Chinese official site for Taoist Master Wang Liping's 2009 public teaching

[h.uriahr]

All,

 

I am very thankful to Master Wang Li Ping and Kathy Li for sharing the teachings. They are very kind.

Though I am rubbed the wrong way with pricing. Why should Foreigners have to pay more? Do we have higher prices for Chinese when they travel overseas? For the most part no. But I have to pay more going to the Forbidden City and pay more to listen to an English audio tour than a Chinese does.

 

In my opinion the best is to spread the teaching all over and see what becomes of it. Jesus nor Buddha wasn't charging. Second best would be to charge a fee to offset the modern costs. But when you have different pricing for different races that is discriminating and unfair.

 

If you have a product or service your costs are the same and doesn't depend on the race or origin of the individual. So the price should be the same for everyone.

 

With all respect to the gracious teachers mentioned, foreigners are subsidizing Chinese and if they were having different prices in the USA it would be considered discrimination.

 

My hope is they would have the same pricing but it is a free will world and they can do what they want. I wish them and the group as a whole good luck, and thanks.

 

How is this racial discrimination?

[gendao]

I am very thankful to Master Wang Li Ping and Kathy Li for sharing the teachings. They are very kind.

Though I am rubbed the wrong way with pricing. Why should Foreigners have to pay more? Do we have higher prices for Chinese when they travel overseas? For the most part no. But I have to pay more going to the Forbidden City and pay more to listen to an English audio tour than a Chinese does.

 

In my opinion the best is to spread the teaching all over and see what becomes of it. Jesus nor Buddha wasn't charging. Second best would be to charge a fee to offset the modern costs. But when you have different pricing for different races that is discriminating and unfair.

 

If you have a product or service your costs are the same and doesn't depend on the race or origin of the individual. So the price should be the same for everyone.

 

With all respect to the gracious teachers mentioned, foreigners are subsidizing Chinese and if they were having different prices in the USA it would be considered discrimination.

 

My hope is they would have the same pricing but it is a free will world and they can do what they want. I wish them and the group as a whole good luck, and thanks.

Actually, the Chinese probably wished the US had a tiered pricing system based on average income - because then they would only pay 10% of whatever Americans pay here. Americans mainly use uniform pricing here because it actually works to their advantage 90% of the time.

 

"Jesus" certainly charges. The Bible instructs Christians to tithe 10% of their income to the Church. And what do you get in return for that? Basically the same sermon every weekend and some social networking. But certainly no Gnostic or Essenic techniques.

 

Mahayana Buddhism doesn't charge, but esoteric techniques in say, Dzogchen Buddhism, are not handed out easily or "freely." Just like how esoteric techniques in the Knights Templar or Rosicrucians aren't either.

 

And again, the USA already does have different pricing for different races - see race-based affirmative action here. Are you saying that's not discrimination?

 

Whereas the Chinese policy actually isn't race-based, it's nationality-based.

 

All this said, I don't think it's "wrong" for foreigners to complain about high prices. Ask, and thou shalt often receive! However, whether it's high or not, foreigners are nonetheless paying the same relative price as local Chinese.

 

And as far as how "fair" tiered pricing in general is, I guess it depends on how you look at it. But, it is also done here too.

 

 

- For example, a friend recently went to a hospital and was billed ~$3500. Now, someone who qualifies for some type of indigent care status would only be required to pay $100 for the same services. In essence, those who can afford it are forced to subsidize those who can't at a ratio of 35X here. In fact, that's how most insurance works. Those who can end up paying more for those who can't.

 

- Another female engineer grad recently got a ~$75K starting salary, which is about 50% above the norm. She is not particularly bright, but since women are so underrepresented in engineering, companies had a bidding war over her.

 

- Many bars & clubs have "Ladies' Nights" where all women get in free. There are never "Men's Nights" for men anywhere.

 

I can give many more examples of this here in the States. But if you are against variable pricing (as unfair discrimination), then you have much more fish to fry than just in China. I'm not entirely for or against it myself yet, so just saying...

Edited June 17, 2009 by vortex

[Baguakid]

Well, I for one would be interested in an unbiased review of this seminar at completion. How much time is spent with Master Wang Liping (percentage of overall seminar), the quality of the translators and the ability of the participant to clearly understand while two people are talking at the same time (Wang Liping and translator). Also, how much was learned vs how much was expected.

 

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a "vacation" event for the Laowai.

[mojavedollar]

How is this racial discrimination?

 

Per dictionary.com:

 

discrimintation

treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

 

I just used the word discrimination.

 

Chinese are one race, nationality, group, income, etc (which ever noun or adjective you want to use) with different treatment compared to foreign nationals a different race(s), nationality, etc.

 

Charging two different prices based on nationality/race sounds like discrimination to me.

 

Actually, the Chinese probably wished the US had a tiered pricing system based on average income - because then they would only pay 10% of whatever Americans pay here. Americans mainly use uniform pricing here because it actually works to their advantage 90% of the time.

 

"Jesus" certainly charges. The Bible instructs Christians to tithe 10% of their income to the Church. And what do you get in return for that? Basically the same sermon every weekend and some social networking. But certainly no Gnostic or Essenic techniques.

 

Mahayana Buddhism doesn't charge, but esoteric techniques in say, Dzogchen Buddhism, are not handed out easily or "freely." Just like how esoteric techniques in the Knights Templar or Rosicrucians aren't either.

 

And again, the USA already does have different pricing for different races - see race-based affirmative action here. Are you saying that's not discrimination?

 

Whereas the Chinese policy actually isn't race-based, it's nationality-based.

 

All this said, I don't think it's "wrong" for foreigners to complain about high prices. Ask, and thou shalt often receive! However, whether it's high or not, foreigners are nonetheless paying the same relative price as local Chinese.

 

And as far as how "fair" tiered pricing in general is, I guess it depends on how you look at it. But, it is also done here too.

- For example, a friend recently went to a hospital and was billed ~$3500. Now, someone who qualifies for some type of indigent care status would only be required to pay $100 for the same services. In essence, those who can afford it are forced to subsidize those who can't at a ratio of 35X here. In fact, that's how most insurance works. Those who can end up paying more for those who can't.

 

- Another female engineer grad recently got a ~$75K starting salary, which is about 50% above the norm. She is not particularly bright, but since women are so underrepresented in engineering, companies had a bidding war over her.

 

- Many bars & clubs have "Ladies' Nights" where all women get in free. There are never "Men's Nights" for men anywhere.

 

I can give many more examples of this here in the States. But if you are against variable pricing (as unfair discrimination), then you have much more fish to fry than just in China. I'm not entirely for or against it myself yet, so just saying...

 

Thanks for your reply. I'll just stay simple. I appreciate what they do. If they decide to charge for it, it is their choice, okay. If they have "tiered" pricing, they have the choice to do it. But with tiered pricing, just by definition it makes a distinction or a discrimination between different people. We are not talking about the end of the world but I would like to think more spiritual people wouldn't be making such distinctions or discriminations.

[h.uriahr]

Per dictionary.com:

 

discrimintation

treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

 

I just used the word discrimination.

 

Chinese are one race, nationality, group, income, etc (which ever noun or adjective you want to use) with different treatment compared to foreign nationals a different race(s), nationality, etc.

 

Charging two different prices based on nationality/race sounds like discrimination to me.

Thanks for your reply. I'll just stay simple. I appreciate what they do. If they decide to charge for it, it is their choice, okay. If they have "tiered" pricing, they have the choice to do it. But with tiered pricing, just by definition it makes a distinction or a discrimination between different people. We are not talking about the end of the world but I would like to think more spiritual people wouldn't be making such distinctions or discriminations.

It's not racial discrimination. Move there and take up residency then it'll be cheaper for you.

[YMWong]

It's not racial discrimination. Move there and take up residency then it'll be cheaper for you.

 

No, it won't

 

Different pricing in China for local and for Chinese has been employed since China's opening to the outside world in the late 70ies early 80ies. At the time, basically everything was differently priced from Hotel to local flights and the excahnge was often 1RMB = 1USD.

I think this law became obsolete in the late 80ies and was cancelled.

 

WLP's people, been a private group, have been keeping the 'tradition' alive and still charges foreigners at 1=1 exchange rate.

 

In any case, moving to China won't change the rule as you will still be a 'foreigner' even if you have rights to live in China, so you will still pay X7 or X8 the price.

So, yes, in a way it is racial discimination.

 

YM

Edited June 18, 2009 by YMWong

[matt007]

*fart*

[Prince...]

"Jesus" certainly charges. The Bible instructs Christians to tithe 10% of their income to the Church. And what do you get in return for that? Basically the same sermon every weekend and some social networking. But certainly no Gnostic or Essenic techniques.

 

 

Hey now...I gave 2 sermons last week (Monday night and Sunday morning). They did not cover the same topics at all. As for the second point, I'm hoping to take a trip to Cyprus after Seminary because the only person I know teaching "Essenic" techniques lives there. Her students in the US stopped writing back to me, so I have to go to the source.

 

Jesus certainly charged. For one, Judas carried the money box. So people were donating money to Jesus. Second, you always read Jesus stayed with this person, Jesus ate with that person. Jesus traveled from town to town teaching in the city centers and in the temples. Someone had to cover his expenses. He had over 150 followers, someone was feeding and providing shelter for his entourage.

 

Yes, he taught for free, but those day to day expenses were being covered by someone. Trust me, someone always pays.

[Baguakid]

Actually, It'a much cheaper to live in China as a Laowai IF you know how to do it. When I lived in China from 06 to 08 I was paying about 135 a month for an apartment in Shanghai but I could speak Chinese and could negotiate my price. In China when the Chinese see a laowai the price immediately gets jacked up. So you either need to be a very good negotiator or have a local buy for you. My point is if I don't need the room, I don't need the bodyguard, and I don't need the translator then why am I being charged the higher price.

[gendao]

In any case, moving to China won't change the rule as you will still be a 'foreigner' even if you have rights to live in China, so you will still pay X7 or X8 the price.

So, yes, in a way it is racial discimination.

Not sure about that.

 

As an ethnic Chinese in America, I would be paying the American rate.

And I kinda doubt a non-Chinese citizen of China would still have to pay the foreigner rate. I mean, one of WLP's own top students, Viktor Siao, is ethnically half-Russian.

 

Also, as Baguakid said, if you can negotiate like a local (in Chinese), you can often get prices like a local. Of course, they will try to get as much as they can out of you. Since the Commie system does not provide enough for them, they must HUSTLE HARD outside of the system. But it's like how an animal can smell fear or strength. If they realize you are saavy, they will give you a better deal. The hardest haggler I met in Beijing was a Spanish guy who spoke enough Chinese to drive a hard-ass bargain.

 

I do agree that it would be nice if they offered some different packages, especially for foreigners, that did not include various amenities - like translators, Taoist garb, etc. for those who don't want them. Maybe that is a suggestion you could bring up?

 

Prince... - Great points. If you don't pay, the buck typically just gets passed down to another donor somewhere who does. Anyways, would be interested to hear about any cool Essenic techniques you learn.

[YMWong]

Not sure about that.

 

As an ethnic Chinese in America, I would be paying the American rate.

And I kinda doubt a non-Chinese citizen of China would still have to pay the foreigner rate. I mean, one of WLP's own top students, Viktor Siao, is ethnically half-Russian.

 

I assure you that the policy I am talking about was a LAW, foreigners had a different price for internal flight tickets, hotel and everything. At the time foreigners were even forbidden to use 'chinese people money' and a special kind of currency had been created (waiwei quan) especially for them.

 

They always ask you to provide a valid ID Card, of the kind that only chinese citizen can have (foreigners living in China have a different card), and without that you are a foreigner and subject to the higher price.

Even been born in China does not give you citizenship, unless at least 50% of your blood is of chinese descent (and you cannot have an additional nationality).

 

YM

 

EDIT: funnily enough, a chinese living abroad and maybe making american money like any other american, would be charged chinese fees as long as he is still a chinese national.

So how would you call that ?

Edited June 18, 2009 by YMWong

[gendao]

I assure you that the policy I am talking about was a LAW, foreigners had a different price for internal flight tickets, hotel and everything. At the time foreigners were even forbidden to use 'chinese people money' and a special kind of currency had been created (waiwei quan) especially for them.

 

They always ask you to provide a valid ID Card, of the kind that only chinese citizen can have (foreigners living in China have a different card), and without that you are a foreigner and subject to the higher price.

Even been born in China does not give you citizenship, unless at least 50% of your blood is of chinese descent (and you cannot have an additional nationality).

 

YM

 

EDIT: funnily enough, a chinese living abroad and maybe making american money like any other american, would be charged chinese fees as long as he is still a chinese national.

So how would you call that ?

Interesting, well I don't know when those laws were in effect, but currently non-ethnic Chinese foreigners can apply for Chinese citizenship by naturalization under Article 7 here.

 

As far as Chinese nationals living abroad still being charged Chinese national fees - that would still be nationalism, but not racism. Since an ethnic non-national Chinese living abroad would still get the foreigner rate.

 

BTW, for those keeping score, there are also numerous financial perks to being a White "laowai" in China. I believe White models get paid like 2X-4X what the locals get (and you don't actually have to be a model to get chosen as one - as I knew a few). Also, White English teachers get hired/paid a lot more than ethnic Chinese English teachers - since they "look the part" more. This preferential treatment is actually more truly racist, but also just an unrestricted result of free market capitalism.

[Baguakid]

BTW, for those keeping score, there are also numerous financial perks to being a White "laowai" in China. I believe White models get paid like 2X-4X what the locals get (and you don't actually have to be a model to get chosen as one - as I knew a few). Also, White English teachers get hired/paid a lot more than ethnic Chinese English teachers - since they "look the part" more. This preferential treatment is actually more truly racist, but also just an unrestricted result of free market capitalism.

 

I agree with Vortex. When I was in China I taught English on the side and when I say taught I mean conversed. What they wanted was to speak to someone who's English is their first language. My students would pick out things that I said and then ask me about it. I made fairly good money for the time I taught (2 to 4 hours a week).

 

Now, regarding Chinese teachers teaching English in China, for the most part I found flaws in their grammar and word usage. In addition, I found it very difficult to find an English instruction book in Shanghai that didn't have errors. So, I think that's why the demand for Laowai English teachers is as it is. Having said that, I've met some pretty ratty English teachers in Shanghai.

[gendao]

I agree with Vortex. When I was in China I taught English on the side and when I say taught I mean conversed. What they wanted was to speak to someone who's English is their first language. My students would pick out things that I said and then ask me about it. I made fairly good money for the time I taught (2 to 4 hours a week).

 

Now, regarding Chinese teachers teaching English in China, for the most part I found flaws in their grammar and word usage. In addition, I found it very difficult to find an English instruction book in Shanghai that didn't have errors. So, I think that's why the demand for Laowai English teachers is as it is. Having said that, I've met some pretty ratty English teachers in Shanghai.

Well, I meant in comparison with overseas Chinese like myself (huayi or huaqiao) who speak perfect English as our first language (but piss-poor Chinese ).

 

We would still get hired less and for less than a White German, for example, who may not even speak good English.

 

Ironically, this bias is actually due to the fact that China is very free market capitalist. So, if some parents want spend more money just to have a White face teaching their kid, instead of necessarily the best one - then so be it. It's their money, they can spend it however they want.

[kathyli]

Master Wang Liping welcomes anyone to directly speak to him any concerns about himself and his Daoism system during his public teaching in Jinhua.

[MichelleD]

all these men seem frustrated kathyli... maybe you need to whip them into submission.... hugs

[YMWong]

Interesting, well I don't know when those laws were in effect, but currently non-ethnic Chinese foreigners can apply for Chinese citizenship by naturalization under Article 7 here.

 

LOL

Try to apply for chinese citizenship if you are not of (demostrable) chinese descent or if you are not married to a chinese and live in China and see what they reply hehe

By the way, as I said, one has to renounce to his other citizenship to obtain the chinese one - so I am afriad very few would do that to get a discount at a daoist seminar

 

In Canada for example, as well as in most european countries, one simply has to be born there to acquire citizenship, and most of these countries allows for double passport.

 

By the way I have browsed the web for references and it would seems that the law I was speaking about was cancelled on 1994. The new regulation would specifically require that 涉外价格和收费标准，要按照同质同价、优质优价的原则制定。提供同一商品或服务，不得对不同的消费者，规定不同价格和收费标准。(http://www.chinaorg.cn/zcfg/zcfg/2007-12/20/content_5154358.htm) 'prices for foreigners and service fees must follow the same-quality same-price, same-discount same-price rule. For products and services it is forbidden to have different prices or different fees for different customers" so that would make such requests outlaw.

I am not a law expert, however, so I am not sure that would apply to the case at hand

 

YM

Edited June 19, 2009 by YMWong

[orb]

Have anyone here ever been "zapped" by Wang Liping or witnessed any type of ability from him ?

 

The reason I'm asking is 'cause one of my guys (who doesn't have too much money and got a family to provide for...) saved for this seminar and I would hate him to waste all that money if the guy wasn't for real....

Any inputs would be greatly appreciated I'm trying to make sure this guy doesn't get ripped off,

but please don't just refer me to Wang's Taoist Wizard book - I hate that book...

Thanks

[boyshood]

These high prices are ridiculous prices

 

You should see this video about what traditional genuine teaching are:

 

http://www.ymaa.com/netcasts/episode3

 

That is why the teachers of Wang Liping didn't ask Wang Liping for money!!

 

Regards

[wudangspirit]

Great post! Since the average salary in bigger cities is less than 1/2 that amount per month. You'd have to save almost a whole year to afford that in China with your expenses.

 

I guess most people in the US don't understand that.

 

 

 

Ridiculous post, first of all room and board is included, secondly you seems to think Chinese participants don't have to take time off from work and buy flight/train ticket?

 

let's see some numbers:

 

US GDP = 46800

China GDP = 3300

Ratio=14.2

 

Foriegn student tuition + flight ticket +visa= ~4800 USD

Chinse student tuition + travel expenses = ~4000RMB

Ratio=8.2

 

The ratio is less than the ratio between the GDP.

 

You know if you don't want to pay then don't go, no one cares. But i need to dispel the misconception that it's cheap for a Chinese participant. No it's not, in fact, many of them also complain about the cost but they work hard to make it work. So similar burden is expected from a foreign participant, no one thought it will be cheap.

[YMWong]

Great post! Since the average salary in bigger cities is less than 1/2 that amount per month. You'd have to save almost a whole year to afford that in China with your expenses.

 

I guess most people in the US don't understand that.

 

The average salary in Beijing is not half but about the same as the seminar cost, I am sure nowadays (2009) higher than the actual cost

 

Beijing 2007 = RMB 39,867/year

http://www.bjld.gov.cn/dzzw/xxcx/pjgz/

 

And by the way, most (if not all) chinese people make extra-income more or less (usually less) regular no matter what work/position they do (except those in the countryside working in the fields) so statistics have to be taken as a very low standard while actual income is usually higher.

Moreover, family income has to be doubled since husband and wife both works usually.

 

YM

[enouch]

Have anyone here ever been "zapped" by Wang Liping or witnessed any type of ability from him ?

 

The reason I'm asking is 'cause one of my guys (who doesn't have too much money and got a family to provide for...) saved for this seminar and I would hate him to waste all that money if the guy wasn't for real....

Any inputs would be greatly appreciated I'm trying to make sure this guy doesn't get ripped off,

but please don't just refer me to Wang's Taoist Wizard book - I hate that book...

Thanks

 

 

 

 

If you just want phenomena, go take seminars by Robert Peng he bestows empowerments and gives intermediate teachings liberally.Check out his website. Also email Sean Denty he's studied with him-personally.Maybe p.m. Ken see if you can get a direct answer on that.Our directly p/m. Kathy Li, she's made mention of telepathy.Several other members here have studied with Liping.Bruce Lee use to find the second or third man from the top and learn from that person. Most likely that person wouldn't make him kowtow for years and years, thus accelerating the process.Then, when visiting the master you'll be farther along than a newbee.Interestingly, both Bruce Lee and Michael Jordan called it taking the elevator while other are taking the stairs.

[gendao]

LOL

Try to apply for chinese citizenship if you are not of (demostrable) chinese descent or if you are not married to a chinese and live in China and see what they reply hehe

By the way, as I said, one has to renounce to his other citizenship to obtain the chinese one - so I am afriad very few would do that to get a discount at a daoist seminar

True, but until perhaps only rarely & very recently, most people have been trying to ESCAPE Red China, not become an actual CITIZEN of it. So, no one has really complained, lol. Most longterm ex-pats just settle for "permanent resident" status.

 

Also, while they technically don't honor dual citizenship, they don't really check, either.

 

That's the other thing about Chinese law. Sure, they retain the power to exercise it when desired, but generally their enforcement is pretty lax. There's just too many people and not enough bureacrats.

 

 

 

Anyhow, all of this pales in comparison to historical US policy towards ethnic Chinese. The Chinese Exclusion Act severely banned, restricted and relinquished rights for Chinese immigrants for a stunning 61 years from 1882-1943.

coming of Chinese laborers to the Untied States be, . . . suspended; and during such suspension it shall not be lawful for any Chinese laborer to come, or, having so come after the expiration of said ninety days, to remain within the United States.

Although heavy nationalist caps were still left in place:

1952 Immigration and Nationality Act eliminated race as a bar to immigration or citizenship. Japan's quota was set at 185 annually. China's stayed at 105; other Asian countries were given 100 a piece. Northern and western Europe's quota was placed at 85% of all immigrants.

This pittance only gradually relaxed over the following decades.

During the 1950s, thousands of Chinese citizens from Taiwan came to the United States to study at American universities. Studying in America was one thing, staying here was another. Chinese nationals could stay in America only if they were employed after graduation - if they failed to find work, they had to remain in school. Many Chinese nationals found the resources to become professional students in the States.

 

Finally in 1965, Chinese immigration was changed to be on an equal basis with all other countries of the world. The American government established an annual quota that enabled 20,000 Chinese to receive U.S. citizenship. Thousands who had been in the U.S. for ten or more years applied for permanent residency. The Chinese who were granted permanent residency applied for nationality.

Interestingly, Bruce Lee was fortunate to have arrived in the US in 1959. Had he tried just 7 years before that, he probably would have been barred outright.

 

So, I think as the Chinese economy continues to grow amidst a sinking global ship, more foreigners will seek to ex-pat to China and their immigration laws will continue to relax as well. Just like the US did over the course of a century.

 

 

 

BTW, if people really wanted to learn LMP affordably, I don't know why they didn't just attend Kathy Li's workshop. I mean, that was about as affordable as it gets. And, I don't think there is any reason to study with the "top master" upfront, anyways. That's like trying to learn calculus before you can even do basic math.

Edited June 19, 2009 by vortex

[Baguakid]

BTW, if people really wanted to learn LMP affordably, I don't know why they didn't just attend Kathy Li's workshop. I mean, that was about as affordable as it gets. And, I don't think there is any reason to study with the "top master" upfront, anyways. That's like trying to learn calculus before you can even do basic math.

 

Again, I agree with vortex.. I would have loved to go to this seminar but unfortunately the notice time was short so I didn't have enough time to prepare.

 

If Kathy has another one with ample notice I would be interested in going.

[YMWong]

True, but until perhaps only rarely & very recently, most people have been trying to ESCAPE Red China, not become an actual CITIZEN of it. So, no one has really complained, lol. Most longterm ex-pats just settle for "permanent resident" status.

 

Also, while they technically don't honor dual citizenship, they don't really check, either.

 

Of course, but since we are talking about foreigners getting chinese citizenship (foreigners getting the local's fees) this doesn't work because to apply you have to show proof or cancellation of your original citizenship.

 

BTW, if people really wanted to learn LMP affordably, I don't know why they didn't just attend Kathy Li's workshop. I mean, that was about as affordable as it gets. And, I don't think there is any reason to study with the "top master" upfront, anyways. That's like trying to learn calculus before you can even do basic math.

 

Sure, I guess Miss Li is actually way more than enough for everybody !

And by the way, while a was quoting the law I personally am of the opinion that WLP and his group (just like anybody else) should be free of charging anything they feel fit.

After all, even if the law prohibits to charge differently the locals and the foreigners I don't think it simply makes it mandatory to accept all students simply because they apply for a seminar no ?

 

 

YM