Is the MCO Real? (Split from Benebell Wen on the Microcosmic Orbit)

[ChiDragon]

On 10/13/2025 at 12:48 PM, Sahaja said:

While I am a relative beginner at this, in my understanding the MCO is not a breath exercise. It’s moving actual substances through the du and the ren with internal pressure  to stimulate the  brain to replenish and change the body. To do this you need to have accumulated a sufficient supply of these substances, built the mechanism to move them and opened the transport network enough to carry them.  I didn’t hear any reference to this foundational work. 

MCO stands for Microcosmic orbit(小周天) and Macrocosmic orbit(大周天). If it is not a breathing exercise, then, there would be no such thing as MCO. It would be a myth to think that moving substances through the Du and the Ren meridians. However, the old concept of MCO was only a legendary concept was passed down from century to century. The same old story was always repeated with no proof. 

There are no living reference. It was only told by the word of mouth. The story comes out differently each time depends on who told it. I had challenged these ideas about MCO on a Chinese Qigong site. So far, no one has taken the challenge with contradiction but just took it silently. I will go find my post and place it here with translation. 

Edited 8 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Sanity Check]

I think some athletes develop MCO naturally without any meditation or training.

 

MCO is naturally the most efficient way to move energy through the body.

 

And so developing a decent amount of athleticism will naturally translate to developing MCO in some cases.

[ChiDragon]

I can't find my post on the other site. 
Let me try to explain it here. BTW The Microcosmic orbit must be practiced before the Macrocosmic orbit. Here is how I would like to believe it. Please keep in mind the phrase of "chi sinken to the dantian(氣沈丹田).

We all knew that the Ren(任)meridian is in front of the body and the Du(督) meridian is in the back of the body. The Ren meridian runs through the LDT and connect to the Ren meridian. However,  if one cannot breathe deep down to the LDT, then, let's assume that there is a gap between the two meridians. The idea of connecting the two meridians was to sink chi to the LDT. To close the gap is by practice breathing until the gap was closed. The gap was considered to be closed is when 氣, chi(breath), was sunk deep into the dantian. As soon chi hits the bottom of the LDT, it was said that the realm of Microcosmic orbit has been accomplished. The blockage of the two meridians has been cleared and connected. Hereinafter, continuing with the deep breathing, the chi will be able to flow through both meridians. At this stage, it was said that the Macrocosmic orbit has been accomplished. 

This is the only logical explanation that I can come up with to satisfy my curiosity.  Otherwise, unless, someone else could come up with something to convince everybody.

Edited 17 hours ago by ChiDragon

[forestofclarity]

14 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

It was only told by the word of mouth.

 

People either have experienced the subtle body or they haven't.

 

If you have first hand experience of it, it is undeniable.

 

If you haven't, it sounds inconceivable because it conflicts with the teachings of modern scientific materialism (which is actually based on incomplete Newtonian physics and is on its way out). It is sort of like trying to explain color to someone who has never seen any. 

 

[Forestgreen]

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 It would be a myth to think that moving substances through the Du and the Ren meridians. 

It feels like a substance, but most likely is not. Substances can be measured, so ...

(and in neudan it is not the Du and Ren channels)

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Yes

[Sanity Check]

Don't see why it wouldn't be.

Edited yesterday at 04:47 AM by Sanity Check

[Forestgreen]

Well this is the Bums, so someone will add "spiritual " or "sub-atomic" to the term substance, and suddenly balance will be restored to the Force while missing the point of what ChiDragon and I posted entirely.

[Gerard]

On 14/10/2025 at 7:43 AM, ChiDragon said:

It would be a myth to think that moving substances through the Du and the Ren meridians.

The whole thing is a "scam" using common terminology.

 

Qi is constantly moving across a vast network of meridians due to the action of the Wu Xing (Five Forces/Elements/Agents). There is no need to 'move' anything as things are already in motion. A different story is blocked meridian flow, and to correct that forget about breathing and still meditation as a sole method, they won't do jack. For that you need to do serious Daoyin exercises and IMA work; loosening joints will open blocked meridians. 

[forestofclarity]

11 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Well this is the Bums, so someone will add "spiritual " or "sub-atomic" to the term substance, and suddenly balance will be restored to the Force while missing the point of what ChiDragon and I posted entirely.

 

Well, I think from both a Vedic/Tantric point of view and a Daoist point of view, the subtle body is composed of substances. For instance, you have tanmatras which are subtle elements that are the underlying makeup of physical elements. You also have citta for mind stuff, and prana for a less subtle form of energy. I think Daoists have a similar POV based on past conversations here. 

 

But then I thought better of it. 

 

[Apech]

Substance literally means what stands under ... so for instance the substance of a table might be wood.  So the wood is more 'basic' or underlying in the sense that if there were no wood there would be no table (provided it is a wooden one).  In the case of internal alchemy the substance(s) are what lies behind appearance.  The deeper you go the more 'real' you get ... in the sense of being without dependence on anything beneath.  

 

I think the question 'is the MCO real' is the wrong one.  It would be better to ask 'does it work?' or 'what does it do?' or perhaps 'how do you make it work' but this question gives rise to the general question 'can you make it work or does it just happen'.

 

Most if not all energy exercises/techniques or practices simply replicate intentionally things that happen naturally.  So a certain breathing practice if done with conscious will simply replicates something that would arise naturally if the circumstances arise.  For instance vase breathing, abdominal breathing, embryonic breathing and so on are all like this (in my experience).  I would put the MCO in the same category.  The danger in practicing without first achieving deep meditational states is that you replace the genuine cycling of energy with an imagined substitute which does not and cannot hit the spot so to speak.  But equally you have to gain some familiarity with the subtle body and its workings in order to progress and so as you absorb intellectually the principles of the working of the subtle body this in itself stimulates it into action. 

 

 

[Forestgreen]

2 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 subtle elements that are the underlying makeup of physical elements. 

Yes, underlying. I googled substance, and two english dictionaries defined substance as matter (more or less). So what can be felt is not a substance, unless there is some kind of proof supporting that. It might be called energy, because that term has more meanings. 

 

I like "sensation", it cuts out the crap. It can be sensed. 

When Water is reversed, it can be sensed as if it was a substance. 

 

Are the subtle elements substances? I would say no. Forces is the closest term I can think of. Forces that lies behind appearances. Forces that can be sensed. 

 

I'm not sure how daoist traditions handle this, but buddhist tradition have struggled with dhammas, kalapas, the atomic theory, and the emptiness of substance. 

 

Just for the sake of communication,  I would separate the meaning of "substance" from "substance of the energy body".

[Forestgreen]

9 hours ago, Gerard said:

The whole thing is a "scam" using common terminology.

I would disagree with that.

9 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

Qi is constantly moving across a vast network of meridians due to the action of the Wu Xing (Five Forces/Elements/Agents).

Yes. And that kind of qi is not what the MCO is about (see next comment).

9 hours ago, Gerard said:

There is no need to 'move' anything as things are already in motion. A different story is blocked meridian flow, and to correct that forget about breathing and still meditation as a sole method, they won't do jack. For that you need to do serious Daoyin exercises and 

Again, not what the MCO within the context of neidan is about.

 

My opinion (I might be biased and totally wrong here) is that the qigong/neigong varieties often are contrieved methods.  My opinion is based on the method I practice, where most of the energetic movements and other sensations arise as a result of proper practice. 

[jgd]

If you look at du and ren from the perspective of chinese medicine, there is no way mco is happening without specific training. Ren mai channel doesnt flow down by itself

[Cobie]

 

 

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

… Forces that lies behind appearances. …

Different traditions have different words. Some of the words I’ve heard of: 

prana; qi; fengshui (wind & water); breath; ruach; aether/quitessence; pneuma; psyche; anima; spirit; soul; life force; vital energy; energy.

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Cobie

[SodaChanh]

I could be wrong but dzogchen masters seem to have the MCO active and the only thing they are doing is abiding in the view. 

 

So I guess all this doing is not needed and we can finally relax after many years of doing this and that. 

[Gerard]

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

12 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

I would disagree with that.

To answer that and what you wrote below:

 

You do what I do and MCO not only becomes dust in the wind but the last of your concerns.

 

As I always state in these matters:

 

Find out for yourself.

[Nungali]

What seems to be behind this issue ... on the deeper level , is what people consider  'real '  . 

 

When dealing with systems based on an older world view , it can be confusing to examine it with concepts from the 'modern western' view . 

 

What constitutes 'reality'  is a major philosophical difference . 

[forestofclarity]

So I listened to Robert Coons wax on this, and he states that there are 4 major types of MCOs:

 

1. Dao Yin, usually involving a lot of intention, breathing, visualization.

2. Qigong, with less intention.

3. Neidan, with no intention.

4. Martial arts, which ends up opening it with postures/movement. 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

Substance literally means what stands under ... so for instance the substance of a table might be wood.

Isn't gas a substance? For example, oxygen is a chemical element, thus it is a substance stands by itself and moves in the blood. It is also a measurable substance.

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

I think the question 'is the MCO real' is the wrong one.  It would be better to ask 'does it work?' or 'what does it do?' or perhaps 'how do you make it work' but this question gives rise to the general question 'can you make it work or does it just happen'.

Yes. the question may be asked in a different way!
1. Does it work?
If it works, then, isn't it real? 

2. What does it do?
It makes the body healthy and strong with a tremendous of energy.

3. How do you make it work?

In the past, the accomplishment was understood by alchemy involved with the three treasures, 精氣神(Jing Chi Shen). 

 

4. Can you make it work?

Yes, One has to be practiced it diligently to make it work.

 

5. Does it just happens?

No, if so, then, everyone is in the same mode. Hence, no practice was needed and there would be nothing to be called such as MCO.

[Gerard]

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

2. What does it do?
It makes the body healthy and strong with a tremendous of energy.

Really? No, not really.

 

This does:

 

"The earth is very thick. Lowly, below all else, it bears everything and nurtures all beings. It can bear even the weight of the great mountains, and it can endure even the erosive force of great waters. It tolerates being pierced by plants and trees, and it submits to the tread of birds and beasts. It does not mind being cheapened by pollution."

 

Awakening to the Tao (Liu I-ming)

 

Earth corresponds to Spleen and Stomach. A strong and healthy Earth will result in developing strong limbs. This is gong fu.

 

For example:

 

 

He Jinghan's channel is LITTERED with PRACTICAL WISDOM.

 

All his drills will give you a STRONG EARTH, the key to good health and longevity. TCM and Ancient Chinese (Taoist) wisdom.

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Gerard

[Apech]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Isn't gas a substance? For example, oxygen is a chemical element, thus it is a substance stands by itself and moves in the blood. It is also a measurable substance.

gas is a phase of matter , but yes oxygen is a substance - what point are you making?

[Apech]

6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes. the question may be asked in a different way!
1. Does it work?
If it works, then, isn't it real? 

2. What does it do?
It makes the body healthy and strong with a tremendous of energy.

3. How do you make it work?

In the past, the accomplishment was understood by alchemy involved with the three treasures, 精氣神(Jing Chi Shen). 

 

4. Can you make it work?

Yes, One has to be practiced it diligently to make it work.

 

5. Does it just happens?

No, if so, then, everyone is in the same mode. Hence, no practice was needed and there would be nothing to be called such as MCO.

Depends what you mean by real I suppose.

 

why do you put the three treasures in the past ?