Running into walls again....ARGH!

[voidisyinyang]

haha

 

 

That's about my response to your assumptions. WOW!!

 

I guess your not that sweet of a person and don't really have that good of intentions?

 

Oh well. First impressions can be lies.

 

 

This is hilarious --

 

"haha" is something I type when I'm laughing. Yeah it's my EVIL laugh. haha.

 

And it obviously was not about "your response to MY assumption." haha.

 

Still first you claim I was reading Siddhayoga forums and then built on that claim stating that my continued reading of the forums was causing me more trouble -- amazing FANTASY world and now you claim

 

I've made some "assumptions" which is EXACTLY what you did but in your case if give no detail about my "assumptions."

 

Please Vaj -- what were my "assumptions" -- ??

 

HAHAHA evil laugh.

 

DAMN you're high maintenance

 

but then you do make an

 

ASS out of you and....

 

[JustARandomPanda]

I have no idea where you are getting this bizarre notion, except that perhaps you are reading The Power of Now, following Adiashanti, or some other tradition that for reasons completely beyond me assumes that everyone already has the powers of perception of the rarest perceptual superstars.

I disagree... this statement misrepresents Eckhart's teaching.

 

I found it to be spot-on myself as that is indeed the message the Power of Now gave me.

 

Tolle makes it a point that as soon as one tries for anything you've lost the NOW. Which is true. He's really good at getting across that we all have inherent Buddha Nature and about desire getting in the way of just being. But to get to where Lao Tzu or Buddha or any of the Hindu sages were you have to first go through the long stage of trying to achieve a goal - something Tolle specifically says misses the point and therefore you should "give up the spiritual search". The end stage for Tolle is taught as the point to begin. It's telling babies to run before they've learned how to crawl. Thus people draw the conclusion they do not need to and should not do the work to achieve it. If they do they'll waste their time plus miss what they were working for in the first place. People like the guy Ingram was answering use it to argue to not bother. Then they'll also argue they're just as enlightened as a sage.

 

 

 

 

Yogi answer to Tolle

[Marblehead]

The question of free will and self identity has always been very elusive. That is why I came back to this thread when I realized that causes, conditions, time, space are all illusionary distinctions. No where could I find a boundary to a perceived event.

 

Hi Lucky,

 

Please understand, even though I might appear to be an ass at this point, I assure you that what I am going to say is an honest statement based on my beliefs.

 

As long as we hold to the belief that 'causes, conditions. time and space' are illusionary you will never feel the reality of our 'free will'. If we fail to see boundries we will never realize that there really are limits to physical reality.

 

It is true that we have free will to imagine anything we wish to imagine. But it must be understood that everything we imagine but cannot be observed or created into the physical realm is only a product of our imagination and is not necessarily a reality for anyone else.

 

We need to be able to distinguish between our reality and our illusions and delusions. I'm not saying that we need throw out our illusions and delusions; all I am saying is that we need to be able to distinguish between them.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Your will is not free unless you're a Buddha.

 

I can't allow this to go unchallenged because it is not a true statement. It is only a belief held by Buddhists. Not everyone is a Buddhist so the statement does not apply to anyone who is not a Buddhist.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

 

 

It seems that here too I manifest this karma? Well it is my karma. So... no one else can do my dirty laundry but me. It seems that people must looooove to judge me? I must have been a bad king in a past life. I cannot remember.

 

Que sera sera!

 

As long as you are being true to yourself you should feel beyond praise and blame. Being true to ourself is what really matters bottom line. It should not be a matter of consideration whether others place praise or blame on us regarding any aspect of our belief as long as it does not include intentionally and unnecessarily causing harm to others.

 

We live with ourself more than we live with any other being on this planet. Therefore I suggest that being at peace with ourself is priority number one.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

 

 

 

 

You do lack insight.

Shankaracharya wrote once that when a being attains enlightenment, that they still eminate karmas from previous connections with people, and people who aren't ready to see the light, merely absorb the reflections of their own darkness or ignorance from beings who are like mirrors that do not grasp or identify with circumstances.

 

This is also a good way of recognizing the beauty of the Bodhisattva path. To accumulate so much merit and connectivity with as much of an audience as possible to emanate/reflect back through these individual packages of karmas (people) as much light as possible. As in... reach as many people as possible.

 

I'm sure Buddhas' nay sayers thought of him and experienced him as the devil incarnate, or a demon in disguise. They literally interpreted his actions, words and ways of being from this dark perspective, thinking it was him. They even wanted to kill him.

 

 

 

 

In a recent post you stated that some practitioners use Dzogchen as an excuse to behave in whatever way they want. Now you state that the so called neg. behaviors are just karmic causes and are not really neg. I guess Ursel Tendzin who spread AIDS to unknowing victims, were just burning off karma and the victims were jumping for joy at having burnt off a chunk of karma!

 

To say that so called enlightened beings just reflect back karma is preposterous and even to say that people are karmic packages is just a way to depersonalize people. Therefor, any negative behavior that arises is just fine? Maybe the negatives are not really negatives and are just one's illusory view?

 

You are denying the dark side of Tibetan Buddhist cult behavior! Karma is not an excuse for victimizing others!!

 

 

ralis

Edited October 18, 2009 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

I found it to be spot-on myself as that is indeed the message the Power of Now gave me.

 

Tolle makes it a point that as soon as one tries for anything you've lost the NOW. Which is true. He's really good at getting across that we all have inherent Buddha Nature and about desire getting in the way of just being. But to get to where Lao Tzu or Buddha or any of the Hindu sages were you have to first go through the long stage of trying to achieve a goal - something Tolle specifically says misses the point and therefore you should "give up the spiritual search". The end stage for Tolle is taught as the point to begin. It's telling babies to run before they've learned how to crawl. Thus people draw the conclusion they do not need to and should not do the work to achieve it. If they do they'll waste their time plus miss what they were working for in the first place. People like the guy Ingram was answering use it to argue to not bother. Then they'll also argue they're just as enlightened as a sage.

Yogi answer to Tolle

 

Serene I totally agree. Which is why I don't recommend Tolle. Not that I think he's a bum or anything. But that, his experience is not that of understanding the process which most of us have to undertake in order to attain even a close sense of the peace he has in the sound of his voice.

 

That's why I find Buddhism to be the clearest path... it understands all angles from instant to process and understands that to get to the instant takes long stages of progress.

 

 

 

We live with ourself more than we live with any other being on this planet. Therefore I suggest that being at peace with ourself is priority number one.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I fully agree Marble and that's my sanity. It's my objectivity within my subjective world.

[xabir2005]

Edited October 18, 2009 by xabir2005

[voidisyinyang]

SereneBlue -- this looks sweet! thanks:

 

http://www.hamsa-yoga.org/wings-to-freedom

 

I disagree... this statement misrepresents Eckhart's teaching.

 

I found it to be spot-on myself as that is indeed the message the Power of Now gave me.

 

Tolle makes it a point that as soon as one tries for anything you've lost the NOW. Which is true. He's really good at getting across that we all have inherent Buddha Nature and about desire getting in the way of just being. But to get to where Lao Tzu or Buddha or any of the Hindu sages were you have to first go through the long stage of trying to achieve a goal - something Tolle specifically says misses the point and therefore you should "give up the spiritual search". The end stage for Tolle is taught as the point to begin. It's telling babies to run before they've learned how to crawl. Thus people draw the conclusion they do not need to and should not do the work to achieve it. If they do they'll waste their time plus miss what they were working for in the first place. People like the guy Ingram was answering use it to argue to not bother. Then they'll also argue they're just as enlightened as a sage.

Yogi answer to Tolle

[Lucky7Strikes]

My understanding is that what he meant is unifying experiences resulting from absorptions or earlier insight stages is not the answer. In fact he mentioned this on several occasions. Non-duality must occur as an insight into what 'already is'... reality has never been separated into perceiver and perceived, and hence non-dual. And hence, unity (as a stage of self merging with everything) is not an answer.

 

Since this non-duality goes on regardless of circumstances, it is somehow 'beyond and unaffected' by phenomena, isn't something that can be entered/experienced or left, understanding that this is just another way to put it but not reifying an ultimate metaphysical essence. It is just another perspective that is not quite right, though trying to point out something. In other words all phenomena are 'intrinsically luminous' without a separate observer regardless of whatever is experienced at that moment, though it doesn't mean that there is a phenomena-transcending metaphysical essence.

 

So does that mean Awareness is separated from phenomena? No...

 

His insight and realisation is clearly in line with Buddhist Anatta and Dependent Origination and I pretty much like his article above (and his book too, though I am currently focusing on self-inquiry instead)

 

Right, there is no ultimate metaphysical essence outside of Awareness.

 

Awareness and its luminosity has always been the nature of phenomena. The distinctions one makes, which is another state of Awareness itself, and an identification with the subject vs. an object is what is illusory.

 

It is the eternal "I-ness." For anything to exist it must be within Awareness, within the Mind. It must be self-conscious, else, how can you know it exists? This is the only quality that cannot be changed and it is permanent.

 

It is neither the observer or the observed because both point to a subject object duality. There never was any such dualities except within the imagination. Your mind has drawn lines in empty space. In reality there is no set distinction between the two.

 

The luminosity is not dependently originated. It is what phenomena is. Dependent origination applies to the content of the luminosity wherein the distinctions of this and that are made. Once this is grasped, there is suddenly that. And then there is suddenly all these definitions, causes, conditions within the Mind. Hence suffering. Dependent origination and self inquiry are both methods of getting rid of the habitual seeds the Mind has accustomed itself to. It is destroying all false causes and discrimination.

 

There is nothing but your own Awareness, and it has the total freedom and infinite potentials to create, interact, and dream. It has created this world, it can create new worlds, live in it, die in it, suffer in it. To realize this is to be freed from identifying with the falsely arisen causes within. And the servant is no longer the master.

 

You are totally alone, everything, and free. You are in everything. And everything is in you.

 

Each mind stream is its own creation. This is not to say that there is no "you" or other. The essence of "other" is projected into your mind. In the same way, your reality is simultaneously happening, reflected, in those you interact with. Actually it is reflected in infinite number of consciousness creations.

 

Note: Certain Taoist methods mention how the practitioner, when he dreams of ascending into the heavens, actually does so both in his mind and in the heavens.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[voidisyinyang]

Bhante Vimalarasi -- is another "high-profile" Theravada Monk who has criticized Vipassana while also teaching mind yoga awareness:

 

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=6142842850607581601#

 

I'm still for the full-lotus practice. haha.

 

Right, there is no ultimate metaphysical essence outside of Awareness.

 

Awareness and its luminosity has always been the nature of phenomena. The distinctions one makes, which is another state of Awareness itself, and an identification with the subject vs. an object is what is illusory.

 

It is the eternal "I-ness." For anything to exist it must be within Awareness, within the Mind. It must be self-conscious, else, how can you know it exists? This is the only quality that cannot be changed and it is permanent.

 

It is neither the observer or the observed because both point to a subject object duality. There never was any such dualities except within the imagination. Your mind has drawn lines in empty space. In reality there is no set distinction between the two.

 

The luminosity is not dependently originated. It is what phenomena is. Dependent origination applies to the content of the luminosity wherein the distinctions of this and that are made. Once this is grasped, there is suddenly that. And then there is suddenly all these definitions, causes, conditions within the Mind. Hence suffering.

 

There is nothing but your own Awareness, and it has the total freedom and infinite potentials to create, interact, and dream. To realize this is to be freed from identifying with the falsely arisen causes within.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The luminosity is not dependently originated.

 

So, you are saying that luminosity is not empty. See, in my understanding of experience and Buddhology, luminosity is a result of consciousness being aware of emptiness, so the experience arises dependent upon the insight of emptiness/dependent origination.

 

In my understanding of what you are saying, you are through and through Zhentong.

Wiki link to explanation.

 

I can understand this view, but I don't agree. When I think of dependent origination and apply it to awareness as well... I feel more clarity and a subtler bliss.

 

But... there are plenty of great Tibetan Masters who I fully respect and who's realizations are far more developed than mine who were Zhentong, though most Tibetan Masters are Rangtong.

 

Anyway... Nice thoughts!

[Lucky7Strikes]

So, you are saying that luminosity is not empty. See, in my understanding of experience and Buddhology, luminosity is a result of consciousness being aware of emptiness, so the experience arises dependent upon the insight of emptiness/dependent origination.

 

Luminosity is not a "state" of non-dual absorption. It is reached through "causes and conditions" as you say, but it is because the causes and conditions were themselves created within the Mind's luminous Awareness. Questioning dispels these false assumptions.

 

This is simply the beginning of true cultivation, where you create infinite virtues to be reflected in other mind "systems." In this case, D.O. is a great tool indeed.

 

You are creating your essence as it would happen in a certain cause and condition within other mind-systems.

 

Anything it is is Awareness, because it is simply existence.

 

This luminosity is the basis for infinite Compassion. Seeing Dependent Origination to everything is infinite wisdom.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[steve]

....., though I am currently focusing on self-inquiry instead)

_/\_

[Vajrahridaya]

 

This luminosity is the basis for infinite Compassion. Seeing Dependent Origination to everything is infinite wisdom.

 

Wonderful!

[Vajrahridaya]

I... watched some TV.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Out of curiosity Marble. What are your favorite shows?

[JustARandomPanda]

This luminosity is the basis for infinite Compassion. Seeing Dependent Origination to everything is infinite wisdom.

 

Is there a way to both? Why must one assert one is the higher 'realization' over another?

 

 

p.s. Thanks for the links Drew.

[Sunya]

[Vajrahridaya]

there is no One Dreamer as Lucky keeps alluding to.

 

Lucky is actually saying that there are infinite dreamers. Infinite "I's". Not one awareness substratum, but infinite all co-creating. He doesn't understand though that having the experience of the child rigpa is all he's describing, but having the experience of the mother rigpa is where one see's one's awareness as interdependent with all other streams of mind, therefore empty of inherent existence. It's a very subtle switch... to actually see how this makes sense.

 

But anyway... he's not succumbing to the extreme of a one consciousness is all paradigm.

[Sunya]

Right, there is no ultimate metaphysical essence outside of Awareness.

 

there is no ultimate metaphysical essence, period.

 

It is the eternal "I-ness." For anything to exist it must be within Awareness, within the Mind. It must be self-conscious, else, how can you know it exists? This is the only quality that cannot be changed and it is permanent.

 

Mind is not a grand container that contains phenomena. phenomena is mind, let go of the need to have a container.

 

It is neither the observer or the observed because both point to a subject object duality. There never was any such dualities except within the imagination. Your mind has drawn lines in empty space. In reality there is no set distinction between the two.

 

so instead of this duality there is simply the observer? how is that not dualistic?

 

 

The luminosity is not dependently originated. It is what phenomena is. Dependent origination applies to the content of the luminosity wherein the distinctions of this and that are made. Once this is grasped, there is suddenly that. And then there is suddenly all these definitions, causes, conditions within the Mind. Hence suffering. Dependent origination and self inquiry are both methods of getting rid of the habitual seeds the Mind has accustomed itself to. It is destroying all false causes and discrimination.

 

emptiness applies to luminosity, luminosity is not separate from phenomena.. phenomena IS luminosity. luminosity is not a container that contains phenomena.. there is no container.. there is simply the flow of phenomena and that IS luminosity.

 

There is nothing but your own Awareness, and it has the total freedom and infinite potentials to create, interact, and dream. It has created this world, it can create new worlds, live in it, die in it, suffer in it. To realize this is to be freed from identifying with the falsely arisen causes within. And the servant is no longer the master.

 

who's awareness? who creates? awareness is a conscious being that creates?

 

You are totally alone, everything, and free. You are in everything. And everything is in you.

 

'You' depends on 'other', if you get rid of 'other', there can no longer be a 'you'. the sense of 'I'ness continues because of past karmic affiliations with the subject.

[Vajrahridaya]

[Gerard]

Bhante Vimalarasi -- is another "high-profile" Theravada Monk who has criticized Vipassana while also teaching mind yoga awareness:

 

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=6142842850607581601#

 

 

Very good video. Thanks for uploading this at Tao Bums.

 

Loving kindness meditation is the next and final step after Vipassana purification. This can also be attained with Zhan Zhuang, also practiced by the Buddha. But ZZ cannot be practiced during fasting. Very powerful though and it also leads to enlightenment.

[voidisyinyang]

[xabir2005]

Edited October 19, 2009 by xabir2005

[Lucky7Strikes]

there is no ultimate metaphysical essence, period.

 

Mind is not a grand container that contains phenomena. phenomena is mind, let go of the need to have a container.

 

so instead of this duality there is simply the observer? how is that not dualistic?

 

emptiness applies to luminosity, luminosity is not separate from phenomena.. phenomena IS luminosity. luminosity is not a container that contains phenomena.. there is no container.. there is simply the flow of phenomena and that IS luminosity.

 

who's awareness? who creates? awareness is a conscious being that creates?

 

'You' depends on 'other', if you get rid of 'other', there can no longer be a 'you'. the sense of 'I'ness continues because of past karmic affiliations with the subject.

 

I'm not saying anything is the container. I AM saying that Mind is phenomena. When I say "within" I am pointing to the source of a perceived object. It isn't there, because all it is is the mind. I don't think you're understanding me clearly.

 

There is no flow of phenomena outside of your mind's own creations.

 

YES, YES awareness is a conscious being that creates! It cannot exist without creating!

 

EXACTLY! The concept of "I" can only be if there is the OTHER. The mind cannot know itself. Awareness cannot be aware without creating a mirror, the OTHER. That is why there is creation! HAHAHA!

 

Watch your mind, can you know yourself without an OTHER? Can there be self awareness if there is no duality that arises? Even if you are absorbed in endless formless bliss, the flower in the sky will appear out of absolutely NOTHING! Why? Because your awareness, like the mind, NEEDS the object to know of its own very existence! .

 

 

 

So, you are saying that luminosity is not empty. See, in my understanding of experience and Buddhology, luminosity is a result of consciousness being aware of emptiness, so the experience arises dependent upon the insight of emptiness/dependent origination.

 

In my understanding of what you are saying, you are through and through Zhentong.

Wiki link to explanation.

 

I can understand this view, but I don't agree. When I think of dependent origination and apply it to awareness as well... I feel more clarity and a subtler bliss.

 

But... there are plenty of great Tibetan Masters who I fully respect and who's realizations are far more developed than mine who were Zhentong, though most Tibetan Masters are Rangtong.

 

Anyway... Nice thoughts!

 

I think I'm beginning to see what you are getting at. There cannot be a pure subject. Awareness needs to be reflected for it to be aware. So it's not that luminosity is empty, but that its very nature is Depedent Origination. It is the only way reality can be. ....

Edited October 19, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[xabir2005]

I think I'm beginning to see what you are getting at. There cannot be a pure subject. Awareness needs to be reflected for it to be aware. So it's not that luminosity is empty, but that its very nature is Depedent Origination. It is the only way reality can be. ....

Closer, but not quite there yet.

 

What you described is the Thusness Stage 4 understanding, or Level 2 of the 3 levels of understanding Non Dual:

 

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

 

What I said here, is not really correct. Thought is, but no thinker. Sound is, but no hearer. Awareness cannot be separated from thoughts and manifestation.

 

(Thusness/PasserBy):

 

Yes but what said can still have the following scenario:

 

1. There is an Awareness reflecting thoughts and manifestation.

 

2. Thoughts and manifestation are required for the mirror to see itself.

 

3. Thoughts and manifestation have always been the mirror

 

In 3 not even a quantum line can be drawn from whatever arises; whatever that appears to come and goes is the Awareness itself. There is no Awareness other than that. We should use the teachings of Anatta (no-self), DO (dependent origination) and Emptiness to see the 'forms' of awareness.

Edited October 19, 2009 by xabir2005

[Lucky7Strikes]

Closer, but not quite there yet.

 

What you described is the Thusness Stage 4 understanding, or Level 2 of the 3 levels of understanding Non Dual:

(Thusness/PasserBy):

 

Yes but what said can still have the following scenario:

 

1. There is an Awareness reflecting thoughts and manifestation.

 

2. Thoughts and manifestation are required for the mirror to see itself.

 

3. Thoughts and manifestation have always been the mirror

 

In 3 not even a quantum line can be drawn from whatever arises; whatever that appears to come and goes is the Awareness itself. There is no Awareness other than that. We should use the teachings of Anatta (no-self), DO (dependent origination) and Emptiness to see the 'forms' of awareness.

 

This makes perfect sense. Thank you! .

 

Where does one go from here?

Edited October 19, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes