Running into walls again....ARGH!

[Vajrahridaya]

And, if you had any inkling of what I do or what kind of service I have done, it would curl your locks, dude. Even including providing medical care to Tibetan monks and nuns, trained monks as basic medics and helping to establish a medical clinic in the Solukhumbu region of Northern Nepal. Plus a lot more here, and now.

 

That's awesome! I'm glad you are following your calling!!

 

Keep up the wonderful service!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

That's awesome! I'm glad you are following your calling!!

 

Keep up the wonderful service!

 

Hopefully you'll be inspired to get off your computer and put your money where you're fingers are.

We doing the service could use a little help from the enlightened masters.

 

Hey, I got an idea! Let's say I check back with you in a couple of months and see how you're doing with your 'Engaged Bodhisattva' project?

 

I bet..I'll bet you anything.. that if ChNNR was aware of how you conduct your life, he would:

 

A. Tell you no internet forums for a long length of time to deal with your attachments to preaching the dharma online, or

 

B. Let you have only 15 minutes a day to indulge your posting urges

and either way, you use that time to get out there and be an engaged Buddhist. That's your assignment, Buddha Surfer Dude. This is now too easy a way for you, to sit here on the internet all day and post your ramblings and boastings. You think you are above the rest..but alas! you are below! So get busy and help out!

 

(But I have a feeling nothing will change... you'll just deflect this and carry on).

 

Maybe now you understand why your logorrhea so irritates me?

Edited October 21, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

you use that time to get out there and be an engaged Buddhist.

 

Ok, I'm going to engage with you a bit. I've done philanthropic work and offered service and money though I'm not wealthy in the slightest as me and my girlfriend rent a room together in a house for 500 a month and everything we have is in this room. I used to have credit cards and I went into debt 8 years ago buying strangers books from around the world and I would buy a collection of a favorite book and just give it to all sorts of people because I've always thought the greatest service was giving the spiritual teaching. I do feel that this is my calling because this is what enthuses me. But, just the other day me and my GF gave a homeless man a ride to a needed destination two times in two days. He gave us a drawing of his and my girlfriend gave him 11 dollars and I gave him 10. We made sure he wasn't an alcoholic or a drug addict, he just smoked cig's and drank from time to time and smoked pot from time to time. We felt he was worthy of some money and I gave him a hooded Gap sweatshirt because it was a cold night a few days ago out here. Anyway... this type of stuff happens from time to time. I don't have many resources. But, I do share and engage in the best way I do know how and that is through writing.

 

Those that understand the things I write seem to benefit from the things I have written here and elsewhere, so this is good. What you do philanthropically is wonderful and needed, but it's actually fleeting. It's good for your own karma though and it will help your capacity to apply the dharma to yourself at a future date or lifetime, which is real for me and not just something that I'm saying to excuse myself. But, to understand the dharma to any degree and share it's teachings which will lead other people to the end of their cycling karmic experience of unconscious rebirth after rebirth, to engage with people and share the understanding that helps people to find their way out of psychological suffering once and for all is, as I've read from historical Masters, the greatest humanitarian work. It's the stuff that inspires people who have the resources to do the work that you are able to do. One page of inspired writing can inspire many people to do what you do. Not that I'm that inspirational yet. But, I get plenty of PM's of thank you's and more questions that I am able to answer as I have resources on these topics. If this weren't so, I would not stay here one more second. There are people who will get transmission from ChNNR now because I have shared here. Though it might have happened some other way from someone else as well, no one can stop something that's going to happen anyway. But, this is how some people were destined to come to what might be their root Guru who will take them across the ocean of Samsara. So, these talks and debates are very engaged and have born wonderful fruit, thus has been very positive contrary to your interpretation.

 

Sharing the Dharma is the best type of engaged Buddhism. People are now reading books from an incredible master of Yoga and meditation in the Tibetan tradition. I know that your mind is conditioned with certain ideas of what engaged dharma is. But just the very fact that you are so effected by my writings shows that you are just a baby on the path of Dharma and haven't engaged much in directly experiencing the teachings of the Buddha. So, the type of work that you do is clearing your karma so that in a future life or in this life you may have the capacity to understand and truly experience the dharma on a deeper level. Being subjectively psychic has nothing to do with real Dharma by the way, in case you think you know me through some other venue because you seem to pretend that you do. You really don't know me at all or what I have done in my life other than the tiny bits that I've shared, of which you seem to only remember those aspects which serve your overall negative interpretation of me and my posts. I do not say this to save face either. But in the hopes that you will come to an understanding of your own condition of suffering which you blame me for. You have a very limited view of what engaged dharma is. Also, you don't really understand where the power of the dharma lies.

 

The power of the Dharma doesn't lie in giving food to monks and money to the homeless, it lies in sharing the teaching that leads to endless peace for endless beings on a level that is beyond actions, but in understanding and interpretation which is what you take with you when you die. Of course one's actions should reflect one's understanding as well, but everyone has their own capacity as to the best way to offer service to the people. I have my resources and you have yours and these resources may change over the years. The real service I have read is sharing the dharma and helping people out of erroneous views so that real liberation can happen, because having a house, or getting some food for a while is not real liberation, unless of course it's leading to more dharma teaching. Sharing my Guru with those that are open and ask about him through me I feel is wonderful service and is a condition for great joy for me and those that get enthusiastic about finding out about him. I feel called to this right now, plus it's a good way to keep the time in between doing my job, online, which is the only money I'm making right now and it's pretty constant, answering questions from potential buyers from around the world at odd hours of the night. Then sometimes I have to do things first thing in the morning before I can even sleep like put in orders so that things can happen swiftly, then maybe the ups guy comes and I have to take care of that on no sleep and send more items.

 

Like I said, my plan is to go to school next year once I'm a Florida resident. I'm very excited about that and my grammar and writing skills will surely progress through that medium. I'm trying to write very simply to you right now, I hope you can tell. Because your grudge against me ruins thread after thread. Though I know you think I ruin thread after thread, but only a few of you think so and more people than not don't think so it seems. But, more than anything, your taunting ruins thread after thread. Though of course I'll incorporate it into my cultivation and come to more detachment and compassion.

 

Honestly. Even if I only reach one person with thousands of posts and they see the jewel that the dharma is with any sense of clarity and take up a practice and go and buy a book by Norbu Rinpoche, then even go further and get transmission! Wow!! That is some engaged Buddhism right there in my opinion. This person has been helped that much closer to Buddhahood and true inspiration which will lead to more service as each one teaches one and influences each other.

 

Though, you are entitled to your opinion of course. But, I am as well as all these other people here. I have friends here who plead with me to stay while you plead with me to go. Who should I listen to?

 

If you are really honest with yourself, you would realize that your experience of me is totally subjective, maybe shared with a few others yes. But, is not the truth. As the Truth is relative.

 

Maybe now you understand why your logorrhea so irritates me?

 

Actually, what irritates you about me is something deep inside of you. Somewhere in there, you are not getting the Dharma and it's not working for you if you are this irritated about me continuously over so many months without rest. It's quite astounding. The level of abuse I've experienced from you is borderline psychotic. You tell me to get off my high horse? Well, I'm asking you if you could please get off your low horse. Or... get off YOUR high horse actually. It's actually good that you shared some of what you do, because up until now, I've thought of you as a total jerk, probably what you think of me. But, you seemed to have no redeeming qualities other than the fact that sometimes you were funny and creative with the way you bashed me personally, over and over again. At times I was actually scared that you might be some internet psycho that might try to find me and hurt me personally. LOL! That thought did cross my mind fleetingly here and there. It's almost supernatural the degree that you are effected negatively by me. It's something that maybe you should seek psychiatric help about. Honestly. It's somewhat scary if I wasn't that easy to scare.

 

 

Also please stop assuming you know anything about me and my girlfriends relationship. It's not fair to her or anyone else, this constant bashing and personal mud slinging, thread after thread, wherever I post.

 

She keeps repeating, "What was wrong with me?", "Why'd I do that?". She is kind of an emotionalholic. Not an alcoholic though sometimes she drinks and then sometimes she drinks too much. I have also done this and that night when she came onto E-Sangha was one of those nights, but she was suffering from over exaggeration. She is very pure hearted person as well as being very pretty too, with lots of spiritual potential. She got transmission from Rinpoche and really got it! It changed her life for good. She is still awed by it and spontaneously goes "Wow" from time to time and says out of no where... "He's amazing!"

 

i was just was really upset and i used jaro as my scape goat

 

That was Alana...

 

She's right next to me and complaining a bit about her split personalities, of course they are all aware of each other. But anyway. She doesn't want me to suffer her issues so she's apologizing to the board. She's making great progress and I learn from her all the time as well I learn about my own issues.

 

So...

Big guy? In what way am I your scape goat too? Am I the sacrificial lamb for you? I ask you this because this is kind of freaky, how you are suffering so much because you cannot change me and make me the way you want me to be. Can't I be myself and live my life without you getting obsessively mad? Why can't I write obsessively on a spiritual blog board? I love writing and debating "right view." It's inspiring to me as a reason to be and live. So I want to go to school for it. Like I said, I'm on the internet all the time due to my work and sometimes all night answering emails, then coming on here, going back answering emails, then coming on here. Back and forth, back and forth. Printing postage through paypal and I have to stay at home to wait for my UPS deliveries that happen from 8 am to 7 pm at their own time.

 

Anyway... you need to start asking yourself more questions about why you suffer so much from little ol' me??

 

Also... I am not a Dzogchen master yet. Hopefully in this lifetime though.

 

I hope this effects you in some way to let me exist. Please, can I exist? I'm asking you permission... because this is getting a little scary. I don't know you, but you have so much hate for me. You have followed me around from E-Sangha to Tao Bums. Now you are trying to change me into another personality, into someone you can manage. This is so narcissistic. It's disturbing. I'm questioning your sanity, honestly. Ralis has calmed down a bit. But you?? Are you insane??

 

This is a befitting place for these posts as far as the title goes. Songs! Sereneblue just sent me a message and she assured me that you are helpful to others on this board. I am not aware of these posts at all. So... this is a relief. I'm glad that you may not be totally insane, just partially insane, or fully insane when it comes to me. Also, Serene assures me that you do actually have wisdom and understanding. I have never seen any of that side of you. But that's a relief! I trust her. So maybe your not a baby on the spiritual path, and maybe you're just a whiner when it comes to me.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[zencave]

Ok, I'm going to engage with you a bit. I've done philanthropic work and offered service and money though I'm

This is a befitting place for these posts as far as the title goes. Songs! Sereneblue just sent me a message and she assured me that you are helpful to others on this board. I am not aware of these posts at all. So... this is a relief. I'm glad that you may not be totally insane, just partially insane, or fully insane when it comes to me. Also, Serene assures me that you do actually have wisdom and understanding. I have never seen any of that side of you. But that's a relief! I trust her. So maybe your not a baby on the spiritual path, and maybe you're just a whiner when it comes to me.

 

Vajrahridaya,

 

You seem to have a good self somewhere but it does come across often in your posts. Have you considered that others may find you insane as well? I have really not found any use in what you write but that does not make you a bad person, does it? Also, it is good you teach dharma to people, let those who listen, listen. Those who don't, why don't you let go? Why do you chase them thread after thread and teach Buddhism? It may be a sacred pastime for you, but possibly irritating beyond limits for some, myself included

 

Are you suggesting you are:

 

a. Perfect

b. That leading to the implication you have no area for improvement - writing, communication and plain good courtesy when talking to some one

c. Beyond the stage where you can consciously decide if you are sharing, teaching or simply stepping people all over?

 

It seems like a pattern that you as in Mikaelz's case, read only Buddhist threads or whereever you feel you have the scope to correct people, preach and lecture on Buddhism. So it is natural you miss song's posts. You have disrupted Drew's thread to quite an extent and so cannot really accuse song here

 

If you have your own thread, write Buddhism or something and share your knowledge, I am sure nac, Xabir and Serene can write in those threads and you guys can have a discussion. But you write about Buddhism in every other thread irrespective of whether it is relevant or not. This really irritates folks. Most forums have an ignore button and I am sure this one does too, but I would not want to ignore someone like you who is not nasty but plain irritating. Yes, you can disregard the need for some behavioral decorum on a forum and try to teach or correct every other person, but then you cannot complain when you get some heated feedback

 

Overall you do seem like an interesting person ... good night

[Vajrahridaya]

This is a befitting place for these posts as far as the title goes. Songs! Sereneblue just sent me a message and she assured me that you are helpful to others on this board. I am not aware of these posts at all. So... this is a relief. I'm glad that you may not be totally insane, just partially insane, or fully insane when it comes to me. Also, Serene assures me that you do actually have wisdom and understanding. I have never seen any of that side of you. But that's a relief! I trust her. So maybe your not a baby on the spiritual path, and maybe you're just a whiner when it comes to me.

 

 

SONGS!

 

Serene sent me a PM and said this...

Unfortunately...I suspect many people have yet to really understand what it means that we can not change others...we can only change ourselves. And when I think about it - that's pretty much what the Buddha said too.

 

She also said she didn't want you to feel like you were being singled out for public humiliation. Of course if you could think for a moment about your complete lack of compassion and how you with a tag team of hate-on-VH friends singled me out a number of times for public humiliation with no holds barred.

 

I sure hope that someday you will find some objectivity about your interaction with me.

[Vajrahridaya]

LOL! Astounding...

 

a. Perfect

 

Just as all things are perfectly imperfect.

I don't engage with those I don't wish to. Honestly I only mention Buddhism in threads where it's mentioned or where I feel the wisdom of the information can help someone.

 

I don't go out of my way to argue with people I don't find interesting. Unlike you and some others... oh then you find me interesting at the end of your post. People...

 

You have disrupted Drew's thread to quite an extent and so cannot really accuse song here

 

Actually he disrupted it by asking me questions in here first as I was not engaging with him, due to the fact that all he does is preach O's at a D and the full lotus as the only way to full enlightenment. Your entire take is subjective based on the first part of your post. Overall your interpretation is not worth reifying and replying to.

Did you see the way Drew stepped all over me, asked me personal questions then used the information as fodder for a personal attack, much like Songs. Mostly I think he did this because he was mistaking me and Vajrasattva for the same person, so he thought he was continuing his argument with Vajrasattva through me, thus it was out of no where.

[Vajrahridaya]

Why are so many people so effected??

 

Where's the fruit of your spiritual paths?? How are you people so effected by me, how do you people give me so much power to disturb you??

 

These are serious questions. I'm just a 6 foot tall, 160 pound, 34 year old male from San Francisco.

 

I'm not a 1 ton gorilla from Africa in the same room as you guys.

 

Ignore me if you don't like me. Yes, I post a lot, mostly because people ask me questions and sometimes I find certain threads inspiring to write on. Also, some people bring up Buddhist topics and so I add to that. I used to argue the superiority of the Buddhist view because I was invited in here specifically for that purpose by my friend Michaelz, and he asked me more than once because I said no a few times, but I've stopped and mostly debate with other people about the details of the view of Buddhism or just offer my own experience about topics that have arisen, like psychic stuff. Or I tell jokes and laugh with some friends here. I offer information that may challenge someones perspective. Why take it all so personally and get bent out of shape and ruin threads by attacking me personally over and over again??

[Marblehead]

I can't muster any debate here... time to move on. We all agree!

 

That's not true. I don't agree but this thread has not requested very much input from me.

 

Peace & Love!

[JustARandomPanda]

I suggest we all start using the Ignore function more often.

 

The board provides it. It helps in maintaining calm for all concerned. When there's someone who constantly rubs me the wrong way that's the first place they go - my Ignore list.

[TianhuaQigong]

Buddhism vs. Taoism are the same, believe or not

 

you are thinking too much man. meditation : you should think nothing, after meditation, you should relax. you will be very tired , if you thinking those,

 

the way you know the world will be changed follow your level of meditation . they are all right .

 

the final goal is empty, it is true. but it is ok to work and feel exist for now.

[C T]

Why are so many people so effected??

 

Where's the fruit of your spiritual paths?? How are you people so effected by me, how do you people give me so much power to disturb you??

 

These are serious questions. I'm just a 6 foot tall, 160 pound, 34 year old male from San Francisco.

 

I'm not a 1 ton gorilla from Africa in the same room as you guys.

 

Ignore me if you don't like me. Yes, I post a lot, mostly because people ask me questions and sometimes I find certain threads inspiring to write on. Also, some people bring up Buddhist topics and so I add to that. I used to argue the superiority of the Buddhist view because I was invited in here specifically for that purpose by my friend Michaelz, and he asked me more than once because I said no a few times, but I've stopped and mostly debate with other people about the details of the view of Buddhism or just offer my own experience about topics that have arisen, like psychic stuff. Or I tell jokes and laugh with some friends here. I offer information that may challenge someones perspective. Why take it all so personally and get bent out of shape and ruin threads by attacking me personally over and over again??

Hey there 160lb, 34 yr old, San Fran guy -

 

Keep up the great posts mate!

 

Please dont be upset with criticisms. If we truly live with the belief that somehow we are all connected in some way, and that others have been our mothers and fathers at some point, its not very hard to let things flow as they are. Taking it personally, especially words thrown up on forums, sounds like you have allowed yourself to a good *doing over* and the funny thing is you dont even know these folks from adam!

 

If its truly your aspiration to be a realized master of Dzogchen, then have the mental grace to allow for such *attacks*. Even the Buddha had his share of antagonists! If i were you i would use this as a great opportunity for transformation - remember the story of how the mongoose can transform the snake's poison when bitten?

 

If it really bugs you so much, use the *energy* to heighten your Tonglen practice - i find that quite useful most times.

 

Be thankful for those who appreciate your efforts - keep the focus brother!

 

Cowing to the Tao,

 

CT

[JustARandomPanda]

I still think the Ignore button is the appropriate solution for everyone to adopt in this spat. The alternative is some heavy-handed Mod interference... a place I and the others are very loathe to go.

[Tao99]

I suggest we all start using the Ignore function more often.

 

The board provides it. It helps in maintaining calm for all concerned. When there's someone who constantly rubs me the wrong way that's the first place they go - my Ignore list.

 

Another good idea is to just ignore this forum altogether. Then you will hear nothing that counters, criticizes, or questions your beloved point of view. Ah sweet silence!

[JustARandomPanda]

 

Another good idea is to just ignore this forum altogether. Then you will hear nothing that counters, criticizes, or questions your beloved point of view. Ah sweet silence!

 

You must post from a Zen-Taoist cave Tao99. I get plenty of criticism and counter points to my PoV from my family and BF even when not on a forum!

 

But I agree - if one can not control one's desire to change others then silence is sweet.

[Tao99]

But I agree - if one can not control one's desire to change others then silence is sweet.

 

I agree! I hate it when people debate on a public forum, trying to make the true/correct/right point. No but really, who can say what is the line between debate and too much debate.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Tao99

[Vajrahridaya]

Hey there 160lb, 34 yr old, San Fran guy -

 

Keep up the great posts mate!

 

Please dont be upset with criticisms. If we truly live with the belief that somehow we are all connected in some way, and that others have been our mothers and fathers at some point, its not very hard to let things flow as they are. Taking it personally, especially words thrown up on forums, sounds like you have allowed yourself to a good *doing over* and the funny thing is you dont even know these folks from adam!

 

Exactly, I'm not the one taking it personally. If you follow the history, these handful of people attack me at every turn and make a nice thread into a war zone. So, I'm asking why they take me personally?

 

If its truly your aspiration to be a realized master of Dzogchen, then have the mental grace to allow for such *attacks*. Even the Buddha had his share of antagonists! If i were you i would use this as a great opportunity for transformation - remember the story of how the mongoose can transform the snake's poison when bitten?

 

I do... As I've said, I turn it into cultivation opportunities.

 

If it really bugs you so much, use the *energy* to heighten your Tonglen practice - i find that quite useful most times.

 

If you follow the argument, I'm not really the one being bugged. It's that I bug these guys even though all I do is debate sutra and view in order to refine interpretation of experience, as well I share some of my personal experiences that I've had while on the mat. Instead of arguing the points, these people jump to personal attacks because they say they cannot understand my posts or find any sort of cohesive understanding of which to argue against, so they just go straight for the jugular. Which ruins thread after thread instead of just debating like everyone else.

 

Be thankful for those who appreciate your efforts - keep the focus brother!

 

Cowing to the Tao,

 

CT

 

Thank you! I am working on not being effected by these peoples affectedness.

 

 

Buddhism vs. Taoism are the same, believe or not

 

They are not the same. Though, I can see that if one interprets the Tao through certain commentaries that one might come to the same conclusion. But, Lau Tzu's interpretation of the Tao does not seem to accord with Buddhas wisdom. This is the argument, that for the most part, Taoism leads to a different end than Buddhism and that they have different interpretations of how the cosmos works.

 

If one uses the term, Tao (The Way) in reference to dependent origination or mutual co-arising, then I have no argument and I'm in total agreement.

 

But if one uses the term Tao to describe a mysterious and ontological source of all being, then I know we are not talking about the Bodhi of the Buddhas.

 

I think it's up to an individual person to come up with the view that best suits their disposition and as a person grows through spirituality, I'm sure that disposition will change and thus one's interpretation of spirituality.

 

I have no problem with utilizing tools from other spiritual traditions as I use the I-Ching in my practice, but I maintain the Buddhist view and interpretation of experience as well as the Buddhist interpretation of the value of life.

 

I used to agree that all religions lead to the same end, but I don't anymore. I now find this view faulty and not revelatory of clarity and wisdom. In Buddhism, the goal is not to sit on the mat and do away with discursive thinking and that is enlightenment. Buddhism has an entirely different approach to what enlightenment means than I have found in any other spiritual tradition.

 

The interpretation of whether it is inferior or superior is entirely subjective. It depends on your personal goals in life and after.

 

That's not true. I don't agree but this thread has not requested very much input from me.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Oh we know you don't agree. I'm saying that me, Xabir, and Lucky were coming to an impasse of expression due to agreement.

[ralis]

As I have stated before, human primates are fascinated with authoritarian systems and will argue, fight and destroy one another, just to prove a point. History proves this. Open mindedness and the willingness to question ancient tenets are generally not attributes of the ones debating here. Is it not reasonable to question the validity of ancient teachings and the translations passed down through several millennium? Has Buddhism or any other ism actually improved the quality of life or created peace? If not, then why not?

 

Belief systems are very powerful and can influence how one views and experiences reality.

 

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

Oh we know you don't agree. I'm saying that me, Xabir, and Lucky were coming to an impasse of expression due to agreement.

 

Okay. I just wanted to make sure that my silence was not misunderstood as agreement. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Edit to comment to Ralis.

 

While I agree with what you said I think it is just as wrong for one to try to force a believer of a system to question their belief as it is for a believer to try to force a non-believer to accept their belief.

 

We each are allowed our personal choices.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

As I have stated before, human primates are fascinated with authoritarian systems and will argue, fight and destroy one another, just to prove a point.

 

Debating the finer points of view is not the same as war and destruction. Actually your take on our debate is more violent than any of us have been with each other. Debate is a tool that one uses to destroy erroneous views of reality and experience.

 

Belief systems are very powerful and can influence how one views and experiences reality.

ralis

 

Yes, and how deeply have you questioned your own? Your interpretation of Dzogchen is severely lacking in both study and contemplation. Your interpretation of these debates is subjective and bitter. I see no reflection of having experienced a deep relaxation of heart through the words you share here. All you post are complaints.

 

 

 

Edit to comment to Ralis.

 

While I agree with what you said I think it is just as wrong for one to try to force a believer of a system to question their belief as it is for a believer to try to force a non-believer to accept their belief.

 

We each are allowed our personal choices.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Oh you can never force someone to question their own belief, but on a blog board in America you are free to question someones belief. Ralis is free to make sweeping negative generalizations, I am free to question and assume the basis for this lack of insight. Just as he has spent lots of his freedom insulting me and my intelligence. I am free to see how gummed up he is by his negative conditioning and try to help him see it by telling him.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[nac]

Why are so many people so effected??

People dislike contrarians and many Buddhists are contrarians by nature. For instance:

 

While I agree with what you said I think it is just as wrong for one to try to force a believer of a system to question their belief as it is for a believer to try to force a non-believer to accept their belief.

I don't like the idea of door-to-door evangelism either, (evangelism is illegal here) but I disagree that people have the right not to have their cherished beliefs questioned in public at all. If my beliefs were incorrect, I'd want others to tell me why and shake me out of my wretched self-complacency.

Edited October 22, 2009 by nac

[Vajrahridaya]

but I disagree that people have the right not to have their cherished beliefs questioned in public at all. If my beliefs were incorrect, I'd want others to tell me why and shake me out of my wretched self-complacency.

 

It's erroneous views that are the cause of this not being experienced as an Eden. I used to have the messy view that all paths lead to the same destination which really isn't that insightful and doesn't see the meaning of things as they are. I made an excuse that the Truth was a transcendent umbrella idealism that is beyond thoughts, logic and reason. I used to think... why is it that Buddhists think they have the only path that leads to true liberation from unconscious recycling? As a Hindu I was able to see that Jesus was a Buddha, Krishna was a Buddha, Lau Tzu was a Buddha and Buddha was the only Buddhist Buddha because all these other guys who say that Buddhism is the only path that leads beyond proliferation are dogmatic and don't understand the Buddhas teaching. All these Buddhists missed the boat and only non-Buddhists understand the Buddhas teachings. I used to think like this. Because I thought all religions and all the cosmos had one source, that there was a beginning to the universe a source that was also it's end and that all things were of one substance and that everything was under the power of a mysterious will. Everything is the dream of one dreamer, dreaming his/himself into multiplicity only to become one again at the end of the cosmic eon.

 

Then I realized dependent origination and saw past this dogma. I realized that it wasn't Buddhists who were being dogmatic, it was me... I was being dogmatic and I was mis-interpreting my experiences the only way an identity knows how. To identify my transcendent experiences with a transcendent identity. It's a habit that has kept me recycling for endless time, over and over again. It's the hardest habit to break.

 

People want to take some parts of the Buddhas teachings but those parts that challenge their view, they dismiss as being some sort of addition that came later. But, the Buddha did say in the Pali Canon that his teaching was special and that the universe works like dependent origination illumines and does not work in the way that other traditions posit. It's an entirely different teaching from other traditions. It is unique and it's either wrong or right. But, it's not the same as other tradition which all seem to fall under the assumption that everything comes from one source and that one day we will all return to this one source. This is true, but that source is ignorance, and ignorance can be bliss, and have a lot of knowledge. That doesn't mean it's liberation from Samsara as the Buddha defines it though. Buddha was the only started of a major world religion that actually meant his teachings to be a formal religion with monks and lay disciples, an entire system of methods and contemplations for the sake of liberation from Samsara. It wasn't a later edition, he actually created Buddhism. Buddha meant for his teachings to be an organised path to liberation.

 

His system of consideration is rebellious. It's rebellious against the habit of oneness, the substratum that we are all products of is ignorance. The fundamental ignorance of a final identity.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[nac]

It's an entirely different teaching from other traditions.

... unless those other traditions teach DO, in which case they're Buddhist traditions too and their founders are Buddhas. (or the Buddha is whatever they call the founders of their traditions) Like I said, we Buddhists are contrarians.

Edited October 22, 2009 by nac

[ralis]

Debating the finer points of view is not the same as war and destruction. Actually your take on our debate is more violent than any of us have been with each other. Debate is a tool that one uses to destroy erroneous views of reality and experience.

Yes, and how deeply have you questioned your own? Your interpretation of Dzogchen is severely lacking in both study and contemplation. Your interpretation of these debates is subjective and bitter. I see no reflection of having experienced a deep relaxation of heart through the words you share here. All you post are complaints.

Oh you can never force someone to question their own belief, but on a blog board in America you are free to question someones belief. Ralis is free to make sweeping negative generalizations, I am free to question and assume the basis for this lack of insight. Just as he has spent lots of his freedom insulting me and my intelligence. I am free to see how gummed up he is by his negative conditioning and try to help him see it by telling him.

 

In what way am I being violent? I was making a statement about human behavior which is factually based. Furthermore, I was not specifically referring to you. However, you do show reactionary behavior in defending your point of view, which stems from someone who passed on 2500 yrs. ago.

 

If you reread my post, I said, argue, fight and destroy, which are 3 separate activities and arguing does not necessarily lead to violence.

 

How is my interpretation of the Dzogchen view lacking?

 

Do you agree, humans resort to violence around belief systems, especially religious ones to impose authoritarian views? Do you understand the human primate history around holy wars, inquisitions and crusades? Are you knowledgeable as to the origins of what I just stated? Has Buddhism or any other belief system actually solved this human dilemma? If not, why? What about disease, poverty and sanitation? Why are some belief systems not used proactively to meet real human needs?

 

What are the psychological constructs that causes humans to behave in a reactionary, irrational way when their precious belief systems are questioned?

 

BTW, I do question my own BS everyday!!

 

 

ralis

[nac]

On the other hand, it's true that Buddhism can lead one to other paths (like it led Indians to Vedanta) and vice-versa. From this angle, it doesn't make much sense to say that Buddhism is fundamentally "different" from other traditions. (at least not from the view of these other paths)

 

So statements like this should be qualified with further conditions. Eg. It could be argued that the sameness-view of all traditions as taught by several non-Buddhist paths lies beyond mundane, conditioned differences such as the views and teachings. (DO, 3 seals,...) But since Buddhism doesn't subscribe to the view of metaphysical sameness in the first place, Buddhists dispute that this sameness is real! It's like Namdrol used to say: paths to enlightenment are illusions too. Call this "sameness" or "difference", it all comes down to view in the end.

 

If not, why? What about disease, poverty and sanitation?

We can all do our bit, but suffering will never leave samsara completely.

Edited October 22, 2009 by nac

[Vajrahridaya]

In what way am I being violent? I was making a statement about human behavior which is factually based. Furthermore, I was not specifically referring to you. However, you do show reactionary behavior in defending your point of view, which stems from someone who passed on 2500 yrs. ago.

 

No the view is alive and well in current Buddhas. One can know for oneself how true his statements were back then through investigation and meditation.

 

If you reread my post, I said, argue, fight and destroy, which are 3 separate activities and arguing does not necessarily lead to violence.

 

No.

 

How is my interpretation of the Dzogchen view lacking?

 

You don't seem to understand the basis, process and the fruit, nor the triple gem or the triple kaya. Unless this is all just a game and you are just testing me or something.

 

Do you agree, humans resort to violence around belief systems, especially religious ones to impose authoritarian views?

 

Yes, but I think Islam is the only religion who's forefather resorted to violence to turn people into Muslims. All other religious forefathers teach peace, love and acceptance of differences, but not necessarily becoming one with the differences of others.

 

Do you understand the human primate history around holy wars, inquisitions and crusades?

 

That's in the West and that has nothing to do with what Jesus taught which is not Christianity as it's popularly understood. It also has nothing to do with the Saints, like Miester Eckhart and St. John of the Cross, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Theresa who were all religious in the good way. Humanity will make all sorts of excuses to enact their ignorance, from religion to capitalism. Religion is not at fault, erroneous views of reality are.

 

 

 

Are you knowledgeable as to the origins of what I just stated?

 

What, about holy wars? Human history? Be more specific. The origin of what you do know would be study and the result of questioning.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Vajrahridaya