everything is perfect...?

[stirling]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

not needed since you come off as seemingly knowing everything from A-Z...

 

Uh.... thanks? Your vague allusions make it hard to have a conversation. This looks like a dead end. 

 

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

 not the same when or if written off as or bound in illusion.  

 

I'll revise my answer to this one:

 

Without a more clear answer, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Keith108 said:

Ah well, the thread has been contributed to. My work here is finished. 

 

I'm out too. If OB can't be bothered, neither can I.

[old3bob]

53 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Did you mean to say ‘does not’?

 

right, thanks

[Lairg]

"everything is perfect"

 

From the perspective of The Source of All, that seems to be correct.

 

The TSoA seems to generate Existence in order to experience. 

 

As far as I can detect, dark experiences are useful as light experiences. 

 

Presumably the intelligences bound up in the dark experiences are learning by doing

 

If so, humans may be better to stand above their human experiences, as an adult stands above the tantrums of a child

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:12 AM by Lairg

[forestofclarity]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

and of course Advaita Vedanta is only one of the many schools that range from A-Z in Hinduism (so to speak) and thus does  represent all of Hinduism as some seem to take for granted.

 

 

That's cool because... you know... everything is perfect! 

[stirling]

...and I change my mind. Why abandon such a rich topic when there is so much LEARNING TO BE DONE! 

 

This idea: The world is perfect - comes at us from ALL sides of the "Eastern" spiritual traditions. 

 

Quote

The actual proof of this Unborn which perfectly manages [everything] is that, as you’re all turned this way listening to me talk, if out back there’s the cawing of crows, the chirping of sparrows or the rustling of the wind, even though you’re not deliberately trying to hear each of these sounds, you recognize and distinguish each one. The voices of the crows and sparrows, the rustling of the wind—you hear them without making any mistake about them, and that’s what’s called hearing with the Unborn. In this way, all things are perfectly managed with the Unborn. This is the actual proof of the Unborn. Conclusively realize that what’s unborn and marvelously illuminating is truly the Buddha Mind.- Bankei

 

Quote

The one who has fully investigated himself, the one
who has come to Understand, will never try to inter-
fere with the play of Consciousness.- Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

Quote

That is perfect. This is perfect. Perfect comes from
Perfect. Take Perfect from Perfect. and the remainder
is Perfect." - Isha Upanishad

 

Quote

The Understanding is perfect as vast space is
perfect, where nothing is lacking and nothing is in
excess. - Seng-Tsan

 

Quote

This dream you call the world is not the problem;
your problem is that you like certain parts of the
dream and dislike others. Once you have seen the
dream as a dream, you have done all that needs to
be done. - Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

Quote

Love itself describes its own perfection. Be speechless and listen. - Rumi

 

OldBob, my friend, I am sorry that your weary eyes make you suffer over the chaos of the world, but there IS something else under that suffering that can be seen at the same time, that has always been there.    _/\_

[steve]

12 hours ago, Keith108 said:

Interestingly, there is a Christian parallel to this in the story of Adam and Eve. They fall from heaven after eating an apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Maybe someone more versed in biblical Christianity can correct me on that, or provide some context. I just found it interesting that the fall from heaven was caused by a tree named after dualistic thinking.  

 

I love this angle!

 

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

For Roman Catholics, the moral law (what is good or evil) has been  set by God. This story is about obedience to God.

 

I appreciate the orthodox version but always enjoy finding connections between traditions. For me the meaning is not in the text, it’s in the reader. 

[old3bob]

 

the working of karma is perfect but karma itself veils the perfect....

 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

...and I change my mind. Why abandon such a rich topic when there is so much LEARNING TO BE DONE! 

 

This idea: The world is perfect - comes at us from ALL sides of the "Eastern" spiritual traditions. 

 

OldBob, my friend, I am sorry that your weary eyes make you suffer over the chaos of the world, but there IS something else under that suffering that can be seen at the same time, that has always been there.    _/\_

 

 

Thanks, btw who doesn't suffer in one way or another over the adharmic or evil in the world including self realized saints and masters?  (that feel for their students and all beings)

Edited yesterday at 04:46 AM by old3bob

[bradley]

well what does perfect really mean anyway. and when is something imperfect?  bit of a paradox if you think about it deeply, as perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, bradley said:

well what does perfect really mean anyway. and when is something imperfect?  bit of a paradox if you think about it deeply, as perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

 

true from just  or only varying human perspectives,  

and I'd say that if only varying human perspectives were possible then we'd be SOL to ever know, be satisfied, and rest in a greater truth and beingness/source that is beyond change, corruption, ups and downs, etc.. 

Edited yesterday at 10:27 AM by old3bob

[J.Finder]

To me, the “perfect” feels like something potential - already present, but hidden and waiting to be recognized. That’s why I resonate with the Buddhist idea of Buddha-nature: every being has it, yet it needs to be recognized through walking the path and doing inner work. I’m not great with precise terminology ....  I’m speaking from  personal observations

..as for the outer world  - saṃsara, suffering, yes. From that angle, it’s hard to talk about perfection. But the image of the lotus comes to mind. Wandering in saṃsara itself is suffering, yet truly accepting this seems to awaken a deeper aspiration - not only to ease one’s own suffering, but that of others as well.... just my humble view....
 

and karma, too....
When I first began studying it more deeply, I realized it’s not an excuse for passivity, but simply an understanding that what we experience arises from causes and conditions. In the same way, working on ourselves creates the causes and conditions for recognizing and living that very “perfect” we’re talking about.

In general, I think practice is what ultimately matters, to reach the awareness of the things mentioned by the masters.

[Neirong]

On 11.12.2025 at 4:28 PM, old3bob said:

Some eastern ways  and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect....

 

I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being.  It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others  overcome same.   Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being.

Nothing is perfect, but that does not mean perfection does not exist - it exists as a quality at a pretty high level in the vishudha chakra.

That said, the world is fair, and suffering is necessary and is good for you. 

You may feel sharp pain when putting your hand on fire, but if you do not feel that, you would just burn your hand crisp.
Imagine if eating fast food slop would not cause detrimental health issues and obesity? Most would chug on sugary chemical junk.
Similarly, lots of checks exist to prevent humans from dying stupidly (self-preservation instincts) and to prevent humanity from dying (reproduction instinct); sex being pleasurable itself is a work of a system, to preserve the species as a whole.

Suffering mostly comes from a lack of control and presence; unawakened beings naturally suffer; once you awaken, suffering ceases to exist. The difference is like the difference between an NPC and a player: a player won't even suffer much if his character dies. He will just make a new one.

[liminal_luke]

The world is entirely perfect and complete, with the exception of this thread.

[steve]

14 hours ago, Lairg said:

As far as I can detect, dark experiences are useful as light experiences. 

 

This reminds me of a favorite pith instruction from Anthony Demello - 

'Pleasant experiences make life delightful, painful experiences are opportunities for growth.'

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

The world is entirely perfect and complete, with the exception of this thread.

 

and certain brands of beer...but not Modelo imo.

[old3bob]

Why is Lord Shiva called Neelkanth?

During the churning of the cosmic ocean (Samudra Manthan), a deadly poison known as Halahala emerged, powerful enough to destroy the universe. To protect all of creation, Shiva selflessly consumed the poison, holding it in his throat. His neck turned blue from its impact, earning him the name Neelkanth, the one with the blue throat.

 

[SodaChanh]

On 11.12.2025 at 2:28 PM, old3bob said:

 

Some eastern ways  and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect....

 

Not sure what perfect really means and what everything means either?

 

Depends on context. Whether they are speaking from Awareness and then "everything is perfect" could be a pointing out.

The conceptual mind apprehending on the meaning, then going with it, creating a story about how perfect it is or how some things are not perfect etc is not really what it it is about.

 

I would just abide in pure awareness and letting everything that comes up be. Thoughts, emotions etc. Let the energy run out of fuel.

Coming to a conclusion about the ineffeable is not possible. Because the ineffeable cannot be put in a box.

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

The conceptual mind apprehending on the meaning, then going with it, creating a story about how perfect it is or how some things are not perfect etc is not really what it it is about.

 

Is this how religion started?

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Is this how religion started?

 

By some alien accounts this is the only planet with religion

 

The Sumerian texts indicate that the Anunnaki bred the humans as slaves and taught the humans to worship/workshop for them

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Is this how religion started?

 

regardless if we are the only planet with religion or not  and if one one wants to believe Zachariah Sitchen  or not  , who cant even read the original documents he 'translates' ,  ( and I fail to see how that answers your question or helps you in any way    ) ....

 

It is thought it was a response to the need of early humans  seeking meaning   to observations and personal and shared experiences. The first signs seem to be burial rituals that enclosed artifacts . Then we evidence of animism and shamanism .  Then there seems an organisation and structure of polytheism   and later 'organised religion'   were gods , stories , ancestral heroes , myths and social function and law * .   It can be seen this parallels the development of human society and is linked in with  the need to explain 'how the world works' , how communities are bonded  and how we cope with the issue  of death  .

 

* In many cases the word we translate into 'religion' from other older languages  is 'law' or a similar idea .  Judaism (Halaka)  and  actually Judaeo-Christian religion's fundamental teaching is encapsulated in 10 laws . A lot of the Qur'an is about law ( sharia )   and indigenous Aboriginal religions certainly link the two .

 

Spoiler

 

In Aboriginal traditions, religion and law are inseparable; "The Law" (often called "Dreaming") isn't just rules but the spiritual framework defining life, land connection, kinship, and obligations, with sacred sites and stories embedding these eternal laws, meaning breaking them is both a legal and spiritual offense, rooted in the ancestral past and demanding stewardship of the land as a core religious duty. 

 

 

Its at the root of the most ancient and the  most modern 'organised' religions . 

Edited 13 hours ago by Nungali

[stirling]

On 12/12/2025 at 8:44 PM, old3bob said:

 

Thanks, btw who doesn't suffer in one way or another over the adharmic or evil in the world including self realized saints and masters?  (that feel for their students and all beings)

Masters only suffer in the realization that there is suffering.

[Lairg]

10 minutes ago, stirling said:

Masters only suffer in the realization that there is suffering.

 

Unless they have let the wrong people into their group energy field

 

 

[cake1234566]

On 12/11/2025 at 9:28 PM, old3bob said:

 

Some eastern ways  and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect....

 

I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being.  It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others  overcome same.   Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being.

 

I think that this post is an excellent point about incorrect practice especially as it relates to western students

When "everything is perfect" is taken on faith rather than a culmination of practice, it creates a sort of deluded toxic positivity mindset where people can actually start to feel guilt from the fact that they experience suffering

Realizing the ground nature of reality is inherently without flaw (eventually) is a pretty common stage in most religions, but as most intellectualized reports of stages of practice, it can super easily taken the wrong way if it gets cargo cult'd

[zerostao]

On 12/12/2025 at 10:39 PM, old3bob said:

 

the working of karma is perfect but karma itself veils the perfect....

 

 

Sometime it is a very thin veil.

Other times it is manifested in perfect irony.