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Substance literally means what stands under ... so for instance the substance of a table might be wood. So the wood is more 'basic' or underlying in the sense that if there were no wood there would be no table (provided it is a wooden one). In the case of internal alchemy the substance(s) are what lies behind appearance. The deeper you go the more 'real' you get ... in the sense of being without dependence on anything beneath. I think the question 'is the MCO real' is the wrong one. It would be better to ask 'does it work?' or 'what does it do?' or perhaps 'how do you make it work' but this question gives rise to the general question 'can you make it work or does it just happen'. Most if not all energy exercises/techniques or practices simply replicate intentionally things that happen naturally. So a certain breathing practice if done with conscious will simply replicates something that would arise naturally if the circumstances arise. For instance vase breathing, abdominal breathing, embryonic breathing and so on are all like this (in my experience). I would put the MCO in the same category. The danger in practicing without first achieving deep meditational states is that you replace the genuine cycling of energy with an imagined substitute which does not and cannot hit the spot so to speak. But equally you have to gain some familiarity with the subtle body and its workings in order to progress and so as you absorb intellectually the principles of the working of the subtle body this in itself stimulates it into action.

We still are tribal, animalistic to a degree, maybe in a 100,000 years it will be ironed out, who knows? We can work on ourselves and stop contributing to violence and teach the new generation better ways but yes, we still live in a violent world.

Btw, the Bhagavad Gita is plumb full of violence which imo it try's to justify with high sounding rationalization. And for many millions it is scripture but it is not really 'Sruti' which in Hinduism refers to a class of sacred texts, such as the Vedas and Upanishads, considered to be divinely revealed. Bringing that up would be sure to at least (or worse) upset millions who have invested in it.

Once again, a big thanks to all of you. Met him today, and I do suspect that the well wishes of the wizard bums made a difference in him, truly.

People either have experienced the subtle body or they haven't. If you have first hand experience of it, it is undeniable. If you haven't, it sounds inconceivable because it conflicts with the teachings of modern scientific materialism (which is actually based on incomplete Newtonian physics and is on its way out). It is sort of like trying to explain color to someone who has never seen any.

Hi everyone! Been practicing Qi Gong on and off for a little over 5 years but first came across it more than 13 years ago via books - very excited to learn from this forum and connect with like-minded individuals

MCO stands for Microcosmic orbit(小周天) and Macrocosmic orbit(大周天). If it is not a breathing exercise, then, there would be no such thing as MCO. It would be a myth to think that moving substances through the Du and the Ren meridians. However, the old concept of MCO was only a legendary concept was passed down from century to century. The same old story was always repeated with no proof. There are no living reference. It was only told by the word of mouth. The story comes out differently each time depends on who told it. I had challenged these ideas about MCO on a Chinese Qigong site. So far, no one has taken the challenge with contradiction but just took it silently. I will go find my post and place it here with translation.

The quote from Mathew is about when you can not fight back with anything but your ability to stay centered and say ' Is that all you got ? No matter what you do , my spirit still stands strong' . * The quote from Luke is about when you can fight back and cause change . Life is varied .... and sometimes we need to 'adapt our philosophy' according to circumstances . * Husayn Ali was banished and imprisoned for his beliefs . But he took the ' Matthew approach and that caused people to become curious, admire and eventually follow him . So the authorities would send him somewhere else ; the same would happen there . Even in jails , they would have to move him as the guards started to be effected by him . Eventually he became the leader and founder / prophet of a new world religion .... the Bahai's . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baháʼu'lláh# Previous to this their forerunners , the Babi's took the 'Luke approach ' ... they were crushed by the Muslim forces . .

This is the most poignant to me. The truth is always present, right under our noses, yet we don't see it because we are looking for the wrong things.

Just going to pull-quote this one: This is now you see what is "real". It's going in my file of quotes. _/\_

It depends on the systems. Some can be practiced with others, some can’t.

I would disagree with that. Yes. And that kind of qi is not what the MCO is about (see next comment). Again, not what the MCO within the context of neidan is about. My opinion (I might be biased and totally wrong here) is that the qigong/neigong varieties often are contrieved methods. My opinion is based on the method I practice, where most of the energetic movements and other sensations arise as a result of proper practice.

It’s a good idea to keep coming back to this

Cant say Welcome to 666. Why not 999?

I never had real eyesight problems and have never worn glasses. I have spent absurd amount of time on reading from phone or working with pc. I would attribute this to my knowledge of qigong/meditation. Quite early I have learned to manipulate my energy, to sense my eye channels. I can even sense if I eat some food and it starts to clog and weaken my eyes. Usually such an effect comes from processed food and seed oils. On other hand, some spices, vegetables and berries, seem to strengthen eyes. One or two times I have felt my vision worsen after an extremely high load on them, I have been able to quickly recover it. The vision worsens due to strain in the eye muscle along with poor nutrition and tiredness. When a person starts wearing glasses they essentially give up, and their eyesight problem locks in and will start degenerating. Anyway, if you want to fix your eyesight there are 4 things you have to do. 1. Clean your diet, if your diet clogs eyes there is no chance. 2. Practice relaxation exercise called Palming and visualize black color. 3. Do eye exercises 3 times a day and stop wearing glasses. (the second can be a problem, if it is a developed story and you cannot function without glasses) 4. Work with eye channels using internal energy It is possible to recover eyesight from -2 or +2.

Well this is the Bums, so someone will add "spiritual " or "sub-atomic" to the term substance, and suddenly balance will be restored to the Force while missing the point of what ChiDragon and I posted entirely.

Yes, the moving substances in the body is correct. Based on the thinkings of the ancient Taoist, the moving substance is chi. They defined that chi is the postnatal chi. The postnatal Chi is the external substance that supports and recycles the prenatal chi. However, postnatal chi was only a general term and did not specify what they are due to the lack of scientific knowledge. It was the best general explanation about chi at the time. At least it gave us an idea to investigate in the future. I must say I admire the wisdom of our ancestors. Nowadays, with the help of modern science, we can take the liberty to specify that the postnatal substances are the foods we eat and the air(oxygen) we breathe to preserve life. I don't think there is any contradiction with the ancient philosophy. Now, the question is being asked is the MCO real. The practice do enhance the health of the human body. Even though MCO was vague and ambiguous, but it is very close to the modern theory of the cell respiration process. IMMHO I would say that the conceptual idea about MCO is real.

... it seems to me that dzogchen practices are centered on re-integration into the formless tao, through sublimation of the elements into their non-reactive nature ( non causal-effect related ); in essence the nullification of them operating under either awareness or ignorance ( positive or negative ) to their roots in the absolute (the tao/khunzi). Taoist practices vary widely. What seems is being discussed here is the actual opposite of dzogchen aims. Taoist practice to transform their physical bodies into pure yang energy ( all positive ). This practice is similar to cultivating an astral body or pure light. ... if you have ever seriously meditated and opened your heart, you will know what this light or energy is. It is pristine. Beyond words. Diamond like, because it feels like a smooth sparkling stream that is absolute and indestructible.

It feels like a substance, but most likely is not. Substances can be measured, so ... (and in neudan it is not the Du and Ren channels)

Sorry to hear about your father and Cancer. Cancer took my older sister when she was 43. I am now 66. So, it has been a few years. I still remember the time leading up to her death. It was not a good time especially with the Chemo treatments. My parents have both passed away. So just thinking, ... there are some thing that should be addressed. Seems crude to think about those things now. But, must consider expenses. Where he wants to be. At a hospital or Home. Hospice. Those are some fantastic people who helped us. Also, do you want the hospital to take extraordinary steps to keep him alive. After seeing my mother with tubes down her throat, it was tough. When she became conscious, she tried pulling all those things out. They had to sedate her. After she was breathing on her own, they took the tubes out. Knowing the state she was in. Dementia and weak heart. Not able to stomach food. The family (brothers and my father) requested a DNR. To let her go peacefully. Then there is the financial side. Things cost money. Everyone chipped in to make it a bit easier. Funeral costs. Oh, Medicaid sent a demand letter requesting any of the assets to repay them back. Anyway, sorry to hear the bad news. But, you still have some time to spend with him.

Sorry to hear about your father my thoughts and prayers are with you.

My condolences! My mother had a brain tumor at the age of 80. However, she took the Wu Wei approach. She knew how serious of her situation was by taken no action for treatment. She was just left it at that until the time comes. She was a real tough lady!

saving of a small group from forms of violence is something and does not go uncounted, for those are dharmic battles won, but the greater war still goes on... will it ever be put to rest....apparently only in the purest of realms and with the Beings there-of.

That has got to be a knuckle break LOL! I'm not one to consume or turn on the News. It's hard to decipher as a consumer the biases of media. I would rather learn about the struggles of people locally to me and how I can help them. That is where I have found the most peace in being non-violent. I cannot blame either side and I can support the communities around me. I found myself at one point consuming the trauma-porn of the world rather than spending time helping those close by. Now I can work on changing that. This is a tough question and one that my teachers get asked a lot! Firstly, I do not surround myself with violent people. I associate with people I know will not bring me harm and I do not need to go out of my way to use "self-defense" on those I assume are going to harm me. However, this week a peaceful protest on my street was attacked by a group of angry men who were likely very lost in hate. I walked past just hours earlier, and I wonder what I would have done if I was there... There are ways to protect others and yourself in non-violent ways. Defending is not always violent - you can use self-defense as a means to de-escalate or escape from a situation if you are capable. There is nothing wrong with protecting as a means to stop others from getting seriously hurt. To me, however, hitting an attacker in anger back or with the desire to truly hurt them is where violence stems. These things happen so fast; it's hard to theorize about what I would have done. And - we are human. Mistakes are made and that's okay. As long as afterwards you can address them and grow. Today I can ask myself: how can I help in that situation? What would be the best way to defend myself and others in a way that aligns with my morals? I couldn't judge anyone on how they choose to approach the current state of the violent world we live in. This statement strikes me, and I think it depends from person to person. But, violence does not need to be the answer to violence. That will only feed the cycle. Thank you for sharing these thoughts! It got me to do some thinking today

Dear friends, It's now been 3 years, and I've completed all 3 levels of DeviPuram Sri Vidya, including going there 2 times for 7-10 days each time. What I will say is the following: 1) The Sri Vidya is real, 2) The sex practices have gone underground since the mahasamadhi (passing) of Guru Amritananda, 3) There are some weird vibes going on in DeviPuram (a clash between the spiritual energies of power and peace, with animalistic desires, power play, politics, dominance etc), So definitely go and learn, get the dikshas, complete all levels and get all mantras. If you want to do the more sexual stuff, it can be "inferred" from having learnt Devipuram Sri Vidya. Because in the manuals for the last and final puja done on either the 2d sri yantra/chakra or the 3d Meru, you learn exactly how all the mantras and yantras simply depict the human body. It's just like qigong, it's the whole micro- and macrocosm idea. Once you understand that, you can easily adapt the rituals to do them on yourself or on a partner. The general idea is to activate each "devata" through all 5 elements (earth, water, fire, air and akash). Akash is both space and energy, just like sound waves traveling through space, interdependent. That's the dual symbolism of many Gods/Godesses wielding the chakra/discus as well as the conch. The chakra is a spinning force, just like the milky way spiral galaxy, as well as the chakras or energy wheels in our body. It's movement, energy, electricity and vibration. Whereas the conch comes from the sea, ocean, symbolizing a great holding space. Within it is also space, and you know you can hear the sound when you hold the conch next to your ear. That's the space and sound principle. So it's the shiva shakti, yin yang, movement and stillness, electricity and magnetism, energy and space. E.g. the muladhara chakra is activated through worship of Ganapati. It's activated by giving food to others (bhojanam), doing tarpanam and marjanam (water ritual), havan (fire ritual), puja (all 5 elements), mantra japam (akash) and dhyanam (meditation, mind) You can do the tarpanam on yourself instead or the yantra or a turmeric pyramid, or literally on the penis if you're a man. The trunk of the elephant. Then you simply overlay the yantra on the penis, worshipping the different points. Bala or the swadisthana chakra, same thing, do it on the yantra, on a turmeric cone, or on the clitoris of a woman. All the yantra points are simply overlaid on the genital organs and then worshipped. Same with Chamunda around the navel, Raja Shyamala on the breasts of a woman, Varahi on the head and so on. Lalita Tripura Sundari is worshipped using the Sri Meru, you can again do that physically on yourself or on a partner. That is then the whole body. If you want to offer a sexual act, just use the general "skeleton" of a ritual: guru mantra, pranayama, sankalpa, offering and so on. Then you simply offer the sexual act and visualise yourself as the god and partner as goddess or reverse. So if you learn through Devipuram, you can infer how to do the sexual practices. The best bet if you want to learn directly, is to connect with some of the white students of Amritananda, who don't suffer from all the cultural and political consequences as the indians, who are free to teach. I might actively do that at some point, as Sri Vidya is honestly pretty great at activating the latent powers within the human body. Further, we're anyway having sex, might as well use some of those sessions to activate our energies and draw closer to the divine in a conscious manner.

Hey everyone, Just wanted to give a somewhat dissapointing update. I managed to work my way in, it was hard, it took 8 years, but through networking with all the official and unofficial masters, volunteers, my friends, people I met while in the temple, I finally managed to find a rogue SKY master who's no longer official who agreed to teach me astral travel. As you can imagine I was over the moon, I have after all been searching for this skill for 10 years, and have tried A LOT of methods. However when I was in the temple grounds with this rogue master, I was so at peace. It felt so normal and natural. Even though he's left the organisation, he exudes deep vibes of a sense of discipline, gratitude as well as the awe of the holiness and sanctity of Vethathiri Maharishi's teachings. It was a very religious feeling, in a positive way. During my stay he taught me several discontinued SKY meditations, so was happy to learn all of these things. When the morning came and we had to get up at 4 to do the astral travel, I was very much at ease, despite ofc being tired from jet lag as well as getting up at 4 Indian Time The meditation was much, much simpler than I had imagined. Just like I had heard, you meditate on a particular chakra the night before, blessed by the master. Then you go to bed and fall asleep while meditating with the masters blessing and prayer on that chakra. When you wake up you go to the temple, lie down flat, relax your whole body, then you do the meditation itself, which is super simple. You start with the well known SKY chakra meditation, then you visualise step-wise certain things. Out of the 6-7 steps, at the 4th step I was SURE I was leaving my body. From one moment to the next, the sensation of my physical body completely disappeared, my breathing also stopped, yet it felt very normal and natural, I felt at ease. I felt "ok, now my soul will soar". However for some reason I didn't get the full seperation, so instead I kept going with the step by step visualisation as guided by the master lying next do me (we were both covered by white sheets/blankets). Then we finished the visualisation and "visualised coming back". The moment I visualised my spirit coming back I felt a huge burst of energy all over. It was as if my whole aura or energy field had been somewhat small because of tiredness, lack of sleep, jetlag etc, hence I was a bit tired. But after the meditation (we visualised going to certain places to get energy), when I visualised returning, it was "real", meaning the energy we had collected came into my body. So my whole energybody / aura / field expanded and I felt so refreshed. The master told me that there's a specific 108 day long practice to go through first, which will ensure you have the power and energy to actually seperate that I should now go home and do on my own. And the visualisation is a kind of practice, but suddenly one day it will really happen, and you will really fully seperate and fly around. I was 100% convinced I would get it when I returned home to my country with the 108 day practice, as the practice under the master's guidance was so powerful, I really, truly deeply felt "ok, this is it". Now I've been home for more than 4-5 months and I did the practice, but I unfortunately still didn't get it. So am somewhat disappointed, yet also feeling satisfied "that I gave it my all". I went to the end of the Earth, I spoke to 100s of people, networked, travelled, spent money and time, took off work, I did all in my power "to get it". I got something, but still kind of "failed" at my main mission, unfortunately. I've spoken with several of the other SKY masters now, revealing I learnt the secret technique, without revealing from whom (as that would create political havoc and negatively impact the rogue master), and they shared their own experiences of astral travel and simply advised me: "it's not the technique, it's just 2 things: 1) be fully relaxed with your physical body, 2) completely shift your attention to your energybody". When you do this, you automatically pop out one day. So right now my plan is to simply keep practicing, 1 hour pr day Master Wu's qigong (the best I ever did), and 1 hour pr day SKY meditation. Then hopefully 1 day it will happen on it's own. My last hope is some of the tantric, magical daoist and sleeping qigong programs I'm sometimes doing particularly for astral travel will one day work, but so far I've done 3 tantric methods (some for 41 days, some for 90 days, and some for 100 days), I didn't succeed. Then I did daoist ways (mantra, mudra, talisman, meditation and connecting with particular spirits), some again for 49 days, some 100, and one method I really believed in I did for about 9 months straight every single night. I also failed. Sleeping qigong I've been doing for about 6 months, where 2 of the meditations can cause soul travel, but so far nothing. Will keep going. Anyway, just wanted to give you all an update, several people have privately messaged me asking about the results of my India trip and astral travel adventures/searches, so just wanted to share for all to see.