The power of Internal Martial Arts

[Seth Ananda]

That is interesting but I think I have to dissagree with this part.

 

I think this is not half bad. But there are different kinds of training. Most martial arts training, even including the internal arts, serve to condition certain patterns into the mind. By putting these patterns into the mind one achieves a two-fold effect:

 

1. One's mind is calmer, because one believes that if one sticks to the pattern, one will be safe. So when something happens, there is less panic. This is really a placebo effect. You might as well believe that the great Flying Spaghetti Monster in the sky will protect you, and if you believe it enough, you will get the same calm and collected mind.

 

2. Since one's mind has been constrained by a pattern, one does very well with anything that fits into that pattern, but one fails catastrophically when something doesn't fit into the pattern. A pattern is a form of prejudice. Any conditioning is prejudice.

 

 

 

If you had been attacked (at any point before getting any martial training) you would know that the mind goes into panic, which is a pretty useless response - a mixture of, Freeze/Run/Lash out/go fetal - all at once. I don't know if that is a pattern, maby multiple patterns competing for dominance, but useless anyway.

 

Martial art trains you (that part of you that is in control in a situation like this) to make a useful response to the situation.

I don't think it has anything to do with belief, as there is no time to think, you just find your self responding in a usefull way. I agree that this may be a pattern that you trained in, but not to do with what you think is effective. at least that is my experience of these situations.

And what about a martial art like Systema or others, where you are put in painful, dangerous situations under pressure, and your job is to make your self keep full breathing and relax into it.

And it really works. Your automatic response becomes to relax - Let go. Is letting go a pattern?

the automatic response bit is trained, yes, but I still think the action of sudden deep relaxation is un-patterned as in it you are superbly free to respond exactly as needed, from a clear place.

 

Still thinking about it.

Seth Ananda

[goldisheavy]

If you had been attacked (at any point before getting any martial training) you would know that the mind goes into panic, which is a pretty useless response - a mixture of, Freeze/Run/Lash out/go fetal - all at once. I don't know if that is a pattern, maby multiple patterns competing for dominance, but useless anyway.

 

This is a response of what we call "ordinary being". You must understand why that is so. I can tell you about it, but if you don't feel it in your mind, you don't have an authentic understanding. The reason people panic is because they cling so strongly to form. When a person is attacked, this event threatens the form, the identity of the person. People respond in the same way to identity threats. Damaging the body is one way to attack identity, because people identify with the body. Even the idea of "damage" is based on what the body should be like. Play dough cannot be damaged with a blow, because we don't have an idea of what shape play dough should be in. But you don't have to hit the body. You can insinuate that the person is a liar. If the person's identity is "I am an honest person", this will do damage to it of the exactly the same kind as hitting the body. Straight people who cling to their straightness feel damaged in the presence of gay people and often react violently. It's all the same thing.

 

So then, how does the ordinary, stupid being respond to the threats to the form? They respond by learning even MORE forms. So when the pattern of identity is threatened, the coping mechanism is to acquire even more patterns. Call them defensive patterns or coping patterns. Of course these patterns have exactly the effect I explained in my previous posting in this thread. But long term, the problem only gets worse, because the awareness is submerging itself deeper and deeper into more and more patterns, and life becomes more and more boxed in and regimented and more and more coping strategies are required later on and less and less spontaneity is available and more and more formality and fear enters into life and so on. Eventually the person, if they persist in this idiocy, becomes paranoid and no pattern is enough. This is when the person washes their hands 20 times because they can't be sure that 1 time is enough, or when they lock the door 40 times to make sure it's truly locked, etc.

 

All ordinary people are basically sick and insane people and the arts and sciences they produces are reflections of their sickness.

 

Martial art trains you (that part of you that is in control in a situation like this) to make a useful response to the situation.

 

As long as you're dealing with ordinary beings or with beings who are trained in the similar forms as you, yes, it's useful. However, if you meet someone I talk about, you are in trouble. And this happens in the real world once in a while. Like when a boxer gets hit in the legs, or when a grappler gets hit in the face with such speed and force that they're not used to it and haven't trained neither body nor mind to deal with it. And so on. All patterns fail when they meet their anti-pattern.

 

Practitioners who seek to uproot people fail against people who do not depend on a root internally. Breaking the body structures fails against those who have unstructured body mechanics. Hitting someone fails when the person is accustomed to receiving the blows, but the same person could maybe be pinched into submission. A strong warrior wins against all the mighty warriors but utterly fails against a tiny tiny virus. If you are smaller than your opponent, you usually lose, but if you are much smaller, then you win. So there is nothing that's absolutely this or that way. Everything bends and flexes infinitely.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with belief, as there is no time to think, you just find your self responding in a usefull way.

 

Instincts are conditioned by beliefs. You should investigate this for yourself. Beliefs structure the experience. Beliefs are not just words you say to yourself silently in the mind -- that's the most superficial layer of belief, and often the words you say that you believe are actually not your true belief anyway. True belief is that which you take as fact, without question.

Edited November 13, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Sloppy Zhang]

Real isn't just what you do but how you do it.

 

http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur2.html

 

That's way too much reading

 

That was an awesome article. Seriously orb, you should read it. That kind of traditional training is what traditional martial arts are really about. REALLY real.

 

 

Or on broken glass, or a stair well, or in a phone box, a car, uneven terrain or especially against someone who learnt to fight outside a sporting arena?

 

A Wing Tsun teacher I know got regularly challenged by the local members of his neighborhood Muai Thai club. He would poke them in the eye and that was it. Most of them are his students now.

 

Mind you, Bjj still does well against crap as long as it is in the 'Right' conditions to be able to use it. One of the melbourne gracie teachers went around sampling the talent and cleaned up a number of teachers (on their nice smooth dojo floors, with those cushy mats on them ). He met my old Aikido teacher and couldnt move him. he is now trying to learn some Aikido principles to add them to ground work.

 

I spar with a bjj friend, and any time he rushes me I drop an elbow on him. I just don't understand why anyone would offer me the back of their skull, neck and spine like that. It asking for something really nasty to happen.

 

Seth

 

I was bored today and browsing through youtube and found this vid:

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxUmNOyeCw

 

Pretty short vid, starts off with some guys trying to pull a prank, but it ends up in a fight. It's pretty obvious that the guy with his head down keeps trying to attempt a takedown. The problem? The guy he's trying to take down has his back to a wall, there's nowhere to take him down! You can see for yourself how the video ends....

 

I'm not saying that BJJ is bad. I'm not saying that there is some invincible art. PEOPLE, however, get into a false sense of security that their techniques work. The military thinks that teaching gracie jujutsu will be good because it is proven to be effective... but here we have a trained marine that can't put it to use when a joke escalates.

 

People get so sucked up in style and all this stuff, they miss the forest because of the trees. They are so preoccupied with "I know BJJ' or "I know Wing Chun" that they miss the obvious. It's like intelligent people with no common sense

Edited November 13, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[wudangquan]

I have to be a dissident again . . .

 

There's this sort of nauseating, sycophantic ego stroking that goes on inside the martial arts world . . .

 

(IMHO) if you take the top 10% of martial artists, martial arts masters, etc. - from any style or orientation - only 1% of them can actually REALLY handle or even prevent a huge adrenalin dump.

 

So that's what? .01% of martial artists? haha

 

The way the stuff really happens is that you don't have time to prepare or prevent the dump. A good stick up kid doesn't offer you a frontal challenge or something. They catch you in an elevator while you're holding to arms full of grocery bags and and they take you out in one movement that you don't see coming.

 

It's almost impossible to really defend yourself against people with violent intentions and the will to carry it out. If they want to get you they're going to get you.

 

There are two real exceptions I think . . .

 

#1. The person that is environmentally aware enough to avoid the problem or to be expecting it. The guy who's holding steel under the grocery bag and is ready to move FAST if he has to.

 

#2. The person who is so benevolent and who has cultivated well enough that they would REALLY turn the other cheek and don't care about their own physical interests much. The are purely benevolent and when they get attacked - without any internal dialogue whatsoever - they just feel sorry for this person who's so lost and they understand that utimately this person is trading virtue for karma with them.

 

I've met a few internal martial artists and cultivators who were in the second category, and if they were put into a sticky situation with a 19 old Mike Tyson on a flight of stairs - They could probably at least do OK.

 

But when I say a few - I mean maybe 2.

 

Most martial artists - even the great ones are just delusional though (IMHO).

 

I'm a good martial artist. I know my own level of ability in relationship to most of the ma community, and it's not bad for sure.

 

But I don't test the streets. No matter how good I am I know that any 16 year old street kid who's lost enough of his original nature and has bad enough intentions is going to get me, more than likely.

 

I try to avoid it, and if it happens I would try my best to understand my own culapility in creating the causality of it, but anyone who thinks that their training can prevent them from getting got is a fool.

[Sloppy Zhang]

There are two real exceptions I think . . .

 

#1. The person that is environmentally aware enough to avoid the problem or to be expecting it. The guy who's holding steel under the grocery bag and is ready to move FAST if he has to.

 

#2. The person who is so benevolent and who has cultivated well enough that they would REALLY turn the other cheek and don't care about their own physical interests much. The are purely benevolent and when they get attacked - without any internal dialogue whatsoever - they just feel sorry for this person who's so lost and they understand that utimately this person is trading virtue for karma with them.

 

I've met a few internal martial artists and cultivators who were in the second category, and if they were put into a sticky situation with a 19 old Mike Tyson on a flight of stairs - They could probably at least do OK.

 

But when I say a few - I mean maybe 2.

 

Most martial artists - even the great ones are just delusional though (IMHO).

 

I'm a good martial artist. I know my own level of ability in relationship to most of the ma community, and it's not bad for sure.

 

But I don't test the streets. No matter how good I am I know that any 16 year old street kid who's lost enough of his original nature and has bad enough intentions is going to get me, more than likely.

 

I try to avoid it, and if it happens I would try my best to understand my own culapility in creating the causality of it, but anyone who thinks that their training can prevent them from getting got is a fool.

 

Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi talks about this quite a bit.

 

A sniper dozens of feet away is going to kill you as soon as he gets you in his sights.

 

The guy aiming to stab you as you go up a flight of stairs is going to stab you in the back.

 

The guy who rigs your car to explode as soon as you turn the ignition is going to kill you as soon as you start your car up.

 

You can't really train to handle these situations... well, you can't physically defend against them anyway.

 

As for adrenaline dumps and stuff... I guess it comes from experience and training. If you have been in fights before and have the experience, on the street in the ring or whatever, then you are less likely to get as lost as someone who hasn't. I have my thoughts on the effectiveness of ring MMA on the street, but it DOES give experience in being in a situation. Now as long as the person stays AWARE of where they are (awareness is always a must anyway), then he/she can definitely use their MMA training to handle it, not getting too caught up in things, not worrying, knowing what they can/can't do, knowing how to respond to changes in the body, etc. Now, you can acquire this same skill by NOT training in MMA. A link was already posted to some koryu training. Someone who's had a rough life also knows how to deal with this.

 

And wudangquan, as you pointed out, there are some people who by their very nature/cultivation may be able to handle themselves... read: MAY.

 

So, eh, you know, there are a lot of factors involved.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[wudangquan]

Yeah I think we agree sloppy.

 

I think that the sport stuff is definitely valuable.

 

One thing I mentioned in my original reply was that bjj (or boxing or any art where you train at least near full power and speed against a resisting opponent - for me in recent years it's been Shuai Jiao) probably helps develop your "fighting will".

 

Really though, it comes down like you and a few other people have said to having REAL experience in mammalian politics and understanding how those play out

 

When we were kids we always talked about "selling wolf tickets", or just pressure stacking people so hard and so fast that any training, forethought or preparation is rendered more or less useless. The worst is when you're with your girl or any other loved one. . .

 

I started boxing when I was in middle school and that for sure was beneficial to me. I learned how to keep it together when getting hit hard.

 

But that's just one level of it . . . You can just watch other mammals in conflict and see how deep the politics go.

 

Training is it's own reward for me, I think. I'm more interested in the process and the notion of using my body as a vehicle to more clearly understand my (real) self than with potential results.

 

The tough guy bravado is lame and indicative of someone who doesn't really understand violence, though IMHO and I always feel a bit annoyed by all of those sausage necked tough guys and their big mouths.

[Spirit Ape]

Most MMA fighters are better then Traditional Kung fu fighters that is a known fact!

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 7, 2009 by mjjbecker

[wudangquan]

Most MMA fighters are better then Traditional Kung fu fighters that is a known fact!

 

That's not a fact, and if you think it is you don't know what a fact is.

 

It might be a statistical propensity that they are more specialized in a certain thing or environment, and in that environment they have better results.

 

What happens if you take them out of that environment of specialization, though?

 

There is not enough statistical data to warrant claiming any "facts" about such a situation.

 

Actually though . . . It's a silly argument and I shouldn't have gotten involved in it. haha

 

There's a good side to everything. BJJ, Kung Fu, Boxing, Pacifism - whatever, and the key is how and why you are training, not what so much.

 

I had some free time so I let myself get sucked into this one. Bad me. haha

[Seth Ananda]

Most MMA fighters are better then Traditional Kung fu fighters that is a known fact!

I agree with Wudangquan. MMA trains for the ring, with rules. sure they get a lot better, usually, at taking blows and full contact, but as soon as someone uses an eye gouge or throat strike, they like anyone go down.

 

If an art specializes in some really nasty stuff, and another art comes along and says ok, were going to fight to see who's best, but you cant use most of what you train, and you have to wear gloves, and we can only do it under very specific conditions, which we decide! Of course MMA will usually win under these conditions. I just cant see how that makes them 'Better.'

 

Seth

[Starjumper]

All other things being equal, the most sensitive person will always prevail. The most sensitive are those who train in softness in the internal arts. Can you yield to four ounces of pressure no matter how fast it comes at you?

 

Today I rejoined my applications class. One of the world's greatest applications experts, who was the teacher, who was the #1 adopted son of my chi kung teacher, passed away recently while I was gone in the mountains, but the senior student has taken up the teaching. He wanted me to palm strike his shoulder hard tonight but I didn't want to do it that hard so he showed me a palm strike against the door sill to demonstrate. Class is in a nice solid old wood three story school building. To show him I could do it plenty hard I did a one inch palm strike against the door sill and the building resounded with a nice boom =) Hurt my wrist like hell though. It's a small private class and most of the other students are so advanced in so many arts they are like high level masters themselves, and they are great teachers.

 

MMA is full of rules to prevent you from really hurting the other person, which is like doing it wrong. There are sooo many ways to effortlessly kill and maim people that it is mind boggling.

 

If you don't want to really hurt the other person but instead steal their balance and make them fall down that doesn't do any good in MMA because the bozo will just get up and come at you again. In real life the other would probably figure out right away that they better leave while they have a chance.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Starjumper7

[steve]

Every style has it's strengths and weaknesses.

I think that we jump to too many conclusions based on limited experience and information, even the most experienced of us. I don't think it's valid to say that any one style is better than any other. A good fighter is made from a multitude of variables, style and method being only one.

 

I used to train with a Wing Chun guy many years ago. His solution to learning how to fight (for real) was to go out to a local park (pretty tough section of Baltimore) and do some forms to get peoples' attention, then pick fights with strangers. He would never attack anyone, just bait them. No rules, no expectations, good luck - right there in the park.

He was one hell of a fighter. To earn my black sash, I was required to go one on one with him in the back room of the school, no audience but my wife who wanted to watch me fight. It was tough and bloody. My wife never wants to watch me fight again, she didn't like it.

Years later, he ended up in prison for a few years. When he returned home, he had no teeth.

No matter how tough you think you are, there's always tougher.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 7, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Baguakid]

mjjbecker,

 

Nice Video. One of my teachers in Shanghai taught me some of these techniques for developing the body to take a punch like the first guy. This guy's stomach was like punching a tire. He taught me techniques for building Chest, Back and other areas and told me it would build my stomach like his. Like Iron Body techniques.

 

He worked out with trees in the park and boy I wouldn't want to take a hit from him.

 

And, if you looked at him in the group he bs'd with in the park you'd think he was just another one of the guys. Nothing special.

 

This is another thing MA teaches. To develop the body in such a way that parts are like weapons, other parts are like armor.

 

And, to look like you couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag. Then, you have the drop on the other guy. A sleeper.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 7, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Vajrasattva]

This is a stupid argument and everyone has the "my shit is better" but i will tell you this I have trained External & Internal MA. I have been hit and hurt by both but my opinion still stands that the guy that has full control of his body, emotions, energy, relaxation, mind, breath, root, spinal suspension, will most likely be the one delivering the most actual pain. When I train & teach I teach to hurt not play games not "endure" in the ring. I train to survive. If that means grab a key and jam in your eye so be it.

 

That is the difference.

 

One of my Silat teachers, Pa herman Suwanda was once with a Gracie guy at Dan Inosanto's academy. The Gracie said he could get out of any position and that grappling could beat anything.... etc. So Suwanda got a hold of him. They counted to 3....On three as the guy tried to "roll"with Pa, Pa herman grabbed the Guys Dick and yanked it out of his shorts and pulled the shit out of it the guy SCREAMED! And said yelling you can't do that in BJJ! Pa Herman was on top of him like white on rice.

 

Pa herman said yeah but you can do it in Silat and especially in the streets of Java.......

 

All it takes is a second to "cheat" and get the leverage or the pain needed to finish the job or survive or "stab" etc...

 

If you have Chi and conditioning to backup what we call "Malacia" You will go a long way.

 

 

I donotcare who you are these areas of your body will never and can never be conditioned "externally" through MMA training which means they will always be liabilities......

 

Eyes

Throats

Balls/Dick/Groin muscles

Armpits

ears

Glands

nerves

pressure points

Internal organs

Ribs

Feet/toes

Fingers

Ming Meng

Navel

 

These are the main areas we internal martial artists hunt for and seek to destroy.

 

As Pa harold Koning tells me all the time:

 

L.A.W

 

Lights, Air, Wheels

 

take away all three his vehicle shuts down.

 

I have MMA guys in my class I have trained MMA guys & trained with them. Iagree you should havethat knowledge but that also can blind you if you not have the "other" side of MA (internal side) & Vice a versa.

 

Internal MA that is good will have both physical & internal & healing & "malacia".

A BJJ guy came tomy silat class and he is a brown Belt. He saw what I do on the ground and said it was "Butter Fly Guard like tactics" .....

 

I said well its Silat Day 1 ground fighting.

 

 

All arts that are good have "it" to survive.

 

Peace

 

Santiago Dobles

Edited November 13, 2008 by Vajrasattva

[h.uriahr]

This is a stupid argument and everyone has the "my shit is better" but i will tell you this I have trained External & Internal MA. I have been hit and hurt by both but my opinion still stands that the guy that has full control of his body, emotions, energy, relaxation, mind, breath, root, spinal suspension, will most likely be the one delivering the most actual pain. When I train & teach I teach to hurt not play games not "endure" in the ring. I train to survive. If that means grab a key and jam in your eye so be it.

 

That is the difference.

 

One of my Silat teachers, Pa herman Suwanda was once with a Gracie guy at Dan Inosanto's academy. The Gracie said he could get out of any position and that grappling could beat anything.... etc. So Suwanda got a hold of him. They counted to 3....On three as the guy tried to "roll"with Pa, Pa herman grabbed the Guys Dick and yanked it out of his shorts and pulled the shit out of it the guy SCREAMED! And said yelling you can't do that in BJJ! Pa Herman was on top of him like white on rice.

 

Pa herman said yeah but you can do it in Silat and especially in the streets of Java.......

 

All it takes is a second to "cheat" and get the leverage or the pain needed to finish the job or survive or "stab" etc...

 

If you have Chi and conditioning to backup what we call "Malacia" You will go a long way.

I donotcare who you are these areas of your body will never and can never be conditioned "externally" through MMA training which means they will always be liabilities......

 

Eyes

Throats

Balls/Dick/Groin muscles

Armpits

ears

Glands

nerves

pressure points

Internal organs

Ribs

Feet/toes

Fingers

Ming Meng

Navel

 

These are the main areas we internal martial artists hunt for and seek to destroy.

 

As Pa harold Koning tells me all the time:

 

L.A.W

 

Lights, Air, Wheels

 

take away all three his vehicle shuts down.

 

I have MMA guys in my class I have trained MMA guys & trained with them. Iagree you should havethat knowledge but that also can blind you if you not have the "other" side of MA (internal side) & Vice a versa.

 

Internal MA that is good will have both physical & internal & healing & "malacia".

A BJJ guy came tomy silat class and he is a brown Belt. He saw what I do on the ground and said it was "Butter Fly Guard like tactics" .....

 

I said well its Silat Day 1 ground fighting.

All arts that are good have "it" to survive.

 

Peace

 

Santiago Dobles

 

I wouldnt say that just because someone trains in MMA that they become incapable of lethal force.

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[jaloo]

I wouldnt say that just because someone trains in MMA that they become incapable of lethal force.

 

I agree with your statement, but....

 

A fighter tends to react within the bounds of their training. If you are used to fighting within a set of rules, during a real battle lethal or "dirty" strikes are not instinctive. A sport fighter will usually have to think about using such a technique, which can get you hurt in a self defense situation.

[h.uriahr]

I agree with your statement, but....

 

A fighter tends to react within the bounds of their training. If you are used to fighting within a set of rules, during a real battle lethal or "dirty" strikes are not instinctive. A sport fighter will usually have to think about using such a technique, which can get you hurt in a self defense situation.

 

Having personally known amature boxers and kickboxers, none of them have ever had problems distinguishing between a real fight and the ring. They may have a tendency to use the techniques they train with everyday but the damage inflicted by a boxer or kickboxer with their technique alone is nothing to be laughed at. Someone who trains using eye pokes, etc may be a tad quicker at using them but it's not a noticeable difference.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Having personally known amature boxers and kickboxers, none of them have ever had problems distinguishing between a real fight and the ring. They may have a tendency to use the techniques they train with everyday but the damage inflicted by a boxer or kickboxer with their technique alone is nothing to be laughed at. Someone who trains using eye pokes, etc may be a tad quicker at using them but it's not a noticeable difference.

 

It's not just about YOU using them, but it's about the other guy using them, and you planning ahead.

 

If you normally train with things off limits, then when you get into a "real" fight you start to think, "okay, now this isn't a ring, what can I do, what can he do..." you have to think about thinking about what he's going to do. When you train with the "anything goes" mindset, you train in being aware of what he could have in his pocket, or what he is standing next to, or where you are standing.

 

If you have to think about the extra stuff, that's added time that detracts from where your attention SHOULD be (the fight and other things going around), and slows reaction time. It might not slow it a lot. A good athlete may be able to make up for it... but you know, when your balls are on the line (literally!) do you really want to risk it? In 95-99% of the encounters you will have (and some people NEVER get into fights, so the chances of being in an encounter are low to begin with), do you really want to risk that being the 1% time that something comes out of nowhere and you get crippled/killed?

 

I do not want to risk it. If you think it isn't such a big deal... well I guess that it's your decision to make.

[Seth Ananda]

Thanks everyone, I have really enjoyed the stories, especially the dick story, although I didn't think there was much 'My shit is better' going on. Well I have liked this thread anyway.

And thanks for that Stairway clip, and the Awesome Internal MA Fatman. How cool was He...

 

Peace.

 

Seth

[h.uriahr]

It's not just about YOU using them, but it's about the other guy using them, and you planning ahead.

 

If you normally train with things off limits, then when you get into a "real" fight you start to think, "okay, now this isn't a ring, what can I do, what can he do..." you have to think about thinking about what he's going to do. When you train with the "anything goes" mindset, you train in being aware of what he could have in his pocket, or what he is standing next to, or where you are standing.

 

If you have to think about the extra stuff, that's added time that detracts from where your attention SHOULD be (the fight and other things going around), and slows reaction time. It might not slow it a lot. A good athlete may be able to make up for it... but you know, when your balls are on the line (literally!) do you really want to risk it? In 95-99% of the encounters you will have (and some people NEVER get into fights, so the chances of being in an encounter are low to begin with), do you really want to risk that being the 1% time that something comes out of nowhere and you get crippled/killed?

 

I do not want to risk it. If you think it isn't such a big deal... well I guess that it's your decision to make.

 

The same is said about traditional martial arts and self defense systems. Just because youre a blackbelt or an advance practitioner doesnt mean you are a certified badass. That one percent could be a gun and I dont know of anyone who can dodge a bullet or take one for that matter. As far as training with the off limits thing, the only time those thoughts go on is MAYBE in a ground situation but again, most of the people I know have no qualms with biting, poking, pinching, twisting or whatever is needed to win the fight. By people I mean the amatures I know. Another thing is that even if the only thing to go through a boxers mind was jab, cross, hook or uppercut, I'd still take the precision and timing of a boxer over some street punk or self defense system. A handful of the people that actually train in a certain martial art or self defense system are good at them, other than that it's a false sense of security.

[Starjumper]

He was one hell of a fighter. To earn my black sash, I was required to go one on one with him in the back room of the school, no audience but my wife who wanted to watch me fight. It was tough and bloody. My wife never wants to watch me fight again, she didn't like it.

 

My teachers insist that a fight should only last one second, and that's how we make it work.

 

 

There was a PaKua master who was in Seattle for awhile and for graduation day he and his #1 student went to a biker bar known for everyone having guns and thinking they are badasses. The teacher shoved three bikers standing around outside the door and when they went for him he handed them off to his student. The student used them to mop the sidewalk and graduated.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Vajrasattva]

My teachers insist that a fight should only last one second, and that's how we make it work.

There was a PaKua master who was in Seattle for awhile and for graduation day he and his #1 student went to a biker bar known for everyone having guns and thinking they are badasses. The teacher shoved three bikers standing around outside the door and when they went for him he handed them off to his student. The student used them to mop the sidewalk and graduated.

 

 

: )

 

It should last 1 to 3 sec at the most.