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The subforum is currently in Beta and is now open. Please use responsibly! Feel free to offer suggestions. Everything is open to discussion.

Probably, but it may be hard to find. Even neigong the real deal is something that is mostly taught in private, one on one, for all kinds of reasons. E.g. "pearls before the swine" is avoided, "teacher tell all, go hungry" is another consideration, persecution of taoists that repeated many times throughout history (communists didn't invent it, emperors did long before them) and what not. The culture has always been big on "family secrets," "secret skills," "secret manuals," "secret formulas,' "secret transmissions" and so on, from neidan to porcelain to herbal formulas to martial styles, it was more common than not to not tell everything, and often tell nothing outside the family or school. This is not just history, this is also true in our time. Even though a lot of Chinese movies and Jin Yong's novels are centered around the pursuit of such secrets , all of it has a real-life cultural counterpart. If the private forum materializes, I might tell a story or two... can't share in a public space, so for now they are secret.

I know what you think, I wasn’t asking you.

The CPC is known to have insisted on the "out with the old, in with the new" approach most decisively for decades. Traditional arts and sciences were condemned, taoist temples burned to the ground, practitioners publicly humiliated, sent to "reeducation camps" and so on. The legacy lingers -- although later they took a somewhat different stance and the pendulum started moving toward "restoration." They realized that all those things they used to condemn can be turned into tourist attractions and marketable trinkets. So it's not unusual to encounter views in people influenced by this sort of education that glorify things traditional at the cost of the tradition itself, by reformulating it in "modern" quasi-scientific terms. Instead of forbidding all things cultivation they try to give them Western style respectability. This is a very simplified picture of course...

Nope, the idea was not an elitist club, anymore than a tennis club that wants its members to be tennis players rather than football players bent on preaching to them about the correct shape of the ball they should be playing with. Or a football club that tries to stop tennis players from running around the field swinging their racquets at the goalkeeper. TBH that idea was born out of sheer frustration... a pipe dream... something along the lines of that tree house rule:

Google yields even more reliable results if you put site:thedaobums.com in your query. It's a great tip to know as of course works with any other domain name. On a similar note, i noticed when viewing a user's content history (either via the newspaper icon on profile, or the 🔍Find Content popup) it only goes back a few months. To get the full list you just have to click Posts on left side of the window, or from the Content Type drop-down if using a small window.

I read the title of this thread as ‘Saving Private Neidan’ on first take made me laugh.

From Lama Dawai Gocha: I suggest asking for a pointing out in a live session to see Awareness for yourself.

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I think ChiDragon has a future in US politics...

* Mod Note: Xing/Dharmakaya Daoist-Buddhist Discussion Split off here:*

22 pages in finally a good neidan related topic Buddhism (and especially mahayana - vajrayana) shares quite a bit of similarity with original daoism but neidan is a different method with different goals that happens to overlap in a few places (I am both a practicioner of vajrayana and neidan) Dzogchen is strangely used as a xing method by a few different lineages though, with exact descriptions of the crystal kati channel The golden elixir is your true nature yes but its simultaneously a real energetic - physical substance with specific instructions, not something to be found pre-existing as in vajrayana (primordial purity)

My teacher from way back had a ‘family book’ which he occasionally mentioned but was cagey about what was actually in it. It seemed it included some Feng Shui apart from other stuff. He was also something of a Sino- supremicist and a bit sneery about anything western (including toast for some reason). Yes he was a toastist.

Yes. And I also think people can ask questions/clarifications. Sorry, I should have stated that people should cite a teacher, a school, OR a text, allowing people some range of anonymity if they choose. For example, a person may be a part of school that rejects generally accepted neidan texts and relies on the internal texts or interpretations of that school. Others may have a teacher that generally disagrees with the various schools and texts. Others may be a part of a traditional lineage but choose to rely on statements in texts and commentaries. Of course, a lot of it will not be fully well defined and I imagine we can create rules and other things as the issue arises. It seems to me that there are at least a group here that generally agrees on what neidan is even if they disagree which schools/approaches are authentic. But yes, the fundamental problem is excluding off topic, made up, AI, DIY neidan, etc. I'm sure not everyone will like or be happy with it, but I think it's worth experimenting with it since there are few Daoist themed sites.

Quick comment: Completly blank on this subject, but based on a quick google search, it sounds fascinating. I would not participate, other than perhaps an occasional question for clarification, but I’d love to read and learn. In favour!

Hi! That is not true from what i have been taught. While there are some Neidan texts that suggest that golden elixir is the true nature others dont. What one has to understand is that neidan texts are alchemical texts meaning they are mostly useless without lineage or divine inspiration (very rare). In the same way one cannot make the external elixir (the philosophers stone) from reading texts about it one cannot get anywhere or understand much when reading alchemical texts without teacher and direct experience. The golden elixir reveals!!! ... the true nature in a deeply embodied way because it is the merging of xing and ming.....meaning the deepest form of inner division is neutralized .... xing = preheaven yin, ming = preheaven yang. Ancient neidan does not talk about returning to the Dao but about repairing it within the bodymind (through the merging of xing and ming). At the same time the golden elixir makes one earth immortal which means the physical body lasts for a really long time. Much here appreciated freeform had known a living immortal master (they appear not only in daoism but also in Tamil siddha tradition or the wizzars tradition of Burmese).

Hi @ChiDragon, I have a genuine question for you. I don't mean any disrespect but your answer will help me understand your positions related to neidan. I believe you've posted here that you have studied taijiquan with a teacher at some point. My questions is, have you ever studied neidan or other forms of neigong (other than taijiquan) with a teacher? If so, can you share what system or lineage? I'm trying to understand where the "original Taoist method of Neidan" is coming from. Thank you

I don´t have a neidan teacher or lineage but am happy to sit on the sidelines. If such a forum facilitates useful communication among dedicated practitioners, surely that´s a good thing. Importantly, I would still be able to read the forum posts. (At least I think so?) Such reading might prove very educational. If I want to join the tennis team, I´ll have a better idea what tennis requires and how I might get lessons. Nothing would be closed to me.

A bit of googling revealed that it is quite common to reduce Neidan to a kind of biochemical health system. How weird … is this the CPC approved strategy?

Recently the site is operating smoothly, but don't know for how long. Last time when the search function was used the system slowed down. So if we all use Google to search, it would alleviate the system's load.

You will still have the secrecy problem, as members will often not want to state where they belong to. Every teacher has a right to be left alone. Something that could help, would be an obligatory entry for a poster, containing : stating what in their opinion is the subject and the goal of the practice (premise), then define the basic ingredients (framework, reference, contents), name the old chinese characters and their English translations thereof. Then who wishes may be able to ‘re-translate’ the meaning, e.g.according to XYZ 命 [= Ming, means 1. breathwork only in the context of CDE 2. grilling the fish that has a wanting to go upstream, in the context of old daoist fables] Might be long and wary, but so at least one has a chance at understanding each other (tower of babel problem) and words are not empty vessels or carry an unintended message downstream. Else someone might unintentionally pass something like ‘severe punishment’ in the wording of ‘unconditional love’ and tries to connect it to e.g. 靈. No way to guarantee a beneficial meaning, but at least for the reader it becomes more obvious, what in the minds eye of someone is going on, (e.g. it is ND according to CD, so to me it’s ChiDragoning, not Neidan in the thus-thus school, or the like, no offence…, CD!) Thus like minded people could easier connect and also students with teachers. If both want to and see potential.

Just can't understand why hide neidan content from general public/unregistered users. It's not like TDB is flooded with posts on neidan anyway. Also, there already exists a Taoist Texts subforum and the activity there is not huge. Making an elitist club out of neidan? Says something about TDB...

May I see the MWD version?

I will conclude the answer to my question is no, you have not studied neidan with a teacher. Thank you for sharing your personal conclusions on neidan, all perspectives have value to me.

Various scriptures have different origins . Avestas - Various oral traditions / 'hymns' that evolved through centuries that were later written down and standardized much later which was a small percentage of a much larger earlier collection . Judaism - adopted several different cultural stories ( from Canaanite , Zoroastrian and Babylonian sources ) and wrote a 'religious history ' lifted from Assyrians ( eg old 'United Kingdom' , Solomon and his 'empire ' ) , 'found ' a scared Book of Law ( Torah ) and wrote up a back story , attempting to take over the northern kingdom of Israel ( Josiah ) and eventually moved into some historical documentation of themselves after that . Christianity - 1/2 their scripture borrowed from the above and the other half are gospels , which are highly suspect and full of all sorts of other ideas and politics of the time . Islam - where do I start ? Actually ; pass . - aside from that , a few times I have shared my ideas about origins and spread of religions ..... post ice age , ie . human accrued experience, not divine revelation . - the further we go back the moire we attribute to as 'gifts from God/s ' . However to explore you question in the affirmative , look at 'progressive revelation ( eg within a religion ; that would be 'Christian progressive revelation ' ) or perhaps more in answer to your question , overall including all religions and times and peoples , ( see Baha'i progressive revelation concept ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Baháʼí) .

Zouwang has something of the dzogchen about it.

笨丹

Yeah, how many girlfriends you have got for last few months?

Relative teachings DO often have secondary effects that make it more comfortable to be a person in the world, I agree. Meditation, for example (where there is allowing stillness to well up in experience) will absolutely make a person calmer, and less reactive, as well as slowly infusing everyday life with a simple joy, over time where it is done as a daily practice. Having said that, these non-dual teachings aren't really intended to encourage you to get lost in siddhis, they point a MUCH larger shift in understanding that has much greater value.

Who knows, half the lineages say the original method was lost except for their patriarch who rediscovered it, the other half say they teach the original method still and the others are mistaken Its an interesting topic though, would be good discussion for the neidan subforum

Yes but each tradition on a practical level differs. To arrive at destination B can done driving a Ferrari or a Toyota. I think each tradition has something to offer. For example some Daoist practices can be studied by scientists to reverse aging. Dzogchen practices to study the brain or tension in the body. It could be the effect could be mimicked by a sound device etc etc. Who knows really.

Don't forget the nirmanakaya! The concept is akin to the Holy Trinity or Sat Chit Ananda. While there are three "qualities" listed, what they constitute does not really exist as a set of separate things, only a way of thinking or discussing about how it might appear to be. Ultimately sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya both arise in, and have never been separate from, the dharmakaya, the empty field of arising and passing phenomena and therefore have no real existence of their own. Maybe I already knew what they were, or maybe I looked it up... how would you know? In the end, it isn't important. These exist as a relative concept, a teaching tool for trying to understand the ineffable. It doesn't really constitute the kind of gnowledge that actually matters. The knowledge that is ultimately important... is ultimately transformative, is realization of the Dao/Emptiness/Nature of mind/Enlightenment. A better question, in my opinion, would be: Can you see unlabeled arising and passing phenomena of the Dao/Enlightenment in this moment in the body/field of the dharmakaya? Ultimately Buddhism, Daoism, etc., etc. are only conceptual windows into something that HAS no separateness to discuss.

Thank. Does pure original Neidan even exist?

Very beautifull words, thank you

@Sanity Check Didn't understand your cryptic statement -- are you sure you meant it for me? I am not an admin/mod who can do or not do it, and I've no clue which "basic facts" you're referring to that I "can't get straight." ???

I propose you to read daoist texts before starting new thread on Neidan First read, investigate then teach other people

Your vote will be counted but

Please no

It's ok in 2025 to confuse everything. One time in China someone approached me and asked me if i was an artist ? I said yes, i'm a martial artist. It solved the confusion immediately 😁

if u mean this: 气 + 米 —> 氣 air + rice —> qi oxygen + food —> energy this is post-heaven qi, nothing to do with Neidan

Of course not, I have said enough in the other thread already. Nothing would be new to me anymore.

Haha, no problem. Nothing new to me. I am used to that. It seems doesn't matter what someone says with some thing to them. There is always a contradiction. No one knows who is right or not. It seems to me that the first thing that comes first is always right. Sadly, there is no room for update and correction. I don't know if I am lucky to hear members tell me "no", that was not it. But never present verbal contents to amuse me. Do you think members have some of the things they said to me I could swallow? I might do the same as the rest of us. Either they more than I do or vice versa. I wouldn't brag about it or be sarcastic about it with verbal insults. Peace.

Kamma is the cause and effects of actions and intentions. The dhamma is the nature of existence, and also is refered to as the Buddha's teachings.

You are probally aware of this, but I figure it doesnt hurt bringing it up. When I search for threads, it simply doesnt work. A work around Ive found is to google some key words + daobums.

You always transform words into a period mark bearly visible, this is a powerful symbol to me.

Yes, basically, that is what it is. Neigong is like standing at a Zhan Zhuang position with breathing. Qigong may be practiced by sitting or laying down with breathing. Another way for Qigong is practiced with physical movement and breathing. The good examples for Qigong are Taiji, Xing Yi, Bagua and etc. However, the only requirement is to practice slow to moderate speed. The goal is to reach the realm of abdominal or LDT breathing. Hereinafter, the LTD breathing should become the normal breathing habit at all times, besides during the practice. The constant of the abdominal breathing is like given one to practice Qigong all the time. Hence, it is not limited to be practiced at one time nor one place but all the time. Do you know how effective that could be making your body health and strong. That the power of practicing Qigong and Neigon. Now let's look at the method of Neidan. It was practiced by sitting at zazen position with LDT breathing. It has the same purpose of reaching the goal as in Qigong, Neigong. Finally, we have the Neigong practice is by standing, Neidan is by sitting and Qigong is by moving. Now I think I have a better understanding of each method. Before, I wasn't as clear as today. I am glad that I have initiated the OP.

Temporarily

Many Moons ago ... I was in a Wiccan coven , we had three fire horses in it ; one was an Aries and the other two a Leo and a Sagg It was a fun group . I made good friends with the Aries fire horse ... wow , just walking down the street with her ! - I'll tell just one story about her ; we had a pervy guy here that really annoyed everyone , any new woman that turned up he immediately 'went after ' ... he was also naturally 'urksome' so was not having much success . So my fire horse friend is visiting, he immediately starts hanging around . We go down to the river and a few people are there , we had a small sweat lodge by the river then and someone had been using it, the fire was still going . My friend was ''Oh cool ! A sweat lodge .'' strips naked and goes in . Pervy guy jumps up '' I will have a sweat too ! and drops his swimming shorts and goes in . After a few minutes he comes rushing out looking totally freaked out and doing this little hurried jog like a little boy rushing to the toilet holding his hands over and shielding his 'Pee-pee' , he grabbed his shorts and took off . Then my friend came out smiling . I asked her what she did to him ... but she would never tell me .

TMH (@thememoryhole): "Viktor Frankl on the Importance of Overestimating People"