones.

Also no worries at all about going off topic, this is definitely interesting, and educational . Though I am tempted to ask a mod to split part of this over to the Hermetic section... *looks around for mods*.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Nungali

In the upper left of the comment window is a little toggle box that will switch from interpreted HTML like this:

ZHONGYONGDAOIST:
I am still having trouble working this thing. A long answer directly posted in quote box can disappear, I can’t seem to come back from google and my own files without something happening to posts. If I try to copy and paste quote box to MS word it leaves out your quotes and hence references, when I do post into quote box from MS word it can go wacky.

 

to raw text like this:

 

([)quote name=Nungali" post="486461" timestamp="1381888794]
ZHONGYONGDAOIST:
I am still having trouble working this thing. A long answer directly posted in quote box can disappear, I can’t seem to come back from google and my own files without something happening to posts. If I try to copy and paste quote box to MS word it leaves out your quotes and hence references, when I do post into quote box from MS word it can go wacky.

 

For the purposes of demonstration I have put parentheses around the square bracket that should directly proceed the first 'quote' in the above paragraph, otherwise it would look just like the one above it.

 

If you convert your quote boxes and then copy them to a work processor you can keep the coding. I you past raw text in when the HTML interpreter is off you can than convert it into the appropriate quote boxes by turning the HTML interpreter back on and then add such features as bolding, italics, etc.

 

With a little practice you can learn how to nest quotes and do other spiffy things and look like a real pro in no time.

 

Anyway that is how I usually do it. I hope this information is helpful to you.

 

[Nungali]

Cheers

 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1291131680_two-thumbs-up.jpg

Edited October 16, 2013 by Nungali

[konchog uma]

For example you can use *open bracket* then IMG then *closed bracket* with no spaces before that link, and then the same with /IMG after it to embed that picture in your post

 

In the same format zhongyongdaoist used it would look like

([)img]http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1291131680_two-thumbs-up.jpg[/img]

 

Which comes out in a post like this (when used w/out parenthesis)

Edited October 16, 2013 by konchog uma

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Also there is the precious treasure of the Dao, the 'More Reply Options', down by the post button, which pops you into a better editor where you can actually preview your post and experiment around without posting a thing, this is a great 'sandbox' to play around in.

[SonOfTheGods]

Yeah so the thought came up awhile ago.. But in cases like doing qi gong or meditating during the full moon I was wondering if theres any do's and dont's.

 

Basically is it safe? Is there any benefit?

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

Performing Rituals there also.

[ChiForce]

Interesting topic. I shoot some photography as a side gig and recently I have been practicing my craft with cemetery photography. I have done it 4 times so far. I usually spend about 4 hours hiking there. Where I live, there is this historical cemetery and the place is huge and very hilly. After my second visit, I felt a chill inside me throughout few days. I felt like sick or having a cold. I suspected that I have absorbed too much yin energy there. I was back to normal after a week or so. I actually like to going there but never have tried to meditate there.

Edited October 16, 2013 by ChiForce

[Nungali]

Also there is the precious treasure of the Dao, the 'More Reply Options', down by the post button, which pops you into a better editor where you can actually preview your post and experiment around without posting a thing, this is a great 'sandbox' to play around in.

 

AHA! That is how I do it on the 'other' forum.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2013 by Nungali

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Hello Nungali,

To start to address one aspect of your post:

 

and I am sorry that I cannot now readily reference that now. (Too big a memory, too many books!).

]Maybe you need ‘magic memory theatre’ (see my last post in What is Mind) ?

Which I did and here is my response, which I repeat here for the benefit of those who may find any of this interesting:

 

Interesting in that the root of the word mind relates significantly to memory and you used the analogy of theatre.

A 'magical memory theatre' is an old concept and way of using memory , as a storage and retrieval system of information, that gave some amazing results.

See ; memory theatre of Giulio Camillo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Camillo

At the bottom of the Wikipedia article is a reference to The Art of Memory by Frances Yates, which is the classic study of the art of memory, a practice that goes back to ancient Greek rhetoric. I read this book almost 40 years ago, you can read it now if you want:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/art-of-memory-frances-a-yates/1116994498?ean=9780226950013

A book which Tao Bums may find interesting is The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci by Jonathan D. Spence, which is about the first Jesuit missionary to enter China. It provides fascinating insight into Chinese society circa 1600 and is a good discussion of the art of memory itself. As an example the Jesuit mission was so well funded with silver that the Chinese were convinced that the Jesuits must have been master alchemists, a misconception which Ricci, a master of the Jesuit equivalent of 'skillful means' was only to happy to leave in place. It really is a good read:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-memory-palace-of-matteo-ricci-jonathan-d-spence/1001834798?ean=9780140080988

 

I do have actually have an excellent memory, big enough to hold all sorts of pertinent data, for years if need be, and a wonderful tendency to forget the irrelevant. After decades of study there is a lot to remember and it is not all about magic and stuff, but about all sorts of things which eventually help to fill in the big picture. So I really never was attracted to the idea of a memory palace and never worked with it, though, if I started teaching again I would certainly employ the concept with students.

By the way, the above is an excellent example of nested quotes and how you can pull them off of different threads and assemble them into lovely posts.

More to come.

[Nungali]

Yes ... lovely ... the 'other' site seemed to do that automatically ... if any thing it did it all too automatic and sometimes I would just highlight and delete to simplify ... this programme seems similar but set up with reverse options ... or something.

 

Modern technology is my worse subject (aside from beaurocracy administration .... and spelling {where is the abc button} ) ... yet I seem to able to navigate through an Enochian tablet .. curious !?

 

Interesting thing about memory theatre ... hmmm off topic ... can we 'go somewhere' ?

 

I will check ' mind thread'

Edited October 17, 2013 by Nungali

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Modern technology is my worse subject (aside from beaurocracy administration .... and spelling {where is the abc button} ) ... yet I seem to able to navigate through an Enochian tablet .. curious !?

 

Interesting thing about memory theatre ... hmmm off topic ... can we 'go somewhere' ?

 

I will check ' mind thread'

 

yet I seem to able to navigate through an Enochian tablet .. curious !?: Most of us have different talent sets, my brother was bad at English, took to Chinese like a native.

 

hmmm off topic ... can we 'go somewhere' ?: I like responding the open for general benefit, but I agree that further development would be off topic. PM me if you want, maybe we will come up with something that we care to share and start a thread.

 

I will check ' mind thread': I posted there twice, I can tell quicksand when I see it, I won't be returning there.

[steve]

 

What's does one do for balance when one feels overly yin after a visit to a cemetery?

 

Gratuitous sex comes to mind...

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Performing Rituals there also.

 

Just as an actual on topic comment, in Daoist Magical Transformation Skills beginning on page 58, Jerry Alan Johnson describes a cemetery ritual for gaining a spirit helper. This is the spirit of a dead person who is called over a period of several months and then used for magical purposes. Not exactly what I bought the book for, but I thought I would pass it along.

[silent thunder]

I'm headed to a local cemetery tomorrow.

Going to bring some music and spend some time sketching, meditating, offering calm energy and if possible, humor.

[BaguaKicksAss]

There is a historic cemetery in my neck of the woods. Not too hilly. They don't allow photos. So you have to photo carefully, as there is a non-regular patrol through the cemetery-park.

 

What's does one do for balance when one feels overly yin after a visit to a cemetery?

 

Bring in lotsa yang heaven energy . Or at least that is what I do.

 

Cleansing bath if it feels like "not healthy" yin energy.

[BaguaKicksAss]

You guys have humbled me with your amazing quoting and quote nestling skills!

[BaguaKicksAss]

I attended an event in the local cemetery last night. I was there for about 3 hours in total. I went into a meditative state for my walk in (a few blocks) as well as my walk out. I discovered that a cemetery is the most awesome place for stargazing at night! Many blocks of non-artificial light! At the event we were wondering why more people didn't show up, then it was brought up about how perhaps not everyone is comfortable walking a couple of blocks through a pitch dark cemetery at night to go to an event....

 

Several hours later when I did my usual MCO type practice (with a few other aspects), I noticed that it flowed a bit more smoothly, which I found interesting.

 

It was nice being in a place in the city with so many trees and no streetlights, that is quite easy to get to. It was most definitely a very peaceful experience. The presentation for the evening was on building shrines. There were some very amazing ones shown. The local cemetery also goes out of their way to be non-denominational. So you do not see anything specific from any religion at all. However they do have people who show everyone how to do the proper hell money, joss paper and so forth offerings.

[silent thunder]

settle...

be still.

 

 

soft...

so soft

listen...

 

let go.

 

just let go.

 

 

listen...

 

so so soft...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

listen...

 

Edited October 17, 2013 by silent thunder

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I attended an event in the local cemetery last night.

 

The local cemetery also goes out of their way to be non-denominational. So you do not see anything specific from any religion at all. However they do have people who show everyone how to do the proper hell money, joss paper and so forth offerings.

 

Now that's really interesting. Quit a cemetery you have there.

[BaguaKicksAss]

They have events there year round, and they are run by the local artist community. Well the ones who also feel drawn to making the cemetery home for the community. Their view is that no one should be left out. If there are obvious religious displays, then folks of other religions would be left out is how they view it.

 

Some of the events are quite popular and a few hundred people show up throughout the evening! They are also accepting of candle and food offerings. It is owned by the city instead of privately owned, which is why they are so open minded. There is also a giant all souls parade they have here each year.

 

Needless to say it has a much better feel (in most parts of it) then most other cemeteries .