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Happy shortest day everyone!

Putting into question the existence of Chi and the Dao on a mainly daoist forum in a topic about the practice of neidan...... I'll leave it at that...

I practiced Aikido for years because I wanted to learn about ki. I would say nearly everyone I practiced with, including teachers, did not believe ki was real, but at best a kind of metaphor. I practiced qi gong/tai chi also for years and while the teachers did teach qi as real, most of the (western) pupils also did not really believe in it. I was kind of lucky because before that I had practiced meditation for years (mostly unguided and self taught) but qi sensitivity developed naturally without any real technical effort. I can quite see how someone could practice for a long time just physically and never recognise qi. It would be natural in this case to conclude that it doesn't exist. The odd thing is, it is quite easy and natural to get qi sensitivity (I don't mean dramatic powers just the awareness of it in the body) - I think most people would get it if pointed in the right direction. But I am not sure how common it is.

I just can’t imagine practicing qigong or tai chi for decades and not ever feeling qi. Surely the thought that there might be something wrong with whatever you are practicing must have occurred once.

I will call you Dragon from now on

Or more accurately, Tao made up the existence of Laotze

Just because something is invisible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's been mathematically "proven" that so-called dark matter exists (mass-carrying particles who are incapable of interacting with any known form of light wave or particle) and comprises an even larger percent of the observable universe than visible matter. This is not to say that qi necessarily is a form of dark matter, btw. What's more is that other than its resultant distortions in gravitational fields, there has been zero confirmed experimental evidence of what dark matter itself is made of, despite large and expensive detection apparatus. For better or worse there's a real possibility that such a thing does not actually exist at all, and we have simply been misunderstanding gravity the whole time. Wouldn't that be a major upset!

Interesting how many people here and daoist masters of the Past would agree with your statements? Or you do not care? Then

Thus this site must be renamed to thefakedaobums.com

Thank you so much, it echoes to something in my own experience. When we can find some kind of 'resonance ' and start to share something with the nature and other living beings around, all these differences start to fade away. When this something lies in a field outside of our human capacities to concieve, the biggest hindrance to enjoy the very real feeling seems always to be our incapacity to say 'i don't know '.

I do care about them. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here wasting my time telling them something. Just hopefully I will catch somebody's eyes to broadened the vision. Also, I wish someone is wise enough at least to listen or digest something that might be new to them. I bet none of the Taoist master can tell how our functional body works. Besides, just telling some mysterious chi from thin air flowing in the body. PS I might mention something for the interest of the argument. My wife has some illnesses that the western medicine couldn't help her cure. My brother-in-law introduced a person who practiced eastern and western medicines. He know something about mitochondria by reading online, he did not go into it as deep as I am. One thing for sure that he told me, all herbal practitioners in China must practice Taiji and Qigong. BTW His wife is a acupuncturist too. I must admit that he is a very very good doctor. He cured some of the illnesses for my wife. Sorry to say, about three years later, he die. Another story. My brother-in-law financially supported a herbalist opened a clinic. The clinic was opened only about three years. The herbalist quiet and went to northern part of California to meditate and write a book about Qigong. Unfortunately, I heard that he die after little more than a year before he finished his book.

I agree there is no difference at the core. There are meaningful differences on the way there, such as in language construction and conceptualization, not to mention cultural context. At least that’s been my experience. This is one reason why it’s so helpful to have friends who are native speakers when learning the language.

Normally when possums are asleep ( on the shelf above my bed ) they tuck their legs under , head in and appear like a furry ball . When its hot though ... everything is reversed

I largely agree with his point that fascia needs to soften and adapt, but I don’t think that means beginners shouldn’t stand. Standing was actually a foundational pillar of my practice for the first several years. It helped reduce sensory “noise” and refined interoception, building awareness and sensitivity in the body. However, later I did stop standing for 8 years for exactly the reasons that he is outlining in the video. I realised that the fascia in my shoulders and upper back was stopping the possibility of full release of the shoulders, and that standing wasn't sufficient to remodel that fascia. So I stepped away from standing to focus all my training time on silk reeling and form work, that was capable of doing the corrective remodelling of the fascia that I needed. Even so, I continue to feel that early standing practice is highly valuable for laying the groundwork for deeper, long-term development. I actually wrote an article on exactly this topic, if anyone is interested: https://www.taijiquan.quest/post/the-changing-role-of-stillness-when-zhan-zhuang-insufficient

So with this very limited experience we are expected to trust what you say about neidan?

If you are really interested how I feel about Chi. I can only feel the tremendous energy in my muscles. The Taiji practitioners are considered that as Jin(勁).

In Aikido (kanji 合気道) the 合 represents a pot and lid above it that fits nicely i.e. not too much steam, just the right amount of qi.

and?

Thank you very much. If you have ever found Chi, please put it back on top of my head.

@ChiDragon , this speech given in 1922 may inspire you: http://www.millionbook.com/mj/l/liangqichao/000/055.htm

哪裡哪裡, i sincerly enjoy the discussion and learn a lot from it.

Alright, if you care how would you translate and understand this one here: 古圣有言曰命由性修 性由命立 命者炁也性者神也炁 则本不离神神则有时 离炁 and this 炁则本不离神 ?

Laotze didn’t make up the existence of Tao. He gave his commentary on the nature of Tao.

Holy crap I'll read up on that! I just bumped an old thread so as not to clutter this one if anything turns out

This theory doesn't work. Once they found an answer, there could have been even more funding, to find out how it works, how to harness it, how to heal, how to put into electric cars, AI and robots..... As to your post about substantial increase in health, it is commonly observed that a healthy person would encounter less result from QG or cultivation e.g. a young person. While a sick or old or both person could see a more substantial improvement. This seems strange. You say you have been healthy all along, right? Another explanation could be some of the QG, breathing exercises have a stimulating effect but they also use up your reserve fast. It is ok for a young and vital person who replenish easily. Cultivators could feel full of energies, pinkish face and skin, sleep very little and yet full of drive, strong voice. Old books say it is burning your Jing/essence, your body is emptied with internal fire raging on uncontrolled. Just be careful.

Thank you for making that last point. Just because we had to invent the idea of dark matter to account for observations that our present theoretical framework cannot explain, does not mean dark matter actually exists. it may simply be that our theoretical framework is missing something important. That said there is some recent evidence that may further strengthen the idea of the existence of dark matter. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/11/251129053349.htm

IMO, an accurate definition of Qi is certainly not the English word energy, particularly as that word is loosely used in non-scientific contexts. Qi is far more fundamental and relational/contextual than what is meant by the English word energy, even ATP related energy, and IMO the idea of storing, building, and blocking Qi, even the idea of feeling Qi can be very misleading, even an obstacle. My Daoist teacher, who was Chinese, was just like you describe - not overly concerned with things like translations and definitions of words and concepts. For him, any time we spent reading and studying concepts was wasted time we could have devoted to experiential practice. What makes you say "nobody is familiar with" ATP energy? It is a very basic concept in biochemistry and I suspect many of us here are quite familiar with it. There was a time that I had it memorized down to each chemical formula but I let that go about 40 years ago. While I do understand and appreciate your point related to the important association between "ATP energy" and Qi, I would disagree with defining Qi solely as energy, even that generated through the TCA cycle. I think that is too reductive and does not account for the many different contextual associations with 氣 or 炁 both in neidan and more general usage.

Yeah, I think we’re largely on the same page 🙂 Starting with wuji makes a lot of sense, and I agree that a couple of weeks of consistent standing is a very small investment in the context of a lifetime of practice. It definitely cultivates qualities you want early on. I'm a big fan of standing, and I think ultimately people should follow their own body, interest and instinct. If someone feels drawn to standing, then that probably means they will get value from it. And thank you for the kind words, I appreciate that. It’s always good to exchange perspectives with people who are clearly putting real time and thought into their practice.

I was simply quoting Cobie. My agreement referred to my experience that as we get deeper and closer to what it means to be human, the fewer differences we are likely to find among ourselves. This can be seen on multiple levels - physical, emotional, psychological, energetic, metaphysical, etc...

Oxygen

That's fine but this is qigong work + fitness/calisthenics. It helps to some degree too but can't resolve main issues in human being

That's cool! So, let's it be.

I think attributing Chi to oxygen and ATP don't make too much sense. China side so many scientists and patriots have been fervently trying to find out the secret of Chi for many many years. But they have no conclusive result yet. Don't these highly qualified people never think of simplistic stuff like oxygen and ATP?

It is because I know they will repeat something that I heard already. Also, the information is all available online.

Well, what about 醫家不知有此 ? This is from 奇經八脈考

Yes, the more the sphere of knowlege increases in volume, the more its contact surfaces with the unknown extends. 99% of the interpretations of 道德經 are very vague and misleading because they come out from untrained body/mind systems.

I see your point about foundational work, but in my experience, energy work and fascia remodeling are inseparable. Without engaging the body in this way, energy work alone doesn’t seem to lead to real refinement or skill, at least, that’s been my pesonal experience. For somebody with very neutral architecture and very low Biomechancial Debt, pehaps they can work more directly with energy and it will be easy to "warm the clay", but unfortunately most modern people who start practice as adults would benefit from significant corrective fasical remodeling to move towards an integrated bodymind; their clay is very stiff and resistant to warming.

I think his point was more that Zhan Zhuang should be done after some foundational energy-body work is complete which would "warm the clay" so to speak... I just wanna circle back to previous conversations in this topic about the wuji stance. A systems wuji stance should allow plenty of foundational work to be done. Seems like most here talk about it from a martial arts point of view, from a neigong point of view. You'd want the wuji stance in your system to allow working on the early stages of the neidan practice. Since it would allow such work, there'd be no reason to rush to other practices until the start of a foundation has been made.

I suppose , as time goes on, we will be seeing more of this .

I have a blog on Chen Taijiquan, my attempt to map the territory in a pragmatic and non-mystical way: https://www.taijiquan.quest

It'd be better to get initiated.

In today's world; discerning what is real or isn't, even concerning Santa is problematic,,,

To get a complete comprehension of the Tao Te Ching should not be by preference. It requires an open mind with wisdom, intelligence and good judgment.

Chinese Massage Manual: A Comprehensive, Step by Step Introduction to the Healing Art of Tui Na by Sarah Pritchard Very good book

Another kind of leftover (not being serious): East: Associated to Wood, very good at networking (Wood wide web they said). West: Associated to Metal, very good at cutting into pieces. So, if you have an issue with your gall blader in western medecine they cut it off, in eastern medecine they try to return the whole organism to a state of balance to support the self-healing process of the sick part. Two different visions about life, values and the world (三觀). Is it possible to read analog signals with a digital device ? If we think about chinese caracters as some kind of 'ancestral holographic recordings', then we need the proper device to extract and render the multi-dimensional meanings, like in the movie 'Arrival' (2016).

Yes, it is very true that the Chinese really don't care. I had been asking many fellow men. My answer from them was that "chi is chi" with a smile. They do not give a final answer. However, an English speaker would demand an answer. So, a Chinese would say "it is "energy." I was told by a TCM herbalist, chi could be meant it is the function of an organ as an esoteric meaning in TCM. When they say "the chi of an organ was blocked". It was actually meant "the organ is malfunction." Somehow, the translation came across the west ended up "the energy of the organ was blocked." If we think about it, If chi is so mighty, how can it be blocked so easily with anything. Does that make any sense to you? Unfortunately, I could not accept this blockage logic. Could anyone of you?

“Step 2: Seek Qualified Lineage Teacher” This was good advice tho

Using AI to get any reliable information whatsoever is foolish. At best you'll just have a bunch of random sources you now have to go read through, hoping they are of decent quality. Qi gong is a modern term while neidan is a much older term. Any true qi gong ("true" as in, effective at internal change) is based on the principles of the Yi Jin Jing. I wouldn't consider neidan to be covered by the modern qi gong term. Nei gong could probably be put as a subcategory or part of qi gong, but that still wouldn't make neidan the same as any qi gong. Neidan is mainly a meditative, seated or standing, internal practice. Nei gong would usually include movements and such to guide internal energy. Also thinking AI will provide better translations than a professional human translator is ridiculous. At best it'll provide a mixture of modern and old professional translations of the work it's attempting to translate. At worst it'll drop in all kinds of random stuff from a whole host of mixed sources with a high variation in quality. Also would not actually support the people that worked hard on making a high quality translation of a work. As for the practice of neidan, i'll leave that commentary to the more senior members here. We should at least be able to somewhat agree on the meaning of the terms used, before any constructive conversation or debate can be had. Hopefully this post have managed to do so.

It’s Armenian, Got no cream in, It’s the coffee got you dreamin’ It’s a fact, No coffee’s like that, This side of Mount Ararat, It’s hot In the pot what we got Drink it, drink it a lot. (modest coffee rap)