Chapter One of the TTC

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 21 Manifestation of the virtue of Tao
1. 孔德之容
2. 惟道是從。
3. 道之為物
4. 惟恍惟惚。
5. 惚兮恍兮
6. 其中有象。
7. 恍兮惚兮
8. 其中有物。
9. 窈兮冥兮
10. 其中有精。
11.其精甚真。
12.其中有信。
13.自古及今，
14.其名不去。
15.以閱眾甫。
16.吾何以知眾甫之狀哉！
17.以此。

1. The appearance of great virtue;
2. Only trails Tao.
3. This thing, Tao,
4. It's dull and hazy.
5. It’s dullness and haziness,
6. It has images.
7. It’s haziness and dullness,
8. It has things.
9. It’s profusion and dimness,
10. It has the essence.
11. Its essence is real,
12. And promising.
13. From present to ancient,
14. Its name does not vanish.
15. Using it to observe the origin of all things.
16. I can recognize the original state of all things!
17. From it(Tao).

Edited 16 hours ago by ChiDragon

[心神 ~]

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Okay! 

Let's evaluate your idea. The lines have a nice contrast, but it did not fit the logic of the first line.

5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。
6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

The second line is the exact translation of the original text.  The first line does not have an indication it was sensed. It only says when you cannot see it. However, the first line we can only observes its mystery, but not its inner. There was no inner or outer mystery to be observed. Hence, we can only grok its quale is because it's invisible.

PS
This is the close translation I can get. Unless, someone else can come up with another logical translation with substantiation are welcome. If anyone intended with an hostile attitude, then please don't bother.  

 

When I look up the meaning of each character, this is what I find:

 

5. 故常無欲以觀其妙

故 therefore; so; thus; for this reason; because of; cause; reason; former; old; old friend; old matter; incident; event; deliberately; intentionally; to pass away; hometown; native place

常 constant; always; often; regularly; habitual; customary; common; ordinary; normal; fixed

無 not; no; without; lack; absence; none; nothing; nothingness; empty; to not have

欲 desire; want; wish; would like to; intend; plan; appetite; craving; lust; greed; urge; need; request; to be about to; will; shall

以 use; by means of; with; take; because of; according to; so as to; in order to; thereby; and; from; to regard as

觀 look; see; watch; observe; view; inspect; contemplate; reflect; consider; viewpoint; scene; Daoist temple; monastery

其 his; her; its; their; that; those; such; the aforementioned; emphasis marker; should; would; perhaps

妙 subtle; fine; delicate; ingenious; clever; wonderful; marvelous; exquisite; profound; mysterious; key point; hidden secret

 

6. 常有欲以觀其徼

常 constant; always; often; regularly; habitual; customary; common; ordinary; normal; fixed

有 have; possess; there is; there are; exist; presence; own; happen; occur; certain; some

欲 desire; want; wish; would like to; intend; plan; appetite; craving; lust; greed; urge; need; request; to be about to; will; shall

以 use; by means of; with; take; because of; according to; so as to; in order to; thereby; and; from; to regard as

觀 look; see; watch; observe; view; inspect; contemplate; reflect; consider; viewpoint; scene; Daoist temple; monastery

其 his; her; its; their; that; those; such; the aforementioned; emphasis marker; should; would; perhaps

徼 border; boundary; frontier; outskirts; limit; edge; patrol; guard; intercept; demand; exact; seek

 

[ChiDragon]

32 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

5. 故常無欲以觀其妙

故 therefore; so; thus; for this reason; because of; cause; reason; former; old; old friend; old matter; incident; event; deliberately; intentionally; to pass away; hometown; native place

常 constant; always; often; regularly; habitual; customary; common; ordinary; normal; fixed

無 not; no; without; lack; absence; none; nothing; nothingness; empty; to not have

欲 desire; want; wish; would like to; intend; plan; appetite; craving; lust; greed; urge; need; request; to be about to; will; shall

以 use; by means of; with; take; because of; according to; so as to; in order to; thereby; and; from; to regard as

觀 look; see; watch; observe; view; inspect; contemplate; reflect; consider; viewpoint; scene; Daoist temple; monastery

其 his; her; its; their; that; those; such; the aforementioned; emphasis marker; should; would; perhaps

妙 subtle; fine; delicate; ingenious; clever; wonderful; marvelous; exquisite; profound; mysterious; key point; hidden secret

 

Yes, my original translation was
Therefore, when it is always not there(常無), one would observe its subtlety.

 

Then, I had changed to read: 
5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

Does the logic change? 
Yes, there is a difference between "always not there" and "always invisible".
"Always not there" could imply that it has never ever been existed. Where "always invisible" implies that it exists but just not visible. Do you follow the logic?

Don't you think that the mystery in line 5 falls into the mystery in Lines 7 to 8?
7. 此兩者同出而異名，
8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，
9. 眾妙之門。

 

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,
8. Both are regarded as unfathomable, the most occult and profound;
9. The gate of all subtleties.

 

Edited 15 hours ago by ChiDragon

[steve]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

To translate these terms, one must have the cultural background of understanding.  
天子 : son of sky(heaven); emperor   
To an English speaker properly would translated as "the son of heaven".
To a native speaker would be understood as "the son of the sky", Of course, this would sound awkward to an English speaker. 

The idea is more important than what is called. The direct translation of 天子 is the son of heaven(sky). The actual implication was directed to the emperor. In the ancient Chinese thinking, earth was ruled by the sky(heaven). The emperor rules on earth, therefore, the emperor was sent down from heaven(sky) to rule on earth.
 

天師: Astrologer
天命:  Fate; destiny 
天問: Ask the sky(heaven); question to the sky
 天地: Sky and earth; universe

 

理天: Principle of Sky(Heaven); Absolute reality

氣天: Spiritual world

象天: Material world 

Yes, to the English ear heaven is a more accurate translation than sky in many cases

[steve]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Chapter 14 The invisible Tao
1. 視之不見,名曰夷。
2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。
3. 摶之不得,名曰微。
4. 此三者不可致詰，
5. 故混而為一。­
6. 其上不皦，
7. 其下不昧，
8. 繩繩不可名，
9. 復歸於無物。
10.是謂無狀之狀，
11.無物之象，
12.是謂惚恍。
13.迎之不見其首，
14.隨之不見其後。
15.執古之道以御今之有。
16.能知古始，
17.是謂道紀。

Translated in terse English...
1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.
2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.
3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.
4. These three are inseparable
5. These three objects blended in one.

 

 

A perfect and succinct instruction for meditation

 

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

 

6. Its top is not brilliant.
7. Its bottom is not dim.
8. Its continuance is unnameable.
9. Returned to being formless(state of invisibility),
10. Is called a form of no form.
11. An image of formless,
12. Is called obscure.
13. Greet it cannot see its head.
14. Follow it cannot see its back.
15. Grasp the presence of Tao to see all existing things,
16. Able to understand the ancient origin,
17. It's called the Principles of Tao. 

 

A description of the realization 

Transformation, nonduality, immortality

 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Yes, to the English ear heaven is a more accurate translation than sky in many cases

Accurate has to satisfy both sides, since it is not, I would say it's acceptable. I would put it this way "heaven/sky" in the sentence.

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The words of your choice are very ambiguous to me.

 

Touche ! 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

However, for a non-native English speaker, I had to read it five times to figure it out.

 

Have you got it figured out ?  

 

 

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

That you have understood of what the translation was saying. May I ask you am I right about that?

 

That   ^  looks like you were asking me if you  are right about thinking I understand  the meaning of Ch 1   . 

 

Ummmmm ......    

 

yes .  

. 

[ChiDragon]

On 12/30/2025 at 3:26 PM, steve said:

Is it often that the same character is used twice in a line having different meanings? 

 

Yes, finally, with the help of AI I have found two.
1. 長得長長長長長長長 

2. 一行行行行行
 
@DynamicEquilibrium Please help me to translate these two lines. Thanks!

Edited 11 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Have you got it figured out ? 

However, for a non-native English speaker, I had to read it five times to figure it out.
Do you think that I got it figured out? It wasn't easy!

Edited 11 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, steve said:

A perfect and succinct instruction for meditation

Even you think so too. That was what the Taoist used for the Taoist cannon. 

[Apech]

On 26/12/2025 at 9:44 PM, Cobie said:

 

Classical Chinese was polysemic.

The translator can chose which meaning to use, in order to create coherent and meaningful English .

 

名 (ming2) had various meanings at the time, including ‘morals’.  
In this context imo it means ‘morals’.

 

 

@Cobie that's interesting but surely the whole idea of this chapter is a kind of play off between named and nameless (or unnamed) ... which would make ming = name as more likely.

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

… surely …

imo surely not. 

[Cobie]

 

19 hours ago, steve said:

… Asking me to learn new words …

Exactly. The Emperor in Ancient China, he could by decree command people to learn whatever he wanted them to learn.  He could also change the meanings of characters at will. All of us here on TDB - we are mere plebs; we cannot expect other people to learn new stuff for us. And we have to use the meanings of characters as defined. 
 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

Sinologist Paul Golding came to OD a few times, had a few convos. He was appalled by the UleG book.
“… just think of the degree of cultural chauvinism necessary for someone to suppose that he or she can translate the Daode jing without knowing Chinese.  (... Chinese people don't try to translate Shakespeare without knowing English.)  The only way would be if you had convinced yourself that you already know what the text says. ...”

(Paul Golding, 8 Those Who Don’t Know Speak: Translations of Laozi by People Who Do Not Know Chinese, from 

‘After Confucius: Studies in Early Chinese Philosophy’ https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1wn0qtj.12

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Cobie

[DynamicEquilibrium]

10 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Yes, finally, with the help of AI I have found two.
1. 長得長長長長長長長 

2. 一行行行行行
 
@DynamicEquilibrium Please help me to translate these two lines. Thanks!

The correct translation is 🐉🥷🏻🤣 

Edited 1 hour ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[Cobie]

Ursula le Guin’s DDJ  https://wesleyac.com/dao/refs/leguin1998.pdf 

I see she translates 德 in  道德經 (dao4 de2 jing1) as “power”. Read enough, not for me. 
 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Cobie

[Apech]

47 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

imo surely not. 

why though what is your reasoning?

[Cobie]

 

39 minutes ago, Apech said:

why though what is your reasoning?

I did already post that

 

On 27/12/2025 at 12:10 AM, Cobie said:

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/57074-ddj-ch1/?do=findComment&comment=1059176   

 

 

Edited 33 minutes ago by Cobie

[Apech]

15 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Sinologist Paul Golding came to OD a few times, had a few convos. He was appalled by the UleG book.
“… just think of the degree of cultural chauvinism necessary for someone to suppose that he or she can translate the Daode jing without knowing Chinese.  (... Chinese people don't try to translate Shakespeare without knowing English.)  The only way would be if you had convinced yourself that you already know what the text says. ...”

(Paul Golding, 8 Those Who Don’t Know Speak: Translations of Laozi by People Who Do Not Know Chinese, from 

‘After Confucius: Studies in Early Chinese Philosophy’ https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1wn0qtj.12

 

People study Shakespeare using modern English versions if they tried the original they wouldn’t understand it - same with Chaucer and Beowulf etc.

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

I did already post that

 

 

 

 

 

 

you don’t explain your choice there you just say what it is.  Why is morals better than name(s)?

[Cobie]

 

20 hours ago, steve said:

… it does not help to use words that are never used in my own language and that I don't understand. …

Exactly. And this violates rule 2 for transltions (as by  嚴 復 (yan2 fu4):

信 xìn - true to the meaning
達 dá - easy to understand 
雅 yǎ - preserves the style of the original 

 

Edited 40 minutes ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

7 minutes ago, Cobie said:

... 雅 yǎ - preserves the style of the original 

I find rule 3 the most difficult one to comply with.  In Classical, each character is only one syllable. A whole stanza typically consists of only 16 syllables.   It’s not really possible to convey the meaning in English in 16 syllables. 
 

 

Edited 39 minutes ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

11 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Yes, finally, with the help of AI I have found two.
1. 長得長長長長長長長 

2. 一行行行行行
 
@DynamicEquilibrium Please help me to translate these two lines. Thanks!

@steve

長得長, 長長, 長長, 長長 

長1(zhabg): to grow 

長2(chang): long in length 

長3(chang): long in time 

長1得長2(zhang de chang): It grows long

長3長2(chang chang): always long 

長3長1(chang zhang): always growing 

長3長2: always long 

 

一行行, 行行行

Yi hang xing, hang hang xing

行1(hang): occupation 

行2(xing): successful; OK

If one occupation is successful, then all occupations will be successful.

 

 

 

 

Edited just now by ChiDragon