The practice of Neidan(內丹)

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Substance is a better word to use especially in the context of Neidan.  It is more accurate although of course one needs to be crystal clear about what exactly a substance is in this context.

I can go along with that. BTW The substance of Yuen Jing is living in the structure of the human body. What do you think about that? 

The prenatal Jing, 元精, was passed on from the parents. What do you think about that?

Edited 16 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I am going to ask Gemini AI in Chinese. 

气功和內丹是否注重呼吸？

Is both Qigong and Neidan emphasized in breathing? Let's see what answer it will give us. Please keep an open minded with this investigation task. 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

简单来说：是的，呼吸是气功与内丹修炼中极其核心的部分。
在传统文化中，呼吸常被称为“调息”，与“调身”（姿势）和“调心”（意念）并列为修炼的三大要素。不过，气功与内丹在对待呼吸的深度和目的上有所不同。

[ChiDragon]

气功中的呼吸（基础与功力）
在气功（尤其是健身气功）中，呼吸主要起着调节生理状态和引动气血的作用。

1. 气功中的呼吸（基础与功力）
在气功（尤其是健身气功）中，呼吸主要起着调节生理状态和引动气血的作用。
常用方式： 主要是腹式呼吸（顺呼吸或逆呼吸）。要求做到“深、长、细、匀、悠”。
作用： * 增加氧气交换，按摩内脏。
通过呼吸的频率来调节神经系统（如放松或提神）。
以息导气： 所谓“意到气到”，呼吸往往作为一种动力，配合动作带动体内的能量感。

Edited 16 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

2. 内丹中的呼吸（进火与化机）
内丹术（道家修炼的核心）对呼吸的看法更为深奥，将其视为**“风”**（动力源）。
武火与文火： 内丹通过呼吸的强度来控制体温和能量转化的速度。强力的呼吸称为“武火”，细微的呼吸称为“文火”。
胎息： 这是内丹修炼的高级境界。修炼者追求脱离口鼻呼吸，达到一种像胎儿在母体中那样、极其微弱甚至感知不到的内部循环状态。
真息： 内丹强调“真人之息以踵”，认为普通的肺部呼吸只是“凡息”，真正的能量运化（真息）是随着元气的升降而产生的，呼吸最终要服务于精、气、神的凝练。

[Nintendao]

11 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

It is impossible to do so. It is because each teach will create more deviations. That is why there are so many styles of Taijiquan. I practiced the Yang style Taiji for many years, I had changed some of the moves to fit myself. Does it affect my health? NO! Deviations are only cosmetic. Of course, I would only breathe with my nose but not my mouth. 

 

PS

Look at Cheng Man Ching. He learnt the Yang style Taiji from a great master. However, he created his own style and called The Cheng Man Ching. The movements in his style are so awkward and hard to remember.  That is a big deviation. Don't you think? FYI It still has the same heath effect of Taijiquan. To tell you the truth, I hated his style.

 

 

True story but in neidan "deviation" refers to qi sickness not just style variations. Basically people do the practice wrong or too aggressively and get injured or go insane.

 

 

[cake1234566]

Ah i think I see the mismatch, chidragon have you experienced and do you believe in energetic phenomena?
Its pretty much the foundation of neidan, the belief through experience that there are three energetic treasures in the human body being jing, qi, and shen
Every neidan classic details the methods of working with and transforming these three non-physical substances and the non-physical effects that begin to be perceived that indicate correct practice
I think most qigong can be "clinical" as in completely attributed to the physical body like you describe, but neidan specifically requires the philosophical backing of an energetic system, otherwise you wouldn't have anything to transform

What you're talking about is definitely interesting, it just isn't neidan as is practiced by people from the lineages here such as dragons gate, wuliupai, or the greater quanzhen tradition all of which are primary sources

[DynamicEquilibrium]

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The phrases are just paradoxical statements that are very common in Chinese classic. What it is trying to say was:
It was referring to Jing, Chi, Shen. Yes, they are the three treasuries imagined by the Taoist. However, they are not all shapeless. For example, yuen Jing(精) was defined as the prenatal Jing that is the basic unit comprises the human body. In modern terms, what is the basic unit that makes up the human body? Don't think that the body cell is analogous to the prenatal Jing? The best way to express 元精is by calling it a substance(物資).  The body cell can be seen under a microscope, hence it is can be defined as 有形 material substances. However, it is invisible to the eyes of the ancient Taoist. It is because they knew it exist without a microscope.

元氣 and 元神 are shapeless is because they are just vital forces that initially drive the action of the human body.
 

 

 Asked about the main caracteristic of Yuan jing according to Neidan litterature (in chinese), AI came with this result: 'Yuan Jing represents the primordial, formless energetic essence that existed before physical manifestation.'

 

Anything related to the term 'energy' belong to the subject of physics, in this case physics of the living isn't it? 

 

For the sake of sharing ideas, in what i practice we emphasize the systemic nature of the three treasures, so difficult to separate from each others and from the wider system they are integrated with: 

 

'1. 練形化精 "Refining Form to Transform it into Essence" 

The expected effects at this stage are primarily physiological: the organs, tissues, and body systems (immune, nervous, respiratory, endocrine, circulatory, digestive...) are strengthened, their functions improved, etc. 

 

2. 練精化氣 "Refining Essence to Transform it into Qi" 

From the results obtained in the previous stage, the practice becomes more refined. The expected effect at this stage is an improvement in the organism's energy transformation functions: less consuming of energy for better results.

 

3. 練氣化神 "Refining Qi to Transform it into Shen" 

The character 神 Shen is often translated as "Spirit." At this stage, it becomes possible to change one's own attitude and state of mind. 

 

When we understands this process that goes against the natural course by starting from the body to reach the spirit, we also understands that different 神 Shen mean different individuals. 

 

Following the natural course, different 神 Shen produce different ways of thinking, of listening, of looking, of perceiving, of feeling, of undertanding... different points of view about oneself, things, others and the world. 

From there, different individuals will have different 氣 Qi ("energetic" states) which will create different 精 Jing (physiological states) which themselves will give different forms 形 Xing. 

 

These forms are the gestures, behaviors, postures, human relationships, speech, habits of a particular individual that together create hers or his way of living. 

 

4. 化神還虛  

5. 還虛入道 

6. 復歸自然 
...'

 

Of course not enough to render the complete picture according to this lineage's peculiar interpretation. 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, cake1234566 said:

Ah i think I see the mismatch, chidragon have you experienced and do you believe in energetic phenomena?

Its pretty much the foundation of neidan, the belief through experience that there are three energetic treasures in the human body being jing, qi, and shen

Every neidan classic details the methods of working with and transforming these three non-physical substances and the non-physical effects that begin to be perceived that indicate correct practice

Yes, there is a mismatch here. I do experienced the physical body energy developed from the practice in the breathing exercise. I do believe in the saying of transformation of the three virtual treasures. It is because just like you said. They are non-physical substances that was imagined by the ancient Taoist. Then, they came up with the idea of Neidan. It was known that Neidan transform these three non-physical substances to maintain the life of the human body. However, it was done in a more aggressive manner to vigorize the human body. People may claim that they do Neidan differently and have the same effective result. I will leave it at that.   

[Antares]

15 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

How teacher avoids to create dependent relationships with the learners and prevent any 'cultish' possible deviations in such system? 

Well, there are different approaches to it. WLP is the school where there are closer relationships, but there are other approaches as well. Southern schools require closer relationships, while in northern ones it is not like that — the student receives the method and gets in touch with a teacher sometimes, so it is more open to the public, but the student is less dependent on the teacher. This is because in Southern methods there is a much bigger chance of deviations, as Ming work is involved from the very beginning;  the more Ming one has, the greater the chance of deviations

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Nintendao said:

True story but in neidan "deviation" refers to qi sickness not just style variations. Basically people do the practice wrong or too aggressively and get injured or go insane.

Yes, I have heard about the deviation refers to qi sickness. I had mention the breathing problem in my PPD. I don't know if that is what they are referring to as "qi sickness". It is in my PPD post of "The ultimate method of breathing". 

 

Anyway, my breathing is good. I don't think I could produce this qi sickness or go insane.

 

[Antares]

15 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

It is because each teach will create more deviations. That is why there are so many styles of Taijiquan. I practiced the Yang style Taiji for many years, I had changed some of the moves to fit myself. Does it affect my health? NO!

 

This is like you say because what you do is mostly fitness, no more than that. Of course, there is more freedom in fitness 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

11 minutes ago, Antares said:

Well, there are different approaches to it. WLP is the school where there are closer relationships, but there are other approaches as well. Southern schools require closer relationships, while in northern ones it is not like that — the student receives the method and gets in touch with a teacher sometimes, so it is more open to the public, but the student is less dependent on the teacher. This is because in Southern methods there is a much bigger chance of deviations, as Ming work is involved from the very beginning;  the more Ming one has, the greater the chance of deviations

Thank you. 

There are similarities with my own experience: Almost daily one on one interactions with the teacher, from day one autonomy was clearly set as one of the goals. 

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Asked about the main caracteristic of Yuan jing according to Neidan litterature (in chinese), AI came with this result: 'Yuan Jing represents the primordial, formless energetic essence that existed before physical manifestation.'

Thanks for your input. As I have said before, it is better to ask AI in Chinese. If you ask AI in English, you will get a translation with some misleading information in it. I have the Chinese version from Gemini before you. I just didn't have the time to translate it yet. In this case, you might be interested to compare my translation with yours.

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

This is like you say because what you do is mostly fitness, no more than that. Of course, there is more freedom in fitness 

I didn't know Taiji was considered fitness.

[Apech]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I can go along with that. BTW The substance of Yuen Jing is living in the structure of the human body. What do you think about that? 

The prenatal Jing, 元精, was passed on from the parents. What do you think about that?

I would say that jing is what makes the body a living organism rather than a collection of chemicals.

 

Jing is passed on from parents because conception is an energetic event and not just a bio- chemical one.  
 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

I would say that jing is what makes the body a living organism rather than a collection of chemicals.

 

Jing is passed on from parents because conception is an energetic event and not just a bio- chemical one.  
 

I agree with the former. Jing is getting close to be the body cell.

The latter description is the conception of the sperm united with the egg is not a bio-chemical one? What do you mean by energetic event?

[DynamicEquilibrium]

31 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Thanks for your input. As I have said before, it is better to ask AI in Chinese. If you ask AI in English, you will get a translation with some misleading information in it. I have the Chinese version from Gemini before you. I just didn't have the time to translate it yet. In this case, you might be interested to compare my translation with yours.

Not my translation, AI's one. 

Integration of opposites to find a point from which 'we' could discuss, research, study and learn something about common principles is a good idea indeed ! 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

I agree with the former. Jing is getting close to be the body cell.

The latter description is the conception of the sperm united with the egg is not a bio-chemical one? What do you mean by energetic event?

That’s a good question.  I agree it’s a vague term which needs a bit of elaboration.  What I think is that when a baby is conceived there is an interaction between the parents above and beyond the physical coupling.  That is there is a mental, emotional and spiritual connection between the two which energizes and imprints on the fertilized egg.  This gives the jing component to the new being determining its health and longevity etc.

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

23 hours ago, 29Gathering said:

 

I asked AI how to become a master at this. It's sources were random threads on reddit, thedaobums and healingtaousa. 

“Step 2: Seek Qualified Lineage Teacher”

 

This was good advice tho 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

@ChiDragon do you believe in chi?

[MIchael80]

7 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

@ChiDragon do you believe in chi?

I would frame it a little differently (but understand your point, would just say it is not a believe ....more like have you experienced chi and how it flows through the meridians and is distinct from physical matter? Same with jing? 

 

Yuanqi and jing are even more subtle...

Edited 6 hours ago by MIchael80

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

... energetic event?

 

Possibly it"s being confused with the Christian concept that living requires a soul to animate the material body. 

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Cobie

[cake1234566]

I think what's being referred to is that in certain daoist traditions the root of the energetic treasures is said to be from the parents rather than anything christian
for example from  

重陽真人金關玉鎖訣
"Perfected Chongyang also commented, “Nothing is ever separated from yin and yang; what lives must borrow vital essence from the father and blood from the mother. These two substances are the root of the body. All of the people of today who practice cultivation do not take care of their father’s essence and their mother’s blood" (translated by komjathy)

[Nintendao]

Yup the truly oldschool can still receive the goods directly from the gods. And yes caring for ones ancestors can be a big part of that. Why do you think Lao Tsu's whole deal was about growing the dé? It wasn't until around a thousand years ago when TCM became advanced to where scholars cross-referenced the Yijing with the Zangfu (not entirely unlike something the AI might pull..) and discovered a way to survive sneaking into the Forbidden Kingdom.

 

Dragons are even older than all that. When you're a dragon, all you really need is breathe 

Edited 4 hours ago by Nintendao