Fu_dog

Flying Phoenix Chi Kung

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Hi Sifu Terry,

 

Sent you email, also can you tell me more about the L shape seated posture what it belongs to in BFP?

 

Regards

Garry

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Hi Sifu Terry,

 

Sent you email, also can you tell me more about the L shape seated posture what it belongs to in BFP?

 

Regards

Garry

 

 

Sounds similar to Share K. Lew's Short 31. The last movement is sitting on the floor with the legs extended in front. The "L" comes from the Torso looking like the vertical part of the "L" while the legs look like the Horizontal part of the "L". Of course, BFP is not SKL so there may be some differences.

 

Garry, Looking forward to your Burning Palms production.

 

Best to all,

 

Bill

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Hi zen-bear,

 

Thanks for your interesting and candid posts about your qigong, they've been very informative. I have a few questions which I hope you can answer.

 

***The one safeguard ever FP practitioner needs to observe is to practice in a quiet and totally secluded space where there is no danger of any person or thing running into you or disturbing you with loud noise while you're in the FP Qigong posture(s). this is because the FPCHCM system so sensitizes the integrated mind-body that if someone does get hit or even if a sudden loud noise interrrupts--that could damage your internal energy on a very deep level.***

 

I understand a quiet environment is important for any qigong practice. What if a practitioner happens to live in a busy urban area or street where there can be sudden unexpected noises?

 

3. Another quality of the FP system is that one does NOT have to abstain in anyway from sexual activity.

this is something GM Doo Wai clearly told me in the beginning in 1991m because other systems that I had studied, such as Tao Tan Pai, require periods of strict celibacy when certain advanced yogas were being practiced/established. The qigong process behind FP and other Bok Fu Pai systems, which I call "alchemy" does not transmute sexual energy in the same way as Tao Tan Pai OR the Taoist Yoga system that Charles Luk writes about in his books.

 

While we were practicing both basic standing and seated FP meditations (seated ones collectively called "Monk Serves Wine") in the early years, and then with the other more advanced martial qigong systems in later years, GM Doo Wai basically and jocularly told us to "knock ourselves out" when it came to sexual activity--because all the stuff in our training--including cooking with Chinese herbs (we made a training porridge or "jook" (IN Cantonese) constantly during our training) and ingesting of powerful herbs via alchohol tinctures and honey-based pills) kept that sexual component replenished and in balance.

 

The herbal formulas you refer to sound quite powerful. I was wondering if you include them in your DVDs?

 

Also did your master have an opinion on seminal retention techniques which seem to be so central in some other qigong styles?

 

Thanks!

Edited by mindspring

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Sounds similar to Share K. Lew's Short 31. The last movement is sitting on the floor with the legs extended in front. The "L" comes from the Torso looking like the vertical part of the "L" while the legs look like the Horizontal part of the "L". Of course, BFP is not SKL so there may be some differences.

 

Garry, Looking forward to your Burning Palms production.

 

Best to all,

 

Bill

 

 

 

Hi Bill,

 

As you said and as I wrote previously, the two internal systems (GM Share Lew's Tao Tan Pai and GM Doo Wai's Bai Fu Pai) are completely different in almost every way, so the similarity in the "L" postures is only on the visual level...a superficial resemblance. How each system works that posture is totally different.

 

The TTP seated "L" exercise--the last of the 31, or the 4th exercise in the abbreviated "Power Yoga" involves breathe retention five times with each retention lasting as long as one can manage.

In contrast, none of the Flying Phoenix Qigong uses breath retention. There are numerous BFP meditations that utilize the seated "L" posture (also with no breathe retention), and they have very different breath sequences, upper body postures and mudras, and therefore very different energy effects.

 

'Really cannot compare the two systems because they cultivate energy very differently, they effect healing very differently, and they apply martial energy (i.e., undo life systems) somewhat differently.

 

Best to all,

 

Terry Dunn

Edited by zen-bear

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Hi Bill,

 

As you said and as I wrote previously, the two internal systems (GM Share Lew's Tao Tan Pai and GM Doo Wai's Bai Fu Pai) are completely different in almost every way, so the similarity in the "L" postures is only on the visual level...a superficial resemblance. How each system works that posture is totally different.

 

The TTP seated "L" exercise--the last of the 31, or the 4th exercise in the abbreviated "Power Yoga" involves breathe retention five times with each retention lasting as long as one can manage.

In contrast, none of the Flying Phoenix Qigong uses breath retention. There are numerous BFP meditations that utilize the seated "L" posture (also with no breathe retention), and they have very different breath sequences, upper body postures and mudras, and therefore very different energy effects.

 

'Really cannot compare the two systems because they cultivate energy very differently, they effect healing very differently, and they apply martial energy (i.e., undo life systems) very differently.

 

Best to all,

 

Terry Dunn

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Hi

Anyone know the status re www.taichimania.com for ordering the Flying Phoenix DVDs,

the page says account suspended and emails are being returned?

 

thanks

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Hi

Anyone know the status re www.taichimania.com for ordering the Flying Phoenix DVDs,

the page says account suspended and emails are being returned?

 

thanks

I ordered them from this site about 6 weeks ago and had no problem. The DVDs are also available on amazon for the same price so you can order from amazon as well.

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thanks,

I ordered from the site nearly a month since, although I am in the UK i wanted to confirm

receipt of order but seem to be having no luck

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Hi

Anyone know the status re www.taichimania.com for ordering the Flying Phoenix DVDs,

the page says account suspended and emails are being returned?

 

thanks

 

 

 

Hi themjay:

 

Sorry for the inconvenience, my website just went offline last night due to a problem with the ISP. It should be back up by Monday morning, P.S.T (Los Angeles).

 

In the meantime, if you have any questions regarding the Flying Phoenix Qigong or my Tai Chi for Health dvd's feel free to ask here or thru my personal website, terencedunn@yahoo.com.

 

Also if you are really in a hurry to order DVD's and don't want to wait til Monday, just give me your order here or through a Private Message, and I can quote you the cost plus shipping and then send you a Paypal money request.

 

Thank you for your interest. And again, sorry for the temporary inconvenience re my website being down.

 

Regards,

 

Terry Dunn

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I ordered them from this site about 6 weeks ago and had no problem. The DVDs are also available on amazon for the same price so you can order from amazon as well.

 

 

Hi billb:

 

Sorry for the inconvenience, my website just went offline last night due to a problem with the ISP. It should be back up by Monday morning, P.S.T (Los Angeles). Possibly tomorrow, March 7.

 

In the meantime, if you have any questions regarding the Flying Phoenix Qigong or my Tai Chi for Health dvd's feel free to ask here or thru my personal email address, terencedunn@yahoo.com.

 

Also if you are really in a hurry to order DVD's and don't want to wait til Monday, just give me your order here or through a Private Message, and I can quote you the cost plus shipping and then send you a Paypal money request.

 

Thank you for your interest. And again, sorry for the temporary inconvenience re my website being down.

 

Regards,

 

Terry Dunn

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Hello themjay and everyone waiting for Flying Phoenix Qigong DVD's:

 

Well, it took four more days than anticipated, but my website, www.taichimania.com, where you can purchase the Chi Kung For Health series teaching the Flying Phoenix Celestial Healing Qigong system in 6 volumes, is back online. I changed web-hosts and encountered innumerable problems in transferring the files. But for now, the Homepage and the two DVD catalog pages are working.

 

Best,

 

Terry Dunn

 

Hi themjay:

 

Sorry for the inconvenience, my website just went offline last night due to a problem with the ISP. It should be back up by Monday morning, P.S.T (Los Angeles).

 

In the meantime, if you have any questions regarding the Flying Phoenix Qigong or my Tai Chi for Health dvd's feel free to ask here or thru my personal website, terencedunn@yahoo.com.

 

Also if you are really in a hurry to order DVD's and don't want to wait til Monday, just give me your order here or through a Private Message, and I can quote you the cost plus shipping and then send you a Paypal money request.

 

Thank you for your interest. And again, sorry for the temporary inconvenience re my website being down.

 

Regards,

 

Terry Dunn

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Hi Sifu Terry,

 

Sent you email, also can you tell me more about the L shape seated posture what it belongs to in BFP?

 

Regards

Garry

 

 

Hi Sifu Garry,

 

How are you? I was out of the taobums loop for 2 weeks because of travel for work, then a week of fixing my website when I transferred to a new webhost. But all is back in good form.

 

I also started a new Qigong class on Wednesday evenings, 7-9pm, PST, for students who have strong foundation in Tai Chi Chuan or kung-fu. During each session, I am teaching both Flying Phoenix (80%) and the Tao Tan Pai Basic 31 (20%).

 

I've been wanting to follow-up with you and ask if you wanted to compare notes on what higher levels of Flying Phoenix we each know. I'll send you a PM with the breath sequences of certain med's with a description of their basic postures, and see if you recognize them. Sound like a plan? Should be fun and interesting.

 

Best Regards,

 

Terry

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Sifu Garry,

 

Actually, Garry, I realized it would OK and to the benefit of the Tao Bums reading this thread to tell you what is contained in my Chi Kung For Health DVD series. So here they are with the breath control sequences that we've already discussed on this thread:

 

Volume One, Five Basic Standing Meditations:

1) Monk Holding Pearl (50, 40, 30, 20, 10)

2) Monk Gazing At Moon (60, 40, 20)- the only med in entire system done with eyes open

3) Monk Holding Peach (I created this name) - (90, 50, 40, 20, 10) legs are straight with knees locked; feet 2+ shoulder widths apart; hands held in a "funnel" in front of heart. forearms parallel to ground.

4) Bending the Bows (I created name): done in square horse. (70, 50, 40, 30) Part A- arms circle in horizontally at throat level; Part B- arms raise to Monk gazing at Moon; part C- palms come together, thumbs touch and lower down center line.

5) Wind Above the Clouds (50, 40, 30) - arms in wide wuchi circle, bring hands to throat; stretches down to right, shifts to stretch over left, back to right, the squares up to holding ball left over right; forearms swing forward, right palm turns down.

 

Volume Two, 6 basic seated Meditations, "Monk Serves Wine"

1) warm-up med #1: 50, 30, 10.. Half lotus/arms move up and down certain way.

2) warm-up med #2: 50, 10, 50...Half lotus/arms held a certain way just above knees.

3) warm-up med #3: 5, 60, 80, 40, 30 - Half lotus/ arms kinda like Monk gazing at moon but with eyes closed.

4) Monk Serves Wine #1: (80, 50, 40, 30 10)- 4 symmetrical movements of arms

5) Monk Serves Wine #2: (50, 40, 30, 10)- about 9 symmetrical movements of arms, depending on how you count.

6) Monk Serves Wine #3: (90, 80,50, 20) - 5 symmetrical movements of arms. This one is the WAKER UPPER. No matter how tired you might be, this will meditation will keep you up for 6 hours extra.

 

Volume Three, 2 Intermediate Standing Exercises:

1) Wind Through the Treetops (80, 50, 30)

2) Moonbeam Splashes On Water (90, 60, 50, 20)

 

**both of these are moving meditations, done 3x slower than "normal" (if there is such a thing) Tai Chi form speed.

 

Volume Four: Long Form Standing Meditation (90, 60, 5, 40, 30)

****GM Doo Wai told us that this was long form med the capstone of the entire FP system. He called this form thee

"Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Chi Meditation" (singular). (I interchanged the word "Celestial" for "Heavenly" to describe the entire FP system) After we had practiced all the preceding meditations in the above general order (not rigidly...but that's the order in which he taught us, so why not follow it, given that the med's individually are so powerful)****\

He taught us that once we learned this, if we didn't have time, we could simply just do this FPHHCM Form and not have to do all the preceding standing ones. I still do all of them and teach all of them, but it is TRUE: one round of the FPCHCM (which takes 15-20 minutes) has the energizing effect of practicing all the basic med's for 2 hours.

 

Volume Five: Five Advanced, 90-second "Flash" Meditations.

Each of these meds take 90 seconds to do and are done only once after the breath control sequence (no reps).

1) 90, 80, 30, 50 ,40

2) 80, 40, 50, 20, 10

3) 90, 50, 40, 20 - 5 symmetrical movements

4) 70, 40, 30, 20 - non-symmetrical movements with each hand holding and releasing mudra (thumb-index finger).

 

5) 80, 70, 50, 40,30 - Basic meditation from "Eight Sections of Energy Combined."

* ph34r.gif * I didn't disclose this on the DVD program, but this last advanced meditation on Vol. 5 is actually one of the basic med's of Bat Din Gum, the Buddhist Art that cultivates a HEAVY energy that transmits tangibly through any organic matter like wood or cloth. (I stuck one in at the very end just to spice things up for those who were serious enough about FP to work through to this fifth DVD) the energy that this med cultivates is totally different--almost opposite from the FP energy--because it is martial qigong. Who says teaching isn't fun??!!! biggrin.gif

 

>>>>>>>and there are more Advanced FP Meditations. But the one's I published on DVD convey the gist of the system.

 

Anyway, Garry, I went through this 25+ minute typing exercise just to prove to myself (and you) that I know these meditation's by heart. KNOWING them by heart and doing them with the breath control sequences memorized--FOR ALL YOU BEGINNERS OUT THERE-- is part of the training (so taught GM Doo Wai) and it makes for smoother, more powerful meditation. It's a lot of work...a lot of practice and discipline--both mental and physical--for a long, long time. (I've going on 15 years now with the complete system) but the results are well worth the investment.)

 

Good Health to All,

 

Sifu Terry Dunn

 

P.S. *** btw, since this is a public forum and I foresee many people ultimately reading this thread: Reminder that the all the breath-control sequences to the Flying Phoenix Celestial Healing Chi Kung system as well as the exercises themselves, their sequencing, and style of presentation as seen in my Chi Kung For Health dvd series are under copyright protection. rolleyes.gif

Edited by zen-bear
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Sifu Garry,

 

Actually, Garry, I realized it would OK and to the benefit of the Tao Bums reading this thread to tell you what is contained in my Chi Kung For Health DVD series. So here they are with the breath control sequences that we've already discussed on this thread:

 

Volume One, Five Basic Standing Meditations:

1) Monk Holding Pearl (50, 40, 30, 20, 10)

2) Monk Gazing At Moon (60, 40, 20)- the only med in entire system done with eyes open

3) Monk Holding Peach (I created this name) - (90, 50, 40, 20, 10) legs are straight with knees locked; feet 2+ shoulder widths apart; hands held in a "funnel" in front of heart. forearms parallel to ground.

4) Bending the Bows (I created name): done in square horse. (70, 50, 40, 30) Part A- arms circle in horizontally at throat level; Part B- arms raise to Monk gazing at Moon; part C- palms come together, thumbs touch and lower down center line.

5) Wind Above the Clouds (50, 40, 30) - arms in wide wuchi circle, bring hands to throat; stretches down to right, shifts to stretch over left, back to right, the squares up to holding ball left over right; forearms swing forward, right palm turns down.

 

Volume Two, 6 basic seated Meditations, "Monk Serves Wine"

1) warm-up med #1: 50, 30, 10.. Half lotus/arms move up and down certain way.

2) warm-up med #2: 50, 10, 50...Half lotus/arms held a certain way just above knees.

3) warm-up med #3: 5, 60, 80, 40, 30 - Half lotus/ arms kinda like Monk gazing at moon but with eyes closed.

4) Monk Serves Wine #1: (80, 50, 40, 30 10)- 4 symmetrical movements of arms

5) Monk Serves Wine #2: (50, 40, 30, 10)- about 9 symmetrical movements of arms, depending on how you count.

6) Monk Serves Wine #3: (90, 80,50, 20) - 5 symmetrical movements of arms. This one is the WAKER UPPER. No matter how tired you might be, this will meditation will keep you up for 6 hours extra.

Volume Three, 2 Intermediate Standing Exercises:

1) Wind Through the Treetops (80, 50, 30)

2) Moonbeam Splashes On Water (90, 60, 50, 20)

 

**both of these are moving meditations, done 3x slower than "normal" (if there is such a thing) Tai Chi form speed.

Volume Four: Long Form Standing Meditation (90, 60, 5, 40, 30)

****GM Doo Wai told us that this was long form med the capstone of the entire FP system. He called this form thee

"Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Chi Meditation" (singular). (I interchanged the word "Celestial" for "Heavenly" to describe the entire FP system) After we had practiced all the preceding meditations in the above general order (not rigidly...but that's the order in which he taught us, so why not follow it, given that the med's individually are so powerful)****\

He taught us that once we learned this, if we didn't have time, we could simply just do this FPHHCM Form and not have to do all the preceding standing ones. I still do all of them and teach all of them, but it is TRUE: one round of the FPCHCM (which takes 15-20 minutes) has the energizing effect of practicing all the basic med's for 2 hours.

 

Volume Five: Five Advanced, 90-second "Flash" Meditations.

Each of these meds take 90 seconds to do and are done only once after the breath control sequence (no reps).

1) 90, 80, 30, 50 ,40

2) 80, 40, 50, 20, 10

3) 90, 50, 40, 20 - 5 symmetrical movements

4) 70, 40, 30, 20 - non-symmetrical movements with each hand holding and releasing mudra (thumb-index finger).

 

5) 80, 70, 50, 40,30 - Basic meditation from "Eight Sections of Energy Combined."

* :ph34r: * I didn't disclose this on the DVD program, but this last advanced meditation on Vol. 5 is actually one of the basic med's of Bat Din Gum, the Buddhist Art that cultivates a HEAVY energy that transmits tangibly through any organic matter like wood or cloth. (I stuck one in at the very end just to spice things up for those who were serious enough about FP to work through to this fifth DVD) the energy that this med cultivates is totally different--almost opposite from the FP energy--because it is martial qigong. Who says teaching isn't fun??!!! :D

 

>>>>>>>and there are more Advanced FP Meditations. But the one's I published on DVD convey the gist of the system.

 

Anyway, Garry, I went through this 25+ minute typing exercise just to prove to myself (and you) that I know these meditation's by heart. KNOWING them by heart and doing them with the breath control sequences memorized--FOR ALL YOU BEGINNERS OUT THERE-- is part of the training (so taught GM Doo Wai) and it makes for smoother, more powerful meditation. It's a lot of work...a lot of practice and discipline--both mental and physical--for a long, long time. (I've going on 15 years now with the complete system) but the results are well worth the investment.)

 

Good Health to All,

 

Sifu Terry Dunn

 

P.S. Sifu Garry, do you think anyone on this site has outlined more powerful, authentic qigong in one posting? :rolleyes:

 

Can you please talk about Volumes 6 and 7 also?

 

 

Chi Kung For Health, Volume Six:

Advanced Martial Meditations

 

Terry Dunn teaches five Advanced Taoist Meditations from the White Tiger tradition. "Monk Splashes Water," "Monk Dries Silk", and "Jade Emperor Lifts Golden Pagoda to Heaven" are three such authentic, 400-year old martial Qigong exercises that cultivate a super-abundance of internal energy for health and gung-fu. Terry Dunn specially designed this regimen for athletes and martial artists. (60 min)

 

NOT AVAILABLE! COMING SOON!

 

 

 

Chi Kung For Health, Volume Seven:

Five Advanced Seated Meditations

 

Terry Dunn teaches Five Advanced Seated Meditations called "Monk Serves Wine," a component of the Flying Phoenix Celestial Healing Qigong system. Each advanced seated meditation combines a powerful breath control technique with an intricate sequence of symmetrical upper body movements. Practiced in sets of seven repetitions with total relaxation, each exercise within 8 to 10 minutes induces a tangible and specific circulation of internal energy ("chi"), instant mind-body integration, physical rejuvenation, and expanded mental awareness. Each meditation has specific effects ranging from inducing deep, sound sleep without fail to stimulating heightened, supramundane awareness. Proficient practice of Volumes One and Two is a recommended before practicing Volume Seven's advanced exercises. (60 min.)

 

*New: This program now finally available on DVD!

 

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Hi Sifu Terry,

 

Thanks for the post, lots of those positions are within my Burning Palm but of course different breath percentages that will trigger as well cultivate a different energy and purpose. I will have to look at the old stuff of Sifu. Like I said on the email there is a few levels of Fei Fung Sunn Gung (golden phoenix, red lotus has its own levels.

 

Busy now, will write again soon!

 

Garry

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Hi Sifu Terry, when practicing today I felt an intense pulsing in my third eye area and this is the 3rd time this has happend while practicing volume 2. I have a chronic kidney disease and was wondering if any of the exercises you mentioned above specifically help the kidneys. I plan to practice in order but will spend more time on an exercise if it addresses the kidneys. I also was wondering if the book is coming out any time soon-billb.

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I have a simple question about Flying Phoenix Chi Kung that also applies to many of Doo Wei's claims about supernatural powers -- chi healing and such. I could make this several pages long, but I'll be brief.

 

The question is if this stuff is legitimate? That is, actually real and not just real in the sense that your mind makes it real, why is it not being explored by science wholeheartedly? For example, if you could really demonstrate action at a distance, there is a lot of prize money waiting for you, not to mention and endless stream of grant money and other funds from wealthy individuals and corporations wishing to develop technologies replicating the action, and so on. In short, it would be a fundamental reconfiguration of most of the hard sciences and would affect almost everything in the same way that the theory of evolution affects so much biology.

 

I've broken coconuts and have practiced various elements of bak fu pai and other types of meditation for several years and have experienced very real sensations, but I have yet to see anything conclusive regarding action at a distance. I've seen Doo Wai move paper in his own recordings with his own setups, but my standards of evidence are just a little higher. I'm a serious person and I don't want to waste my time chasing anecdotes, feelings and hearsay because every culture has some form of spirit healing and when tested are all just as good as placebo.

 

So there it is. How do you know it works? Personally, and my goal is not to confront but really just get at some answers here, but personally, it's hard for me to get it up when it comes to esoteric breath control sequences and elaborate hour long slow moving meditations if there's no way to actually, really, truly quantify progress and if I'm OK with thinking "I touched him and he felt better, must have been my healing chi." then I would have to accept that someone who says Zeus blessed their wife with child has the same standard of evidence that I do. If this could be shown to, let's say, the Randi Foundation, you would get a million dollars. Science would be changed forever. You'd be a hero. Everyone would be trying to prove you wrong but the evidence would stand up to scrutiny and everyone would be forced to admit something is there. This has yet to happen and I cannot begin to understand how, what amounts to, a quasi-mystical pre-science culture could have figured it out without us noticing such an important, fundamental aspect of nature.

 

Anyone care to help me out with their thoughts?

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I think I could be wrong but apparently there is footage of him demonstrating to news reporters that came to him and did in front of them there?

 

I guess many things cannot be explained but its within...

 

People have been attacking Master Doo Wai for years, does his methods work YES, what else matters?

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Hi Disciple,

 

You raise very good and obvious points and I think it is always more complicated than just going to Randi - check out some of the literature on chi (of course a lot is not in English), I've included a couple of papers on Yan Xin that Drew passed on.

 

Now I mention Yan Xin because he's the most well-documented practitioner - there is an English translation of a book going into detail of his collaboration with high-energy physicists in China, doing the seemingly impossible like altering radioactive half-lives, etc. (this book is really hard to find and only around $200 http://www.amazon.com/Yan-Xin-Qigong-contemporary-sciences/dp/B0006F5QTY/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268784877&sr=1-10) Of course, most Western scientists have not seen any of this literature and even if they did see it, who among them would actually vet this? And all this despite the paradigm-shaking potential of such a discovery.

 

Now I still have many questions on this general phenomena, but I must admit, much of my doubt has been quelled since getting shocked by Robert Peng, so now I have to wonder. One could still ask why he just doesn't go to Randi or any other group of skeptics and demonstrate. I don't think there is an easy linear path to proving this, despite the apparent simplicity of "show them."

 

Things get even more complicated when you start talking about unspoken bias among scientists who have a definite world-view (it's there any time you have groups of people interacting).

 

From my perspective, there is actually quite a bit of data on the phenomena, but it will still take a lot of work to dig this up, translate when necessary, and present this to Western scientists who would be interested in replicating/verifying the information.

 

In my opinion, you don't need to go looking for someone that displays supernormal abilities, just look at the effects of ordninary human intent, which is well-documented in William Tiller's works (among others, such as Dean Radin, Lynne McTaggert,etc) which show very compelling data in systems such as Drosophila development, etc.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

Rene'

I have a simple question about Flying Phoenix Chi Kung that also applies to many of Doo Wei's claims about supernatural powers -- chi healing and such. I could make this several pages long, but I'll be brief.

 

The question is if this stuff is legitimate? That is, actually real and not just real in the sense that your mind makes it real, why is it not being explored by science wholeheartedly? For example, if you could really demonstrate action at a distance, there is a lot of prize money waiting for you, not to mention and endless stream of grant money and other funds from wealthy individuals and corporations wishing to develop technologies replicating the action, and so on. In short, it would be a fundamental reconfiguration of most of the hard sciences and would affect almost everything in the same way that the theory of evolution affects so much biology.

 

I've broken coconuts and have practiced various elements of bak fu pai and other types of meditation for several years and have experienced very real sensations, but I have yet to see anything conclusive regarding action at a distance. I've seen Doo Wai move paper in his own recordings with his own setups, but my standards of evidence are just a little higher. I'm a serious person and I don't want to waste my time chasing anecdotes, feelings and hearsay because every culture has some form of spirit healing and when tested are all just as good as placebo.

 

So there it is. How do you know it works? Personally, and my goal is not to confront but really just get at some answers here, but personally, it's hard for me to get it up when it comes to esoteric breath control sequences and elaborate hour long slow moving meditations if there's no way to actually, really, truly quantify progress and if I'm OK with thinking "I touched him and he felt better, must have been my healing chi." then I would have to accept that someone who says Zeus blessed their wife with child has the same standard of evidence that I do. If this could be shown to, let's say, the Randi Foundation, you would get a million dollars. Science would be changed forever. You'd be a hero. Everyone would be trying to prove you wrong but the evidence would stand up to scrutiny and everyone would be forced to admit something is there. This has yet to happen and I cannot begin to understand how, what amounts to, a quasi-mystical pre-science culture could have figured it out without us noticing such an important, fundamental aspect of nature.

 

Anyone care to help me out with their thoughts?

yanxin1.pdf

yanxin2.pdf

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Correction: only one of the attached papers above is on Yan Xin's qi abilities - I've attached 2 more papers for your perusal, again not a whole lot in Western journals but there are a few out there.

Cheers,

R

Hi Disciple,

 

You raise very good and obvious points and I think it is always more complicated than just going to Randi - check out some of the literature on chi (of course a lot is not in English), I've included a couple of papers on Yan Xin that Drew passed on.

 

Now I mention Yan Xin because he's the most well-documented practitioner - there is an English translation of a book going into detail of his collaboration with high-energy physicists in China, doing the seemingly impossible like altering radioactive half-lives, etc. (this book is really hard to find and only around $200 http://www.amazon.com/Yan-Xin-Qigong-contemporary-sciences/dp/B0006F5QTY/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268784877&sr=1-10) Of course, most Western scientists have not seen any of this literature and even if they did see it, who among them would actually vet this? And all this despite the paradigm-shaking potential of such a discovery.

 

Now I still have many questions on this general phenomena, but I must admit, much of my doubt has been quelled since getting shocked by Robert Peng, so now I have to wonder. One could still ask why he just doesn't go to Randi or any other group of skeptics and demonstrate. I don't think there is an easy linear path to proving this, despite the apparent simplicity of "show them."

 

Things get even more complicated when you start talking about unspoken bias among scientists who have a definite world-view (it's there any time you have groups of people interacting).

 

From my perspective, there is actually quite a bit of data on the phenomena, but it will still take a lot of work to dig this up, translate when necessary, and present this to Western scientists who would be interested in replicating/verifying the information.

 

In my opinion, you don't need to go looking for someone that displays supernormal abilities, just look at the effects of ordninary human intent, which is well-documented in William Tiller's works (among others, such as Dean Radin, Lynne McTaggert,etc) which show very compelling data in systems such as Drosophila development, etc.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

Rene'

qi 2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

ki1.pdf

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Look, here's the deal. I've been doing this (Qigong practice) since the late 80s/early 90s and some people get it (qi feeling), some don't. Personally, after years of practice, I have had little results. But I'm still going. I have been around several incredible masters (all Chinese) and one american all who have demonstrated very strong qi feelings. I know it's real, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time on it. I would say that some people come to it fast, some don't but it takes time and consistancey to develop.

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I think I could be wrong but apparently there is footage of him demonstrating to news reporters that came to him and did in front of them there?

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Do you mean that some news reporters looking for a story count as rigorous scientific scrutiny? Or count as anything at all? I'm not saying nothing happened, I'm just saying it's about as credible as going to a magician's house and seeing some tricks. I'm sure you already know how easily people can be fooled -- even scientists. So what is needed, and what I've never seen even, though I've seen many attempts, is action at a distance using an hitherto unknown force.

 

 

I guess many things cannot be explained but its within...

 

Could you elaborate on what this is supposed to mean? When I find something that I can not explain, I do not stop until I can explain.

 

 

People have been attacking Master Doo Wai for years, does his methods work YES, what else matters?

 

I'm certainly not attacking him, and even if I was, it would not be relevant to the truth. I know he lies about some things, as in I have tapes of him doing things he said he has never done, heh. If I knew his system worked as he advertised it, then you're right, nothing else would matter and I could proceed pouring my full attention into its mastery with absolute zeal and passion. But that's just the thing -- he claims incredibly amazing things that, being true, would change almost everything I know about physical reality and would, without a single doubt, be the most important discovery in recorded history. People talk about healing chi or this or that prana, what have you, like it's a small thing. They fail to realize that if it were true, it would change absolutely everything in the same way that the Germ Theory of Disease changed everything -- people washing their hands after poo'ing and the like.

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Hello Baguakid,

I've had all manner of feelings from powerful full-body vibrations, ground-shaking third-eye pulsations, flowing/powerful feelings in my arms and legs, the whole bit. Often times I can't help but smile, yawn and laugh and it's probably the most useful thing in the world for relaxing, more than any drug. I could go on. I don't deny the existence of feelings. You should be able to feel them on day one.

 

Internal force is pretty easy to feel and understand. Using slow twitch or skeletal muscles "within" the mobilizers to utilize a path from the ground to your target you can generate bafflingly strong blows with very little movement, and you have to retrain the body to use those muscles with slow, completely relaxed movements and so on. That all makes sense to me. I can practice that and get real, practical results. It's when people start to talk about super natural forces -- things like moving and healing things at a distance, for example -- that I start to make this face :-/ and wonder if it's worth the investment of my time.

 

 

I know it's real, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time on it.

 

Exactly! I need to know "it's" real, but we seem to have different definitions of "it". What does "it" mean to you in this case? Chi is real? Well what is chi? It was a term invented pre-science before people really understood red/white blood cells, neuro transmitters, hormones and the like. It probably refers to more than one Western concept and unusual perspectives of Western concepts simultaneously, but known Western concepts none the less. It's the same with "internal strength". Taking words from one culture and implanting them within another without cultural context can easily obscure the meaning, especially a culture as nuanced and poetic as Chinese martial arts.

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Hi Rene, thanks for the reply and the attachments.

 

I think it is always more complicated than just going to Randi

 

Is it really? His organization has people come all the time and try to demonstrate abilities. Most are genuinely surprised when they fail. Randi would not cover up a discovery like that and no scientist has a real incentive to do so at all. Real science loves to buck the status quo. That's where the interesting stuff is. That's where the money is. No one wants to sit around and write papers on stuff everyone agrees about. If there was really something to get your teeth into here, young physics students would be writing thesis papers on it and winning acclaim and fame.

 

check out some of the literature on chi (of course a lot is not in English), I've included a couple of papers on Yan Xin that Drew passed on.

 

Were these published in any journals? I'm not a biologist so I can't judge this material. They seem to make several very very casual assumptions about the nature of this energy and that it even exists which I found a little unusual for a biological paper, but again, not an expert.

 

 

Of course, most Western scientists have not seen any of this literature and even if they did see it, who among them would actually vet this? And all this despite the paradigm-shaking potential of such a discovery.

 

Yeah that's a good point. It could be there's some real stuff here and it just hasn't migrated over yet. It's hard to trust Chinese journals when it comes to hard sciences. A lot of them are kind of cruddy. There is also a lot of state-sponsored stuff that kind of totes the party line. If there is something that acts externally really here, that is stronger than placebo, it wont be hard to test for. When I've seen tests done that failed, people would claim that the experimenters had some kind of negative energy that stopped it from working or something.

 

Now I still have many questions on this general phenomena, but I must admit, much of my doubt has been quelled since getting shocked by Robert Peng

 

That's funny you mention that because I do a very similar trick. I made a very very small device that fits in my shoe and is completely impossible to detect unless you hold and examine the shoe very carefully. It charges my body with static and I can turn it on and off with a tiny movement of my feet. With that I can shock people or move small objects. I showed it to an older couple and they were not even surprised. They said they used to have a toy or something similar when they were younger. I'm sure your experience was profound, and I'm not saying he was tricking you. My problem is, I'm pretty serious when I get into something and I don't want to waste any of my time on ineffective techniques. I need to _know_ and my standards of _knowing_ are high.

 

 

so now I have to wonder. One could still ask why he just doesn't go to Randi or any other group of skeptics and demonstrate. I don't think there is an easy linear path to proving this, despite the apparent simplicity of "show them."

 

To me, it still seems pretty easy. Just e-mail challenge@randi.org or call anyone's number on the website and setup a test. You both agree to the conditions and that they are fair. Then you show up or setup some other way of doing it, get tested, get a ton of money and enough fame that you'll never have to work a single day in your life ever again. Just off the top of my head, if you can heal, then we maybe get 60 rats and injure them all completely identically and set 20 aside as a control, use 20 for the experiment and 20 for the placebo. You do whatever you do to heal the rats -- hold them or whatever. Then someone completely untrained will simply hold the 20 in the placebo group. Do this and if the results are statistically significant, repeat the procedure, write up the results in a paper, publish it and try hard to think of how much you'll enjoy the fame.

 

 

Things get even more complicated when you start talking about unspoken bias among scientists who have a definite world-view (it's there any time you have groups of people interacting).

 

Sure, scientists are people too, and some are better than others and some are more rigid than others. Science, though, is not all stuffy rooms and white haired people that refuse to change. That's what thesis papers are for. That's what the new young blood does -- they buck the status quo. As I said before, that's where the exciting stuff is and where people will dig. Digging is being done but exciting results are not forthcoming.

 

 

From my perspective, there is actually quite a bit of data on the phenomena, but it will still take a lot of work to dig this up, translate when necessary, and present this to Western scientists who would be interested in replicating/verifying the information.

 

Yes, there is a lot of information but the quality of the information is uniformly low. Not all scientific institutions and cultures are equal. Western science is top notch, and standards are incredibly high.

 

 

In my opinion, you don't need to go looking for someone that displays supernormal abilities, just look at the effects of ordninary human intent, which is well-documented in William Tiller's works (among others, such as Dean Radin, Lynne McTaggert,etc) which show very compelling data in systems such as Drosophila development, etc.

 

My goal wasn't really to take on all of supernatural-dom, but I will if people want to throw some stuff at me and I have enough time. Really, I just wanted some feedback on this particular system and if and how anyone knows the hours they spend on this a week are actually doing what they're supposed to be doing. William Tiller makes some very fundamental errors. His thinking is not clear and I don't even know where to begin. If you want to offer up some specific points we could do that, but we should make another thread or talk in PMs.

 

With regards to super natural powers, healing chi, psychic abilities and so on, how would these have evolved? People used to believe in them much more strongly and leaned on them much more heavily to explain the moving shadows in the dark and more and more science is shedding light and finding answers -- putting the pieces together -- giving us a wealth of technology. All the while super natural abilities are pushed more and more to the fringes, always seeming to perfectly elude scrutiny. I would love it if healing chi, chi materialization, telekinesis, etc were real -- I really would, but if I'm going to spend an hour plus a day working on something, I need high standards of evidence. I'm desperate, really. Iron palm? Yeah, that's legit. I know from personal experience. Internal strength? Nothing esoteric about it. It can be felt and understood in a few minutes and can be very nicely explained in western terms.

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Nice well thought out perspective DiscipleofScience.

 

 

Michael

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