Question about spirituality and scientific testing

[h.uriahr]

Very true. After you can do little party tricks like light up a pile of newspaper or make a psi wheel spin, then what matters to your life? A long happy healthy and rewarding life...this is the best thing someone can achieve. If a teacher doesn't have these qualities, then it says something about their cultivation, in my opinion.

 

I think Ya Mu's idea about him using qi projection to treat people is a great example of an amazing ability. If people are consistently treated with positive results, then it proves the nature of qi. Why would someone have to prove it by doing some magic trick? Helping people with illness is magic enough for me.

 

Of course, maybe it's not even possible for someone to start a fire by just using their energy or intent. I can't do it, and don't know anyone that can. If I could, or did...well that would be interesting but ultimately a distraction from:

 

Making the world and your life a better place to be.

 

But that being said: I am on the side of the fence that thinks if someone's claiming they can do it, they really should do it scientifically and under scrutiny. I don't see a reason why not. And I think if someone is kind of claiming they have the ability, they should be straightforward about it saying "yes I can" or "no I can't" or just don't speak at all on the subject. Dancing around the answer by saying "I didn't say I can or can't" isn't helpful to anyone. No offense meant by that to anyone.

 

Qi treatments are usually ruled a placebo effect, unfortunately.

 

 

It wasn't clear to me that I made it clear (huh?) that I could or couldn't do anything except I spoke about qi projection because it is done to help others. I never said I could or couldn't do the other things. I just stated many reasons to not do such things. Sorry my meaning was not clear.

An understanding of energetics that one can only experience for oneself makes these things self-understood by the practitioner. It becomes self-evident to the practitioner.

 

 

 

SHOW HIM? Another perfect example of my point in posting. SHOW HIM IS PHENOMENA with no meaning whatsoever. I don't do phenomena. Had you asked could I help a certain person I would reply that my clinic is open and they are always welcome to come see me.

There you go!

I notice that you are NAMED seekeroftruth. Your various posts reflect this. I have noticed they usually start a lot of stuff that gets crazy but the truth usually comes out if a person simply reads all this stuff we post while in the qi state.

 

Practice sounds good.

I like your posts.

 

You mean you wouldnt be helping science and religion both if you were to prove under controlled conditions that you can do "whatever" it is you CAN do? Showing, in the opinion of some, wouldnt be (as you call it) phenomena, it would be evidence of an advancement in biophysics as we know it. Did I misread a post of yours or are you FOR testing the masters?

 

How do you know that firestarting, walking on water, etc are just useless tricks? Do you have any idea of what goes on internally? Do you have any idea if the internal happenings are or are not good for the practitioner?

No, you dont.

 

 

Exactly my point.

I "prove" qi projection every single day by helping others in clinic where there is NEED and have no desire to use it for such a shallow purpose as this "challenge". And yes, I have such qi projection on video and am currently involved in a project to do a video for teaching students different types of qi projection in the field of medical qigong. But anyone could easily say I paid the folks on the video and there was no "proof". I have no desire to "prove" to anyone anything about qi projection. I would rather anyone discover the experience of qi projection so that it would be self-evident as these things have meaning only when experienced by the individual.

 

Chances are show/WOW seeking students that meet a high level teacher would not recognize said teacher because of the desire to see such phenomena as proof. Understanding of such things are not generally given to those who would use it for it's WOW factor, but after a student has shown their true nature and their dedication to the study itself. And if anyone looks at it from a historical use, they would see the fallacy of showmanship as a teaching tool. It would not "PROVE" anything. Folks tend to follow the easy pathway far more than the actual true teachers. It has been that way throughout history and still is. A prime example is this thread, a "challenge" to people who have reached a certain level in development. Rather than seeking the teacher and studying the truth, many would rather see the show. Another prime example is the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tse, and other High Level teachers. While some follow them, rather than learning about their own true self, certain followers want to see the show and never find their true self. Others wish to persecute the followers. One day we will grow up.

 

And, if anyone is interested, the way to avoid shallow worthless teachings is simply to stop the world and tune in to the true heart. If something resonates then it probably has meaning. If it doesn't stay away from it.

With all due respect you have no idea whatsoever what I can or can't do or what I have personally experienced.

 

I am really surprised to see you attempt to make this personal as I have read some of your posts which showed significant thought.

I confused your post with another's in regards to testing.

[Aetherous]

Qi treatments are usually ruled a placebo effect, unfortunately.

 

It's very easy to scientifically prove it's not just placebo.

 

Maybe someone already has, and published the results?

[Ya Mu]

Qi treatments are usually ruled a placebo effect, unfortunately.

 

Works very well on animals. So no placebo.

 

You mean you wouldnt be helping science and religion both if you were to prove under controlled conditions that you can do "whatever" it is you CAN do? Showing, in the opinion of some, wouldnt be (as you call it) phenomena, it would be evidence of an advancement in biophysics as we know it. Did I misread a post of yours or are you FOR testing the masters?

 

I explained all this in my posts above. For my opinion re-read. Lets just say we disagree on what is and what isn't phenomena.

 

How do you know that firestarting, walking on water, etc are just useless tricks? Do you have any idea of what goes on internally? Do you have any idea if the internal happenings are or are not good for the practitioner?

No, you dont.

 

One more time, YOU have no idea what I can or can't do, you don't know me and you have never taken a class with me. AND again, all these things become self-evident to the practitioner if they understand energetics.

I am trying to teach that IF YOU PRACTICE these things will become self-evident. My posting has never been anything whatsoever about "what I said" but about what I can teach another person to do for themselves. And that, if a person practices they will learn "How do you know that (insert any number of things) is so?" is useless information because they will learn the (insert any number of things) for themselves. So it ends up as what they KNOW.

[Stigweard]

Have a read of this incredible result published in "Medical Applications of Qigong and Emitted Qi on Humans, Animals, Cell Cultures, and Plants: Review of Selected Scientific Research":

 

The Sun Qiuzhi and Zhao Li (Kuangan Men Hostipal, China Academy of Traditional Chinese Medicine, China), made a study of the effects of Qigong exercise as a therapeutic aid for advanced cancer patients with pathologically diagnosed malignant cancer. Over a period of six months, 97 patients practiced Qigong exercises and were treated with drugs, and a control group of 30 patients was treated only with drugs. For the Qigong group, 82% regained strength, 63% had improved appetites, 33% were free of diarrhea, 50% had increased body weight by more than 3kg, whereas the control group's rates were 10%, 10%, 6%, and 13% respectively.

 

No placebo effect here. Pure scientific proof that qigong can help you achieve one of it's claims: Health.

 

Works very well on animals. So no placebo.

I explained all this in my posts above. For my opinion re-read. Lets just say we disagree on what is and what isn't phenomena.

One more time, YOU have no idea what I can or can't do, you don't know me and you have never taken a class with me. AND again, all these things become self-evident to the practitioner if they understand energetics.

I am trying to teach that IF YOU PRACTICE these things will become self-evident. My posting has never been anything whatsoever about "what I said" but about what I can teach another person to do for themselves. And that, if a person practices they will learn "How do you know that (insert any number of things) is so?" is useless information because they will learn the (insert any number of things) for themselves. So it ends up as what they KNOW.

 

With great respect for yourself Ya Mu, can you see how this debate is based on opinions and thus it can go round and round forever?

 

However, if you were to undergo one of the scientific studies like in the Qigong Institute you could actually say, "Well in the tests I have done it has been proven that my Qi emmissions have had this measurable effect on such-and-such conditions." What amazing credibility that would give to your services!

[Ya Mu]

My view is that it is imperative that testing protocols are applied to the 'science' of Taoist spiritual technologies.

 

Firstly because there is a poliferation of charlatans who are using the demonstration of qigong powers as marketing

material promoting their schools, courses, services etc. For these individuals there is both a moral and, in many cases, a legal obligation for them to verify their claims.

 

And secondly because, as I have stated before, if such claims could be verified we have a wonderful opportunity here to be able to initiate the collection of scientific data that would lead the way into qigong metaphysics.

 

And to those saying that western science has no place in understanding Chinese Taoist arts, have a good look through the good work the Qi Institute has done. Study after study giving scientific verification of the health benefits of qigong, taijiquan, meditation, etc.

 

I read here that people are regarding qigong powers as guideposts of cultivation. I say, "Let go of these fascinations and be mindful instead of the signposts of a wholesome being:

~ Health

~ Happiness

~ Longevity

~ Virtuous fulfillment

 

I would travel the world over to learn from one who could 'prove' the had mastered these abilities.

 

Perhaps we could use this to measure the qi?

 

I do, however, believe that one day, as we make advances in quantum mechanics, we will have measuring devices sensitive enough for these type of measurements.

 

I enjoy your posts.

 

By the way, how old would a person have to be to "prove" they had mastered longevity? This old(134)?

 

 

 

 

OR how Happy would they have to be to "prove" they mastered happiness? This happy?

[baloneyx]

Hey I havent read the whole discussion but if none of you have seen this video of proof please watch.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWCn8PkHeuk

 

For the second part of what he does, I guess it's like he's on his way to levitation

[Stigweard]

Hey I havent read the whole discussion but if none of you have seen this video of proof please watch.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWCn8PkHeuk

 

For the second part of what he does, I guess it's like he's on his way to levitation

 

Well posted ... unfortunately this can't be considered complete scientific proof because there was no double-blind protocols in place. However it is a great place to start from and could be used as a basis authentic testing.

 

This healer has obviously demonstrated his willingness to be tested in this way. Is there anyone in his area who would volunteer as a ground zero point of contact?

[seekeroftruth]

 

I notice that you are NAMED seekeroftruth. Your various posts reflect this. I have noticed they usually start a lot of stuff that gets crazy but the truth usually comes out if a person simply reads all this stuff we post while in the qi state.

 

Practice sounds good.

I like your posts.

 

Thanks a lot for the compliment.

 

Threads here usually go in random directions, but hopefully end up in the juicy stuff (like now).

 

I was thinking about all of this (instead of studying for my organic chemistry final ) and thought:

 

If you had the ability to set stuff on fire, or levitate, or whatever, and went on the Randi show, what type of people would you attract? People interested in doing those powers instead of real seekers. Most teachers nowadays aren't lacking students, so why attract insincere students? And, as for making more people believe that qigong, etc., is real, well, don't the real students always come through in the end?

 

Baloneyx, that link was awesome, thanks.

 

I noticed how there were people who were posting skeptical comments even after watching the video, not even being open to the fact that something more is possible.

 

If someone pulled off the Randi challenge, would it be no different? Wouldn't people STILL be skeptical?

 

Most people probably won't believe you unless you can use telekenesis to mystically fly a frying pan and smack them in the face...and even then they might want scientific testing...

 

I think I understand where you're coming from Ya Mu...

[Ya Mu]

Have a read of this incredible result published in "Medical Applications of Qigong and Emitted Qi on Humans, Animals, Cell Cultures, and Plants: Review of Selected Scientific Research":

 

The Sun Qiuzhi and Zhao Li (Kuangan Men Hostipal, China Academy of Traditional Chinese Medicine, China), made a study of the effects of Qigong exercise as a therapeutic aid for advanced cancer patients with pathologically diagnosed malignant cancer. Over a period of six months, 97 patients practiced Qigong exercises and were treated with drugs, and a control group of 30 patients was treated only with drugs. For the Qigong group, 82% regained strength, 63% had improved appetites, 33% were free of diarrhea, 50% had increased body weight by more than 3kg, whereas the control group's rates were 10%, 10%, 6%, and 13% respectively.

 

No placebo effect here. Pure scientific proof that qigong can help you achieve one of it's claims: Health.

With great respect for yourself Ya Mu, can you see how this debate is based on opinions and thus it can go round and round forever?

 

However, if you were to undergo one of the scientific studies like in the Qigong Institute you could actually say, "Well in the tests I have done it has been proven that my Qi emmissions have had this measurable effect on such-and-such conditions." What amazing credibility that would give to your services!

 

Sure I see this is a circular debate. I am just trying to get folks to see the possibility that it is NEVER about what anyone else can or can't do, but about what they can arrive at for themselves.

(Just my opinion)

 

I know Ken Sancier of the Qigong Institute. He has contributed much, probably more than anyone to the compilation of the world's scientific exploration of qi. And a true scientist as well as a great person he is.

I HAVE done those tests - results are in my case files. (many years of them) But if published, case files do not present "proof" (What else was a person doing, etc.)

 

If you wish or anyone else wishes to set up a trust fund to fund a doubly blind placebo controlled crossover study of testing of any type of patient, say osteo arthritis, broken bones, or something like that, I would be glad to participate. Let me know.

But I do not need verification of credibility. Stay busy enough in clinic as it is. Want to go fishing.

[Stigweard]

Sure I see this is a circular debate. I am just trying to get folks to see the possibility that it is NEVER about what anyone else can or can't do, but about what they can arrive at for themselves.

(Just my opinion)

 

I know Ken Sancier of the Qigong Institute. He has contributed much, probably more than anyone to the compilation of the world's scientific exploration of qi. And a true scientist as well as a great person he is.

I HAVE done those tests - results are in my case files. (many years of them) But if published, case files do not present "proof" (What else was a person doing, etc.)

 

If you wish or anyone else wishes to set up a trust fund to fund a doubly blind placebo controlled crossover study of testing of any type of patient, say osteo arthritis, broken bones, or something like that, I would be glad to participate. Let me know.

But I do not need verification of credibility. Stay busy enough in clinic as it is. Want to go fishing.

 

Awesome! It's obvious you are singing my tune on many levels. And the establishment of such a trust fund is precisely what I have on my mind. In fact this dialogue is the process in motion.

 

And I do hear you when you say the real proof for people is in their own experience. But if I stand up and say "Qigong will improve your health!" then I'd better have some scientifically recognised proof behind what I am saying.

 

Where do you live? Next time I am in the area you and I are going fishing

[h.uriahr]

Have a read of this incredible result published in "Medical Applications of Qigong and Emitted Qi on Humans, Animals, Cell Cultures, and Plants: Review of Selected Scientific Research":

 

The Sun Qiuzhi and Zhao Li (Kuangan Men Hostipal, China Academy of Traditional Chinese Medicine, China), made a study of the effects of Qigong exercise as a therapeutic aid for advanced cancer patients with pathologically diagnosed malignant cancer. Over a period of six months, 97 patients practiced Qigong exercises and were treated with drugs, and a control group of 30 patients was treated only with drugs. For the Qigong group, 82% regained strength, 63% had improved appetites, 33% were free of diarrhea, 50% had increased body weight by more than 3kg, whereas the control group's rates were 10%, 10%, 6%, and 13% respectively.

 

No placebo effect here. Pure scientific proof that qigong can help you achieve one of it's claims: Health.

With great respect for yourself Ya Mu, can you see how this debate is based on opinions and thus it can go round and round forever?

 

However, if you were to undergo one of the scientific studies like in the Qigong Institute you could actually say, "Well in the tests I have done it has been proven that my Qi emmissions have had this measurable effect on such-and-such conditions." What amazing credibility that would give to your services!

 

Is that really scientific proof? If the patients knew they were practicing qigong then it could very well be argued that it's a placebo effect. I know qigong works, I'm not saying it doesnt. Here's a little story on placebo. Back when I was 17 years old I purchased a bottle of Pinnacle Andropoppers which are supposed to increase your testostorone. Long story short in one week I added 20lbs onto my benchpress but I expected as much. Years later I find out that the poppers werent effective at all and made extraordinary claims as to their content. If anyone here lifts weights I know you can appreciate a 20lb jump in one week.

 

If I'm not mistaken there's a video floating around where four qigong doctors place hands on a patient with a tumor and they make it disappear in a matter of seconds. You can view the tumor via ultrasound, as it is happening. Even with that kind of documentation western doctors arent going to prescribe qigong anytime soon. Now this is where I get conflicted with my own arguements because if someone has pretty good success rate for curing cancer and busting out tumors then I believe they should step forward and spread their knowledge and they should get tested.

[h.uriahr]

Sure I see this is a circular debate. I am just trying to get folks to see the possibility that it is NEVER about what anyone else can or can't do, but about what they can arrive at for themselves.

(Just my opinion)

 

I know Ken Sancier of the Qigong Institute. He has contributed much, probably more than anyone to the compilation of the world's scientific exploration of qi. And a true scientist as well as a great person he is.

I HAVE done those tests - results are in my case files. (many years of them) But if published, case files do not present "proof" (What else was a person doing, etc.)

 

If you wish or anyone else wishes to set up a trust fund to fund a doubly blind placebo controlled crossover study of testing of any type of patient, say osteo arthritis, broken bones, or something like that, I would be glad to participate. Let me know.

But I do not need verification of credibility. Stay busy enough in clinic as it is. Want to go fishing.

 

For any scientist or doctor in the western world to take your "test" serious then youre going to have to instantly mend a broken bone or fill any fracture or better yet, do pyrogenesis or walk on water, seeing as how I dont KNOW what you can or cant do I can only assume that you CAN do both of those. You cannot explain an instantly mended bone away with placebo. Doing that would be PROOF. Better yet, to make yourself more valid, you should line up 4 or 5 people with broken limbs and mend them all and then youre PROOF that qigong works.

[h.uriahr]

What if I can clearly fly, like I'm Hancock and the world has seen me fly around, etc, then am I obligated to submit myself to testing? What if I dont want to be tested? What if I can cure all illness by touch or better yet by thought alone? Am I obligated? What if I'm a true immortal, or I've obtained Christ like or Buddha powers? Would you demand that Jesus or Buddha be subjected to scientific testing?

[Trash Filter]

Siddhas powers are a beautiful reminder that we are more then we seem.

"The purpose of existence, is to understand existence itself."

 

The crux however, is to see more humans with high ethical standards. This is all that holds every one of us back.

Once this is accomplished to a certain degree, these powers will have great effect upon improving the planet and more then you can dream.

 

 

 

Am trying to be a good influence for my "brothers and sisters"

[Aetherous]

For any scientist or doctor in the western world to take your "test" serious then youre going to have to instantly mend a broken bone or fill any fracture or better yet, do pyrogenesis or walk on water, seeing as how I dont KNOW what you can or cant do I can only assume that you CAN do both of those. You cannot explain an instantly mended bone away with placebo. Doing that would be PROOF. Better yet, to make yourself more valid, you should line up 4 or 5 people with broken limbs and mend them all and then youre PROOF that qigong works. smile.gif

 

Are you a scientist or doctor? This is not how these professionals think...this is how uneducated people think. Scientists and doctors use and listen to the scientific method of testing claims, which could potentially "prove" that it's not placebo. No miracles need to happen...like instantly fixing a broken bone. Just good research and publishing that research in a medical journal.

[Stigweard]

Is that really scientific proof? If the patients knew they were practicing qigong then it could very well be argued that it's a placebo effect. I know qigong works, I'm not saying it doesnt. Here's a little story on placebo. Back when I was 17 years old I purchased a bottle of Pinnacle Andropoppers which are supposed to increase your testostorone. Long story short in one week I added 20lbs onto my benchpress but I expected as much. Years later I find out that the poppers werent effective at all and made extraordinary claims as to their content. If anyone here lifts weights I know you can appreciate a 20lb jump in one week.

 

If I'm not mistaken there's a video floating around where four qigong doctors place hands on a patient with a tumor and they make it disappear in a matter of seconds. You can view the tumor via ultrasound, as it is happening. Even with that kind of documentation western doctors arent going to prescribe qigong anytime soon. Now this is where I get conflicted with my own arguements because if someone has pretty good success rate for curing cancer and busting out tumors then I believe they should step forward and spread their knowledge and they should get tested.

 

Well pointed out and well argued. Indeed it is that because this particular study did not use double blind protocol then the sneaking possibility of placebo does creep in. Good job!

 

I shall keep digging through the data

[Stigweard]

What if I can clearly fly, like I'm Hancock and the world has seen me fly around, etc, then am I obligated to submit myself to testing? What if I dont want to be tested? What if I can cure all illness by touch or better yet by thought alone? Am I obligated?

 

I hear you ... though may I suggest that perhaps you are missing the point a little?

[Moonbar]

[Yuen Biao]

[Ya Mu]

For any scientist or doctor in the western world to take your "test" serious then youre going to have to instantly mend a broken bone or fill any fracture or better yet, do pyrogenesis or walk on water, seeing as how I dont KNOW what you can or cant do I can only assume that you CAN do both of those. You cannot explain an instantly mended bone away with placebo. Doing that would be PROOF. Better yet, to make yourself more valid, you should line up 4 or 5 people with broken limbs and mend them all and then youre PROOF that qigong works.

 

No, you can't assume that.

As far as doctors taking any test seriously, you have to realize that there are some smart doctors out there that DO practice qigong and that do send their patients to qigong healers, because they know it works. I have had several MD's in my classes, all eager to learn.

RE: Explaining an instantly mended bone away with placebo. Sure you can, just as easy as explaining qigong healing. Without the protocols in place no study conclusion can be valid (from a scientific viewpoint).

 

Dude, peace.

I was simply trying to get you to understand that what you were saying was not a logically valid argument. It would be like me saying, "When you get out of high school you should take a course in logic." Although I could think you were a teenager in high school, that your posts reflected this, or I could think that a course in logic would help you, I have no way of knowing. You could be a 78 year old grandmother that knows how to levitate and was simply screwing around. I have no way of knowing what you know or do not know.

[Moonbar]

Are you trying to be an imbecile? Or does that come natural to you?

 

Let me ask you a question: have you practised any form of spiritual exercise?

 

 

Yuen Biao, thankyou for your kind words

 

I say those things to demonstrate to people the complete BS that floats about with regard to these subjects - I could have used more colourful language that would have been a better reflection of how i felt

 

The subject of this thread is "PROVE IT" stop talking & demonstrate it

 

Have you read all the preceding posts? do you not see all the tip toeing about? - the desperate avoidance of the subject itself by those who claim this or that?

 

If the things i say bother you does that make me an imbecile? I must be ... if you say so

 

& yes i have spiritual practices - but they dont involve ego cultivation, they are based in reality.

 

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck & walks like a duck - its probably a duck

 

Sorry if thats too imbecilic for you

[Aetherous]

What! so now Scientists & Doctors are uneducated? ...Do you really think that? - I mean ...really? blink.gif

Time to wake up & smell what your shovelling dry.gif

 

What the heck are you talking about!?

 

You took that the entirely opposite way of how I wrote it. I'm actually saying the same thing as you.

[Moonbar]

Scotty,

 

Ive just gone back & re-read your post & you have my sencearest apologies

 

I did take it the wrong way - completely

 

There was a point there where i worked myself up into a state & ended up taking a nip at a Komrad.

 

Once again im very sorry, & my apologies to any & all if ive misquoted them.

[h.uriahr]

Are you a scientist or doctor? This is not how these professionals think...this is how uneducated people think. Scientists and doctors use and listen to the scientific method of testing claims, which could potentially "prove" that it's not placebo. No miracles need to happen...like instantly fixing a broken bone. Just good research and publishing that research in a medical journal.

 

Mending bones with a touch would be a bit difficult to explain under placebo. Also, my mother had stage 3 breast cancer and did one single doctor recommend qigong???NO, it was chemo and radiation, what about qigong for maintenance?? NO, not one single doctor EVER reco mmended any alternative therapy or maintenance. OBVIOUSLY IT TAKES MORE THAN STUDIES IN CHINA OR WHERE HAVE YOU. Under the rules of placebo, if you walked up to a broken bone in the ER and just touched it and it was set and healed then you could not explain it with placebo. Especially if you did it multiple times without mentioning what you were doing to the patient.

 

No, you can't assume that.

As far as doctors taking any test seriously, you have to realize that there are some smart doctors out there that DO practice qigong and that do send their patients to qigong healers, because they know it works. I have had several MD's in my classes, all eager to learn.

RE: Explaining an instantly mended bone away with placebo. Sure you can, just as easy as explaining qigong healing. Without the protocols in place no study conclusion can be valid (from a scientific viewpoint).

 

Dude, peace.

I was simply trying to get you to understand that what you were saying was not a logically valid argument. It would be like me saying, "When you get out of high school you should take a course in logic." Although I could think you were a teenager in high school, that your posts reflected this, or I could think that a course in logic would help you, I have no way of knowing. You could be a 78 year old grandmother that knows how to levitate and was simply screwing around. I have no way of knowing what you know or do not know.

Ya Mu,

 

Here is your post where I got my knowledge on your abilities.

 

I stated my opinion of the application of qi projection "from someone who knows how to do it". So I assume you are talking about fire starting. Do you believe that, say a person who has not been trained in the higher level aspects of energetics has a natural talent of starting fires, that he would be the person to listen to about the application of fire starting simply because he could do it? What I am saying here is that phenomena done with manipulation of qi has no place in the daily life of a person trained in higher level energetics. There should be a NEED or it is a waste.

 

In the above statement you make it CRYSTAL CLEAR that you can project qi but cannot start fires.

[Ya Mu]

Mending bones with a touch would be a bit difficult to explain under placebo. Also, my mother had stage 3 breast cancer and did one single doctor recommend qigong???NO, it was chemo and radiation, what about qigong for maintenance?? NO, not one single doctor EVER reco mmended any alternative therapy or maintenance. OBVIOUSLY IT TAKES MORE THAN STUDIES IN CHINA OR WHERE HAVE YOU. Under the rules of placebo, if you walked up to a broken bone in the ER and just touched it and it was set and healed then you could not explain it with placebo. Especially if you did it multiple times without mentioning what you were doing to the patient.

 

Re: Healers/ Physicians

You are oh-so-correct. There is an intense shortage of quality qigong teachers and healers. More need to step up to the plate. More physicians need to look at this MUCH closer; but if YOU were a physician and read all the non-sense (as well as the truths) posted in this thread would you have the slightest interest in qigong? Honestly? Or would you come away with the feeling that qigong healing was not nearly as important as some idiot being able to start a fire to dazzle his friends and SHOW what he can do? Honestly? OK, pretend you have never heard of qigong or qigong healing, you are a trained in western medicine physician and re-read the thread and tell me what you honestly think.

I also invite anyone else here to re-read the thread with that in mind and post your thoughts.

Now, is it any wonder that medical qigong has been so slow to get established with western physicians?

 

Re: Placebo

In the example you give of course it could be placebo IF THE PATIENT BELIEVED it would heal. The only way this could be ruled out would be a double blind, placebo controlled, crossover study.

 

Here is your post where I got my knowledge on your abilities.

 

I stated my opinion of the application of qi projection "from someone who knows how to do it". So I assume you are talking about fire starting. Do you believe that, say a person who has not been trained in the higher level aspects of energetics has a natural talent of starting fires, that he would be the person to listen to about the application of fire starting simply because he could do it? What I am saying here is that phenomena done with manipulation of qi has no place in the daily life of a person trained in higher level energetics. There should be a NEED or it is a waste.

In the above statement you make it CRYSTAL CLEAR that you can project qi but cannot start fires.

 

(apologies to our Chinese friends for the following spelling and/or improper usage)

 

One day in Hubei province in China Chen Ling looked up at his young girlfriend and said, "Nee Hun Piao Liang".

Then Jim Sanderford of Bonjour Texas mumbles something whole dozing on the porch. His wife of 60 years said, "What did you say? That sounded like a foreign language."

Jim replied, "I said you are very pretty".